[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[Davieboy]

I've just finished listening to the audiobook - 5 weeks!

I absolutely loved ADwD and thought it was masterfully written. I had tried to avoid spoilers but did pick-up that there was a fair amount of similar criticism to AFfC. I thought it fast-paced enough and full of incident. There was plenty of GRRM's inventiveness evident. I thought that it got most of the plotlines to a reasonable point - not resolved of course but nicely-poised. I reckon that when it's re-read in a year or so it will be even better, as I'll be able to relax over the actual story and concentrate on what seemed to me to be superb writing and intricate plotting.

[alguien]

And in this market if you start a fantasy series you do not generally take 5 or 6 years to deliver each book.

Can anyone name any other significant fantasy or SF writer who gets away with that?

Off the top of my head, Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

And then, he bowed to pressure and rushed his last three books and completed them all in one go.

And we all know how that went...

[alguien]

We are in 2011 and not in 1950. Different times, you know?

I'm a child of the 80's, I know about hype. Having a roommate who works for Google, I also know that fans can get oversaturated by it and become their own worst enemies. I've seen it on tech forums, comic book sites, everywhere. Hell, I'm probably guilty of it myself.

Well, Martin has done EXACTLY THE SAME. People talks about "entitlement" and "expectations" as if the readers are to blame. Martin himself has built the tremendous amount of hype surrounding ASOIAF. No doubt this has helped him make money, which is perfectly legitimate. But you have to take the good with the bad, now you have to cope with the consequences of an "overhyped" product.

I know this is odd to contemplate, but by almost every metric, the majority of people rank ADWD a success.

And yes, the reader is to blame for his or her own expectations and a sense of entitlement. People aren't mindless sheep, they can form opinions on their own, just as they should own up to them and defend them. [ETA: and to be fair, I have read plenty of thoughtful criticism] If anything, I found his Not A Blog pretty open about the struggles he had with Dance and, far from over-hyping it, it made me realize how difficult a process it was.

[FireAngel]

I am super excited, there was alot of things left unanswered and the cliff hanger with Stanis and Jon are to much to wait 6 years or whatever. Think GRRM should stop all these damn tours and get back to finishing WoW. He is building up a even bigger fan base with the HBO show being out and people are reading the books so the demand and pressure will be on him soon to get it done and finish the series all together. We have waited long enough to know what happens.

[Nihilist]

I do find it really weird that so many new people have joined this board in the last 2 months to make their first posts about how they no longer are looking forward to the next book.

That isn't to say that the old-timers are all HUGE fans of ADWD. But there does seem to be a lot of "I just watched the show and read the books really super fast and now I can't wait to talk about how I don't want to read the rest of them anymore!"

Take some time. Let it sink in. Pace yourselves. You don't have to go from n00b to uberfan to ultrajaded in the course of one summer, folks.

#1 fanboy response here.

"The new guys don't like it but the purists think it rocks. Though just to make sure I don't sound like a complete fanboy, let me throw in that I don't think all old-timers are huge fans of ADWD. Because I registered on a message board about AsoiF years ago, that means I read the books before those that registered later. I mean it makes perfect sense right?"

/sarcasm.

[DJ Dawn]

#1 fanboy response here.

"The new guys don't like it but the purists think it rocks. Though just to make sure I don't sound like a complete fanboy, let me throw in that I don't think all old-timers are huge fans of ADWD. Because I registered on a message board about AsoiF years ago, that means I read the books before those that registered later. I mean it makes perfect sense right?"

/sarcasm.

Or maybe other people can disagree with you.

There is a huge new guy factor here. You know, with a television show and all?

I WANT WAR!1!!1 Even though we knew going in that it covered the same time period as Feast, which was a peacetime book, but whatevs. You speak for everyone.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

In Dance, we have three build-ups: one for the battle of Meereen, one for the battle of Winterfell, and one for the fallout from Jon's decision to let the wildlings through the Wall. We get the climax to only one of those, the last one. The other two basically end in cliffhangers right before the climaxes. Thus, is it any wonder that many readers are unsatisfied with Dance? And when we finally do read those climaxes in The Winds of Winter, no matter how exciting and well-written they are, I for one will also be thinking "these really should have been in Dance instead of taking up valuable space and pages in Winds."

Ironically, it seems GRRM himself wanted to include at least one of the two missing climaxes in Dance, but was dissuaded from doing so by his editor, Anne Groell. What a screwup on her part.

:agree:

After some contemplation, this is actually my only major complaint about aDwD. Yes,yes, some chapters were too descriptive but honestly, that wasn't a problem while I was reading, and many of GRRM's chapters in previous books were very descriptive as well. I was just listening to Cat's journey up to the Eyrie yesterday and the description there just goes on and on. And I enjoyed the experience of reading this book a lot with all its emotional ups and downs... until the moment I realized that I wasn't going to get any narrative satisfaction out of it. And then I was left just feeling cheated and angry. :bang: :bang:

The thing is, there was a complete story arc in each book prior to a feast for crows. George should have insisted on this. It should have been his first priority. He should have said, "okay editors, tell me what I need to cut to make this complete arc happen in this book." And they should have replied that he needed to cut a major PoV character OR combine events from the existing PoVs. And that should have been that.

They need to make the kinds of hard choices the HBO producers are making. It's unforgivable to leave both of the major climaxes of the book completely unresolved (that is, Stannis' war and Dany's war).

[lezboyd]

I don't understand why certain folks here portray a readers right to feel 'entitled' as such a bad thing. No published writer writes for himself. If that were so, he would be content with a 'Dear Diary'. A writer writes for his audience, and if the audience, the readers, dislike it then he shouldn't be criticizing the reader, but doing a little introspection of his own. Are the readers asking too much from a writer when they want nothing but a swift and satisfactory resolution to all they have been teased to expect?

[DJ Dawn]

I don't understand why certain folks here portray a readers right to feel 'entitled' as such a bad thing. No published writer writes for himself. If that were so, he would be content with a 'Dear Diary'. A writer writes for his audience, and if the audience, the readers, dislike it then he shouldn't be criticizing the reader, but doing a little introspection of his own. Are the readers asking too much from a writer when they want nothing but a swift and satisfactory resolution to all they have been teased to expect?

Rejecting this theory.

You bought his first four books. For that he owed you...his first four books. He does not owe anyone the rest of the series. I would like it much to read the rest, but it is not my right by any means.

Furthermore, we're speaking of the entitlement to the direction of this particular book. As none of us are the author, nor do we know the future of the story, we can't in good conscience say that something must occur for the story to be good. Since the story is still in progress, we can only halfway judge any of it.

Being entitled to good writing? Nope. We got good writing anyway, but it isn't our right. Being entitled to an ending? Nope. One day we'll get it and it will be good, but not our right.

Being entitled to specific events? Hell no. Doesn't even make sense.

[Blaine]

#1 fanboy response here.

"The new guys don't like it but the purists think it rocks. Though just to make sure I don't sound like a complete fanboy, let me throw in that I don't think all old-timers are huge fans of ADWD. Because I registered on a message board about AsoiF years ago, that means I read the books before those that registered later. I mean it makes perfect sense right?"

/sarcasm.

No offense, but if that's the #1 fanboy defense, then fanboys have become remarkably more relaxed.

Not everything is "OMGTHISBOOKWASAWESOME" or "OMGTHISBOOKSUCKS." In my opinion ADWD was a solid book, but not as great as the first three books, but definitely better than AFFC. I don't see why enjoying a book or not enjoying a book makes you a fan boy or a hater. I'd give ADWD a solid B-. Better than average, but I wish it had more of a conclusion.

And no, I don't assume all of the newly registered people are either brand new or read the books years ago. But on a messageboard, you can't really tell that.

But if you mean to say that there aren't a TON of new readers thanks to HBO show, you're insane. And you don't have to be a genius to note there are a ton of people who signed up in this thread like, days ago. And there are a fair number of responses in this thread that say "I just read through all the books for the first time..." My advice to those folks stands. Take some time, re-read the books. Why rush to a polarized opinion?

/no sarcasm at all

[Alexia]

A question for those who think that ADWD is significantly better than AFFC. What brings you to that conclusion?

Is it that it has more of your favored characters? Or is it something else? For the record, while I did enjoy ADWD, I actually would rate AFFC and ADWD about the same and slightly prefer AFFC. Because it continues the KL plotline and has more of the characters I enjoy in it. Whereas I really liked the Northern plotline in ADWD, but it seems somehow even more cliffhanger-centric than AFFC (which is annoying) and the organization of POV characters is a bit wonky.

I like them both, I see them both as middle books and not on a par with the first three (though still very enjoyable) but I reread AFFC a couple times and I don't really see myself doing another complete reread of ADWD anytime too soon. Of some specific plotline chapters, yes, of the whole book, probably not.

[Corrina]

I just absorbed all the books in about a month's worth of reading. I have to say, I can't separate out the narratives from novel to novel, save that I know Game of Thrones because the HBO series parallels the first book.

To me, it all looks like one big MONSTER of a story and GRRM is busy making sure all elements are in play along the way. That includes the Greyjoys, the Kings Landing people, Dead Catelyn and the resolution of her storyline which is tied up with Jaime and Brienne, all the various Starks, Dany, Tyrion and a few others that I've forgotten. So when I stopped A Feast for Crows, pushed the download button for A Dance With Dragons, it just seemed like I was turning yet another page on the overall story.

Because I read it this way, I can't comment on the qualify or lack thereof for each particular book, save that the writing style definitely seemed similar over the course of the books and that I didn't notice any difference in writing style or qualify with Dance with Dragons. I also didn't expect any kind of resolution but I did see pieces moving further into play.

My expectations for the next book is that something is resolved (or goes to absolute hell) in the North, something gets moving in the South to the point where the dragons and the Others eventually come into conflict, and Griff's invasion means yet again more chaos in the central Kingdom. I would guess from the first prologue that the Others are the final battle but with who and with what stakes to come, I have no idea. :)

Reading it this way, I didn't get attached to any particular character but the overall scope of the things. Though with one exception: Barristan. That's because William Marshall was always my favorite English historical character and here's a fantasy version of him come to life. :) I'll be bummed if he dies, though I hope it's with his sword in his hand.

[Knight of Ashes]

A question for those who think that ADWD is significantly better than AFFC. What brings you to that conclusion?

Is it that it has more of your favored characters? Or is it something else? For the record, while I did enjoy ADWD, I actually would rate AFFC and ADWD about the same and slightly prefer AFFC. Because it continues the KL plotline and has more of the characters I enjoy in it. Whereas I really liked the Northern plotline in ADWD, but it seems somehow even more cliffhanger-centric than AFFC (which is annoying) and the organization of POV characters is a bit wonky.

I like them both, I see them both as middle books and not on a par with the first three (though still very enjoyable) but I reread AFFC a couple times and I don't really see myself doing another complete reread of ADWD anytime too soon. Of some specific plotline chapters, yes, of the whole book, probably not.

My feelings are more or less the same; I'm doing a re-read of AFfC right now but have been reluctant to delve into ADwD further. I liked the Jaime chapters and the POV's in Dorne have some things of interest that I missed first time around. The chapters I disliked in Feast were Sam's- mainly because of use of plot devices masquerading as characters like Daereon the singer who was just there to delay the journey . I suppose one could say the same of the characters that were in Brienne's chapters but I found them more interesting than another one of Martin's Asshat singers. And at least the Brienne POVs didn't come in with the same level of expectation and importance that usually goes with Tyrion's (who-much to my surprise-is the main reason I have a dislike for ADwD) and Dany's.

[DragonsHungry]

Rejecting this theory.

You bought his first four books. For that he owed you...his first four books. He does not owe anyone the rest of the series. I would like it much to read the rest, but it is not my right by any means.

Furthermore, we're speaking of the entitlement to the direction of this particular book. As none of us are the author, nor do we know the future of the story, we can't in good conscience say that something must occur for the story to be good. Since the story is still in progress, we can only halfway judge any of it.

Being entitled to good writing? Nope. We got good writing anyway, but it isn't our right. Being entitled to an ending? Nope. One day we'll get it and it will be good, but not our right.

Being entitled to specific events? Hell no. Doesn't even make sense.

I agree with you and I am a critic of the book, notably anything to do with Meereen, but there were really good parts in ADWD. Readers are entitled to nothing, they can choose with their wallets to go elsewhere. GRRM owes us nothing. He can do what he wishes with the story.

On the same respect, if you didn't like the book, you have every right to crush it. I don't owe GRRM a damn thing either, I paid my money for the book. If I don't like something he wrote, I am not obligated to be the "good fan" and say nothing negative. Each person has their own opinions, and in literature, each reader's opinion is the most important opinion to that reader. I am not into blind fandom, and put no author, celebrity, or musician on a pedestal. I may like their work, but that doesn't mean I will like everything they do.

Praise the book, Condemn the Book, Speculate, but I agree, we aren't entitled to anything from GRRM.

I'll read WoW, when it gets done, if I happen to remember, maybe I will like, maybe I won't.

Life goes on, maybe there will be two more books, maybe it will get finished on HBO, and hopefully it gets done before Western Civilization collapses..

[Nihilist]

No offense, but if that's the #1 fanboy defense, then fanboys have become remarkably more relaxed.

Perhaps I should of been more specific. It is the #1 Message Board Fanboy Elitist defense. Better? Here let me quote the trash post you made.

I do find it really weird that so many new people have joined this board in the last 2 months to make their first posts about how they no longer are looking forward to the next book.

What exactly are you saying here? Besides "people who have joined these message boards in the last few months look negatively at aDwD". You are STRONGLY implying that there is something wrong with new users posting negative feelings about the book. As if the amount of negativity coming from new users has to do with their ability to read. Which, btw, I see no evidence of at all. I see about equal number of new people throwing in posts about how good it was as I see posts declaring that aDwD was mediocre or bad. The general consensus seems to be a that the book was inferior to most of the others, but still a quality piece. I have not seen any hint that new users don't follow this trend.

That isn't to say that the old-timers are all HUGE fans of ADWD. But there does seem to be a lot of "I just watched the show and read the books really super fast and now I can't wait to talk about how I don't want to read the rest of them anymore!"

Translation:"I'm not a fanboy, but these people seem like they don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps they should more closely study the material. Real fans, not all of course, but a lot, love the books."

Take some time. Let it sink in. Pace yourselves. You don't have to go from n00b to uberfan to ultrajaded in the course of one summer, folks.

They should learn from ultra gurus like yourself right?

You are basically saying that people who have recently read the books do not understand or appreciate them as much as they would if they had sat on them for awhile. Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I read Feast when it came out and have waited for A Dance with Dragons for what seemed like forever. And I thought the length of time that went by actually made my view of aDwD far more negative. How exactly is reading the books consecutively without the wait making opinions more negative? Your underlying theory makes no sense.

Not everything is "OMGTHISBOOKWASAWESOME" or "OMGTHISBOOKSUCKS." In my opinion ADWD was a solid book, but not as great as the first three books, but definitely better than AFFC. I don't see why enjoying a book or not enjoying a book makes you a fan boy or a hater. I'd give ADWD a solid B-. Better than average, but I wish it had more of a conclusion.

I don't honestly care what your opinion of the book was. It was your message board elitism that annoyed me. And the mistaken theory that being new to a message board A. Means that you just read the books. B. That people who just read the books somehow see it more negatively then longtime users.

And no, I don't assume all of the newly registered people are either brand new or read the books years ago. But on a messageboard, you can't really tell that.

Then we probably shouldn't be making baseless assumptions should we? Oh wait you did just that...

But if you mean to say that there aren't a TON of new readers thanks to HBO show, you're insane. And you don't have to be a genius to note there are a ton of people who signed up in this thread like, days ago. And there are a fair number of responses in this thread that say "I just read through all the books for the first time..." My advice to those folks stands. Take some time, re-read the books. Why rush to a polarized opinion?

There are absolutely more users. Because of both the Tv show and because this is the first book in quite awhile to come out. What I find offensive is the fact that you seem to think these users are overly negative in their reviews BECAUSE they MIGHT have recently read the books. Which is a completely ridiculous position to have.

[lezboyd]

Rejecting this theory.

You bought his first four books. For that he owed you...his first four books. He does not owe anyone the rest of the series. I would like it much to read the rest, but it is not my right by any means.

What does this even mean?

As none of us are the author, nor do we know the future of the story, we can't in good conscience say that something must occur for the story to be good.

Fair enough, but only just. We cannot tell him the future of the story, but we can definitely point out that we do not want to read a detailed explanation of each and every tokar Dany wears, and the facial make-up and body type and hair color of each and every diseased beggar a POV character meets. What must occur for the story to be good is a decent enough pace. That is Writing 101, pal.

Since the story is still in progress, we can only halfway judge any of it.

This is about judging the book (not the story), and how much the book contributed towards taking the story forward.

Being entitled to good writing? Nope. We got good writing anyway, but it isn't our right. Being entitled to an ending? Nope. One day we'll get it and it will be good, but not our right.

Being entitled to specific events? Hell no. Doesn't even make sense.

Again, whatever that means! But, how about my right to criticize the weak points of the book that I paid 39$ to read, and my right to say I invested time and money behind this story because I believe in it, waited for so long because I believed in you, and I did not get resolutions, pace or a coercive narrative? I do not mean "I wanted to see Dragons spewing fire everywhere and you did not give me that", or "I wanted a foursome between Tyrion, Victarion, Dany and Quentyn but you did not give me that", etc. I mean I expected a repeat of ASoS in terms of taking the story forward and I did not get that.

And, when did this become a 'rights' issue anyway?

[lezboyd]

A question for those who think that ADWD is significantly better than AFFC. What brings you to that conclusion?

Is it that it has more of your favored characters? Or is it something else? For the record, while I did enjoy ADWD, I actually would rate AFFC and ADWD about the same and slightly prefer AFFC. Because it continues the KL plotline and has more of the characters I enjoy in it. Whereas I really liked the Northern plotline in ADWD, but it seems somehow even more cliffhanger-centric than AFFC (which is annoying) and the organization of POV characters is a bit wonky.

I like them both, I see them both as middle books and not on a par with the first three (though still very enjoyable) but I reread AFFC a couple times and I don't really see myself doing another complete reread of ADWD anytime too soon. Of some specific plotline chapters, yes, of the whole book, probably not.

:agree: Couldn't have put it any better.

[alguien]

What does this even mean?

Seems pretty clear to me.

blah blah blah bizarre persecution complex and misplaced aggression blah

Chill out man.

[Nihilist]

Seems pretty clear to me.

Chill out man.

I can't understand half of what DJ types. I would not be surprised if English is not his first language. So lezboyd posts seem quite appropriate to me.

[Guest]

Plus he is not a literary writer who can produce one book every ten or twenty years and be lauded for it - he is a genre writer who produces a mass market fantasy series. And in this market if you start a fantasy series you do not generally take 5 or 6 years to deliver each book. Can anyone name any other significant fantasy or SF writer who gets away with that?

I so agree. If your aim is to tell an epic story over multiple books, as a fantasy writer you had better expect to get it out in a reasonable amount of time. It's just the demands of the genre. Young fantasy writers are told to cut their first books down. Then if its a hit, they're told to plump their books up to make it a multi-volume series to sell more books. Then the contract usually stipulates a number of books in a certain amount time. If struggling fantasy authors have to endure the rigors of this market, why shouldn't all fantasy authors open their ears to the demands of the public throughout their publishing career? I would even argue that this type of rigor imposed by the publishing industry can keep authors sharp and on point (case in point: Book 1). Other writers detest it, but they recognize that they have to adapt. We have deadlines, and if we blow them we put our jobs at risk.

So just look at what message this novel sends to hundreds of burgeoning writers: "Hey, once you've 'made it' in this genre, you can dick around, put out half a book without a climax, make cheesy cliffhangers your trademark, fall in love with your own tedious phrases, and surround yourself with yes-men publishers!" The assumption behind MAKING IT crafts a world where authors are respected as literary auteurs because they no longer have an obligation to the readers. Martin is attempting to stride both the Hollywood mass market and the literary fiction genre, and both transcend a grassroots connection to the readership where the fear of failing your fans is substantially diminished. So, does Martin considers himself part of that burgeoning writer's community of fantasy nerds? I'm not so sure. He's definitely Mr. Hotshot Hollywood now, and that kind of environment changes people's art, no matter what they say to the contrary.

Aside: I've always preferred Joe Abercrombie as a person to GRRM, but after putting out 5 awesome books in 5 years, he may just be my role model as a writer too; someone who I want to emulate in good writing in addition to knowing his market. He's also quite obsessive about what people think of his books, seeking out even the contrary opinions. I love that quality in a writer: the curious need to know how your words resonate with people. Isn't that how writers improve? Martin seems to have no curiosity whatsoever in that regard.

Sadly ADWD raises the question of whether maybe George is now too good a writer to do this type of genre fiction any more - perhaps he is bored with the limitations he has set himself by embarking on such a monster of a series and should be allowed to do something that does interest and inspire him. Who else would be expected to devote 20+ years of their life to just one single project?

Oooooh yeah, just speaking for myself--writing a dissertation over a 12 month period is excruciating. So I sympathize a tiny bit until I realize: oh wait, he's paid megabucks to do what he loves (or originally loved?), and I'm doing it because I'm poor. I'll stay that way no matter how many dissertations I write.