[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[iamthedave]

Well I've read it once, and am now reading it a second time, and the second time really emphasizes some of the weaker points. The re-used phrases grates bad after a while, the cliffhangers seem more and more disingenuous as it goes along, and the 'ending's if we must use the word are all really weak as well. Not because of the writing but because they're unbelievable.

There is a huge amount of fat in Dance, and that equally becomes obvious on a second reading.

I never had to wait for Dance, I only read the series two years back. And that only means those first readings are fresher in my mind and I can appreciate how much worse Dance is than the first volumes.

In a way, Dance feels like it's big to hide the fact it largely has nothing to say. It suffers a lot from 'shouldn't I be reading someone else who's important?' syndrome, which hurt AFFC as well.

Theon, Dany and Jon are the thematically valid storylines, but Dany's is pretty unengaging (again, worse on a second reading), Jon's is pretty good IMO, and Theon's I think is among Martin's strongest writing in the series.

The bright side is that it FEELS like everything is coming together now, and that TWOW will see some resolutions (except ones involving Dany, who it seems may be going off to Volantis. Or Myr. Or the beach. Maybe Ibiza. Who knows? So long as it's not Westeros I'm sure she'll head for it like an arrow)

EDIT: In the end, I feel Martin made a huge mistake by writing one plot split across two continents. Or maybe more accurately: one plot whose main character is a continent away from it.

[Lord Eddard]

Can you be specific? I'm really curious now where you felt I was being dishonest.

ETA (which means 'edited to add'): I'm fairly positive I never wrote it was "universally cherished"

Out of your last 14 posts, 12 have been edited, most of them after people replied to them. You're the ONLY ONE doing so in this thread, all the other participants in this sometimes heated discussion edit hardly at all, most of them NOT AT ALL. You know why? You know why in a lot of forums it is not permitted to edit at all?

Because you lose your credibility when you edit everything afterwards nice and shiny and no one feels comfortable arguing with you any more. How many I never said this or that have you used here when cornered? The "universally cherished" is only the last of those. I would bother to go back and count them all but wait - you probably edited them all out already.

I don't consider you an honest commenter any more and won't take part in further discussions with you.

[Lord Eddard]

I never had to wait for Dance, I only read the series two years back. And that only means those first readings are fresher in my mind and I can appreciate how much worse Dance is than the first volumes.

Thank you. Another nail in the coffin for the argument, the book is as good as the other and only the long wait is responsible for the bad ratings.

I felt the same as you after I read Dance right after Feast. The drop in quality (from Feast, not from Storm mind you!) is appalling.

[alguien]

Out of your last 14 posts, 12 have been edited, most of them after people replied to them. You're the ONLY ONE doing so in this thread, all the other participants in this sometimes heated discussion edit hardly at all, most of them NOT AT ALL. You know why? You know why in a lot of forums it is not permitted to edit at all?

So... you have no evidence of me being dishonest. Because I wasn't. But thanks for accusing me of lying.

Because you lose your credibility when you edit everything afterwards nice and shiny and no one feels comfortable arguing with you any more. How many I never said this or that have you used here when cornered? The "universally cherished" is only the last of those. I would bother to go back and count them all but wait - you probably edited them all out already.

I don't get any comments about my honesty at all. [ETA: and I've been posting here for a few years.] While I may change a word or two, clean up grammar, or take out anything I've said that I subsequently feel is inflammatory, I NEVER change the substance of my debates. I try to be very consistent about this. I defy you to prove otherwise.

ETA: though I suppose I should be more consistent and just put "ETA" in front of all edits. I'll take that into consideration.

ETA: And I never said "universally cherished" when talking about ADWD. I've never thought it was. Now you're being quite dishonest and its very poor form.

I don't consider you an honest commenter any more and won't take part in further discussions with you.

Translation: "I'm losing a debate with you so I'm picking up my toys and going home!" :tantrum:

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

ETA:

Thank you. Another nail in the coffin for the argument, the book is as good as the other and only the long wait is responsible for the bad ratings.

I felt the same as you after I read Dance right after Feast. The drop in quality (from Feast, not from Storm mind you!) is appalling.

Wow, way to ignore the 20+ posts that have said otherwise. You're amazing.

[Linus Chan]

There is a huge amount of fat in Dance, and that equally becomes obvious on a second reading.

I never had to wait for Dance, I only read the series two years back. And that only means those first readings are fresher in my mind and I can appreciate how much worse Dance is than the first volumes.

In a way, Dance feels like it's big to hide the fact it largely has nothing to say. It suffers a lot from 'shouldn't I be reading someone else who's important?' syndrome, which hurt AFFC as well.

Theon, Dany and Jon are the thematically valid storylines, but Dany's is pretty unengaging (again, worse on a second reading), Jon's is pretty good IMO, and Theon's I think is among Martin's strongest writing in the series.

The bright side is that it FEELS like everything is coming together now, and that TWOW will see some resolutions (except ones involving Dany, who it seems may be going off to Volantis. Or Myr. Or the beach. Maybe Ibiza. Who knows? So long as it's not Westeros I'm sure she'll head for it like an arrow)

I agree largely with you. But i just come out of it, enjoying what we do in fact get out of Dance.

We get Bran's story moving along, and one that holds quite a bit of potential and promise. We get Theon's development as a character and as a potential player. We see the development of one of the most creepy and yet still convincing depictions of a villain. And while i don't like cliffhangers and Martin's apparent love for creating fear in his readers, Jon's story up to the end was fascinating. So often, when our heroes get promoted to leader, they suddenly shine and all the men love him/her. My expectation that the Others would attack just as the morale of the NW was at the brink of mutiny was thwarted. Is this good? bad? Who knows, but this was definitely planned. Here we got a very different story even as we were thinking that Jon was right.

And to be honest, on rereading the humiliation and treatment of Cersei.. is kinda amazing.

The weaker parts of the book were on the Essos side, no doubt. Tyrion's development seems a bit stuck, Dany's was frustrating, and the death of Dorne's young prince, seemed to invoke little to no feeling.

I guess i don't relate much to the complaints that the plot didn't progress.

Well sure, the FINAL storyline, i.e. the invasion of the Others, the Return of the Dragon, and Jon's parentage didn't progress, but were people really surprised by that? If i had to pinpoint my main complaint, it would be that in Book 5, when we were all hoping for threads to tighten and a clearer way forward on what to expect, what we got instead was the introduction of new questions and mysteries, the sudden revival of the Faith, etc. But i suspect that after the series is done, it will be the introduction of these mysteries and the development of Cersei, Jon, Bran's "training" and Melisandre that will end up standing out in the series.

[Tom Sawyer]

Heck, Brandon Sanderson might give George a run for his money if the downhill slide continues like this.

Hey, if the downwards slide continues for too much longer, Sanderson might be doing a hell of a lot more than that. :wideeyed:

[hotweaselsoup]

Well, I really loved ADWD, so you can put me in the column that is eagerly awaiting the next one.

[Lord Eddard]

Hey, if the downwards slide continues for too much longer, Sanderson might be doing a hell of a lot more than that. :wideeyed:

I wish George a hundred years of health and happiness but you're right of course, it could come to that. Before Dance I would have been outraged by the mere thought of Sanderson taking over but now I'm not so sure any more. Dance was bloated and full of filler while Sanderson on the other hand did quite a good job of tightening the story with The Gathering Storm.

[DragonsHungry]

Well I've read it once, and am now reading it a second time, and the second time really emphasizes some of the weaker points. The re-used phrases grates bad after a while, the cliffhangers seem more and more disingenuous as it goes along, and the 'ending's if we must use the word are all really weak as well. Not because of the writing but because they're unbelievable.

There is a huge amount of fat in Dance, and that equally becomes obvious on a second reading.

I never had to wait for Dance, I only read the series two years back. And that only means those first readings are fresher in my mind and I can appreciate how much worse Dance is than the first volumes.

In a way, Dance feels like it's big to hide the fact it largely has nothing to say. It suffers a lot from 'shouldn't I be reading someone else who's important?' syndrome, which hurt AFFC as well.

Theon, Dany and Jon are the thematically valid storylines, but Dany's is pretty unengaging (again, worse on a second reading), Jon's is pretty good IMO, and Theon's I think is among Martin's strongest writing in the series.

The bright side is that it FEELS like everything is coming together now, and that TWOW will see some resolutions (except ones involving Dany, who it seems may be going off to Volantis. Or Myr. Or the beach. Maybe Ibiza. Who knows? So long as it's not Westeros I'm sure she'll head for it like an arrow)

EDIT: In the end, I feel Martin made a huge mistake by writing one plot split across two continents. Or maybe more accurately: one plot whose main character is a continent away from it.

Pretty much my issue with ADWD. I just didn't care about what was going on in Meereen. You have an incompetent army sieging a city that isn't important to the overall main plot on Westeros, and I really could care less if it or its enemies survive. Now Tyrion's POV's are being sucked into that lame city.

Even Dany's revelation at the end, she didn't belong in Meereen, isn't really much of a revelation because you know she will wander around Essos more in WoW with the Dothrakyi, likely go see the crones, lament on her sellsword, change outfits, etc., etc.

Reading Dany has become like taking a child with ADHD and no medication through a toy store to use the restroom.

After this book, I really don't care if she ever arrives on Westeros. I suppose her "Gandalf/Aragorn" type save the day moment will happen in the last book, but as far as the character, she is just the "Princess who is too late." I really liked her in AGOT and ACOK, but when she stayed in Meereen in ASOS, I started to groan and hoped this was very temporary.

Quentyn's death wasn't some "big shock", it was rather predicatable, unsympathetic, and uninspiring, and unless some big Dorne reaction/events will happen due to it in the next book, it will be a big waste of time.

Most of the other POV's were good, the problem was that two of the three main characters had pretty ho-hum arcs.

[oneeye]

I agree with other posts, if the 6th book has all povs moving forward again at the same time instead of split up it will be awesome.

[Miryana Storm]

My emotional investment hasn't yet reached the point of evaporation it did with Wheel of Time, where I went from buying hardback to getting the newer books from the library years after publication out of a vague desire to find out what had happened. I still feel very strongly about the series and am terribly eager to read TWOW in, oh, 2013-14 (please!) and learn what happens to my favourite characters. But I also agree strongly with those who feel that ADWD was seriously hurt by the lack of the conflict/climax/resolution structure that was present in books 1-3. For example, I hate Theon the character, but still consider him a high point of ADWD because his arc, in terms of both character development and plot, felt natural and complete; it set up future potential without relying too much on cheap cliffhangers or the withholding of information from the reader.

[Tom Sawyer]

My emotional investment hasn't yet reached the point of evaporation it did with Wheel of Time, where I went from buying hardback to getting the newer books from the library years after publication out of a vague desire to find out what had happened.

That about sums it up for me too. Even after Feast, I spent years making daily or weekly visits to Martin's website in the hopes that the old message from 2007 would be gone and we'd finally be getting the new book and I almost peed myself earlier this year when I saw that it was finally being published. Now, I have a vague desire to find out what happens and would like to read the upcoming books to find that out, but my level of anticipation has dropped dramatically.

As another example, I was walking past a bookstore the other day and saw that Goodkind had released another Sword of Truth book. My reaction was "Oh, that's mildly interesting. Maybe I'll get around to borrowing it one day". I certainly wouldn't shell out cash for a hardback copy of it, though. I'm not quite at that point with this series, but one more dud would about put me there.

[Jarakka]

Hello everyone. I'm new to westeros.org, but I read AGOT, ACOK, ASOS and AFFC about 3-4 years ago and have been waiting for ADWD ever since.

Yesterday I finally finished ADWD and for some reason I just had to see what other people thought about it. I'm not really surprised to see that people are disappointed with this one, but personally, I don't think it was bad, far from it. Not as good as the first 3 ones, no, but I didn't feel cheated or got the urge to use the book as a throwing missile. I'm actually pretty relieved, it could've been much, much worse.

The book was slow-paced, but it wasn't exactly boring. A good example of boring writing would be Dan Simmons' Endymion. People might disagree about this with me, but that is the only book that I've ever stopped reading half-way through because I couldn't take it anymore. (The first book kicked ass though.)

Also I liked Jon's and Daenerys' POV-chapters. They both have to deal with tricky political situations and I really looked forward to how they would solve them. Tyrion's chapters are also pretty good, I love it how reckless he has become now that he doesn't have anything to lose, and I love it even more how he still shows compassion for Penny and even for Jorah Mormont who has to be the biggest hypocrite in the whole series. Then again, the few chapters that Cersei and Jaime had felt like they were just in the wrong book.

The book did end in a bit weird way, in fact it felt like it didn't end at all. Like they just forgot to put couple more chapters in there to put things in a better conclusion.

Anyway, I think it's an exaggeration to say that GRRM has become delusional. Bored, unimaginative maybe, but not delusional. I have no proof, I admit, but he just doesn't seem like the sort of person who would get arrogant about his work. Like I said before, this was an alright book, I would give it 7 or 8 out of 10. But he does -have- to put a higher gear on, I don't want to have more of these cliffhangers and solutions that you could predict 200 pages ago. Seriously, Jon's assassination might have been honestly surprising if Melisandre hadn't constantly told Jon Snow how he's surrounded by enemies. Unbelievable, a book that spoils itself.

But I'm still anticipating for tWoW, let's pray for the Seven that this story gets it's conclusion in time.

[One Hand Clapping]

2.9 out of 5 is not positive given that this is an average response from people who have bought the book in hardback as soon as it came out and should therefore be hardcore fans

The casual fans who've just started because of HBO will probably still be several books behind.

And people who buy a 1,000 page hardback and read it do not do so without high expectations.

And for just over half of those readers to give it a mediocre or poor score is very bad news.

Also read the reviews: many of the 1, 2, 3 and even 4-stars are very critical and go into considerable length as to why they couldn't give it a 5 - whereas the 5-stars tend to be like this one from today:

'Great book in the series. It was everything I expected and more. Love this author. His fantasy world is his own and the characters in it are flawed, just like people in the real life, which of course makes it a great read. Now, the wait is on for number six'

Or this:

'Loved this book--I didn't want it to end. It arrived in perfect condition and I was very satisfied with the service I received'.

(this reviewer incidentally has reviewed nothing else other than the 4-volume ASOIAF box where he said almost exactly the same thing - suggesting that somebody somewhere is indeed spamming 5-star reviews to boost the average).

To go from 4.5 (first three books) to 3.5 (AFFC)to 2.9 and still falling in one series does support the contention that on average those of his readers who care enough to write online reviews do see a significant falling off in quality.

And to belabour the chef analogy this just isn't any old potboiler - its a gourmet product produced by 'The American Tolkein'.

You lay out $100 or whatever in a fancy restaurant that everyone tells you is the best in town and you really don't expect to come out saying 'I waited for hours and the food was so-so - hey is that Mcdonalds over there still open?'

But that is exactly what a lot - not all - but a lot of us are saying.

[Linus Chan]

My emotional investment hasn't yet reached the point of evaporation it did with Wheel of Time, where I went from buying hardback to getting the newer books from the library years after publication out of a vague desire to find out what had happened. I still feel very strongly about the series and am terribly eager to read TWOW in, oh, 2013-14 (please!) and learn what happens to my favourite characters. But I also agree strongly with those who feel that ADWD was seriously hurt by the lack of the conflict/climax/resolution structure that was present in books 1-3. For example, I hate Theon the character, but still consider him a high point of ADWD because his arc, in terms of both character development and plot, felt natural and complete; it set up future potential without relying too much on cheap cliffhangers or the withholding of information from the reader.

\

I gave up on Jordan after Crown of Swords and on Goodkind after his 3rd book i think. I have a short leash for series that get bogged down, and yet, i still loved A Dance with Dragons, so we shall see. I have yet to go back and read Path of Daggers et all, so while i am sympathetic to those who don't like DoDr, i'll be honest, i get the whiff of unrealistic expectations, or perhaps it is just because i am no longer in my 20s....

[alguien]

OHC, I think 3/5 is fine. I'm not so sure hard-core fans were as eager to give hi-ratings as you say. And on the flip side you had a group of people already ready to give negative reviews as well. (they had done so several times before the release)

So overall, I'd say the majority of raters on Amazong giving 3 or above is positive. ETA: reviews are 947

Also, what you're saying doesn't take into account every other bookstore ratings system (B&N, iBooks, Goodreads), which are substantially higher.

Here are the links:

iBooks on iTunes has a 4/5 star average after 1086 ratings. (can't link, but check out if you have iTunes)

Barnes and Noble has a 4/5 star average after 1011 ratings.

Google Books has 3.5/5 average after 392 ratings.

And Goodreads (not a bookstore, but a solid reading site) has 4.12/5 star average after over 6,800 ratings and 1300 reviews. ETA: and really, read some of these reviews, I've found them to be just as thoughtful (and not brazenly fannish) if not more so than Amazon

[Lord Eddard]

To go from 4.5 (first three books) to 3.5 (AFFC)to 2.9 and still falling in one series does support the contention that on average those of his readers who care enough to write online reviews do see a significant falling off in quality.

Absolutely. This can't be interpreted in any other way.

[Tagganaro]

2.9 out of 5 is not positive given that this is an average response from people who have bought the book in hardback as soon as it came out and should therefore be hardcore fans

The casual fans who've just started because of HBO will probably still be several books behind.

And people who buy a 1,000 page hardback and read it do not do so without high expectations.

And for just over half of those readers to give it a mediocre or poor score is very bad news.

Also read the reviews: many of the 1, 2, 3 and even 4-stars are very critical and go into considerable length as to why they couldn't give it a 5 - whereas the 5-stars tend to be like this one from today:

'Great book in the series. It was everything I expected and more. Love this author. His fantasy world is his own and the characters in it are flawed, just like people in the real life, which of course makes it a great read. Now, the wait is on for number six'

Or this:

'Loved this book--I didn't want it to end. It arrived in perfect condition and I was very satisfied with the service I received'.

(this reviewer incidentally has reviewed nothing else other than the 4-volume ASOIAF box where he said almost exactly the same thing - suggesting that somebody somewhere is indeed spamming 5-star reviews to boost the average).

To go from 4.5 (first three books) to 3.5 (AFFC)to 2.9 and still falling in one series does support the contention that on average those of his readers who care enough to write online reviews do see a significant falling off in quality.

And to belabour the chef analogy this just isn't any old potboiler - its a gourmet product produced by 'The American Tolkein'.

You lay out $100 or whatever in a fancy restaurant that everyone tells you is the best in town and you really don't expect to come out saying 'I waited for hours and the food was so-so - hey is that Mcdonalds over there still open?'

But that is exactly what a lot - not all - but a lot of us are saying.

Here's why I don't think reader evaluations are particularly "fair" or reliable in terms of determining whether ADWD was "good" or not: You'll see a large discrepancy between what readers thought of the book and what more impartial critics thought of the book (it seemed to get very positive reviews to me). NY Times was particularly glowing about it if I remember correctly.

And this discrepancy is explained by the sample group you mentioned of people who brought the hard cover books (hardcore fans). Hardcore fans had to wait a ridiculous amount of time for their favorite characters like Dany, Jon, and Tyrion's stories to continue. In the meantime, they attached and formed their own expectations for everything and built up excitement to the point where anything less than absolute plot resolution would be disappointing.

Look, I think the book had serious pacing issues, and the decision to split up AFFC and ADWD by characters and not chronology just seemed flat-out dumb to me. I doubt people would have such a vitriolic reaction to Dany's chapters if they didn't take up so much of the book while more interesting characters were sidelined. Having said this, imo, in no way, shape, or form is ADWD deserving of a 2.9 rating. It is a very good book, and without a doubt much better than AFFC which somehow received a higher rating.

[Linus Chan]

Absolutely. This can't be interpreted in any other way.

Eh, it can also be interpreted that any series of more than 3 books will suffer a ratings loss for the middle. There aren't too many comparison points. This series is NOT like Butcher's Dresden files, where there are self-contained novels in an overarching piece. Hell it isn't even the Belgariad or other serial fantasy books. There just aren't that many series wherein you have books of this length and still continuing a story arc. Robert Jordan, who many have used as an example as a series that gets bogged down in the middle, is the only comparable one that comes to mind.

We are the MTV, Twitter, Facebook generation, and it is not easy for us to read 4-5K pages and still not have a resolution.

[Lord Eddard]

We are the MTV, Twitter, Facebook generation, and it is not easy for us to read 4-5K pages and still not have a resolution.

The first three books, while part of an overarching storyline, had resolutions of their own. Dance had not.