[ADwD Spoilers] Daenerys: Neglectful Mother!

[Envie]

I just finished the book, belatedly, and I'm SO MAD AT DAENERYS!

Here's the post I made in the 'parts that made you sad' thread, to explain:

"It made me cry the way Daenerys had locked up her beloved dragons and was neglecting them because she couldn't or wouldn't face their growing aggression towards man (maneaters no less). While two of them are wasting away in a dungeon, and the other has gone feral - she's busy making stupid choices and playing out stupid dramas. I just found the whole slaver city (Harpy crap) politics tedious. The direction Dany went in this book was such a letdown for me, even though I know its part of her growth and learning and that she must 'go backwards to go forwards' and all that. I hated every excruciating minute of it!

I kept yelling at my book "You dumb woman, go down there and take care of your REAL CHILDREN and forget about these ridiculous slaves who don't even appreciate you freeing them!!!!"

Major bummer. :thumbsdown:

[Ray Stark]

I agree 100%.

Her sole focus should have been trying to train the dragons. Sending people to research dragon training & lore, spending every spare moment with the dragons & certainly not confining the dragons as to stunt their growth. Argh!

[GreyJackal]

She's one of those mothers that leaves her kids in the living and turns on Dora the explorer while she goes in the back room with the door closed to "get her freak on".

[Jem]

The dragons are the cute puppies that Dany got for Christmas. She carried them around in her handbag for a few months and was all "look at me! look at me!". Then she ignored them when they got too big for her handbag and then she sent them to the pound after they ate the neighbour's cat. Train your pets early people. There is no such thing as a bad dog (dragon), just a bad dog (dragon) owner!

[Joanna vander Poele]

The dragons are the cute puppies that Dany got for Christmas. She carried them around in her handbag for a few months and was all "look at me! look at me!". Then she ignored them when they got too big for her handbag and then she sent them to the pound after they ate the neighbour's cat. Train your pets early people. There is no such thing as a bad dog (dragon), just a bad dog (dragon) owner!

Did you miss the part where Drogon ate a human child?

I was sad about the dragons too, I love human-animal interactions, but let's be real, Dany's dragons are not domesticated fluffy little kittens, they're wild, savage beasts of war, and I can't exactly blame her for being too scared to deal with them.

[Envie]

The dragons are the cute puppies that Dany got for Christmas. She carried them around in her handbag for a few months and was all "look at me! look at me!". Then she ignored them when they got too big for her handbag and then she sent them to the pound after they ate the neighbour's cat. Train your pets early people. There is no such thing as a bad dog (dragon), just a bad dog (dragon) owner!

Exactly!! As soon as her dragons did something 'naughty' - she chains them up and forgets about them? :worried:

She's got some serious work ahead of her if she expects them to mind her and do her will. Plus, she's just one rider (I assume for Drogon only) and I'm afraid if she doesn't find riders for Rhaegal and Viserion, they're going to fly off and leave her scrappy ass. Rhaegal's already showing to be a bit more angry than Viserion since he cooked poor Quentyn like a french fry.

Definitely bad dragon-owner/training. Lets hope those poisonous berries (and all that pooping and bleeding) has done the trick to clean out our dear little Queen's addle-brained wits as well as her guts. :stillsick: Get yourself to some Parenting classes Dany!

[Envie]

Did you miss the part where Drogon ate a human child?

I was sad about the dragons too, I love human-animal interactions, but let's be real, Dany's dragons are not domesticated fluffy little kittens, they're wild, savage beasts of war, and I can't exactly blame her for being too scared to deal with them.

No, I didn't miss it at all. I know that's why she's done it (that and the distraction of Meereen politics and a sellsword lover). Still doesn't make it the right thing to do. As someone else said, she should have been devoting most of her time to learning how to be a strong dragon trainer. Chaining them up certainly isn't going to make them more docile. In fact as we found out, it just made it worse! I realize these are not just dogs, or pets. However, one dead human child isn't going to end the rebirth of dragons and the Targaryen dynasty. She messed up. We may put a dog to sleep if it attacks or kills a child, but these are dragons - never forget:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

[Jem]

Did you miss the part where Drogon ate a human child?

I was sad about the dragons too, I love human-animal interactions, but let's be real, Dany's dragons are not domesticated fluffy little kittens, they're wild, savage beasts of war, and I can't exactly blame her for being too scared to deal with them.

Yes, but we are looking at this from the dragons point of view. I understand that many people don't have an affinity for animals so they may not be able to do this. But imagine, if you can, that you are the treasured 'child' of a woman who carries you around, whose milk you have suckled, who hand feeds you, who parades you around and fetes you. Then suddenly she locks you away in the dark and neglects you!

We get it: bad dragon! musn't eat children! But the dragon is just being a dragon - it isn't being bad. Dany should have forseen that this would happen! She is supposed to be the blood of the dragon, and what is a dragon but a fearsome beast - not a lap dog for crying out loud! She is exactly like those negligent pet owners that get a cute puppy but are too lazy to train it. It is incredibly cruel and negligent and the poor beast suffers for it. It is also like stupid parents who thoughtlessly breed and then neglect their offspring who then grow up unruly and end up in prison. Dany is a neglectful mother!

[Neffaria]

if my dragon ate a kid, he'd be grounded. and not locked in the pits grounded either. I know I know, they're mean, they're vicious, they're killers. but really? she should have done something a little more proactive.If my kid say started skinning animals, or something of a violent nature that was what i considered bad, I wouldnt lock my kid in the basement, or just smile and say oh kids'll be kids. Id be looking for answers on behavior and such, she really should have sent someone to the citadel or any other giant library to snoop around. she acts so bad ass about being "blood of the dragon" and then is too scared to face what they are? she brought em into the world, she can damn well take em out. they may not be fluffy lil kitties, but they arent a standard to wave on a flag post either. they are fire made flesh, and if she cant learn how to handle them theres someone with a horn coming who might be tempted to try

[Kadence]

and I can't exactly blame her for being too scared to deal with them.

So it's OK to leave them chained up and grow inevitably far more scary and uncontrollable? There is no way to defend what Dany was doing here. Her problem she had no plan. She just sat wringing her hands and saying "no talk of dragons" while they were burning through their chains and battering the door. A blind 10 year old could see that this would lead to disaster unless something changed.

As I said in another thread:

---

I find it hard to conceive of how anyone can believe Dany did not horribly mishandle the dragons. What exactly was her plan just chaining them up? Clearly they weren't even going to even stay captive for long, it was obvious they were going to get strong enough to escape on their own in a very short time - they were breaking and melting the chains and putting bumps in the door. Yet she was doing nothing to bring them under control, be a "mother", or anything. She was just being a detached stranger to monsters that could grow strong enough to destroy the city within months. This was pure silliness. Inexcusable. Even if controlling them is "difficult" she has to try something, come up with some ideas. Instead she chained them in a pit and left them there.

And you talk about more pressing concerns - nothing is more pressing or important than the dragons. They are everything to her. And within a short time they would obviously be a bigger threat to the city than all her enemies put together. To put anything as a priority above the dragons would be idiocy of the highest order. It's not like sending out for maesters and dragon history books would distract her anyway, it's not like she'd be doing the work. Though she should have been spending more time in the dragon pit so that she doesn't become a stranger to them. Spending a few hours a week with the dragons is no big deal in terms of time. Dangerous perhaps, but less dangerous than becoming a stranger to the nuclear weapons of her world.

[Jon Snow's Body]

So, rather than try and train them she just locks and hopes the problem will go away? Oh, they're big and wild. Lets ignore them, letting them get bigger and more wild before trying to train them. And why doesn't she spend a single moment of her time trying to figure out how to make them obey her? We've established that there are books on the topic, and it would seem like Ashai is like the PetSmart of dragon lore, yet she can't be bothered to even send an expedition? Maybe if the dragons worshiped her with slave-like devotion she might pay attention to them. Instead they're difficult, so she shuns them like they're good advice.

[tozka]

Oh come on. She devotes all her time to the dragons, who start eating people, the Sons of the Harpy get even bigger support and the city revolts because she ignored them and kill her and her dragons. That's all too possible.

How can she teach them as she has no idea how to train dragons. She spends some time with them but not much because they can freaking fry her. The dragons killed a child, but I suppose that for some that is acceptable loss. After all what is human life worth? She *had to* secure her city before she can deal with her dragons. I liked her arc in this book because Dany faced some very difficult decisions and in many ways she tried to do the best of what she can - she compromised where she should, while trying to stay true to her principles. And that is never easy.

And in hindsight we know it would have been terrible idea to sent for maesters - they are likely to have sent people to kill her dragons than to help her. And where else can she ask for help?

[Envie]

And you talk about more pressing concerns - nothing is more pressing or important than the dragons. They are everything to her. And within a short time they would obviously be a bigger threat to the city than all her enemies put together. To put anything as a priority above the dragons would be idiocy of the highest order. It's not like sending out for maesters and dragon history books would distract her anyway, it's not like she'd be doing the work. Though she should have been spending more time in the dragon pit so that she doesn't become a stranger to them. Spending a few hours a week with the dragons is no big deal in terms of time. Dangerous perhaps, but less dangerous than becoming a stranger to the nuclear weapons of her world.

Well said! How can she honestly delude herself into thinking the political mess she's gotten herself into is more important than dealing with the ever growing problem of her dragons (literally growing)?

I was relieved she was finally having an epiphany at the end of her illness and Drogon's return just before the Khalasar finds her. This gives me hope she's going to get back to the real focus - not only that of dealing with her dangerous dragons, but moving on from Meereen and the hopeless wars of the cities she's been slogging through.

She's gone east, now she can go west. She's gone backwards, now she can move forwards.

[Kadence]

if my dragon ate a kid, he'd be grounded. and not locked in the pits grounded either. I know I know, they're mean, they're vicious, they're killers. but really? she should have done something a little more proactive.If my kid say started skinning animals, or something of a violent nature that was what i considered bad, I wouldnt lock my kid in the basement, or just smile and say oh kids'll be kids. Id be looking for answers on behavior and such, she really should have sent someone to the citadel or any other giant library to snoop around. she acts so bad ass about being "blood of the dragon" and then is too scared to face what they are? she brought em into the world, she can damn well take em out. they may not be fluffy lil kitties, but they arent a standard to wave on a flag post either. they are fire made flesh, and if she cant learn how to handle them theres someone with a horn coming who might be tempted to try

Yes. She had two options with the dragons:

1) Try to figure out how to control and mother them

2) Kill them before they become impossible to kill (which will be very soon)

Oh come on. She devotes all her time to the dragons, who start eating people, the Sons of the Harpy get even bigger support and the city revolts because she ignored them and kill her and her dragons. That's all too possible.

What? So Dany is personally going to look for dragon books? How are they to ake "all her time" exactly? A few hours a week at most feeding them personally in the pit and stroking their muzzles is all that's needed to remind them she exists. The rest of the work would be done by her servants, of which she has hordes.

How can she teach them as she has no idea how to train dragons.

This is what she needs to have her people figure out.

The dragons killed a child, but I suppose that for some that is acceptable loss.

It isn't. And if she doesn't so something about the dragons countless more children and adults will die.

And in hindsight we know it would have been terrible idea to sent for maesters - they are likely to have sent people to kill her dragons than to help her. And where else can she ask for help?

Hindsight is meangingless here as that would have been totally unforseeable by her (Maryn would surely have answered the call anyway and warned her, also it might be one thing to poison the runty stunted dragons as opposed to healthy young ones). The path she chose to trod (or run away from) led nowhere but the death and destruction of everything, of her city, her people and all her dreams. She clearly should have done something. And most dragon lore is about the Essos area anyway, these are the cultures there were ravaged by Valyria for ages.

Really: Dany's actions with the dragons are utterly indefensible.

[Jem]

Plus I have to add: yes the dragons killed a child - that is very sad, but that is what dragons do! What did Dany think? That she could fly into Westeros and kindly ask her dragons to selectively fry this person and that person but to spare the rest?

Dragons are a weapon of mass destruction. Once you bring a dragon into a war, war is no longer the same. It is one thing to have armed men fighting on a field of battle. It is another thing entirely to have dragons swooping overhead, frying every man, woman and child in it's path.

Obviously Dany did not think of this (extrodinarily obvious outcome) before she was presented with a bag of child bones. But instead of either coming to terms with the reality of dragon warcraft OR devising a method of controlling the dragons, Dany just sticks her head in the sand and chooses to ignore the situation.

[Kadence]

I was relieved she was finally having an epiphany at the end of her illness and Drogon's return just before the Khalasar finds her. This gives me hope she's going to get back to the real focus - not only that of dealing with her dangerous dragons, but moving on from Meereen and the hopeless wars of the cities she's been slogging through.

She's gone east, now she can go west. She's gone backwards, now she can move forwards.

The irritating thing is that this book got delayed for years because of the "Meereenese knot", resulting in lots of filler Meereen chapters that most readers didn't like at all - and in the end the solution is Dany having the voices in her head convince her to "F these Meereenese, I'm a dragon"? Seemed like such a waste of time.

I suppose at some point Martin just went "screw this, I'm taking her home" but the whole thing was so unproductive.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think she should have spent more time with them, definitely. Imagine if she had chained Viserion and Rhaegal in her audience chamber. Pure awesome, that.

[A Wolf of Winterfell]

This was one of the more frustrating aspects of Dany's chapters for me as well. The only thing that annoyed me more was her whole 'I'm a twitterpated, dragon queen in heat' shtick for Daario. I became more and more perplexed every time she kept repeating she was the blood of the dragon, mother of dragons, and even came to the conclusion that if her dragons were monsters than so was she, yet still they remained locked up in a deep dark pit for doing what dragons do. Did she really think her dragons would be able to tell the difference between a two-legged meat sack and four-legged one? Meat is meat, a dragon does not discriminate.

Why didn't she make it a priority to train them, to discover how best to control their behavior. She gave some rudimentary training to Drogon, but then proceeded to neglect them as they grew larger and instead found thousands of more poor unfortunates to mother over. You are the mother of DRAGONS Dany, not the mother of slaves. The flashy guy with the gold tooth is only sleeping with you because of those badass fire breathers you gave "birth" to, not because of the dirty squatters you keep at the bottom of your pyramid.

[tozka]

What? So Dany is personally going to look for dragon books? How are they to ake "all her time" exactly? A few hours a week at most feeding them personally in the pit and stroking their muzzles is all that's needed to remind them she exists. The rest of the work would be done by her servants, of which she has hordes.

This is what she needs to have her people figure out.

Where is she going to find Dragon books. I doubt Meereen has it. This part of the world feared dragons and are likely to have destroyed everything that has anything to do with dragons but she should have sent people out to search for something. Even if they just walk pointlessly from city to city. That I have to agree. I don't understand why she did not do it. It was a mistake.

Hindsight is meangingless here as that would have been totally unforseeable by her (Maryn would surely have answered the call anyway and warned her, also it might be one thing to poison the runty stunted dragons as opposed to healthy young ones).

What I meant is that asking people of uncertain allegiance for help with something *that* big is very risky.

The path she chose to trod (or run away from) led nowhere but the death and destruction of everything, of her city, her people and all her

Are we talking about ADWD ? Or maybe you've read Winds of Winter. Give me a copy then will you. Please. please. pleaaaase. The last we saw Dany in her city she just have achieved the peace with the Yunkai and the naval blockade was lifted and someone maybe (we don't know for sure she was the target) tried to kill her (if it was Hizdahr it is hardly the first marriage where spouses try to off each other, not big deal.) and Drogo showed up and she went to ride it. And then things start going bad, only after she disappeared (to actually spent time with her dragon). But as Tyrion said - Dany is actually *winning* this war - The Seconds Sons need to change their cloaks again.

She clearly should have done something. And most dragon lore is about the Essos area anyway, these are the cultures there were ravaged by Valyria for ages.

As I mentioned they feared and hated dragons - likely most of the lore was destroyed. But nevertheless Dany should have tried sending people. Though of course how was she gonna send them. All the other cities were denied to her. And she cannot send people by sea since she does not have ships and there is a blockade on the way. Still I supposed she should have thought in this direction. Dis she ? I think not. Oh well she *is* a young girl. She still learns but considering everything - her inexperience , all the problems she has to face it's hardly inexcusable that she want to set aside the dragons for the time being. But she does learns from the mistakes she makes and she never repeat them twice.

[Raksha the Demon]

I have the feeling that when the dragons were little, Dany expected that they would instinctively always listen to her, that there was some kind of magical Targaryen connection that would control them as they grew.

We know that Aegon and his sisters used three huge dragons to help them conquer Westeros; and used them in military maneuvers. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that Aegon & sisters either knew how to tame and train the dragons on selective toasting (i.e. how to NOT fricassee the Targaryen troops, but fricassee the other lords' troops), or employed people who did the taming and training. Neither we nor Dany know how this training was accomplished, by magic, spells, or animal psychology? It is noteworthy that the Targaryen's later dragons, once they had conquered Westeros, were kept in pits and became progressively smaller and died out. I wonder why Aegon's three dragons could be (apparently) trusted to fly free and grow large but their descendants could not?

Dany should have started at least making more of a concerted effort to control her dragons from the time they were babies. She could have sent Jorah in secret to ransack the libraries of King's Landing, to try to find some books on the subject, or some old Targaryen loyalists who could have told her more about Targaryen history. Why didn't Dany head to Valyria to look for clues on dragon origins? Without control of the dragons, Dany is a young girl with a normal army of foreigners with the idea of reclaiming Westeros. If the dragons cannot be controlled, they will be useless in war and lethal in peace. And it seems to me that Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon are rapidly approaching an age where they will be too wild and dangerous to even try to tame; though the fact that Drogon listened to Dany and lay down so she could mount him is a good sign...At the end of ADWD, Dany is just letting Drogon chomp on Dothraki horses; I mean, of course the dragon's hungry, but she is letting her baby have his way with other people's livestock; again.