[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[rue721]

If you haven't read it, I very much recommend checking out his blog entry about the writing of Dance. Its pretty informative.

Do you have a link? I'd be interested in reading that :)

[King_Baratheon]

After finishing ADWD, I've come to realize that I'm not really actively looking forward to the next book. Don't get me wrong, I want to read it when it comes out, but it's not really something I think I'm going to think a lot about until it actually happens, the way I was looking forward to AFFC after ASOS.

To explain, I thought ADWD was okay, had its moments, but at the same time, it didn't really do anything for me emotionally. Too many characters I'm not interested in, to little development. And I've come to realize that ASOIAF as a series may not be something I connect as much with as I did with books 1-3, which has affected my anticipation of the next books.

Anyone else share this newfound attitude of 'it'll come out when it comes out', or is everyone still as hungry for the next developments as they were before ADWD?

I can't freakin wait for the plot to actually take a legitimate step forward. I love GRRM, but I think the series is going to end up being at LEAST 8 books. Hopefully he doesn't even think about ASoIF until Jan. 2012 and that will give him his second *cough* sixth wind.

[King_Baratheon]

Do you have a link? I'd be interested in reading that :)

It's hard to believe you're on here and haven't read his blog...Lots of stuff on Dance and other things.: http://grrm.livejournal.com/

[alguien]

Do you have a link? I'd be interested in reading that :)

Here's a link to the specific May 19th entry:

My link

[rue721]

Thanks, King_Baratheon and alguien!

[grom]

The biggest flaw of those two books is the change in GRRM's mindset, I think, and maybe even writing style. He has lost something essential to the greatness that were aGoT, aCoK and aSoS

This

I would add, possible loss of interest and/or inspiration.

IMO, it is not a change in writing style, it is just lower quality literature (than the first 3 books).

Also, my anticipation is greatly lowered after reading Dance.

I did peruse some and found myself agreeing with a bit of the criticism. Other times, I thought that they had valid points but gave lower ratings because they were frustrated by the wait.

I dont understand how the long wait is an excuse to disqualify a criticism. IMO it is a perfectly valid reason to emphasize them.

Martin wrote ASOS in 2 years and wrote ADWD (great drop in quality) in 11 years.

If this is not a problem, and a reason to be utterly pessimistic, I dont know what would be...

[Dolorous J]

I think George should have at least given us the war against Yunkai and Mereen to end the 1st book . It would have been a great climax , and he still could have left us a cliffhanger with Jon's stabbing / possible death.

As it stands now , I'm pretty depressed that I have to wait 5 more years to find out anything. I wouldn't call it anticipation, because it's still too far away. SImply depressed ,lol .

[redxavier]

I dont understand how the long wait is an excuse to disqualify a criticism. IMO it is a perfectly valid reason to emphasize them.

And further, who's fault is it that expectations were high? When you have an author who is 'taking his time' - 5 years over the time he said it would take - and makes it known that he only finishes when he's happy with his work, and the previous work is fabulous, a reader cannot expect anything less than a masterpiece. But no, it's clear that ADWD is in fact objectively inferior to the previous books. We've got neither quality nor quantity it seems.

[DJ Dawn]

But no, it's clear that ADWD is in fact objectively inferior to the previous books.

Objectively? Objectively inferior? For real?

I'm pretty sure you mean subjectively.

ADWD was better, in my opinion (that's subjective!), than AFFC or ACOK. I enjoyed it about as much as ASOS. The difference is scope. ASOS was a wartime action filled book. ADWD was a peacetime world building book. It sets up another wartime action filled book.

If TWoW is paced the same way, then I'll start to worry, but ADWD was a very good read worth the money entirely.

[Purge]

I hate to say it but I found ADWD boring and monotonous. I had high expectations for the book but the longer I read it the more I wanted it to be finished. The beginning of the series really caught my attention. Then I was hooked and couldn't wait for the next book. Now I just want to know the ending. This is the reason I stopped reading Salvatore.

I get it...Martin seems to have a problem with the good guy winning all the time. I'm starting to have a problem with the bad guy winning all the time. Whats the difference??? Just opposite ends of the spectrum.

JON, that better not play out the way I think it is going to...I would be really, really diasappointed!!

[One Hand Clapping]

Agreed our experience of literature is always subjective.

So are all opinions equally valid?

No - but only because that act of validation is equally a subjective act.

For me someone who clearly reads other non-genre literature, who doesn't think that Robert Jordan is the only appropriate point of comparison and can write intelligently and who still highly rates this book is seeing something that I just could not see at all in my first reading.

And being open-minded I am willing to admit that maybe I am wrong to at least some degree.

So I am reading it over again more slowly and making notes as if it was one of those big fat 19th century classics.

But so far I am still getting nothing - however clearly the prologue and earlier chapters some of which we know were written at the same time as AFFC are better written than the later ones and actually do read as if they have been professionally edited.

What aren't subjective are statements about quantity.

While George wasn't blogging about the writing process when he started AGOT, AFAICT he's never said anything to contradict the assumption that each of the first three books of the series took him 2 years to write - and he has said that he is a 500-page a year writer.

And while it took him 6 years to write 3,000 pages over c.1994 to 2000 it took him 10 years to write 1800 pages in 2001-2011.

So he went from being a 500 page a year writer in the 1990s to a 180 page a year writer in the 2000s.

I may not be a literary critic but I do know a fair bit about measuring productivity - and 2000s George produced 65% less product than 1990s George.

Is the 2000s product really 65% better qualitatively than the 1990s product because he lavished 65% more time on it?

Clearly that is a subjective thing yet again - but collectively the people who rate the books both at Amazon and at fan sites that let you rate and critique the books honestly don't on average think so.

In fact of we go by Amazon stars (an admittedly very crude measure but given the volumes of votes and that they have made it harder to spam reviews not one that can be completely discounted) then as 3-star books the 2000s books have declined in quality by 50% compared to the 4.5 star 1990s ones.

Another measure that will be interesting will be the judgement of award panels - the first three books all got the Locus Fantasy Award and AFFC was at least nominated for one but lost out to Neil Gaiman.

The first four books were also all nominated for Hugos and/or Nebulas but never won one.

I'd be very surprised indeed if ADWD wins anything at all from a voting audience that has to do anything more to register a vote than hit a rating button online.

[DJ Dawn]

What aren't subjective are statements about quantity.

While George wasn't blogging about the writing process when he started AGOT, AFAICT he's never said anything to contradict the assumption that each of the first three books of the series took him 2 years to write - and he has said that he is a 500-page a year writer.

And while it took him 6 years to write 3,000 pages over c.1994 to 2000 it took him 10 years to write 1800 pages in 2001-2011.

So he went from being a 500 page a year writer in the 1990s to a 180 page a year writer in the 2000s.

I may not be a literary critic but I do know a fair bit about measuring productivity - and 2000s George produced 65% less product than 1990s George.

Is the 2000s product really 65% better qualitatively than the 1990s product because he lavished 65% more time on it?

Speed != quality. Nor does productivity. Do we want the book today at 85% or the book in 3 years at 90%? That's an entirely personal question without a right answer. We know that this was difficult to write. You can tell it was difficult to write. I feel as though if this book came out in 2006 there would be much less dislike. And I'm afraid I cannot buy the fact that 65% more time requires a 65% quality increase. It takes very little time to reach 80% in anything. The last 15 takes most of the time, and the last 5 is impossible.

Clearly that is a subjective thing yet again - but collectively the people who rate the books both at Amazon and at fan sites that let you rate and critique the books honestly don't on average think so.

In fact of we go by Amazon stars (an admittedly very crude measure but given the volumes of votes and that they have made it harder to spam reviews not one that can be completely discounted) then as 3-star books the 2000s books have declined in quality by 50% compared to the 4.5 star 1990s ones.

One should never back up their claims by saying, "A lot of people agree with me." It's a poor arguing point. There are a host of factors that lead to those 1 star reviews. Chief among them is that the series has grown in popularity, which coupled with a long wait created a huge expectation for...well...something this book was never going to be.

I'm not saying that you're coming from there, but I am saying that it is a factor to consider when appealing to the majority.

Another measure that will be interesting will be the judgement of award panels - the first three books all got the Locus Fantasy Award and AFFC was at least nominated for one but lost out to Neil Gaiman.

The first four books were also all nominated for Hugos and/or Nebulas but never won one.

I'd be very surprised indeed if ADWD wins anything at all from a voting audience that has to anything rather more to register a vote than hit a rating button online.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was nominated for awards, but I agree that this is something to watch.

[Dayne's Sword]

I saw AFFC as a set up book. Problem is Dance and Feast are supposed to be the same book. The long wait between the two has really soured outlooks/expectations. As the vast majority of the fan base found Feast slow and plodding and got more of the same from Dance. Where they were wanting a more up-tempo book. To get another slow book was a bitter pill to take. But we knew that Dance was part 2 of Feast and would probably be more of the same.

To make Dance worse a vast chunk of it was set in the east where going by reaction on this board the east is not cared about let alone liked.

I loved Feast with its references to Westros History and the setting up of things to come. Dance didn’t have as much of the History in it although we had some nice gems. But it’s setting us up for I hope a rollercoaster in the next book. If it doesn’t deliver? Oh bugger. But I don’t think that will be the case. IMO dance and Feast are the problem books where George was going to have the 5 year gap. Once he has written himself out of the T junction we should be back to good stuff.

What have we got coming in the next 2 books?

1. Dany flies back to Mereen with a few Dothraki screamers backing her up.

2. a nice siege in Mereen

3. Vic shows up in Mereen helps Dany out Politics and war etc.

4. Tyrion meets Dany and becomes a dragon head or at least the counsellor she needs.

5. At the end of the book Dany having sorted out the east sails west.

And that’s just in the east which I also don’t like. Back in westros.

1. The last stand at hardhome. zombies, others ice spiders. Prologue chapter? :drool:

2. Some resolution on the aftermath of Jon's "death" wildling revolt?

3. NW inept leadership in not listening to Jon biting them on the arse? Desperate last stands on the wall as ice spiders climb up the wall. :fencing:

4. Jamie, Brienne, UnCat or just Jamie and Brienne search for Sansa.

5. Kl and cersei really annoying the tyrells. Possible civil war again as the others invade.

6. UnGregor and the trial

7. Lots of little sub plots. myrcella,dark(plum)star, the black fish, sansa and littlefinger, Arya etc etc

8. griff and connington the stormlands rising up with dorne against a lanniseter tyrell alliance that is fading fast.

9. The north remembering Ned’s legacy

10. The 7 kingdoms well and truly buggered by the end of the book as the others invade apocalypse style.

11. Endgame

[alguien]

I think George should have at least given us the war against Yunkai and Mereen to end the 1st book . It would have been a great climax , and he still could have left us a cliffhanger with Jon's stabbing / possible death.

Very much agree here. By some reports at Worldcon, that sounds like it was the original plan. At the very least, it would have made the title of the book make that much more sense.

As it stands now , I'm pretty depressed that I have to wait 5 more years to find out anything. I wouldn't call it anticipation, because it's still too far away. SImply depressed ,lol .

Have hope! I think now that a lot of stuff has been resolved, along with having a nice head start, maybe it will be more like 2-3 years. (that's what, I believe, GRRM is hoping for too)

[alguien]

I dont understand how the long wait is an excuse to disqualify a criticism. IMO it is a perfectly valid reason to emphasize them.

I think a wait increased some people's frustration (in some cases due to a distorted sense of entitlement) and raised their expectations to an unreasonable degree. So while I don't think its a blanket excuse to dismiss all criticism (remember, I myself have criticisms of the book) I tend to take people who bring up the wait in their criticism less seriously.

And, sorry, I just find waiting period a ridiculous metric to use in criticism. Judge a book, or any work of art really, on its merits alone--not the time it took to produce.

[One Hand Clapping]

There is a 'distorted sense of entitlement' (e.g. 'wtf is George doing watching football games and blogging about them when he should be writing the book I want') and there is a rational expectation based on the author's own statements of when something will be ready and what it will be like.

Plus he is not a literary writer who can produce one book every ten or twenty years and be lauded for it - he is a genre writer who produces a mass market fantasy series.

And in this market if you start a fantasy series you do not generally take 5 or 6 years to deliver each book.

Can anyone name any other significant fantasy or SF writer who gets away with that?

Sadly ADWD raises the question of whether maybe George is now too good a writer to do this type of genre fiction any more - perhaps he is bored with the limitations he has set himself by embarking on such a monster of a series and should be allowed to do something that does interest and inspire him.

Who else would be expected to devote 20+ years of their life to just one single project?

[Blaine]

I do find it really weird that so many new people have joined this board in the last 2 months to make their first posts about how they no longer are looking forward to the next book.

That isn't to say that the old-timers are all HUGE fans of ADWD. But there does seem to be a lot of "I just watched the show and read the books really super fast and now I can't wait to talk about how I don't want to read the rest of them anymore!"

Take some time. Let it sink in. Pace yourselves. You don't have to go from n00b to uberfan to ultrajaded in the course of one summer, folks.

[Kluane]

Take some time. Let it sink in. Pace yourselves. You don't have to go from n00b to uberfan to ultrajaded in the course of one summer, folks.

Agreed.

I'm one of the n00b, but I’m ready to wait (and re-read the series, again and again, during this time). ;)

And hopefully we'll have the next dunk and egg story soon and maybe other to wait.

[grom]

I think a wait increased some people's frustration (in some cases due to a distorted sense of entitlement) and raised their expectations to an unreasonable degree. So while I don't think its a blanket excuse to dismiss all criticism (remember, I myself have criticisms of the book) I tend to take people who bring up the wait in their criticism less seriously.

And, sorry, I just find waiting period a ridiculous metric to use in criticism. Judge a book, or any work of art really, on its merits alone--not the time it took to produce.

We are in 2011 and not in 1950. Different times, you know?

Have you heard the word "hype" ever? It is very common in the videogame industry. Developers use the "hype" as a marketing strategy, they build expectations and make the future game look like the second coming of Christ. On one hand this helps the company tremendously to bolster the initial sales. On the other hand, if the game does not reach the level expected, it is "overhyped", it usually gets destroyed over the internet and falls into oblivion.

EVERY gaming company does business like this nowadays. It is good for business.

Well, Martin has done EXACTLY THE SAME. People talks about "entitlement" and "expectations" as if the readers are to blame. Martin himself has built the tremendous amount of hype surrounding ASOIAF. No doubt this has helped him make money, which is perfectly legitimate. But you have to take the good with the bad, now you have to cope with the consequences of an "overhyped" product.

[Lord Eddard]

That isn't to say that the old-timers are all HUGE fans of ADWD. But there does seem to be a lot of "I just watched the show and read the books really super fast and now I can't wait to talk about how I don't want to read the rest of them anymore!"

I've been reading the series since 1996 and can't say I have high hopes for the future. The Song is on a downhill slide since Feast and Dance, no doubt about it. A shame, really. So my anticipation for the next book is pretty low.