[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[Carter209]

Damn, I understand that people have a right to their own opinion on the book, but saying the plot didn't move forward at all is pretty idiotic to say. The North is now the melting pot that Meereen was(and still is, in a way) prior to ADWD. I don't see Dany taking half a book to rally the Dothraki and leave Meereen. If Jon is dead, good, if he's resurrected as UnJon, good. Hell, when the series is finished people might say that Feast and Dance were the best books in the series. The point is, we don't know how this is gonna end, so comparing the past two to Storm, which was not going to be topped until at least TWOW, IMO, isn't the right way to go about looking at this series. Each book has its strengths, even Feast which the majority of readers hated. So until we see the end, I don't think it's prudent to just pan Dance.

To the OP, I'm eagerly awaiting Winds, even if I'm the only person who actually liked the cliffhangers and progression of the story. And to be fair, the majority of the story in the past two books weren't supposed to be fleshed out like they were. Seeing it all firsthand was going to be boring, that's just the way it is, since he didn't plan on writing it in the first place.

[Lummel]

Anticipation would be the wrong word for me, ADWD was the first GRRM that I got in hardback, I thoroughly enjoyed it, read it twice and some bits more. I anticipate that I'll pre-order TWOW once we get that far.

I think judging from how people here on this forum react to AFFC you could have guessed in advance that ADWD would also be a divisive book, but I don't think that's a sign of bad writing. Reading these threads you see people are coming to the books with different ideas, picking up on different things, disliking things that others enjoy and visa versa. And opinions change, I'm certainly reading and going back and re-reading the series differently based on threads that I've read here.

As for the cliffhangers. Most of GRRM's chapters have a hook, usually towards the end to keep you reading. Yes some of those are bigger towards the end of ADWD, but if you took away those chapters you'd get a much shorter book because really you'd have to go back at least two Dany chapters for instance to have only a small cliffhanger ending.

[Joy Lannister]

Damn, I understand that people have a right to their own opinion on the book, but saying the plot didn't move forward at all is pretty idiotic to say. The North is now the melting pot that Meereen was(and still is, in a way) prior to ADWD. I don't see Dany taking half a book to rally the Dothraki and leave Meereen. If Jon is dead, good, if he's resurrected as UnJon, good. Hell, when the series is finished people might say that Feast and Dance were the best books in the series. The point is, we don't know how this is gonna end, so comparing the past two to Storm, which was not going to be topped until at least TWOW, IMO, isn't the right way to go about looking at this series. Each book has its strengths, even Feast which the majority of readers hated. So until we see the end, I don't think it's prudent to just pan Dance.

To the OP, I'm eagerly awaiting Winds, even if I'm the only person who actually liked the cliffhangers and progression of the story. And to be fair, the majority of the story in the past two books weren't supposed to be fleshed out like they were. Seeing it all firsthand was going to be boring, that's just the way it is, since he didn't plan on writing it in the first place.

I didn't know how the series was going to end after I read Game, Clash and Storm too, and yet I loved them. They felt complete.

And I'm sorry, but are you insinuating that an arc that took 11 years to write was bound to be boring because it wasn't in the original plan that has constantly changed since 1991? Game was originally planned to end with the Red Wedding, which took GRRM around 8 years and two more books to get to, and still Storm turned out pretty well, if you ask me.

That said, I'm rereading Dance now, and it really has its moment. If only I had some guarantee that the next book will be different and more similar to the first three, I may grow to like it too. But nothing in Dance gives me the assurance that the pace and the writing style of the first three books will return, and GRRM certainly doesn't help with that. So the question is - while Dance is an okay book, do I really want to read 2 (or, more likely, 3-4) more books similar to Feast and Dance? My answer is no.

[Wouter]

I'm eagerly awaiting it, I actually want it like right now (though last week would have been better).

Pity it will be 2 or 3 years before it comes out (I hope).

Considering the way ADWD ended, the start to TWOW should be unusually action-packed at least in the Meereen storyline. And Dany will finally get to meet Tyrion.

I don't agree with those who say that Martin's quality has dropped - but then, I generally don't like novels that move superfast (leaving all "the fat" out, but I feel "fat" can add atmosphere and feeling to a story if done well). I like AGOT the least of all the ASOIAF novels actually, exactly because it is so compact in its storytelling. I would have loved to get to know the Starks a bit better before all hell broke loose, for example. So I think I am on board with Martin's feeling that he prefers to put those more "moody" chapters in, which some readers seem to be rather affronted by (think Tyrion's "turtle" chapters - I loved those).

AFFC was a bit less than ACOK and ASOS for me, but ADWD was a very enjoyable read. Maybe it helped that I was heavily spoiled, thus already knew the most important cliffhangers and turns, and could afford to read slowly because I wasn't rushing to get to the end (and then I would probably have felt disappointed at first if I hadn't known much in advance).

Considering that hate sites exist for GRRM, apparently over his slow writing pace since ASOS, I also feel he has somewhat of a point with his criticism of the Amazon reviews, which may not be quite as representative as they seem to be even if some of the written criticism there may make a number of valid points. It seems exagerated, in any case, to conclude that a majority of readers isn't liking the book, allthough the criticism is quite vocal.

[Knurk]

Ran, I am wondering how you would have reasoned if the Amazon rating had been 4.1 and the Goodreads 2.8. I find it slightly irking that you so easily dismiss the Amazon ones and it's unbelievably childish to claim it is the trolls. I believe you if you say 3000 of 4000 ratings on Goodreads came in after the book was released, still a website that allows ratings for unpublished books doesn't stand high in my regard. The only trolling I see on Amazon is a few people in the comments constantly going in discussion with good reviews. For me it's saying everything that aGoT had a 4.4 with 2000 reviews, aCoK a 4.5 with 746 revies, aSoS a 4.5 with 866 reviews, aFfC 3.2 with 1015 revies and aDwD 2.8 with 713.

[Ninefingers]

Ran, I am wondering how you would have reasoned if the Amazon rating had been 4.1 and the Goodreads 2.8. I find it slightly irking that you so easily dismiss the Amazon ones and it's unbelievably childish to claim it is the trolls. I believe you if you say 3000 of 4000 ratings on Goodreads came in after the book was released, still a website that allows ratings for unpublished books doesn't stand high in my regard. The only trolling I see on Amazon is a few people in the comments constantly going in discussion with good reviews. For me it's saying everything that aGoT had a 4.4 with 2000 reviews, aCoK a 4.5 with 746 revies, aSoS a 4.5 with 866 reviews, aFfC 3.2 with 1015 revies and aDwD 2.8 with 713.

Neither of these polls are scientific, and reflect the views of the people who happened to respond (and we don't know who they are). Trying to infer the opinion of the general population from these is difficult at best but likely impossible.

Perhaps the Amazon reviewers are on average more casual readers while the Goodreads folks are more serious fans. Or maybe it's the other way around. Or maybe the trolls invaded one site. Or the fanbois invaded another. Who knows?

[Brucolac]

I have gave the book a 3 on amazon only because I am a fan of the series, but I had a more bad things to say about ADwD than good. In my opinion AFoC was a much better book even if it did not have the POVs that fans had come to love. I don't really want GRRM to listen to fans on how to write a book, but I am worried that he is insulated by yes men. There can be no question that the book was rushed from a completed manuscript to the book stores, but it worries me how much actually would and should have been edited out if they had taken their time with it. His popularity and the demand for new work have put him in a position where he can get anything published, and what are the chances that he is the same writer that published GoT 15 years ago. People and interests change much faster than that, and this series could essentially be finished by a completely different writer than the one that started it. I'll take GRRM circa 2000 over the new one who seems to be a writer without focus.

[Veneno]

Sure you can. Seven times the rating sample is hard to argue with.

Ran, I don't really understand your point. I thought Adam Whitehead told us we should not pay attention to Amazon.com ratings made before the book was published. Shouldn't the same apply to goodreads.com? If you sort by oldest, you can see five star ratings dating back from 2007. So why is goodreads.com rating any good?

[Brucolac]

I give way more credence to amazon reviews then to goodreads which is almost a social networking site, which I feel degrades the objectivity of reviewers. If they had a review section on this page, you would expect the majority of them to be glowing because you aren't here unless you are already a fan of the series. Amazon would have the best spectrum of fanaticism amongst readers even if it has less reviews.

[Ran]

If you sort by oldest, you can see five star ratings dating back from 2007. So why is goodreads.com rating any good?

I already explained this up thread, Veneno.

Here, for example, is a review labelled March 30, 2008, in which the person is aware of Brienne's very brief appearance, discusses Tyrion etc. This person wasn't Nostradamus -- it's that Goodreads only shows the initial date of any entry ("So-and-so marked this book as to-read"), even after they update with a review, rating, etc. There's another marked July 26, 2008 that is even more detailed, but it's the same thing: they put the book on their to-read list on that date, and then after they read it, they gave a rating and offered a review without the date of their entry being changed.

In any case, since July 13, 3800 ratings have been added..

[David Selig]

Most of Robert Stanek's books all have 5 star ratings on Amazon and some of them have hundreds of reviews. That alone is a pretty good reasons to take their ratings with huge grain of salt. Not that there aren't many helpful reviews there, but it's just easy to manipulate the system.

Changing things trying to please everyone is usually a recipe for disaster for artist, so I am fine with Martin ignoring the negative Amazon reviews.

[The Human Abstract]

lol are you taking crazy pills? the only facts out right now is that a MAJORITY of people hated the book on amazon (and they actually bought the book)

How do you figure?

[Brucolac]

I like ASOIAF because it is not like other fantasy series, which I stopped paying attention to long ago for the most part. I kept up with it because I thought it was better done than other books in the genre, and I think the reader base has grown to many people who read no other fantasy. The only people still reading Jordan and many other fantasy series are die hard fans, and their reviews should be taking with a grain of salt. Look at each review of the GRRM books and you can see the decline, chances are the same people are reading and reviewing them. Yeah, a bad book by GRRM is better then Jordan at his best, but it doesn't make it a good book. The appeal of GoT was that it was able to transcend a genre, but Martin seems content to anchor himself down as mid-level fantasy writer now. He has moved me to the curious spectator crowd from admiring fan.

[Untamed Shrew]

I LOVE (or love to hate) the greater majority of the characters in ASoIaF. Seriously, I think GRRM has an ability to individualize these people and make us want to know more about them, but that doesn't mean I like what the characters are doing every moment of their POV's, or how slowly their stories move.

I cannot, however, invest any more emotion into greatly anticipating the next book because of how long I waited for the last two. It would be futile.

But I WILL be at the PX on the day the book comes out, just like I was with Feast and Dance -- even after years of pacing impatiently, obsessively checking GRRM's website for updates, massive amounts of pouting, angrily re-reading the other 4 books (twice!), and loudly refusing to buy ADWD to all and sundry. I'll be anticipating it in a more non-committal way, with peace in my heart. :D

[rue721]

My anticipation for the next book is minimal. I am almost 60 years old. I do not know if I will even be alive if and when the next volume is published.

This is the best answer I've ever read.

I'm having a *huge* amount of trouble getting through DwD. It feels to me like it was heating on the stove for too long. I love a lot of the prose, and I think there are interesting themes buried under everything, but I also think it's wayyyyyy overcooked.

I have lot of anticipation for the next book, because I want to see GRRM get back to form.

The rating DwD has on Amazon (somewhere between 2 and 3) is basically how I'd rate it, too. I think that the ratings of hundreds of purchasers is as good a sample of readers' reactions as any. I don't know why another sample of people who might have bought the book and rated it on another site would be better? The gap between the goodreads and Amazon scores is suspicious, but since nobody but purchasers can rate on Amazon, I'm prone to trust that a bit more.

Regardless, I don't see what GRRM is supposed to say when he hears people express frustration or disappointment about these last two books. I also think there has been a huge drop in quality, but it seems as though it's not for lack of trying on GRRM's part. I get the feeling he doesn't know where things should go next, and that's why nobody ever "gets there" but just keeps plodding along. It's not to say those journeys are worthless, exactly, but they feel aimless.

Honestly, I don't care what GRRM says about the reader response because I figure he's just saying whatever allows him to keep his pride. I do hope, however, he'll spend a much larger percentage of his time brainstorming and outlining next time, instead of trying to turn sow's ear chapters into silk purses by re-writing and re-writing and re-writing, because that's what I suspect happened with DwD.

[Lord Tywin]

Potentially, a lot can happen in TWOW now that the aftermath of ASOS and hopefully the buildup to the climax of the series are done.

- GRRM would really have to jump the shark for Tyrion to not do anything more interesting than what he did in Dance. My guess is he'll hook up with Dany and/or Victarion in the East instead of just heading back to Westeros with Plumm.

- Littlefinger's plan should be fully set in motion

- The Martells should become a stronger presence in King's Landing

- Winter has arrived

- Melisandre vs the Others

- Varys is back

- Bran will learn to use his powers

- The Golden Company becomes a threat to the Lannisters

- Cersei might be able to stir some shit up again; or at least her trial ought to be interesting

- War in Meereen, possibly from Barristan's POV

- Davos searching for Rickon & Shaggy

- If he's not dead or imprisoned, Stannis will probably still be intriguing

- Jaime & Brienne... not sure what they're up to, but at least the tour of the Riverlands and the coast is likely over

- Dany has Drogon, though I'm not wild about her undertaking more Dothraki trials

- Unless he's dead, as in worm-food-not-coming-back-ever-again-dead , Jon's chapters couldn't get any worse than they were in ADWD (actually, death might be an improvement)

- Victarion & the dragon horn

- Stoneheart giving the Lannisters & Freys a royal beatdown

With all this and much more, there's lots that could come to a head in TWOW. Not looking forward to much more of Meereen or any more questionable viewpoint characters, if that's what GRRM has planned. I'll almost certainly be getting TWOW unless it takes years and my nterest in the series (and likely fantasy as a whole) dwindles like.. um ... a whore's interest after the money runs out.

[Black Amethyst]

My level of anticipation is not very high, mainly because I just burned through the whole series over the last couple of weeks, so it's all still fresh in my mind. There is also the TV series that will be coming back around in spring. I'm not expecting anything new for several years. My expectations have been set regarding Martin's pace.

I will admit though that I am not really used to following authors with a slower pace. So it will be new for me. I have mostly read very prolific authors that come out with material year after year. I read a lot though, and lots of different authors, so I tend to always have something interesting ready.

[Wouter]

I like ASOIAF because it is not like other fantasy series

Maybe that's part of the problem? That some people like ASOIAF only in so far as it is subverting the fantasy genre, and Martin may actually be playing it straighter than they thought?

Since I do like the fantasy genre in general, I don't have much of a problem with ASOIAF actually being fantasy, not some literary experiment.

And while ASOIAF is a fantasy series, it is still very different from any other series out there. I think that "Memory, sorrow and thorn" gets quite close to it but other than that...

When the question is asked on the other literature forum for something like ASOIAF to read, it always seems hard to come up with a satisfying answer. Many of the suggestions offered usually aren't anything like ASOIAF.

[taurunum dire cat]

Cant wait for the next one!!!!

First of all it cant be worst than this one.

I love ASOIAF cose it was diferent than other epic,but I had fealeng reading DWD I was reading Jordan and not Martin,I meen 956 pages of what colour of dreses,hair stiles,food inwentories,and nothing realy hapens ap to the end chapters of all the characters and then it is all scuized in like 100 pages of clifthangers!!!!!

But i still hawe hope for next book.

[Lord Eddard]

Sure you can. Seven times the rating sample is hard to argue with.

Most of the "reviews" on that goodreads site were written before the book was even published. So I tend to take the amazon reviews more seriously. They were right on their money with the brilliant first three books and sadly they reflect the inferior quality of Feast and Dance as well. Denial won't change facts.