[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[Cold Pies]

I see AFfC and ADwD as two parts of one book so I guess that's where my mild dissapointment of ADwD comes from and that compounds my anticipation for the true next chapter

[Wife of Bears]

After finishing ADWD, I've come to realize that I'm not really actively looking forward to the next book. Don't get me wrong, I want to read it when it comes out, but it's not really something I think I'm going to think a lot about until it actually happens, the way I was looking forward to AFFC after ASOS.

To explain, I thought ADWD was okay, had its moments, but at the same time, it didn't really do anything for me emotionally. Too many characters I'm not interested in, to little development. And I've come to realize that ASOIAF as a series may not be something I connect as much with as I did with books 1-3, which has affected my anticipation of the next books.

Anyone else share this newfound attitude of 'it'll come out when it comes out', or is everyone still as hungry for the next developments as they were before ADWD?

I am looking forward to the next two books very much. Unlike most of you guys, I am new to the series and was introduced to it by AGOT on HBO. So I have not been through the whole waiting 2-6 years between books like most have and therefore I am not disgruntled. However, the Authors of the other series that I read put books out yearly, so I wouldn't know what to do if it takes GRRM more than a year or so to finish his next book. Also, GRRM is no spring chicken, and as morbid as it may be, I find myself worring about what would happen if he was to die with the series unfinished. That would break my heart. I have read many blog as well where people are irate at GRRM for the long gap between AFFC and ADWD. Some are so irrate that they are boycotting his works until ASoIaF is completely finished. I think that this thought is completely crazy. I have read all of his books back to back and I was just as interested in ADWD as I was with AGOT. This is still one of the best, if not the absolute BEST saga I have ever read. With that being said, I am most certainly looking forward to Winter and Spring with as much aticipation as a 6 year old on Christmas Eve, so I hope he does not keep us waiting for too long. Winter has been coming since AGOT and I am ready for it!!!!

[FuliginEyes]

I am very much anticipating the release of the next book. There were so many cliffhangers that I cannot wait to find out what happens. Particularly on the Wall, in the North, and in the Riverlands with Jaime.

As eager as I ever was to just read some more.

[Prince of Braavos]

On other hand, the storyline in the North, while robbing us of a climax between the Boltons and Stannis, has still progressed notably. So that seems to imply that either Dany's coming to Westeros will simply happen much later in the overall story than we had ever thought, meaning that GRRM never planned for her to spend much time in Westeros before the series ends, or that things will be happening very quickly in the early Dany and co. chapters in Winds of Winter.

God I hope it's the latter and not the former. After Dany being separate from all the major characters I had always thought it was this great buildup for when her story finally hits Westeros, but if he waits until the end of the series to do it I honestly think that's one of the few things he can do that will actually piss me off. Seriously, I didn't even mind the Meereenese politics in this book that much because "I'm just going with it", "It's his story", etc. (and that it was still well-written and enjoyable, with the exception of goddamn Daario), but shortchanging the readers on the payoff of getting to see Dany interact with as many Westerosi characters as possible is one of the few decisions he could make that would actually get to me.

That being said, I think the latter's more likely. There doesn't need to be a whole long explanation of her and the Dothraki. She has a dragon and the khal is someone she hated--no need to overcomplicate this situation. Hopefully the Meereen story in the next book basically opens with her showing up with her brand new khalasar ("...to go forward you must go back..." to being a khaleesi) and kicking ass, and then progresses quickly to her meeting some more of the Westerosi characters like Tyrion and Victarion, and then setting off for Westeros. Which makes sense, because that way, after what would have been the five-year gap (aka AFFC/ADWD), she's now gone from "governing Meereen" mode to "invading Westeros" mode. Also, this is my hope, because I really want to maximize the time she spends politicking/conquering Dorne, the Reach Lords, Aegon and Connington, and the Lannisters before the North plots migrate South in series' climax. Seriously, Dany walking into the world of Westerosi politics could be awesome so long as GRRM isn't going to rush it.

This is also why I actually hope he takes it to eight books.

[Kahryl]

Almost zero anticipation. It's amazing how differently I feel now than when I started reading ADWD.

Feast was kind of a tepid clunker but there were good reasons for that.. it was "bridging the 5 year gap", had tier 2 characters, etc etc. Just made me all the more hungry for the next book. The writing was still good and it was sort of refreshing to take a break for a more relaxed look at Westeros.

But in ADWD it is beyond obvious that something has gone seriously wrong. From what little happens, Dance and Feast could have been combined into one book easily. EASILY. There is absolutely no reason we had to have eleventy chapters of Tyrion looking at turtles and having witless conversations with Penny, or of Dany tugging her braids and doing absolutely nothing except chaining up the only sources of her power base and forgetting about them.

Worse, though - the prose feels DEAD. Ugly. Muddy. Crude. Bitter. There's always been darkness and profanity in the series, but there used to be an energy behind it, a context, a contrast to beautiful and hopeful things that were also present. Now every single POV seems to have the same tired and sour mind behind it - a mind that I'm worried is that of the author himself who just might have started to really hate the series.

In any case.. I really have no more faith in GRRM's ability to handle this series and don't feel like the next book will carry any legitimacy for me.

[Joy Lannister]

One of the first lessons that any writer learns is that you are never going to please everyone. You do the best you can, and put your work out there in the world. Some people will like what you've done. Some won't. That's true for every writer, every story, every book. You can only hope that the former group outnumbers the latter.

I have been lucky enough to write some pretty popular stuff during my career, but even the MOST popular stories have not been universally loved. There are always dissenters. I have long ago accepted that.

All that being said... when you state that "most of your readers" are disappointed with the last two books... well, you're pretty badly off base. A DANCE WITH DRAGONS and A FEAST FOR CROWS have been my most successful novels, by far. DANCE sold almost 300,000 copies in its first day of sale in the US alone. Those two novels are the ONLY books of mine to hit #1 on the NY TIMES bestseller list, and many other lists besides. The reviews on DANCE have been the best I have ever received, though I have been fortunate enough to get a lot of good reviews (and awards) throughout my career. I just got back from a book tour where I drew a thousand people or more at every event, and those who have read DANCE already (about half, I'd judge, more at the later events than the early ones) seemed to like it, even love it. That's like five thousand readers right there. FEAST was a finalist for the Hugo Award, the oldest and most prestigious award in fantasy and SF.

Yes, I know about the Amazon reviews. I have already addressed that point in my reply to a comment on a previous post. Amazon allows anonymous posting. It is no secret that I have my detractors. Hell, the NEW YORKER discussed them at length in their profile. The Amazon system allows such trolls to post multiple attacks under a variety of names, thereby slanting the results.

But the overall response to DANCE has been extraordinarily good.

After reading this, I don't anticipate it at all. GRRM clearly believes aFfC and aDwD are the best books he's ever written. Considering that I greatly disagree with this, and that he believes that all those negative reviews on Amazon are written by trolls (so he has no intention of taking the criticism into consideration), I doubt either Winds or Spring is going to be as good as the first three.

I think I'm done. I'll stick to the TV series and, if the reviews about Winds are favorable, I may buy it. Provided that I still care 5/6/7 years from now.

[tuthmoses]

After finishing ADWD, I've come to realize that I'm not really actively looking forward to the next book. Don't get me wrong, I want to read it when it comes out, but it's not really something I think I'm going to think a lot about until it actually happens, the way I was looking forward to AFFC after ASOS.

To explain, I thought ADWD was okay, had its moments, but at the same time, it didn't really do anything for me emotionally. Too many characters I'm not interested in, to little development. And I've come to realize that ASOIAF as a series may not be something I connect as much with as I did with books 1-3, which has affected my anticipation of the next books.

Anyone else share this newfound attitude of 'it'll come out when it comes out', or is everyone still as hungry for the next developments as they were before ADWD?

you stole my thoughts, I think "okay, had its moments" is about right, I thought some parts were very good, but there was a lot of 'meh' in between. ASOS is still the pinnacle of the series so far for me.

[Sega AM2]

But in ADWD it is beyond obvious that something has gone seriously wrong. From what little happens, Dance and Feast could have been combined into one book easily. EASILY. There is absolutely no reason we had to have eleventy chapters of Tyrion looking at turtles and having witless conversations with Penny, or of Dany tugging her braids and doing absolutely nothing except chaining up the only sources of her power base and forgetting about them.

It's hard to fault GRRM for his bloated and meandering writing when his editor is going around in interviews bragging how she felt none of that needed excising or cutting down. Even worse is that the same editor then openly boasts that she convinced GRRM to move a major plot advancing climactic sequence out of ADWD and into TWOW because she felt ADWD already had too much going on. And on top of that, that GRRM wanted to move another big sequence out, and his editor didn't object one bit.

A fierce editor who would have laid down the law and not been a complete pushover was needed. And needed badly for ADWD and even for AFFC. Imagine an editor that said "AFFC and your next book need to be combined and then halved and sold as one book, enough stalling". Or pushed GRRM to cut down on the boring and add more of the exciting. But GRRM is surrounded by "yes men" who seem unable to stand up to him.

The thing with AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS, is that the chapters are relatively light on excess descriptive prose, and heavier on meaty subjects. Everything feels fluid and not snail's paced. But in ADWD there are entire paragraphs, even entire chapters, that have absolutely no relevance to anything whatsoever other than GRRM going through some masturbatory ego boosting exercise where he sees how many turtles he can write about or how many words he can pound out describing flora and fauna.

Worse, though - the prose feels DEAD. Ugly. Muddy. Crude. Bitter. There's always been darkness and profanity in the series, but there used to be an energy behind it, a context, a contrast to beautiful and hopeful things that were also present. Now every single POV seems to have the same tired and sour mind behind it - a mind that I'm worried is that of the author himself who just might have started to really hate the series.

Of course GRRM really hates the series now. You think it is an accident that ADWD was "three bitches and a bastard" to write or whatever. I don't open too many books to see the author complaining about how he hated writing that work. Anyone who chooses those words to describe a book that took over a decade to get written is obviously not having fun.

Now maybe, maybe, he gets back on track with TWOW. But I think that is bullshit that he wants to write TWOW at all. He already stated on his (not a) blog that he won't even begin work on the novel until 2012 at the earliest. That to me indicates a total lack of enthusiasm for the series. The fact that he has no desire to work on TWOW until the next year does not not exactly scream that he is looking forward to finishing ASOIAF.

In any case.. I really have no more faith in GRRM's ability to handle this series and don't feel like the next book will carry any legitimacy for me.

We aren't even done with AFFC though. GRRM and Anne Groell (his editor) have both already said that they have moved chapters from both novels into TWOW. So TWOW, at least the first handful of chapters, is basically AFFC Part Three. Damphair's great magical tidal wave chapter was moved from AFFC. Brienne and Jaime's saga touched base in ADWD but Brienn's POV chapter was moved to TWOW from AFFC. And then you've still got those two major ADWD sequences that were moved forward to TWOW.

After reading this, I don't anticipate it at all. GRRM clearly believes aFfC and aDwD are the best books he's ever written.

It's because he's surrounded by worshiping mindless phony idiots who refuse to say anything negative about their daddy. GRRM could write a grocery list and his editors would shed a tear. "Oh my god George...the way you listed things in order aisle by aisle...oh god...oh god you're amazing". These people have convinced him that he can do no wrong and that his latest two works are literally flawless.

He writes in AFFC and ADWD that the books were "bitches and bastards" to write, but then his editors and publishers rain the praise on him, and he can't stay afloat and drowns in the ocean of lies. I'm still not convinced that GRRM is happy at all about AFFC and ADWD and that he even cares about the series. Two books in a decade, both that he admittedly hated writing, hardly seems like he actually thinks that they surpass his previous ASOIAF novels.

Considering that I greatly disagree with this, and that he believes that all those negative reviews on Amazon are written by trolls (so he has no intention of taking the criticism into consideration), I doubt either Winds or Spring is going to be as good as the first three.

This was by far the saddest thing that I'd read about GRRM. The fact that he immediately dismissed the negative Amazon reviews as illegitimate, without even reading them, was abysmally pathetic. Even more outrageous was that the press, the "professional" reviews of ADWD, were mostly raving and praising. Some even called ADWD the best in the series and as furious as ASOS in terms of big event after big event just hammering the reader chapter after chapter.

I guess if you don't worship every word of GRRM then you are a troll. Any honest opinions about the books that are negative are obviously being done by a conspiracy of individuals who want to see ASOIAF get negative publicity. It's so obvious. But if you display absolutely zero critical thought whatsoever when analyzing or critiquing GRRM's work, you are not a sheep, but a fan.

I think I'm done. I'll stick to the TV series and, if the reviews about Winds are favorable, I may buy it. Provided that I still care 5/6/7 years from now.

Wait for the Amazon reviews though and not the bought-and-paid-for press. If I go to the bookstore and open TWOW and see "this book was fifteen bitches, ten bastards, six dwarfs, and much and more than forty whores to write," then I will probably just read the chapter summaries online when someone writes them.

[lady crackhead]

After reading this, I don't anticipate it at all. GRRM clearly believes aFfC and aDwD are the best books he's ever written. Considering that I greatly disagree with this, and that he believes that all those negative reviews on Amazon are written by trolls (so he has no intention of taking the criticism into consideration), I doubt either Winds or Spring is going to be as good as the first three.

I think I'm done. I'll stick to the TV series and, if the reviews about Winds are favorable, I may buy it. Provided that I still care 5/6/7 years from now.

Huh. That's pretty awful; I havent seen that til now.

But youre right ....about the wait not being worth it, when you consider the last two subpar effort. I've only been able to get excited about the Theon chapters, & everyone who loved the books with me pre-AFFC are turned off of the series for good now. Theyre so dismissive about it that I had to come back to this board to blather on, as if it mathers ( ;) an homage!).

[BoldAsYouPlease]

If I go to the bookstore and open TWOW and see "this book was fifteen bitches, ten bastards, six dwarfs, and much and more than forty whores to write," then I will probably just read the chapter summaries online when someone writes them.

Funny line, I laughed. But you're right - from his complaints, his many other projects and the amount of time the last two books have taken, it seems obvious Martin isn't finding much joy in writing the ASoIaF series these days. The meandering direction and frequent stops for detailed looks at trivia in the last two books remind me of a kid walking to school on the day his presentation on Paraguay is due.

[Quick Ben]

Wow, I've got to say I think that Kahryl, Joy Lannister, & Sega AM2 hit the nail on the head. In my opinion the length of time TWoW takes to be written will be a good indicator of its' over all quality. I'm hoping that when GRRM started this whole series he had a pretty good idea of where the story would go, & the length of time the last 2 books took to write & their lesser quality resulted from the unforseen loss of the infamous 5 year gap from his original plan. While I realize 5 years have not passed through the last 2 books & many characters are in pretty much the same situations they were in at the end of ASoS, I've got to believe that in the last 11 years GRRM has figgured out how to realign his characters with his original plan for the story. I mean, there is no way that ADwD took 6 years to write in & of itself. Not nearly enough happens to justify that length of time. The only thing that really makes sense considering the increased wait time to decreased pay off ratio, is that much of this time was used to figgure out how to get the story back on track & the fleshing out of the basic ideas for where the series goes from here to avoid writing himself into another corner. The 1st 3 books of the series show that GRRM can write at a reasonably quick rate when he knows where he's going with a story, I can only hope that he's left himself in a position to repeat his earlier efforts.

[Calibandar]

I had not yet read that reply from George that Joy quoted upthread, presumably it is in the comments to one of his blog posts. That is indeed quite depressing. He seems to glorify in the tremendous sales, and then wallow some more in the professional reviews. That is fine by me. But what is not fair is the dismissing of hundreds of Amazon reviews, many of which bring up quite valid points are quite lengtht reviews by themselves, from George's actual customers. People who went and paid for the book, and then posted a genuine response. It irritates me that he dismisses all of them without reading by stating Amazon's review system is flawed and the bad reviews are posted by trolls. That is actually not the case here.

It would not be bad for George to take something from the consensus of those concerns, and try and apply that to writing Winds of Winter.

[tipopellet]

it seems obvious Martin isn't finding much joy in writing the ASoIaF series these days.

Maybe he should give up on it then. Let it be an open-ended trilogy (2 last books better be forgotten) or hand it over to another writer.

I have an awfull suspision that his declared inability to write next book without heavy flashbacks was a first sign of him losing focus. Because in the two iterim books that followed not enough happened to warrant the need of those numerous flashbacks. Instead of giving up he should have hired some ruthless editor and finished the book as planned.

And now he seems to be absolutely happy about this new wandering style of his, ignoring all the negative reviews from avid readers and new fans alike and therefore most probably will continue telling the story in the same manner.

[Ran]

Anyone who's spoken with George knows how much he loves the characters, the setting, and the story -- he sounds as excited about some of the things he's doing now as he did back in 1998 or so, when we started corresponding first.

But he's never really had "joy" in the process of writing -- the pleasure is in "having written", as he's always put it.

[tipopellet]

Well, something obviously did change for him since 98 as both the quality and the pace of writing dropped rather significantly. If it's not his enthusiasm then it must be his talent? Or his publisher's ability to force severe editing on him?

[Ran]

Everybody has opinions. :)

[rhaze]

Yeah I think of all things I am most disappointed in GRRMs blind eye to the complaints. Not that I expect anything different. From everything I have seen or read about GRRM he is 100% yes man. Only those willing to heap constant praise on him can be allowed to have any access to him. So instead of taking the criticisms and improving he just calls everyone names and acts like a child.

[Caine]

Forget the next book, I'm actually less excited about HBO's Season 2 due to the horrible last 2 novels. If the tv series ever gets to AFFC & ADWD (I'm hoping not now), I could imagine many dropping out like flies from Martin's meandering and tangential story arcs. Does he live in a vacuum that he refuses to acknowledge the mostly negative reviews of AFFC and ADWD?

Obviously another bridge novel in the spirit of A FEAST FOR CROWS, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS clearly sags in a quagmire of plots, characters and prophecies. This is just bad writing, and those who blindly worship at the altar of George R.R. Martin and A Song of Ice and Fire will dismiss the critics and invariably allude to obscure depths of value in AFFC and ADWD: psychology, character essays, and hidden gems overlooked on a first-read. These same fans will tell the critics to back off, that George knows where he's going with this, and to wait for the next book to realize the fruits of the labors that are AFFC and ADWD. I say bullshit. I didn't need to read AGOT, ACOK and ASOS as many times as the number of characters in ASOIAF to know that I loved these books. That this series and these books were good. Real good. And I don't have to read the last two books more than once to know that they're bad. Real bad

[tuthmoses]

I think his editor has alot to answer for - authors tend not to like cutting stuff out and that is what the editor is there for he/she should be telling him that such and such is just filler and not really necessary etc we don't need to hear about Tyrion staring at turtles etc etc it just slows down the plot ... chapters are getting longer and longer compared to the earlier books and big events are just being put off to the next book each time and whats with all the travelling ....

[rhaze]

I am willing to bet 50 bucks right now that there isnt a 4th season on HBO. First 3 books may very well be the best first 3 books of any series any time, but 4 and 5 made the series average again. Plenty of competition for average series.