[ADWD SPOILERS] After ADWD, how big is your anticipation for the next book?

[Lord Eddard]

You'll see a large discrepancy between what readers thought of the book and what more impartial critics thought of the book (it seemed to get very positive reviews to me).

How do come by the notion that critics are impartial? IMO they have a lot more to consider before they give a negative review. Take Lev Grossmann, who coined the term "American Tolkien" (after Feast, for crying out loud) and now after Dance sees his initial praise confirmed (of course).

Maybe it helps to clarify that Lev is a fellow fantasy writer whom Martin wrote a generous blurb on his novel. So, impartial is not the word I would use with a lot of professional reviewers.

[Linus Chan]

The first three books, while part of an overarching storyline, had resolutions of their own. Dance had not.

That is not a fair comparison to the books that i mention. The resolutions in the first 3 books are not ending stories the same way as the Dresden books did. They had independent storylines, with just the main character in a larger story arc. (other examples are Xanth books, or Incarnations of Immortality, etc).

There is a reason why many many fantasy book series were in the past limited to 3-4 books. Few have ventured this far. Even Goodkind's books had self-contained story arcs. Really, the only comparible series that lasted more then 4 books, has got to be Robert Jordan.

A Song of Ice and Fire is one long story arc, that we are 5000K pages in but only 5/7ths of the way through. The resolutions in the first 3 books don't resolve the overall story, they just set up the drama and give us the stakes.

[alguien]

Look, I think the book had serious pacing issues, and the decision to split up AFFC and ADWD by characters and not chronology just seemed flat-out dumb to me. I doubt people would have such a vitriolic reaction to Dany's chapters if they didn't take up so much of the book while more interesting characters were sidelined. Having said this, imo, in no way, shape, or form is ADWD deserving of a 2.9 rating. It is a very good book, and without a doubt much better than AFFC which somehow received a higher rating.

QFT. Pretty much agree with this exactly. I think the POV split proved to be a rather unsuccessful experiment. (though I still enjoyed AFFC)

[benadgatemusic]

If you want BAD, BORING writing, check out most of the Star Wars "expanded universe" books.

[Linus Chan]

How do come by the notion that critics are impartial? IMO they have a lot more to consider before they give a negative review. Take Lev Grossmann, who coined the term "American Tolkien" (after Feast, for crying out loud) and now after Dance sees his initial praise confirmed (of course).

Maybe it helps to clarify that Lev is a fellow fantasy writer whom Martin wrote a generous blurb on his novel. So, impartial is not the word I would use with a lot of professional reviewers.

There are many examples of reviewers, professional reviewers who did in fact love ADoD. But honestly, it doesn't matter.

You don't like it, that's fine. You take reader reviews on certain websites to bolster your belief that GRRM's writing quality has staled, and that the series is going to be a disappointment. Other people do overall enjoy the book, and are excited about what the next books will bring. They point to reviewers who agree with them, and try to find a way to explain why some of the reader reactions are negative. You've tried to explain why the professional reviewer reactions are biased. Eh, whatever.

There doesn't need to be agreement here, especially as the books we really are disagreeing about haven't even been written yet.

**THIS IS ADDENDUM in case Lord Eddard thinks i am editing for unsavory reasons**

I wanted to add a quick note here. I was first introduced to this series back in the summer of 1997, a year after i graduated college and was looking for more fantasy. I was getting frustrated with Jordan at the time. And i remember HATING Game of Thrones... wondering where the magic was, and being very very bored with the politics. It was precisely because of the TV show that i gave the books another shot, and caused me to spend not a small part of my vacation this year in Italy with my nose to a book rather than enjoying Rome, Florence and Tuscany.***

[Lord Eddard]

There doesn't need to be agreement here, especially as the books we really are disagreeing about haven't even been written yet.

Yes, whatever. I think we both can agree we want Martin back on track for the next book and that unfortunately Dance was not the masterpiece we all wished it to be (even if you liked it more than I did).

By the way, interesting point about long epics than span several books. Maybe stories are not meant to be told in more than three or four books because otherwise the stories tend to bloat or the writer just loses interest and moves to new stories.

What is your take on Steven Erikson's Malazan? Ten books for one story and he brought the story to an end. I haven't read all books but heard he had one or two middle books as well which were sub-par. But on the upside, at least he finished the whole series ;-)

[Linus Chan]

I haven't read that series, but it would be an interesting data point, so to speak. I will try and check it out when i can. I imagine it would also be hard to find publishers to take a flier on an unknown writer for a long series. Not impossible of course, just hard.

[Bronn is God]

What is your take on Steven Erikson's Malazan? Ten books for one story and he brought the story to an end. I haven't read all books but heard he had one or two middle books as well which were sub-par. But on the upside, at least he finished the whole series ;-)

As far as I am aware, the first 5 books have their own plots which come to an end and have larger plotlines which continue on in the series. It is very much AGOT-ASOS like, rather than AFFC/DWD (which is surprising because the #1 critique of Erikson is he overdoes worldbuilding).

[grom]

I'm certainly looking forward to TWOW, because short of George announcing that there'll be an 8th book, it has to have some resolution, right?

Remember, you are not entitled to have expectations! :rolleyes:

Or whatever.

[Tagganaro]

How do come by the notion that critics are impartial? IMO they have a lot more to consider before they give a negative review. Take Lev Grossmann, who coined the term "American Tolkien" (after Feast, for crying out loud) and now after Dance sees his initial praise confirmed (of course).

Maybe it helps to clarify that Lev is a fellow fantasy writer whom Martin wrote a generous blurb on his novel. So, impartial is not the word I would use with a lot of professional reviewers.

Maybe impartial isn't quite the correct word, but I think in most cases it is as these are professional book critics or whatever. I guess I would say "unaffected by the manipulation of expectation" or something like that. Many of the "hardcore" fans probably read all the books as they came out, and spent the intervening years building up their own stories and own expectations, which were inevitably disappointed by the lack of resolution in what was clearly more of a set-up book.

And I agree that the pacing is just not good enough right now. To be honest I think the problem started with ASOS- too many potential new locations and characters introduced, and too many driving forces behind the previous 3 novels killed, which forced the introduction of even more characters. And as I have said, it's absolutely crazy to expect fans to be patient waiting 11 years or whatever it was for some of their favorite characters to appear again. Very, very poor decision to split up the books by character.

That being said, while I hate on AFFC, that's not to say it was in anyway bad, it was just the worst of the books. Too much of a meandering plotline, and way too many boring characters in POV (Sam, Arianne, Areo, Damphair I'm looking at you).

But I think ADWD was leagues better, and fixed several of those problems now that Dorne is becoming involved with everything in King's Landing and now that Victarion has revealed his awesomeness.

[Dragons Dancing]

As far as I am aware, the first 5 books have their own plots which come to an end and have larger plotlines which continue on in the series. It is very much AGOT-ASOS like, rather than AFFC/DWD (which is surprising because the #1 critique of Erikson is he overdoes worldbuilding).

I have read all of Erikson's Malazan the Fallen books, all 10, and some of the corollary books from Esslemont. You could label me a fanatical Erikson fan but I think of myself as a dedicated Erikson fan. Yes, Erikson does sometimes go overboard in his world building. He is a archeologist and loves discussing what happens to worlds when species die or environmental cataclysmal events effect nature. I happened to like his species/environmental musings but some fans want only plot driven writing. I have never read a more interesting world than what he has created in Malazan, but what makes me a dedicated fan is the characters that he develops. His gods and magic system is uniquely complex and you spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, but the comman man characters, primarily the grunt Malazan soldiers and assasins are what I and most of his fans love and keep us coming back to learn what is happening with them. He is like GRRM in that he kills off a lot of favarite characters in sometimes gruesome ways and like GRRM some come back as ghosts. Also like GRRM he abuses some standard fantasy tropes.

The main complaint about his books is that they are too dense and I agree with this as my Malazan books are the most marked and underlined books that I have. I developed a color coding system for his books so that I could flip back to find hints and foreshadowing that might be relevant to a another books story. If you choose to read his books my advice is to commit to at least two books as his first book, Memories of Ice does not grab everyone and secondly to read them without large gaps between as you will get frustrated by what you forgot and now need to go back and find the beginnings of.

My intent was not to write a review of these books but in responding to this criticism of excessive world building, I felt compelled to give a potential reader some reference to GRRM's style and what I think are good reasons to give Malazan a read.

[Dragons Dancing]

As far as I am aware, the first 5 books have their own plots which come to an end and have larger plotlines which continue on in the series. It is very much AGOT-ASOS like, rather than AFFC/DWD (which is surprising because the #1 critique of Erikson is he overdoes worldbuilding).

I have read all of Erikson's Malazan the Fallen books, all 10, and some of the corollary books from Esslemont. You could label me a fanatical Erikson fan but I think of myself as a dedicated Erikson fan. Yes, Erikson does sometimes go overboard in his world building. He is a archeologist and loves discussing what happens to worlds when species die or environmental cataclysmal events effect nature. I happened to like his species/environmental musings but some fans want only plot driven writing. I have never read a more interesting world than what he has created in Malazan, but what makes me a dedicated fan is the characters that he develops. His gods and magic system is uniquely complex and you spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, but the comman man characters, primarily the grunt Malazan soldiers and assasins are what I and most of his fans love and keep us coming back to learn what is happening with them. He is like GRRM in that he kills off a lot of favarite characters in sometimes gruesome ways and like GRRM some come back as ghosts. Also like GRRM he abuses some standard fantasy tropes.

The main complaint about his books is that they are too dense and I agree with this as my Malazan books are the most marked and underlined books that I have. I developed a color coding system for his books so that I could flip back to find hints and foreshadowing that might be relevant to a another books story. If you choose to read his books my advice is to commit to at least two books as his first book, Memories of Ice does not grab everyone and secondly to read them without large gaps between as you will get frustrated by what you forgot and now need to go back and find the beginnings of.

My intent was not to write a review of these books but in responding to this criticism of excessive world building, I felt compelled to give a potential reader some reference to GRRM's style and what I think are good reasons to give Malazan a read.

[Dragons Dancing]

Now to give my two cents opinion on how big my expectation is for the next book. Yes, I am definitely committed to reading it. I love the ASOIF story and want to experience it's progression slow or fast and am totally befuddled about how it may end. Yes, I know that there will finally be a clash between the Others and the Kingdom but what I want to know are the stories within the overarching story of what happens to my favorite characters in this epic battle for the heart and soul of Westeros.

I didn't like AFFC and ADWD as much as the first three but I still liked how GRRM took the time to more fully develop some of the characters and the worlds as I think this will add more complex color the final books. I enjoyed the read for the most part. I also could have done with less Meereen but I am holding out some hope that it will prove to be useful later on.

[Bronn is God]

/snip

I have read Garbage of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates. Deadhouse Gates is my favorite fantasy novel thusfar in my life. And I am currently reading MOI.

My point is that SE manages to complete a story ark in the space of one book whilst continuing the overlying story, whereas this has ceased to happen in GRRM's work. ADWD was one big nothing. The entirety of Tyrion's and Dany's and maybe Jon's story could be skipped and you wouldn't have missed much at all.

It was pointless characterization and world building to justify obligatory heroes coming into the series.

[Dragons Dancing]

I have read Garbage of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates. Deadhouse Gates is my favorite fantasy novel thusfar in my life. And I am currently reading MOI.

My point is that SE manages to complete a story ark in the space of one book whilst continuing the overlying story, whereas this has ceased to happen in GRRM's work. ADWD was one big nothing. The entirety of Tyrion's and Dany's and maybe Jon's story could be skipped and you wouldn't have missed much at all.

It was pointless characterization and world building to justify obligatory heroes coming into the series.

Glad you are enjoying Malazan. I agree that most of the Malazan books complete a story arc as well as add to the overall story arc but there is so much foreshadowing in his books that is easy to miss. The Malazan forum is a big help in reading these books.

I partially agree with your assessment of ADWD. Tyrion and Dany could have been condensed. Why Darrio? Why Tyrion repeatedly being enslaved? Even though reading about Jon the administrator was not exciting, I do think it will be important to the story as it shows his leadership abilities and the results of the controversial decisions he made with the wildings and Stannis.

[Irys]

I have only read the books after I saw the first episode of the tv show and now having read dwd I am in limbo.

I only had to wait a few weeks for the last book and can´t stand to wait 6 years. Those cliffhangers are killing me because there is zero satisfaction in reading such incomplete storylines.

I also think GRRM got a bit carried away with als his storylines, you could write a 12 books on all that´s happending and did happen in the past.

My greatest fear ist that there will never be wow because GRRm falls down a flight od stairs, has a heart attack or gets eaten by dragon. I hope I am wrong, but I seldom am.

[Corrina]

This is a great post and really sums up what ADWD is really about. If the first three books are about the characters struggling for power, then the last two were about them struggling to keep it. Since that age-old saying that keeping power is harder than gaining it, it seems that writing about it might be the same. These books are a lot more subtle and many people won't have the patience for them, but it doesn't mean they're bad. I felt it illustrated its themes very well and made the world of Westeros and Essos much richer, complex, and more real places. We were disappointed in many of Dany's decisions, but we were supposed to be disappointed in her. We learned that she may be a great conqueror, but her skills as a peace-keeper are lacking. She has good intentions but we all know what the road to hell is paved with. Jon, I felt made many wise decisions and had a broad vision, but his flaw was not keeping an eye on what was going on before his eyes. I think it's strange that people criticize the books because the characters don't behave perfectly when they're thrust into new situations. Maybe it's because many people are too used to stories where the hero always does right and emerges triumphant.

Thanks.

I don't know if it's lack of patience so much as looking for a different kind of story. I love character arcs and it seemed to me that ADWD really took those characters arcs, particularly for Dany & Jon, and made them far more in-depth and intense. But if you're looking for action and a battle or for Dany to get moving and get to the main plot, that reader is going to be disappointed. Nothing wrong with that.

I'd never have read these books if not for the HBO series. I found the first half of the HBO series & the first half of Game of Thrones dull. Very dull. It was all about putting pieces into place. I stuck around the TV show because of Tyrion's scenes (which were wonderful) and because Ned was compelling. the one scene they did add--between Cersei & Robert--really hooked me because it was about two people who really hated each other but maybe didn't have to. Brutal honesty.

But the flaws (not moving fast enough, going in circles) that many point out are scattered throughout all these books. I got frustrated with all the descriptions of the sigils and symbols of all the houses even in the graphic novel version of The Hedge Knight, which had the advantage of visuals. Then Arya wanders in circles all through a huge chunk of the narrative, going from one bad situation to the next without any resolution until she heads over to the Faceless Men. I like being in Arya's head but that drove me nuts, as Dany in Mereen bothered many here.

So, it could be that certain elements were included in the earlier three books that aren't in the latter two that lead many to say their reading experience is lesser. And that's, naturally, completely valid.

I'm just saying I don't see a change in quality or writing style. The series has flaws but the flaws have been evident from the start. They're not unique to the last two books. And I kept reading, despite them, because I really loved immersing myself in the heads of the characters. And I didn't see any drop-off in GRRM's ability to do that. Look at the Reek chapters, for example.

[Recently]

The cliffhangers left by aDwD are definitely more intense imo (especially what happens to jon and stannis and YG) aFFC didn't really have cliffhangers like that, aside from the general "gee i wish i knew what is gonna happen plot-wise in the general sense".

I'd say i'm anticipating the next book a little bit more because of the cliffhangers, but at the same time i'm setting the bar lower in terms of expectations due to aDwD and its completely and utter lack of progress in the dany and anything related to dany chapters.

[Ajunoo]

I am excited, but notably less so than last time. I'm not really sure why, as a whole I liked aDwD, but I really hate this "ok first I'll tell the story for that half of the cast, and in the next book I will tell what happened to the other half in the meantime. Not only does it take away from the surprise factor (someone said it before here, if something big happened, we'd know it), but it also prevents you from reading what happened to your favourite characters for a good 5-6 years. Plus, there are some REALLY boring POV's in Ice&Fire. Felt like nothing much happened in ADWD, and that characters were....just killing time until they were up to the present (meaning the ending of AFFC). Dany just sitting around her city being slowly dismantled pissed me off to no end.

Like the series, was great to read it again, disliked the almost no story progression, kinda disliked Dany this book, kinda disliked all the cliffhangers, dislike the "parallel books" idea. Still looking forward to the next book.

[Evamitchelle]

My anticipation for The Winds of Winter is even bigger than what it was for ADwD I think, in part because Jaime's arc was more or less resolved at the end of AFFC, while it really isn't in ADwD. It's actually worse than before. I could have waited longer knowing Jaime in a relatively safe position, but with him and Brienne now more or less in jeopardy, I can't wait to read the rest of their story. Theon has also become a great favourite of mine, and I'd like to know what really happened to Jeyne and him. And I want the Freys and Boltons to finally kick the bucket. There;s a whole lot of other reasons of course, but these are the main ones.