[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[Noroldis]

Chief among them is that the series has grown in popularity, which coupled with a long wait created a huge expectation for...well...something this book was never going to be.

IMO it was not too much to hope for that GRRM would return to the quality of the first three books… which would have meant returning to the structure of those first three books. In those, he always made sure we got at least one buildup, which led to a climax, which led to a resolution.

In AGoT, we had the buildups to Ned's execution and the first major battle between the Starks and the Lannisters, we got the climaxes for both, and the resolutions for both. Therefore, even if the book ended on two more climaxes (Robb's crowning and the birth of the dragons), the reader came away satisfied. In ACoK, we had the buildup to the Battle of the Blackwater, the multi-chapter climax, and the resolution. In ASoS, we had the buildups to the Red Wedding, to the wildlings' attack on the Wall, and to the election of the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. We got a climax and a resolution for all three (though admittedly in Jon's case that resolution took place in the same chapter as the climax).

In Dance, we have three build-ups: one for the battle of Meereen, one for the battle of Winterfell, and one for the fallout from Jon's decision to let the wildlings through the Wall. We get the climax to only one of those, the last one. The other two basically end in cliffhangers right before the climaxes. Thus, is it any wonder that many readers are unsatisfied with Dance? And when we finally do read those climaxes in The Winds of Winter, no matter how exciting and well-written they are, I for one will also be thinking "these really should have been in Dance instead of taking up valuable space and pages in Winds."

Ironically, it seems GRRM himself wanted to include at least one of the two missing climaxes in Dance, but was dissuaded from doing so by his editor, Anne Groell. What a screwup on her part. I fondly remember Catelyn's trip to King's Landing in AGoT – first we see her deciding to go to KL, and then in her next chapter she's arriving there. It was perfect. But if Game had been edited by the Anne Groell who edited Dance, likely we would have two or three additional chapters detailing every kind of fish that can be found in the Narrow Sea, lenghty descriptions of everything Catelyn ate on the trip, a description of the captain's home city and the personality of its people, and Catelyn's musings on the possible dangers of a sea trip and whether or not the captain could be trusted.

[lezboyd]

I agree with the OP on this one. I will read it if and when it comes out; probably borrow it from my friends before I buy it myself. ADwD was a huge disappointment as it promised so much and delivered a crappy filler book. I read 900+ pages and what comes out of it? How much did the plot advance? I am getting tired of GRRM deliberately fucking with the reader's expectations. Books 1-4 were great, but Book 5 went a bit too far with it, and has done nothing to advance the various plots.

It'll come out when it comes out and I'll read it when I read it. And, can he please just stop fucking around with the Starks!?

P.S.: Agree 100% with the previous poster.

[GRoll]

That isn't to say that the old-timers are all HUGE fans of ADWD.

As a long-time fan of the series, I can measure my feelings for DwDragons by the lack of interest I now have in re-reading the book. The first three I've re-read a dozen times, FfCrows I've read 4 times, most recently in the month before DwD was released. I've been on vacation, a time when I usually enjoy reading, and have only managed 20 pages of a re-read.

However, in answer to the original post on this thread, I do not have the same high expectations for the subsequent books. I don't expect that they will be of the quality of the first three, but more like the last two (really one huge re-arranged book). I'll read the next books if they are ever published simply because I've been a big fan. If George can reintroduce the excitement, that will be wonderful. If it is more of the same, I will enjoy just getting to the end of a journey.

[Lord Eddard]

In Dance, we have three build-ups: one for the battle of Meereen, one for the battle of Winterfell, and one for the fallout from Jon's decision to let the wildlings through the Wall. We get the climax to only one of those, the last one. The other two basically end in cliffhangers right before the climaxes. Thus, is it any wonder that many readers are unsatisfied with Dance? And when we finally do read those climaxes in The Winds of Winter, no matter how exciting and well-written they are, I for one will also be thinking "these really should have been in Dance instead of taking up valuable space and pages in Winds."

Ironically, it seems GRRM himself wanted to include at least one of the two missing climaxes in Dance, but was dissuaded from doing so by his editor, Anne Groell. What a screwup on her part. I fondly remember Catelyn's trip to King's Landing in AGoT – first we see her deciding to go to KL, and then in her next chapter she's arriving there. It was perfect. But if Game had been edited by the Anne Groell who edited Dance, likely we would have two or three additional chapters detailing every kind of fish that can be found in the Narrow Sea, lenghty descriptions of everything Catelyn ate on the trip, a description of the captain's home city and the personality of its people, and Catelyn's musings on the possible dangers of a sea trip and whether or not the captain could be trusted.

This.

In the interview Anne Groell tries to justify her blunder with the already enormous size of Dance. Couldn't she see that cutting out 300 or so filler pages (Dany's and Tyrion's mostly) and instead including the two sorely missing climaxes would have made a leaner, stronger and ultimately better novel?

[Werthead]

While George wasn't blogging about the writing process when he started AGOT, AFAICT he's never said anything to contradict the assumption that each of the first three books of the series took him 2 years to write - and he has said that he is a 500-page a year writer.

Actually, GRRM has been very clear on this point: he started writing A Game of Thrones in 1991 and wrote more than 100 pages before returning to Hollywood for another project. He got back to AGoT in late 1993 (or early 1994; both dates have been mooted, IIRC) and resumed writing, but had spent some of the intervening period thinking about the series. I recall him once saying that during casting for a TV show he was thinking about Tyrion's story arc and how it would develop in the series.

AGoT-ACoK-ASoS were also written almost as one book, with him breaking off whenever the MS got too big to fit into one volume (so he had 30-40% of ACoK done when AGoT was handed in, and about the same for ASoS, including all of Tyrion's storyline) so it could then be published.

The problems after that regarding the deletion of the first draft of Book 4 (and the loss of 12-18 months work) and so on have been well-reiterated. Assigning percentages to how much work was done and productivity is an attempt to reduce a complex situation into a simplistic one, which doesn't really work.

[HashRouge]

I'm fairly new to the series, having come to the books via the TV series. The series really caught my imagination, and I adored the first three books, although I was not only upset when Robb was killed off, but disappointed, as I suddenly found myself doubting where the story was actually heading. I didn't dislike AFFC but found my enjoyment of the series diminished, and I found ADWD a real slog to get through. I suspect the problem for me is that the fact that I've read the books end to end has highlighted the difference in quality between the first three books and the final two. As I drew near to the end of Dance, I really started to think that it was going to conclude as I wanted it to - with Jon riding to Winterfell. At that point I remember thinking "genius" to myself, and was busy forgiving GRRM for the many filler sections of the book. Clearly though, I was disappointed as that is not how the book ended. I'm looking forward to the next book, but less than I would have expected when I began the series.

[Zach H]

Anticipation is high for me mainly because of a desire to see the Stark/Lannister storylines come to a close. Overall, though, not sure how much these books will interest me in terms of rereads going into the future. Kind of growing a bit wary of scheming Lords sitting around in their keeps. I actually wouldn't mind if the next book is a single point of view story about a random Night's Watch deserter traveling through the lands of always winter.

[Fournaridis]

I am anticipating it just about as much as I can anticipate anything that I'm excited about getting, yet have absolutely not fucking idea when.

Truth betold - I enjoyed ALL of the books. I really did. Sure, 4 and 5 weren't AS good as 1 through 3- but, I still thought they were really enjoyable.

There's just something that tells me, after all the setting up ADwDs was doing - that, the next book will indeed, be better. Even if it's only slightly better, I'll be a happy camper.

If it's more of the same, I might still even forgive it. If it's worse....well, then, that might be a problem.

But, I have faith. I always will. I think TWoW will actually pull us out of the little "rut" we appear to be in, now. And, then - we'll take a retrospective look back on things, and breathe a sigh of relief.

At least, I can hope. A man can have dreams, can't he?

[lezboyd]

There's just something that tells me, after all the setting up ADwDs was doing - that, the next book will indeed, be better.

I thought the same thing when reading AFfC, and look what I got! But, dream away, my friend. We'll find out if and when.

[tsantsa]

After finishing ADWD, I've come to realize that I'm not really actively looking forward to the next book. Don't get me wrong, I want to read it when it comes out, but it's not really something I think I'm going to think a lot about until it actually happens, the way I was looking forward to AFFC after ASOS.

To explain, I thought ADWD was okay, had its moments, but at the same time, it didn't really do anything for me emotionally. Too many characters I'm not interested in, to little development. And I've come to realize that ASOIAF as a series may not be something I connect as much with as I did with books 1-3, which has affected my anticipation of the next books.

Anyone else share this newfound attitude of 'it'll come out when it comes out', or is everyone still as hungry for the next developments as they were before ADWD?

Yes, books 1-4 (for me) were stories about the human experience. We have now fallen into the fantasy pit. I have posted my ragequit response here awaiting mod approval. They may not, it's ok. Any of the characters that might have been interesting are no longer there, or have become uninteresting.

[One Hand Clapping]

Assigning percentages to how much work was done and productivity is an attempt to reduce a complex situation into a simplistic one, which doesn't really work.

It works for me - three books in six vs two books in ten years are crude but valid metrics.

And having worked professionally as a quality management analyst, generally I've found that its these crude metrics that work best - managers and employees love to add all sorts of complex weightings to obscure and excuse sub-optimal performance but this being capitalism all that actually matters is whether you've produced the maximum amount of goods at the minimum cost without screwing up the quality.

For me and for a LOT of other readers George has failed that test.

Whether we're right or wrong in making what is always a subjective judgement is irrelevant - the customer is always right and when so many people who have bought a product are kvetching loudly about how disappointed they are with it then a good businessman should stop congratulating himself and start listening.

In what other market when a product is launched and met with a chorus of complaints would a businessman repeatedly attack the complainers for their inflated 'sense of entitlement'?

(Well actually I have seen that happen - but that tactic has never ended well for the company or the individuals involved...)

Where I differ from some of the other critics is that I am old enough to be philosophical about it and accept that you can't always get what you want.

George wanted to write a fantasy epic with all the depth of 'real' literature - but clearly he was asking too much of himself and probably too much of the genre itself and is thus finding each additional volume more and more of a struggle to complete.

We wanted that promise fulfilled but with each volume that crawls out that looks more and more unlikely.

But that's life....

[Bronn is God]

Dany has single handedly ruined the series. The story has become so Dany centric that I just dont care anymore.

I just wish George killed Dany instead of Jon. DWD would be completely redeemable if Dany had been killed off.

And I pray that Jon is dead. Please let him stay dead.

[One Hand Clapping]

There is an interesting discussion on Slate about overrated novels where John Crowley (who has written some first class fantasy himself) says this about Thomas Pynchon:

One that I did finish—or almost finished, put it down at bedtime with a few scant pages to go and never picked it up again—is Gravity's Rainbow. I had already stopped responding to it except with a sort of mild disgust (the Marvel Comics heroes run amuck, the shit-eating German general) and kept going out of the love I had and have for V. and The Crying of Lot 49. The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom, but doesn't always get there in time. I gave up waiting.

This almost perfectly defines how I (and it would seem a whole bunch of other people) feel about ADWD.

[lezboyd]

Dany has single handedly ruined the series. The story has become so Dany centric that I just dont care anymore.

I agree. The earlier two books did so much to put Dany in the thick of things, and what do we get as a pay-off in ADwD? Dany waking, bathing, calling for food, then having a worry and forgetting her appetite, then changing into a tokar that is elaborately described, having sex somewhere in between, and repeat...

[Miguel Tonnies]

It works for me - three books in six vs two books in ten years are crude but valid metrics. And having worked professionally as a quality management analyst, generally I've found that its these crude metrics that work best - managers and employees love to add all sorts of complex weightings to obscure and excuse sub-optimal performance but this being capitalism all that actually matters is whether you've produced the maximum amount of goods at the minimum cost without screwing up the quality.For me and for a LOT of other readers George has failed that test. Whether we're right or wrong in making what is always a subjective judgement is irrelevant - the customer is always right and when so many people who have bought a product are kvetching loudly about how disappointed they are with it then a good businessman should stop congratulating himself and start listening.In what other market when a product is launched and met with a chorus of complaints would a businessman repeatedly attack the complainers for their inflated 'sense of entitlement'? (Well actually I have seen that happen - but that tactic has never ended well for the company or the individuals involved...)Where I differ from some of the other critics is that I am old enough to be philosophical about it and accept that you can't always get what you want.George wanted to write a fantasy epic with all the depth of 'real' literature - but clearly he was asking too much of himself and probably too much of the genre itself and is thus finding each additional volume more and more of a struggle to complete. We wanted that promise fulfilled but with each volume that crawls out that looks more and more unlikely. But that's life....

I could not agree more with this post.

Miguel

[Miguel Tonnies]

I do find it really weird that so many new people have joined this board in the last 2 months to make their first posts about how they no longer are looking forward to the next book.That isn't to say that the old-timers are all HUGE fans of ADWD. But there does seem to be a lot of "I just watched the show and read the books really super fast and now I can't wait to talk about how I don't want to read the rest of them anymore!"Take some time. Let it sink in. Pace yourselves. You don't have to go from n00b to uberfan to ultrajaded in the course of one summer, folks.

I am a total newbie to this forum, but have started ASOIAF from the onset. So I guess that I am an old-timer as far as the series is concerned. I took my time; I let it sink in; I paced myself ( how I paced myself! ) and I feel somewhat "cheated" in my ( legitimate ) expectations.

I want to read the rest of the books, as a matter of course, on the assumption that I will be alive when they are published, but the series has, significantly, lost priority in my to-do list.

For what it is worth, I have not watched the TV series.

Miguel

[ICE CROW]

My anticipation is off the chart, ima new fan cus of the shows and read through all 5 books one after the other. Now waiting for the next book im already starting to understand what the long time fans went throught over the last 11 years. I truly hope 2 years 3 tops is all we'll have to wait.

[Silverjaime]

Like (it seems) many others on this board I found ADWD a huge disappointment - to put it mildly! I was aware it was going to be slow as it was telling the story on the other side of the world to catch up with the last book, but really, this was dreadfully slow. The Dany "epic" is completely uninteresting to me, let her go to Westeros and fight for the Throne why don't you! Her development in the first 3 books has completely been forgotten, and even her relationship with HER dragons leaves much to be desired.

The number of new characters was just completely unnecessary and boring IMO and the old ones were shadows of their former selves. The storylines were bogged down with pages of descriptions of minuteae and clothing and travel till I wanted to scream! I couldn't keep up with the numbers of "Z" names, nick-names, relationships between the characters and so on.

Maybe GRRM has written an epic - he has completely immersed himself in this other world - but it just wasn't interesting enough to hold my attention. Nothing much happened for 90% of the book, and any action there was related to the unremitting cruelty and awfulness of life in that world. It was so depressing!

People compare this series to LoTR and point out all the frailties and mistakes in Tolkein's epic. But at least amidst all that there were stories of hope, loyalty, love etc. to uplift the spirit. Not so here.

The series starts off bleak but with plenty of action and plot and interesting characters, but now with ADWD it's just bleak adn boring. Maybe proper editing could have culled a few of the pointless chapters, but I feel it's deeper than that. Perhaps the story as it was in the first 3 books has fizzled out through the passage of the years, and GRRM has had trouble resurrecting it.

I for one will not be buying the next book until I've heard whether it's worth it, but I suspect my life will have moved on apace before then, and frankly I don't care enough now to look forward to any more of this.

[SeanF]

I only started reading the series about 6 weeks ago, and have just finished ADWD.

In my opinion, it is as good as any other book in the series, and has been written by an author at the peak of his powers.

The argument that "nothing happens" is a strange one, IMHO. The book was packed with incident. Clearly, a lot of plot lines remain to be resolved, but that's not the same thing.

[Happy Ent]

My anticipation is off the chart, ima new fan cus of the shows and read through all 5 books one after the other. Now waiting for the next book im already starting to understand what the long time fans went throught over the last 11 years. I truly hope 2 years 3 tops is all we'll have to wait.

Good luck.

Ignoring your English spelling, are you sure about your Latin motto? It's been more years than it takes GRRM to finish a book since I had any Latin, but that doesn't smell right to me.