[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[Joy Lannister]

Where did you read that quote Grell? If he really said that the man has gone bananas and is totally delusional. He thinks all those reviews come from trolls? He really thinks a few people created multiple accounts on which they bought something and then spammed the Amazon review section? Someone inside his circle needs to set him straight. And yes George, you have a lot of detractors, but they still wanted to love your book.

On his Not A Blog (in the comments of his "I'm Number Two" post). It's the second time someone has tried to refer him to the Amazon reviews. And it's the second time he dismisses them. The first time it was a few weeks ago, when the book first came out, so he probably could have thought that those reviews come from trolls and detractors. But now? Almost every review comes from a verified purchaser. Does GRRM think that there's some great conspiracy at work? Sure, there are some negative (and also positive) 'reviews' that are just worthless, but there are many well-constructed 4, 3 and 2-stars reviews that explain very well why they're dissatisfied with the book. I think he should pay attention to those and stop being so dismissive of criticism.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Where did you read that quote Grell? If he really said that the man has gone bananas and is totally delusional. He thinks all those reviews come from trolls? He really thinks a few people created multiple accounts on which they bought something and then spammed the Amazon review section? Someone inside his circle needs to set him straight. And yes George, you have a lot of detractors, but they still wanted to love your book.

Well TBH, there is a chance that some are actually trolls, are all of them, absolutely not. The one thing I do agree with is something being popular doesn't mean it's any good. The last Pirates of The Caribbean movie is making a ton of money right now but most of the people i have heard, myself included, didn't really enjoy it too much.

I haven't read any of the amazon reveiws, are most of them stuff like "This and this was great, but this sucked' kinda stuff? Cause that's not really trolling.

[Knurk]

Most reviews are well constructed criticisms, there isn't much trolling going around there. I already had a discussion on Winter-is-Coming why the Amazonratings shouldn't be dismissed, but it really sickens me George AGAIN calls me a troll for posting a bad review.

He's claiming internetanonimity brings out the worst in people, but does he really expect people at a signing are going to say straight in his face: "Hey Georgie, your book sucked and I don't want your autograph!"

[Joy Lannister]

Well TBH, there is a chance that some are actually trolls, are all of them, absolutely not. The one thing I do agree with is something being popular doesn't mean it's any good. The last Pirates of The Caribbean movie is making a ton of money right now but most of the people i have heard, myself included, didn't really enjoy it too much.

I haven't read any of the amazon reveiws, are most of them stuff like "This and this was great, but this sucked' kinda stuff? Cause that's not really trolling.

There are, of course, other factors against Amazon. I mean, Twilight is a 4.1 stars book there and, as much as I'm dissatisfied with Dance, that's just an insult. But I'm not sure exactly how GRRM's readers have made him come to the conclusion that their criticism can be dismissed.

Though, of course, it should be noted that very, very few people close to GRRM are willing to criticize him in his face. Actually, there -aren't any readers who are willing to argue with him or defend their positions. Which I see, frankly, as uncomfortable - arguing with the author himself. That's why readers usually expect their opinions in places like Amazon to be taken seriously.

[jellydonut]

On the one hand, my anticipation is huge.

On the other hand, my anticipation is tempered by the knowledge that it might be five or six years away.

You can ask me again when we get closer to it. :smug:

[Jutah the Juggler]

I think the bloom is off the rose at this point. I will still eagerly read the next book, but the sense of anticipation after the last 2 isn't nearly as high. I don't think the series is going to reach the heights of A Storm of Swords again.

[tipopellet]

Where did you read that quote Grell? If he really said that the man has gone bananas and is totally delusional. He thinks all those reviews come from trolls? He really thinks a few people created multiple accounts on which they bought something and then spammed the Amazon review section?

There are reviewers that are lets say over-emotional in their grades but there are just as many senseless 5 stars "reviews" that don't say anything but "GRRM is genius, this book is a masterpiece!" as there are 1 stars reviews that simply state they hated the book without going into details. Among both there are people who give grades without actually finishing the book and even admit as much.

But if you cut off the extremes and check what's in the middle you'll see that 4 stars reviews are almost non-existent and 2 and 3 stars reviews are prevalent. And they are well written and detailed more often than not.

But what most important even many 4 and 5 starred reviewers saw the same problems with the book (pace, overuse of cliffhangers, no resolution etc) eventhough they didn't completely ruin their reading experience. That should convince Martin that those problems do not exist only in "haters" imagination.

[The Human Abstract]

Most reviews are well constructed criticisms, there isn't much trolling going around there. I already had a discussion on Winter-is-Coming why the Amazonratings shouldn't be dismissed, but it really sickens me George AGAIN calls me a troll for posting a bad review.

That quote didn't really call anyone a troll. It merely factually pointed out that these books are wildly successful and more liked than hated.

[Lord Pendragon]

I am very eagerly awaiting The Winds of Winter, and I enjoyed Dance very much. I found it an extremely strong volume in the series, wherein several key plot points were moved forward, often in surprising ways. As a reader, I do not require each volume of a series to have an independent plot structure as some of my fellow readers seem to, so the lack of a conclusion did not phase me, and similiarly I do not require my plot advancement to be explicit. Implicit plot advancement can be just as satisfying to me, and there was plenty of it in Dance.

We learn about the nature of the Three-Eyed Crow, and much of what we can expect Bran to become as a greenseer. His chapters, though fewer than I'd have liked (he's my favorite character :laugh: ) are masterfully written, and intensely satisfying. The counterpoint between his lessons ("darkness is your strength") and Mellisandre's PoV ("the Night is dark and full of terror") intrigues me. Bran has been set up to fight the Great Other ("that is why you must live") even though he himself draws his power from the darkness. What does that say about R'hllor versus the red priesthood?

We learn more about the Faceless Men and their magic. Arya continues to be one of my favorite storylines. The Faceless Men are intent on breaking her down, and I am still not sure whether or not they will succeed. She keeps giving them what they want, how much will they manage to strip away at the end? I would hate to see her lose herself, and am rooting for her to keep true to herself deep down, even as she masters more of their crazy magic. Nymeria prowls the riverlands...waiting.

We see Jon doing his very best to do what is needed to save the world...and getting stabbed in the back for his trouble. I enjoy his PoV more in this volume than ever before. It is refreshing to see the realistic struggles he faces trying to overcome old prejudices to save humanity. The people don't just fall into line because of the wights. People still hate who they've always hated. And then the betrayal, which is both shocking and at the same time make perfect sense. Well of *course*, how can they let him "destroy" the Night's Watch by fouling it with Wildlings?

And Theon. Theon's chapters are at times hard to read due to their nature, but I love them nonetheless. And I think when the series is finally over and done with, Theon's character arc will stand out as one of the most dynamic and moving. His story has several moving moments for me ("This time I recognized you",) and at the same time sets up some very intriguing possibilities for the next volume. I am curious as to how much Theon will be able to recover mentally from his ordeal. It seems clear Asha will attempt to use him for a power play, but I do hope Theon manages to recover enough to be more than a tool. At this point I'm rooting for him.

And dozens of other great tidbits...Quentyn, Ser Robert Strong, Varys oh my Varys...

I came away from this novel smiling. I came away thinking about all the things that may or may not happen in the next volume...

Am I looking forward to the next book? Oh my yes.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

There are, of course, other factors against Amazon. I mean, Twilight is a 4.1 stars book there and, as much as I'm dissatisfied with Dance, that's just an insult. But I'm not sure exactly how GRRM's readers have made him come to the conclusion that their criticism can be dismissed.

Though, of course, it should be noted that very, very few people close to GRRM are willing to criticize him in his face. Actually, there -aren't any readers who are willing to argue with him or defend their positions. Which I see, frankly, as uncomfortable - arguing with the author himself. That's why readers usually expect their opinions in places like Amazon to be taken seriously.

That seems to be what the editor did, not really critize him. it seemed like there was stuff that could have been trimmed. A lot of the Dany chapters were pretty boring and felt like nothing was happening. A lot of characters were introduced that i didn't give two shits about, but i don't think that is exactly the editors fault, since people like Hizdahr play too big a role to cut.

Skimming through the reviews the main complaint seems to be lack of plot development, which I was prepared for since a lot of the book ran side by side with AFFC.

[tipopellet]

People keep saying this, and I'm curious what the source is.

I don't quite remember, some recent interview or post of his. But it came from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

[The Human Abstract]

What he said - basically - is that as long as he's selling books then what's the problem?

I think he merely explained why he doesn't give any particular weight to the vocal minority.

[The Human Abstract]

I was really put off by this. On the Amazon discussion section I was pointed to Mr. Martin's first condescending dismissal of critical reviews. Frankly it was pretty insulting.

Nothing was particularly condescending. He responded to the (totaly false) statement that most of his readers don't like the book, and explained why he cannot put too much weight in this criticism. And he was not off base at all.

I understand how it can make some angry that their criticism will not be very influential, but it seems totally reasoanble to me for him to hold this opinion.

[Hear Me Roar!]

I am very eagerly awaiting The Winds of Winter, and I enjoyed Dance very much. I found it an extremely strong volume in the series, wherein several key plot points were moved forward, often in surprising ways. As a reader, I do not require each volume of a series to have an independent plot structure as some of my fellow readers seem to, so the lack of a conclusion did not phase me, and similiarly I do not require my plot advancement to be explicit. Implicit plot advancement can be just as satisfying to me, and there was plenty of it in Dance.

We learn about the nature of the Three-Eyed Crow, and much of what we can expect Bran to become as a greenseer. His chapters, though fewer than I'd have liked (he's my favorite character :laugh: ) are masterfully written, and intensely satisfying. The counterpoint between his lessons ("darkness is your strength") and Mellisandre's PoV ("the Night is dark and full of terror") intrigues me. Bran has been set up to fight the Great Other ("that is why you must live") even though he himself draws his power from the darkness. What does that say about R'hllor versus the red priesthood?

We learn more about the Faceless Men and their magic. Arya continues to be one of my favorite storylines. The Faceless Men are intent on breaking her down, and I am still not sure whether or not they will succeed. She keeps giving them what they want, how much will they manage to strip away at the end? I would hate to see her lose herself, and am rooting for her to keep true to herself deep down, even as she masters more of their crazy magic. Nymeria prowls the riverlands...waiting.

We see Jon doing his very best to do what is needed to save the world...and getting stabbed in the back for his trouble. I enjoy his PoV more in this volume than ever before. It is refreshing to see the realistic struggles he faces trying to overcome old prejudices to save humanity. The people don't just fall into line because of the wights. People still hate who they've always hated. And then the betrayal, which is both shocking and at the same time make perfect sense. Well of *course*, how can they let him "destroy" the Night's Watch by fouling it with Wildlings?

And Theon. Theon's chapters are at times hard to read due to their nature, but I love them nonetheless. And I think when the series is finally over and done with, Theon's character arc will stand out as one of the most dynamic and moving. His story has several moving moments for me ("This time I recognized you",) and at the same time sets up some very intriguing possibilities for the next volume. I am curious as to how much Theon will be able to recover mentally from his ordeal. It seems clear Asha will attempt to use him for a power play, but I do hope Theon manages to recover enough to be more than a tool. At this point I'm rooting for him.

And dozens of other great tidbits...Quentyn, Ser Robert Strong, Varys oh my Varys...

I came away from this novel smiling. I came away thinking about all the things that may or may not happen in the next volume...

Am I looking forward to the next book? Oh my yes.

Totally agree. Lots of debbie downers in here. Feast for Crows was relatively weak, but Dance with Dragons was very good I thought. The problem is a lot of people waited 10 years for it and almost nothing can withstand 10 years of hot anticipation. Me? I read the first four books over the last couple months and the second I Was done with Feast, was able to go out and read Dance with Dragons. So yeah.

Cannot WAIT for Winds of Winter.

[Knurk]

Nothing was particularly condescending. He responded to the (totaly false) statement that most of his readers don't like the book, and explained why he cannot put too much weight in this criticism. And he was not off base at all.

Why is that statement totally false? Besides this forum, which also has a lot of dissapointed fans, I know 5 people in real life who have read and hated the book. The Amazonreviews make it clear that this book is not well received by a LOT of fans.

[The Human Abstract]

http://grrm.livejournal.com/228477.html?page=2#comments

"Internet anonymity encourages trolling, sock puppetry, and other forms of abuse, and the Amazon reviews demonstrate that beyond a doubt."

What part of being called a "troll" or a "sock puppet" when you are a verified purchaser using your real name and are simply posting a critical review about a series you dearly love could NOT be considered condescending, as well as demeaning?

Ah, I thought we were talking about the most recent comments on page 7. Although what he says is completely correct. You assume that he's calling all Amazon critics trolls, but I think he's merely pointing out that many are.

If you look at the consensus of readers from Amazon, the majority were extremely dissatisfied with the book, and a majority of 4 and 5 star reviews also outlined the same problems the lower rated reviews brought to light.

Um, no. That is nonsense.

[The Human Abstract]

Why is that statement totally false? Besides this forum, which also has a lot of dissapointed fans, I know 5 people in real life who have read and hated the book. The Amazonreviews make it clear that this book is not well received by a LOT of fans.

That the majority of fans did not like that book.

[Idris]

I thought in the google interview he briefly mentioned getting his arse in gear for trying to get the next two books done before the series catches up with him. Looking at the previous publication dates it seemed it generally took about two years between each of the first three novels, and maybe I'm naively optimistic that he can get the other two out. So I'm hoping now that we're pass what I call "blue balls" its going to hit the ground running... and I'm finally going to get my big others invasion. I'm ready for shit to go down in westeros. Enough politicking bring on the wights bb!

[Lord Pendragon]

The problem is a lot of people waited 10 years for it and almost nothing can withstand 10 years of hot anticipation.

You have a point. Also, I think that some readers have gotten used to the serialized nature of certain genre series, such as Terry Goodkind's The Sword of Truth, Piers Anthony's Xanth novels, or Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files. These series, while sequential, are comprised of volumes which each have a self-contained narrative structure. A Song of Ice and Fire hasn't been like that from the beginning but, after waiting so long, that reality is starting to really bug some people.

[Untamed Shrew]

There are, of course, other factors against Amazon. I mean, Twilight is a 4.1 stars book there and, as much as I'm dissatisfied with Dance, that's just an insult.

Twilight fans LOVE them some Twilight!

And, surely to ALL THAT IS HOLY, in the time between writing Feast and writing Dance, surely he was able to write enough of Winter to at least have a decent head start? I mean, could it even be possible that he accomplished NOTHING regarding future books in the series? :) I don't watch/listen to many of his interviews, so am not well-versed when speaking of his writing style or habits, I admit.

But... surely... ?