[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[alguien]

It seems this is the point we can not agree.

The long wait emphasizes the lack of quality of ADwD IMO.

And that's, frankly, odd. As I said, noticing the posts in this thread from readers completely new to the series who didn't have to wait, their opinions are much higher than yours. Because its not the quality of the book, its that you are upset you hate to wait so long to read it.

Because you can not argue that it was a rushed product, or somehow due to publisher pressure, economic needs or whatever.

Yeah, I can argue with that. Quite a bit actually. Please don't make declarative statements like this. By all accounts this was more of a perfectionist struggle than nearly any fantasy book I've ever heard about. Have you read the author's account I linked to earlier? It flies in the face of what you're saying here.

ADwD was the best Martin could do in eleven years. Writing this makes me pretty sad.

No offense, but I really dislike misleading statements like this. You had two books in 11 years. Actually, more like 2.5 if you count the chapters moved to TWoW and a third Dunk and Egg story.

And, I don't know what else you like to read in fantasy, but I still don't find the majority of current genre books out there nearly as compelling as ADWD. I'm fine with how GRRM's done in the past decade. My reading experience has been enriched by it.

[alguien]

And a last word to The Wait which built expectations to Dance. Of course it did and the reader is entitled to these anticipations.

A reader is entitled to nothing. You make the decision to buy the book. GRRM owes it to himself and his publishers to make it the best book he can. That's really all there is to the equation.

Martin himself built the anticipation and the high expectation: "you can't rush art" "it's ready when it's ready to be the perfect book"

Please direct me to these quotes...?

Pah, I say. It is rushed and bloated and mediocre, a crying shame.

I say its a fun read. Not the best in the series, but a damn good one none the less. And judging from the reactions, reviews, sales, etc., MOST people are in agreement with me.

The opinion, that it is rushed, sub-standard "product", is the minority.

[Lord Eddard]

MOST people are in agreement with me.

The opinion, that it is rushed, sub-standard "product", is the minority.

Wrong.

[Brucolac]

Being a new member here doesn't mean you are new to the series. I just joined but I read GoT in 98 and have gotten every other book the day it was released. ADWD being released was the impetus for me joining these boards, but only because I was dissatisfied with it and was looking around online for other people's thoughts about it after finishing.

The wait for FFC was almost as long, and I have far less problems with it than I do with ADwD. The one problem I had was I thought the Brienne POV was too much of a tangent. Though I don't dislike her or find these chapters uninteresting, they would have been best left unpursued-upon receiving her fool's errand from Jaime, I think it would have been a good time to just make her disappear rather then having us trek along with her. After finishing ADWD, I realized that I should get used to the tangents taking the focus or stop reading. Even if that was the only problem; I might have been okay with it, but GRRM backed it up with gimmiky cliffhangers, endless repetition of catch phrases, pointless description and much fouler language than usual(not a prude, but I don't think c*nt needs to be used 50 times in a book much less in one chapter). Maybe he considers this adding realism, but give me the fantasy if that is the case. I think people are brushing over how poorly written this book is compared to his others works just because it deals with the POVs that they find more interesting.

[Lord Eddard]

A reader is entitled to nothing. You make the decision to buy the book. GRRM owes it to himself and his publishers to make it the best book he can. That's really all there is to the equation.

To answer the expectation argument once and for all, I expected a good book. I got a rushed, bloated and mediocre one. Hence my disappointment.

Now even you - with obviously no expectations and thus no disappointment - wouldn't tell me it is my fault that I expected a good book from Martin, or would you?

Btw, your immature argument, you're right because MOST people seemingly agree with you because they bought the book - are you really trying to make a stand here and argue with sales figures? I bought the book too and I didn't like it! That hundreds of thousands buy a book doesn't mean they LIKE the book, it means they liked the previous ones and/or the HBO show.

The fallout from this one will be felt in the future - look to Crossroads of Twilight if you don't believe me.

[Lord Eddard]

GRRM backed it up with gimmiky cliffhangers, endless repetition of catch phrases, pointless description [...] I think people are brushing over how poorly written this book is compared to his others works just because it deals with the POVs that they find more interesting.

My thoughts exactly. The quality of writing suffered massively in Dance. Feast was not so exciting in parts but at least the writing was still great.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

A question for those who think that ADWD is significantly better than AFFC. What brings you to that conclusion?

Is it that it has more of your favored characters? Or is it something else? For the record, while I did enjoy ADWD, I actually would rate AFFC and ADWD about the same and slightly prefer AFFC. Because it continues the KL plotline and has more of the characters I enjoy in it. Whereas I really liked the Northern plotline in ADWD, but it seems somehow even more cliffhanger-centric than AFFC (which is annoying) and the organization of POV characters is a bit wonky.

It's hard to separate, because, yes, my favorite part of the story is Dany's storyline, and I think that the story at the wall is the most important storyline. However, if I was going to rank my favorite remaining PoV's after aSoS they are Dany, Jaime, and Sansa.

To me, aFfC is far worse because it did absolutely nothing to advance what I consider to be the central story. To me the Central Story is the fact that Winter is Coming and someone is going to have to save Westeros from The Wights. Yes I know everyone loves the political story, but to me that's all just frustration that is getting in the way of more important things - much like politics in real life.

aDwD did a LOT to advance this plot. Not quite enough for my taste, but still a lot. Stannis is doing shit, trying to unite the North, and Jon is trying to make the Wall ready for battle. YES. Dany is fucking stuck in a Meereen quagmire and needs to get out of there so she can save everyone, and people are coming to help her achieve that goal. And mean while she's flailing and realizing that peacetime rulership fucking sucks! YES. Tyrion's wandering around, but unlike Brienne's wanderings we know he's going the right direction, and he ALMOST GETS THERE (plus Jorah, woo). Overall, there was a constantly building tension that SOMETHING BIG WOULD HAPPEN... I never felt this reading affc. (It was SUPER disappointing that we never really got to any climax (well except Drogon I suppose), But the build up was great and exciting.) Also I felt that Quentyn's chapters >>>>>>> Arianne's if we're gonna do a Dorne character faceoff, lol.

aFfC did literally nothing to keep me interested - there was no big picture whatsoever. Even the two big climaxes turned out to be fake (Cersei gets out of jail and Brienne isn't dead). As for the individual chapters,

Cersei I felt like... they ruined this previously interesting character for me, and all she's doing is fucking shit up so she can be taken down more easily.

Sam... why even have PoV, just put him in Oldtown. Seriously. He didn't even see anything important along the way unlike other "filler" PoV's I can think of from previous books.

Brienne I feel similarly about - I think that we could have done it all from Jaime's PoV.

Jaime and Sansa's chapters were fun to read because I love them, but to be honest for both of them I felt that their last chapters in aSoS achieved more than the half dozen or so they each had in aFfC.

My thoughts exactly. The quality of writing suffered massively in Dance. Feast was not so exciting in parts but at least the writing was still great.

Nah, Feast's writing was at least as poor.

[lezboyd]

A reader is entitled to nothing. You make the decision to buy the book. GRRM owes it to himself and his publishers to make it the best book he can. That's really all there is to the equation.

Tell me something...who does an established chef cook for? For himself? For his line cooks? For the restaurant manager? Or, is it for his patrons? If a patron sends a dish back because it is not up to the restaurant's usual standards, do you say the patron is not entitled to it? The chef owes it to himself and his restaurant to make the best dish he can for his patrons, because without them, he would be swatting flies in an empty restaurant.

So, who does a published writer write for, pray tell? For himself? For his publisher and editor? Or, for his readers?

I say its a fun read. Not the best in the series, but a damn good one none the less. And judging from the reactions, reviews, sales, etc., MOST people are in agreement with me.

The sales figure reflect the reader's reaction to his previous work. The sales figures for his next book will determine the reader's reaction to this book.

The opinion, that it is rushed, sub-standard "product", is the minority.

Wrong!

aDwD did a LOT to advance this plot.

Really? Given what was teased in the previous two books and through the media hype, it did bub-kiss to advance the plot. Dany was reduced to a lazy ruler who keeps her biggest assets locked up (dragons), Victarion to a serial-drowner, Tyrion to a slave and a follower with only a fraction of his cunning coming into play, and Jon to a stubborn man obsessed with nothing but saving wildlings.

AFfC gave us POVs of characters that were not our favorites, but it advanced the plot and the writing did not suffer. ADwD on the other end took all of our favorite POV characters and turned them to mush, and topped it with lengthy descriptions, and repetitive lines, plot-devices, as well as shockers ('killed' another Stark, how ingenious!) To me, that is a bigger crime, so to speak.

[alguien]

Wrong.

Uh, OK? Great argument. Way to cite your evidence and make your point!

Looking at all available evidence, including Goodreads, iTunes Bookstore, Barnes & Noble, (all overwhelmingly positive), Amazon (where the majority of review are still positive), reviews, and sales, ADWD is a well-received success.

But I guess since a few people on the internet dislike it, that's what counts, right?

To answer the expectation argument once and for all, I expected a good book. I got a rushed, bloated and mediocre one. Hence my disappointment.

Now even you - with obviously no expectations and thus no disappointment - wouldn't tell me it is my fault that I expected a good book from Martin, or would you?

I would tell you that I completely disagree with your assessment and have yet to read any substantive criticism from you, unlike One Hand Clapping. I would state that many people's expectations were influenced by a long wait, which I don't agree with. Whether or not you were, I can't say.

Btw, your immature argument, you're right because MOST people seemingly agree with you because they bought the book - are you really trying to make a stand here and argue with sales figures? I bought the book too and I didn't like it! That hundreds of thousands buy a book doesn't mean they LIKE the book, it means they liked the previous ones and/or the HBO show.

That's not my argument. As I stated, the majority of reviews and ratings, be they professional, on Amazon, on Goodreads,iBooks, or B&N, are positive. I've yet to see any evidence to support your contention.

The fallout from this one will be felt in the future - look to Crossroads of Twilight if you don't believe me.

Exactly. Even on Amazon, the sole metric you seem to be using, ADWD is doing much better than Crossroads.

[alguien]

Tell me something...who does an established chef cook for? For himself? For his line cooks? For the restaurant manager? Or, is it for his patrons? If a patron sends a dish back because it is not up to the restaurant's usual standards, do you say the patron is not entitled to it? The chef owes it to himself and his restaurant to make the best dish he can for his patrons, because without them, he would be swatting flies in an empty restaurant.

So, who does a published writer write for, pray tell? For himself? For his publisher and editor? Or, for his readers?

Well the fact that you think a writer is the same as an indentured servant explains a lot.

I do agree people are free to express their dissatisfaction by no longer buying an author's books. Seriously doubt that's gonna happen with Winds of Winter though.

Wrong!

Again, everywhere I've checked, even Amazon, the ratings are positive. Everywhere. Please tell me how I'm wrong.

Really? Given what was teased in the previous two books and through the media hype, it did bub-kiss to advance the plot. Dany was reduced to a lazy ruler who keeps her biggest assets locked up (dragons), Victarion to a serial-drowner, Tyrion to a slave and a follower with only a fraction of his cunning coming into play, and Jon to a stubborn man obsessed with nothing but saving wildlings.

Tbh, I was a little frustrated with Dany myself, but the Barristan chapters made up for it. And the dragon-riding was cool. Quentyn's stuff did drag a bit for me. I will admit, his is the only POV I've yet to re-read.

Victarion, I never really cared about. I was surprised we got chapters from him and puzzled that he couldn't figure out the mute chick was poisoning his wound. Kinda got a kick out of him killing slavers, tho.

Tyrion I thought was in good form. I was disappointed that he didn't meet Dany, but I thought he used his wits as well as he ever does, especially considering the circumstances.

Theon, Asha, and Davos were fun. Cersei could have waited until next book. Same with Jaime. I guess we know Brienne is alive, but I'm sick of that cliffhanger. LOVED the epilogue.

As for Jon though, this is the same Lord Commander who figured out how to make peace with the wildings, save them, deny his enemy troop fodder, man ALL the Wall fortress's, while keeping all his men fed, and make the Watch that much stronger than it's been in hundreds of years? Jon's stuff was my favorite in the book. Though I did think there's something to the criticism that his character was a bit off in the last chapter. The vow break did feel a little abrupt.

[lezboyd]

Well the fact that you think a writer is the same as an indentured servant explains a lot.

A 'chef', as in a Gourmet restaurant owning, cook-book publishing, TV show producing celebrity, not a 'cook' like Three Fingers Hobb.

[Ryan E]

My anticipation is huge, can't wait to read it... but I know I'll have to wait a few years for it. Still, I'm really pumped for it, I just started reading the Dunk and Egg stories after long last.

[alguien]

A 'chef', as in a Gourmet restaurant owning, cook-book publishing, TV show producing celebrity, not a 'cook' like Three Fingers Hobb.

I still think its a flawed metaphor, since eating is something that must be done daily to survive and reading is a leisure activity, and cooking for someone is a SERVICE industry while writing a book isn't. You can't eat the exact same meal over and over and analyze the composition, whereas with reading you can read the exact passage as many times as you like. Critiquing a meal is a palette-based experience that is immediate and daily.

But in any event, if ADWD was a fifth "restaurant" chain with GRRM as the "cook", the majority of the "reviews" are still good.

And sure, if you didn't like the "meal", its sensible to "eat" elsewhere.

ETA:

My anticipation is huge, can't wait to read it... but I know I'll have to wait a few years for it. Still, I'm really pumped for it, I just started reading the Dunk and Egg stories after long last.

They're a lot of fun! :thumbsup:

[lezboyd]

I still think its a flawed metaphor...elsewhere.

I suppose taking a metaphor literally would also be considered flawed, and somewhat deflective. But if that is the way you want to play it, fine by me.

[One Hand Clapping]

Some people do seem to take the indentured servant line - I don't.

This is capitalism, books are commodities like any other, George writes them to make a living.

When he secured sales (and eventually) a TV contract generous enough for him not to have to churn out 500 pages a year to pay the bills he reduced his output dramatically.

In a similar position anyone who is getting on in years and wants to get the maximum fulfilment out what's left of their life does exactly the same thing.

And sure he spends a lot of the time that he used to spend writing ASOIAF books doing other work that probably pay little or nothing (cons, signings, short stories, Wild Cards, editing a Jack Vance tribute etc) but that interest him more - again who wouldn't do that if they had the money.

This is all absolutely basic rational choice economics and complaining about it is absurd (unless you are willing to demand the overthrow the entire capitalist system which I guess most of you probably aren't - yet - but even a socialist revolution is unlikely to get George to write any faster)

What does annoy me though is the refusal of George, his publishers and his loyalists here and elsewhere to admit that anything has changed.

OK George and the publishers at least have sound commercial reasons for pretending that this was 'as perfect a book as it could be' and that the series is on course to be finished before HBO overtakes it - but the fans have no such motivation.

Do you really think that giving the book an honest 3 or 4-star review at amazon rather than a gushing 5 will somehow cause George to give up in disgust and refuse to write another word?

That to me shows more contempt for George than those of us who are slating the last book because we honestly didn't think it was anywhere near as good as its predecessors.

EDIT - the chef analogy works only if you assume that the half of your patrons who tell you as they leave that the meal that you served them (after an excruciatingly long wait which no other restaurant in town would have inflicted on you and for which you received no apology other than 'it was just a real bitch to cook man - you should have seen how happy chef was when he finally chucked that mother down on that plate and dashed out the door') was poor or mediocre will in fact keep coming back for more.

[Linus Chan]

So like many others, i didn't start the series until a few weeks after the end of the HBO series.

And i think DoD was fantastic. I think perhaps the wait and the knowledge that there may not be another book for a few more years sort of colors the expectation. DoD is a middle book, it is not supposed to resolve threads, it is there for character development and to create tension.

AGOT and SoS did a fantastic job of setting up the crises, and subsequently FoC and DoD deepens some of the crisis, and then lets us all get a better look at the characters involved. We learn quite a bit about Jon, and Dany. And of course we aren't supposed to love both characters even more. We should get annoyed with them, we should be yelling out, "STOP ACTING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL DANY!" we should be groaning, "Damnnit Jon!!"

This doesn't mean the book isn't without flaws... i am seriously worried that GRRM has a thing for zombies, and the baby switching really is getting distracting. And yes, i was ready to throw the book against the wall (and it was in my IPAD) when i read the last Jon chapter. But i loved the book, and i think the plot movement in the next 2 books will be great.

[alguien]

I suppose taking a metaphor literally would also be considered flawed, and somewhat deflective. But if that is the way you want to play it, fine by me.

Yes, God forbid I examine your metaphor and poke holes in its faulty logic. My bad.

[alguien]

When he secured sales (and eventually) a TV contract generous enough for him not to have to churn out 500 pages a year to pay the bills he reduced his output dramatically.

I guess I wonder if you read the link I put up about the process of writing Dance. I really recommend you check it out. In it he states that he was having structural problems well before a TV deal was ever going forward.

In a similar position anyone who is getting on in years and wants to get the maximum fulfilment out what's left of their life does exactly the same thing.

And sure he spends a lot of the time that he used to spend writing ASOIAF books doing other work that probably pay little or nothing (cons, signings, short stories, Wild Cards, editing a Jack Vance tribute etc) but that interest him more - again who wouldn't do that if they had the money.

I honestly think this is a very faulty assumption. Either your accusing the author of lying on his own blog or you're unaware of what he wrote there or has said in interviews. (or your GRRM's alt, you sneaky guy)

What does annoy me though is the refusal of George, his publishers and his loyalists here and elsewhere to admit that anything has changed.

OK George and the publishers at least have sound commercial reasons for pretending that this was 'as perfect a book as it could be' and that the series is on course to be finished before HBO overtakes it - but the fans have no such motivation.

Do you really think that giving the book an honest 3 or 4-star review at amazon rather than a gushing 5 will somehow cause George to give up in disgust and refuse to write another word?

That to me shows more contempt for George than those of us who are slating the last book because we honestly didn't think it was anywhere near as good as its predecessors.

Read the post just below yours. Consider its just that there are a substantial amount of readers who just did not feel the same way you did about the book. Not saying ADWD is flawless, but perhaps others just don't find it as flawed as you.

[Lady of Long Lake]

My anticipation was zero until I found this forum. Reading about Jon here has given me hope for his future. I'm so thankful I found this place because I was very saddened by the last book and was done with the series. Losing Ned was depressing but losing Jon was demoralizing.

[Corrina]

I thought Dany's story was there for a number of reasons. The first being that the entire story is a rumination on the proper use of power. Tywin is effective but brutal, Robert is careless, Ned seems to be someone who had it right for his small area until he got in over his head, Cersei and Joffrey just use it for their benefit.

Both Dany and Jon seem to be trying to use their power to better the lives around them. What Dany learned is that personal charisma and brute force have their limits especially in trying to change an ancient system. I enjoyed the parallels to the modern day problems in creating democracies in areas that have never had one--and if it's even the desirable thing. Jon uses his power a little more effectively but he runs into the same problem that Dany does: incredible resistance to change.

So, to me, that's what made this latest book fit in so well with the rest of the series. So far, the ruler we've seen do the best for his people seems to be Doran Martell. And if I had to guess, that's where GRRM's own views lie. For Dany & Jon, their mis-steps and lessons here seem absolutely vital to what will happen to them later, whether they learn the right lessons or the wrong ones. Each could easily turn tyrant.

But that's why I say the story seems one *huge* tapestry to me, rather than a series of novels. Sorta like a collection of single issues of a comic book that is then collected into a trade paperback. Of course, in this case, there are years between the comics. But they all seem a pretty seamless whole so far. GRRM's writing style is the same--I get bored very quickly with all the descriptions but that was all the way back to Bran's climbing around Winterfell...my eyes glazed over after two pages. Good thing all the show had to do was create a set and *show* him climbing. That worked better for me. But this flaw of his with description and being bogged down, well, it seems to be it's the same as it always was. I expect the next book will have it too and I'll end up skimming those parts as well.

But his main asset, to make a reader feel what a character feels, seems completely intact in this latest installment, from Tyrion's fight against the 'gray" men and his unhinged mental state to Dany's confusion about why people would be so cruel to change, to Jon's frustrations with those who didn't listen. Barristan comes in at the end with a mature perspective on it all--he's not shocked or appalled, he just knows he's not made for it. He can do it but it kills him. Which raises the question of whether Dany can do it or if it will kill her.

But, yeah, I'm not seeing a downward spiral. More like a writer trying to make sure the character arcs are complete. In Jon's case, not sure I buy his final decision. That might be the only flaw in the book for me but then, there have been a couple of other decisions like that I didn't buy. The first being Catelyn's decision to let Jaime free. I know, the reasons are all there but...I still didn't buy it.