[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[huskylord]

My overall impression of ADWD was "meh".

I'll still buy the next book the day it comes out, but I've lowered my expectations significantly.

I'll read to the series to the end in hopes of an improvement, but won't be surprised if it's more of the same.

[Lord Eddard]

I looked up another book on goodreads, a book called ¨Crossroads of Twilight¨, I´m certain you´ve heard about it.

We all know how bad that book was, however on goodreads it has a 3.68 score. It has 3674 5 star reviews (28% of the reviews) and 4049 4 star reviews (30% of the reviews). On Amazon that book has an average of 1.8 out of 5.

Good point. Also, on amazon you have had to buy something in the past to post a review. In addition, a lot of reviews have the "Verified Purchase" and "Real name" tag which lends credibility. To my knowledge, goodreads has no such measures implemented to prevent trolling.

My anticipation for the next book is pretty low. I am more excited about HBO now which speaks volumes.

[huskylord]

Wow, based on your post, I went to amazon.com to look at some of the review.

First ten pages I read nothing but 3, 2 and 1 stars (out of 5).

Ouch!

[Ran]

Three people now who claim "most" of the ratings at Goodreads were written before the book was published, but this is clearly a failure to understand how Goodreads works. See my earlier remark. As to verification, if you go into the actual profiles of people at Goodreads who have rated the book, it's interesting that the majority that I can see have other books rated as well, not necessarily just books from the series. Like I said, it's a bibliophile site, it's not really going to attract the mindshare or influence of something like a big, commercial retail site as Amazon.com.

To tackle a couple of queries from the last page very quickly:

I was asked earlier what I would say if the figures were reversed -- the larger sample location had a "worse" score than the smaller sample location -- and I would probably say that the larger sample site which is more of a bibliophile site is probably a better representative than the smaller, consumerist site of what the broader population thinks; I think there's something about the psychology of treating books as objects to enjoy in and of themselves, and another as being a place to encourage or warn people off spending money on a book, that makes a difference. This is, of course, speculative.

Someone else mentioned He Who Shall Not Be Named (initials RS) and his sockpuppeted high ratings, and so I'd suppose that was the case at Amazon as well.

Further, I was asked what I thought of the Crossroads of Twilight score of 3.68. I tend to convert these things into percentile figures, and then assign them a grade as if it were school, so 3.68 comes out as... 74%, rounding up? That's a C.

Well, I don't know, I'd have said C-/D+, but okay, I can dig it. Just because I'm less enchanted with it doesn't mean everyone else has to be as well. And vice versa -- 82% for AFfC/ADwD is lower than I'd put those books, but then again, 88% for A Game of Thrones (as it is at Goodreads) is lower than I'd rate that book.

[Alpha13]

The fanboy in me will always be excited for the next book. That being said, ADWD was strange. The later chapters with the characters from AFoC felt out of place. I felt no closure(even most of the cliffhangers did not feel like "end of book cliffhangers"). The story is moving sideways instead of forward. I mean if the main battle is going to be humans vs others then this book accomplished almost nothing.

[Lummel]

The story is moving sideways instead of forward. I mean if the main battle is going to be humans vs others then this book accomplished almost nothing.

So it seems, but if we hacked out all the pages that directly had something to do with the Others would we even have one book of five hundred pages out of the whole of ASOIAF to date?

Unless I imagine that GRRM is writing randomly I have to assume that what he is writing and how he is writing are relevent to the story that he wants to tell.

Personally I thought the main battle was going to be the human heart divided against itself, but who knows!

[Alpha13]

So it seems, but if we hacked out all the pages that directly had something to do with the Others would we even have one book of five hundred pages out of the whole of ASOIAF to date?

Unless I imagine that GRRM is writing randomly I have to assume that what he is writing and how he is writing are relevent to the story that he wants to tell.

Personally I thought the main battle was going to be the human heart divided against itself, but who knows!

Either way I never got the feeling that the series was about who wins the throne.

I've heard this called a middle book but I'm not sure. Middle books set everything up for the climax. I feel like this book is setting up for the middle book(s).

[Veneno]

I already explained this up thread, Veneno.

Here, for example, is a review labelled March 30, 2008, in which the person is aware of Brienne's very brief appearance, discusses Tyrion etc. This person wasn't Nostradamus -- it's that Goodreads only shows the initial date of any entry ("So-and-so marked this book as to-read"), even after they update with a review, rating, etc. There's another marked July 26, 2008 that is even more detailed, but it's the same thing: they put the book on their to-read list on that date, and then after they read it, they gave a rating and offered a review without the date of their entry being changed.

In any case, since July 13, 3800 ratings have been added..

Ok. You make good points. Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected.

This is what I really intended to convey with that post: it is hard to simply dismiss every single amazon.com review. Among the 1 stars there are some very thoughtful but at the same time, critical reviews. It is notable that a lot of those reviews start off by how much the person has a love for the series, and how far back they started reading it. That doesn't sound to me like a someone reaping on the benefits of anonymity to lash out.

I've collected reviews showing how much these people are GRRM's fans and how much they love and care about the series. Examples (and just to be clear, these are amazon.com 1 star reviews):

(1)

Where oh where to start. I first picked up the series in 1997 and was blown away by Game of Thrones. I was delighted by Martin's amazing balance of juggling a variety of viewpoints while building what seemed to be a living, breathing world all around them. My delight grew into awe and then burgeoned into rapture by the time I read through A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords, because he managed to maintain a varied but limited cast and hop among them to highlight major developments while avoiding the lulls.

(2)

I am the biggest fan of ASOIAF that you will find. The reason I'm such a big fan however is because of the amazing quality of the first three novels. I consider A Storm of Swords to be the greatest book I've ever read.

(3)

I was taken over by book 1, had to have books 2 and 3, and even enjoyed AFFC.

(4)

Don't get me wrong. I loved books one, two and three. LOVED them.

Martin's ASOIAF displayed a distinctive, original style from the get-go, [...] I was impressed as well by the author's vitality. Here was a writer who had "fire in the belly," and I was happy to be carried along with the project.

(5)

I loved Martin's first three books

(6)

I remember finishing "Storm of Swords" like some people remember the Kennedy assassination.

I know exactly where I was and how loud I screamed, and I couldn't wait to read the next book.

(7)

I have been a big fan of this series for some time. So, i snatched up this book 5 minutes after the bookstore opened on the release date and dove into it.

(8)

Like so many people, I loved the first three books and read them quickly.

(9)

Let me say I think GRRM has a great sense of character and can do a plot twist like nobody's business.

(10)

I love This series so much. George R.R. martin is just an amazing writer and I have a great deal of respect for his obvious passion for detail and creation of substantive charterers.

(11)

I have been a fan of this series since its earliest days[...]

(12)

I waited a long time for this book,[...]

(13)

I could not put down the first four novels and for that, I thank you.

(14)

I loved the first three, even four books.

(15)

First of all a disclaimer: I loved all the four previous instalments of Song of Ice and Fire, included A Feast for Crows.

(16)

I am new to the series and was instantly hooked with books 1-3.

==End of examples==

And I could go on and on and on. And I didn't touch the two star reviews.

So these are all people that have glowing opinions of GRRM's ASOIAF and really care about the story, and want to found out what happens next.

Does this sound like in GRRM's own words: "The Amazon system allows such trolls to post multiple attacks under a variety of names, thereby slanting the results."? These people aren't trolls. Sure, they exist. But these are people giving their honest opinion and what they really felt on reading the fifth book.

My personal opinion is this.

I also really loved books 1 through 3. I am a late comer to these books and starting reading them this year. Books 4 and 5 were ok, I still enjoyed them. And maybe GRRM's intention was really making as very unconfortable with the situation depicted in book 5. But book 5 had really unconfortable moments, even more so because they took up a large portion of the book. Like, how showing in painstaking detail how difficult it was for Daenarys to finally take action, but even then we're just shown a glimpse in this moment and not the action itself. We're shown in painstaking detail Tyrion's journey to Daenarys and how much suffering he endures, and again, he only almost reaches her. And finally, for Jon, how long it takes to see that his how he is distancing himself from all the people who really trust him and surrounding himself with people who though well intentioned, simply do not have his vision, and again we do not see the payoff of this.

Some people suggest it is the editor's fault. Some people suggest GRRM may have grown disillusioned based on his comments.

Whatever it is, many people write these critical reviews in hope they may be constructive, and although some declare they have lost hope or have ceased to care, many others still hope for another great book in this series.

[The King in the South]

Mine is so big that I've started writing my own book series to try and take my mind off Asoiaf

[Alia of Dune]

Many people seemed disappointed and thought that the book was somehow anti-climatic. For me, this book left me truly hungry for more, in a way that the 4th did not. I found it very compelling and made me so much more eager to find out what will happen next, to see how George ties it all together.

While I've been waiting for it for 2 years or so now (when i finished AFfC), I know that some people here must have waited for 5 years for this book to come out and probably had some huge expectations, they anticipated the plot going one way when it went in the complete opposite direction and so on.

I for one couldn't put the book down, found most of the chapters quite well written and I wouldn't be one bit disappointed if the next one will be written in the same style. Overall I can't wait for the next one to come out, for George to make light on some things while throwing in new mysteries! I also hope that he keeps inserting rich huge chunks of lore regarding the world, history etc.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

It's hard for me to anticipate new book when I haven't fully read this one. At least, I have to assume that there is a huge chunk of pages missing in the end in my version of ADWD. There is a slow build up to Mereene vs. Yunkai'i conflict but someone cut out the battle itself! Very annoying, I hoped there will be also revelations as to who is the Harpy (we all have guesses but I wanted to be sure) and what's up with Mereneese intrigues, at least somewhat. There was also huge build up to Northern vengeance on Stannis, but someone cut out the battle or resolution of conflict between Stannis and Boltons. There is also clearly at least one more Tyrion chapter. I hope there was also chapter with Cersei's trial, as that would make structure of the book much better, but I am not sure.

Also, it seems like someone stuck in jaime/brienne chapter from AFFC into my ADWD. Which is good because it is exactly the chapter that was missing in my copy!

I have to buy another version, hopefully full one, because right now it's like having prelude to the sex but then orgasms and everything are delayed for six more years. A shame because it was all building up to something interesting, although author sure took his time getting there, but I didn't get to read any of the catharsis!

[DJ Dawn]

I look forward to it.

Dance was a solid read. It's building. If he kept the pace of Storm, we would have missed all sorts of neat things. I don't think you can truly compare it with the later WoT books. They went 1000's of pages with zero movement.

Dance has a mainland invasion beginning, Tyrion made it from Pentos to Mereen.

I've always been anti-Dany, but even Mereen has an awful lot of growth.

Characters must fail before they can succeed. I think Dany's Meereneese problems make any sort of her being a great leader/conquerer/anything more believable to me. Without them she would feel like some sort of magic girl that succeeds due to her birth, rather than by learning.

So I'm good with Feast and Dance simply building tension.

[Alexia]

because right now it's like having prelude to the sex but then orgasms and everything are delayed for six more years. A shame because it was all building up to something interesting, although author sure took his time getting there, but I didn't get to read any of the catharsis!

I'm going to voice agreement with this. It wouldn't be so bad if one of the two major plotlines of the story was resolved (battle for the North or battle for Mereen) but that we were left on cliffhangers for both is really a shame.

I liked the book, and I think that if it were merged with AFFC, the outcome for at least one of those two battles stuck in, and then resplit in two, the books would be as good as the first three. I don't mind some cliffhangers -- for example, Jaime heading off with Brienne, but at the moment it just doesn't feel complete. Actually, one thing I was thinking as I read is that Cersei's two chapters and Arya's two chapters should have been in AFFC instead -- they would have nicely tied off their plotlines and then there would have been that bit of extra space to include some Mereen/North resolution. Jaime's single chapter would also have been a pretty good candidate to push into AFFC.

JMHO, of course.

[redxavier]

It also says in that thread that George has said he's not going to continue writing TWOW until 2012, but there is no citation for that claim. Does anybody know if there is a link to that information, or where/when it was said?

When added to the arrogant response to the criticism, the very long 'I can take as long as I want because I'm the new Tolkien' delay, and 'man was this a bitch to write' attitude, this is a big warning sign to me. What it tells me is that GRRM isn't eager to continue telling his story. He's not chomping at the bit to get back to his desk and return to this world. Sure he's saying to fans and the inner circle of the ever faithful that he loves the world he's created, but his actions say otherwise.

I do hope, however, he'll spend a much larger percentage of his time brainstorming and outlining next time, instead of trying to turn sow's ear chapters into silk purses by re-writing and re-writing and re-writing, because that's what I suspect happened with DwD.

You know, I believe this is very close to the mark. It's clear that GRRM edits and extensively rewrites chapters, tweaking them again and again (as most writers do to be fair) but some chapters are so thin I wonder if he just spent weeks and months trying to add some substance. As the old saying goes, you can't polish a turd.

The best written chapters by far are the Davos and Connington chapters, which are the perfect balance between plot movement, story relevation, character development and world-building detail - much the same as the first 3 books. I wouldn't be surprised if he blazed through those the quickest.

[Scotty J]

I had anticipation for the next book even before I read this one.. I wasn't a big fan of the splitting up of characters... I think it would have been way more satisfying if the story was cut in half, but still maintained its time lines everything. I think the FoC/DwD should just be merged at some point in the future to make it simpler to read and because many others and myself are never going to read FoC again otherwise, heh.

[DUNADAN]

The best written chapters by far are the Davos and Connington chapters,

there was just one Davos chapter (the one where he has a tête-à-tête with Lord Manderly (or what's his name, from White Harbor) in which I really felt engaged, and which reminded me of the first 3 books.

all the rest, such disappointment that I can't even find the words to describe it.

and, the worst thing is that he made me become indifferent to all my favorite characters; Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya.

after this, I'm not really looking forward to WoW, of course I'll read it, but the anticipation is surgically removed.

[Volderon]

I've read the books 3 times through including FEAST.

So on my latest read through I tried the first three books and then DANCE right after to see if it made a difference, and you know what, it did, if you completely get rid of FEAST (blasphemy?) then DANCE is not that bad of a book.

[Gigei]

AFfC was alright but not that good and ADwDs was awesome sometimes (go, Manderly! Daavos! OMG the one-eyed crow!) but overall so mnay parts were boring. I'm even bored with Arya. So I would say what I am looking forward to the next book but I am not extremely excited about it.

[KhalHodor]

Little and less.

I am saddened that ADwD won't be a book that I reread many times, hunting for new discoveries. I loved the first three books so much that I could overlook the meandering mess that was AFfC. ADwD, while somewhat more exciting than Feast, is an even worse meandering mess. There is no economy in the writing anymore. The tight control that made the first three books such a joy is sadly gone. Cliffhangers do not work for me any more. That coin is spent.

I will read book 6, no doubt. I will not eagerly await for it. I actually don't much care anymore.

[KhalHodor]

I've read the books 3 times through including FEAST.

So on my latest read through I tried the first three books and then DANCE right after to see if it made a difference, and you know what, it did, if you completely get rid of FEAST (blasphemy?) then DANCE is not that bad of a book.

So, since July 12 you've read:

A Dance with Dragons

A Game of Thrones

A Clash of Kings

A Storm of Swords

A Dance with Dragons

Really?