[ADwD Spoilers] Daenerys: Neglectful Mother!

[Roza Ahai]

Its almost a joke. Just like her walking into a funeral pyre hot enough to make dragon eggs hatch and just getting her hair burnt off. This scene one and for all, I hope, establishes her Mary Sueness.

I find especially funny her whip. The dragon is not a lion. Whipping should be useless if Drogon is a real dragon.

[Roza Ahai]

With people talking in her head, she is on her way to becoming "Mad Queen Daenerys".

Who knows where Mad Aerys paranoya comes from. He might have voices in his head talking to him how dangerous are Lannisters, Starks and his son. "It comes lion, direwolf, stag and mummer's dragon!", "Beware of the direwolf!"

[Kadence]

Its almost a joke. Just like her walking into a funeral pyre hot enough to make dragon eggs hatch and just getting her hair burnt off. This scene one and for all, I hope, establishes her Mary Sueness.

I don't have a problem whatsoever with the funeral pyre scene by itself - it is epic and awesome and I loved it. This is a fantasy work, after all. And that was a terrific payoff. It was good stuff. And it was mixed in well because of all the horribly tragic events that befall the good guys just before that.

The problem is that this kind of stuff shouldn't be overdone, and Dany isn't establishing herself as an individual of merit beyond the magic Dragon Whisperer powers. She needs more substance.

Who knows where Mad Aerys paranoya comes from. He might have voices in his head talking to him how dangerous are Lannisters, Starks and his son. "It comes lion, direwolf, stag and mummer's dragon!", "Beware of the direwolf!"

The Knight of the Laughing Tree story did have him say that the KotL was "no friend of mine", which most take to mean he had a dragon dream about her causing bad things for his house. Dragon dreams(nightmares)+Varys whispering+Defiance of Duskendale+resentment of Tywin=Mad King, I think.

[Ser Pistus]

Anyway, that Drogon completely failed to bite her while she was whipping him - she dodged his bites and his dragonfire like Peter Park dodging Flash Thompson - and he just stood there taking the whipping until he submitted, well, it's pretty hard as a reader to swallow.

As I said before, Drogon probably recognized her. What is hard to swallow in the interpretation that the dragon did not want to kill his mother? For me, he opposite would be hard to swallow. Drogon just shot a few warning fires towards Dany that accidentally caught her hair. Contrast that to Quentyn, whose whole body caught fire after a well aimed firebreath.

Its almost a joke. Just like her walking into a funeral pyre hot enough to make dragon eggs hatch and just getting her hair burnt off. This scene one and for all, I hope, establishes her Mary Sueness.

That funeral pyre was a huge fire-and-blood magic, the same that Melisandre used to talk about (you know, blood of a king wakes dragons from stone). Everything in that scene suggests that Dany knew she will not burn. Read again.

[The Sand Snake]

As I said before, Drogon probably recognized her. What is hard to swallow in the interpretation that the dragon did not want to kill his mother? For me, he opposite would be hard to swallow. Drogon just shot a few warning fires towards Dany that accidentally caught her hair. Contrast that to Quentyn, whose whole body caught fire after a well aimed firebreath.

That funeral pyre was a huge fire-and-blood magic, the same that Melisandre used to talk about (you know, blood of a king wakes dragons from stone). Everything in that scene suggests that Dany knew she will not burn. Read again.

We've been over this. No matter what she thinks would have happened, it was a "miracle" she lived GRRM has said. It was discussed in some topic months ago in the general asoiaf part. Miracle she didnt die is basically another word for cop out storyline. WHen other targaryens have done dumb stuff like that, they died. Yet Dany lives and gets dragons. Then, later, she whips one into submisson. She whipped a dragon who had been living in the wild for months. WHipped it. come on now

[variance]

We've been over this. No matter what she thinks would have happened, it was a "miracle" she lived GRRM has said. It was discussed in some topic months ago in the general asoiaf part. Miracle she didnt die is basically another word for cop out storyline. WHen other targaryens have done dumb stuff like that, they died. Yet Dany lives and gets dragons. Then, later, she whips one into submisson. She whipped a dragon who had been living in the wild for months. WHipped it. come on now

She knew fire didn't harm her earlier on in AGoT. I think you should go reread the Dany chapters.

[The Sand Snake]

She knew fire didn't harm her earlier on in AGoT. I think you should go reread the Dany chapters.

How does fire not harm someone? Is she invincible? This is why alot of people hate her.

And maybe you should re-read what I just said. Im saying that we've talked about this on here and GRRM has said before that the fact that Dany did not die in that pyre was a "miracle". Which is dumb.

[Roza Ahai]

She knew fire didn't harm her earlier on in AGoT. I think you should go reread the Dany chapters.

She was so sure that her children woould not burn her. Why did not she take care of them before? She knew that nobody except her was fire resistant. Other slaves gave the food to her dragons. She endangered those slaves by sending them to the dragons pit. She sent other people to catch Dragon. That was redicilous. She released them into the realm and she herself should go and catch Drogon. That was her fault that other people have died in Drogons flame. Her children should be her priority because they are dangerous beasts.

P.S. Martin mentioned that Dany did not burn in that fire was one time event.

[Ser Pistus]

We've been over this. No matter what she thinks would have happened, it was a "miracle" she lived GRRM has said. It was discussed in some topic months ago in the general asoiaf part. Miracle she didnt die is basically another word for cop out storyline. WHen other targaryens have done dumb stuff like that, they died. Yet Dany lives and gets dragons. Then, later, she whips one into submisson. She whipped a dragon who had been living in the wild for months. WHipped it. come on now

GRRM actually said "unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle". It might be a "cop out storyline" for you (what the hell is that?), it is firemagic for me.

[Sega AM2]

We've been over this. No matter what she thinks would have happened, it was a "miracle" she lived GRRM has said. It was discussed in some topic months ago in the general asoiaf part. Miracle she didnt die is basically another word for cop out storyline.

It's not a cop out. It's clearly foreshadowed and built up, the birth of her Dragons. Whenever she touches the eggs they feel warm and full of life. When others touch the eggs they only feel cold and stone. Dany dreams of Dragons every night and even feels rejuvenated by Dragonfire in her dreams. She throws the eggs into a fire one night to try to hatch them. She clearly knows that the Dragons are stirring.

She knew fire didn't harm her earlier on in AGoT. I think you should go reread the Dany chapters.

Exactly.

When she steps into the bathtub the water is boiling hot and it feels fine to her. When Viserys is crowned Dany thinks to herself "he was no dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon". The foreshadowing is very obvious. Fire cannot kill Dany when she walks into a giant blazing funeral pyre.

The Dragons hatching is the pure dumb luck for Dany. Not her not burning in the fire. It is clear from the hints of Summerhall that bloodmagic and other dangerous spells have been used to try to raise Dragons. And Melisandre makes it pretty clear that burning alive someone with King's blood can awaken Dragons from stone. Dany just happens to have a King, Khal Drogo, a sacrifice of a horse, and a live sacrifice of MMD. The perfect ingredients for some Dragon raising. And Dany already has the eggs incubated or whatever because of her connected as a Targ. Dragon's blood.

WHen other targaryens have done dumb stuff like that, they died. Yet Dany lives and gets dragons. Then, later, she whips one into submisson. She whipped a dragon who had been living in the wild for months. WHipped it. come on now

The whipping thing is a major inconsistency for me. The Slaver in ASOS clearly whips Drogon to try to get him to submit. But Dany tells him "You are having a trouble. A Dragon is no slave". Clearly the Dragons do not submit to whips and shouts. Oh...until GRRM needs them to that is. Because Dany whips and shouts at Drogon and he magically behaves for her.

Why does Dany never train with her Dragons through the entirety of ADWD? Because they are too wild. Yet Drogon is completely calmed down with a few whips and a few shouts from Dany. And Dany rides him thousands of feet into the air and he doesn't buck her off. But Dany couldn't have figured that out before her second to last chapter or whatever? That was the cop out for me. The fact that the Dragons are allegedly not slaves and are free willed and wild. But Dany takes all over five seconds to tame Drogon, her most violent Dragons, into riding her around in the sky and leaving his freshly killed and roasted dinner. Whatever.

She was so sure that her children woould not burn her. Why did not she take care of them before? She knew that nobody except her was fire resistant.

Because her chapters aren't written consistently. She abandons her Dragons in ADWD for no reason at the start of that book. She chains them up and lets Drogon wander around without any legitimate reason. In ACOK and ASOS she is the fierce Mother of Dragons. Drogon burns down the House of the Undying and senses her fear and danger. In ASOS the Dragons obey her will and burn the Slavers and eat their corpses. But all of the sudden in ADWD the Dragons have gone wild and crazy? I didn't buy it. GRRM needed the Dragons wild for plot purposes, probably Tyrion the Dragon Whisperer, and for Vicatarion's Horn of Hell.

Other slaves gave the food to her dragons. She endangered those slaves by sending them to the dragons pit. She sent other people to catch Dragon. That was redicilous. She released them into the realm and she herself should go and catch Drogon. That was her fault that other people have died in Drogons flame. Her children should be her priority because they are dangerous beasts.

Dany's priority was getting laid with Daario. Or avoiding her duty as Queen. Her Dragons come in last place on her list of things to do. A complete turnaround from the Dany of the previous books but I guess GRRM wanted her to abandon the Dragons and didn't need to justify it in the text.

[Marcus of the South]

'Cop out storyline'? If anything magic is a cop out storyline I suggest you're in the wrong series. Also the wrong genre. She didn't die because she's got magic powers. Whether she's shown anything deserving of them or not is another story. But suggesting that it's a cop out to have her not die when magic makes her survive in a magical universe isn't accurate, I don't think.

The series may have a lot of 'normal' political intrigue in it but that doesn't mean that's what it's 'about'.

Edit: Dany's priority in the past books has been protecting her dragons, as they've never really shown any independence or aggressiveness before. Now they're a danger to others but they're at no risk of dying because she's had them confined, and she gets drowned under worrying about Meereen. She didn't abandon them.

Given the 'dragons have only one rider/can't ride more than one dragon' I wonder what would've happened had she tried the same with Viserion or Rhaegal.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

She knew fire didn't harm her earlier on in AGoT. I think you should go reread the Dany chapters.

A quote from the beginning of the last Daenerys-chapter:

The rocks had scraped

her hands raw. They are better than they were, though, she decided as she picked at a broken blister.

Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns

were healing.

I thought Danys hands got burned when she mounted Drogon.

[Envie]

A quote from the beginning of the last Daenerys-chapter:

I thought Danys hands got burned when she mounted Drogon.

Good catch on that - so Dany did get burnt this last time, she's not completely impervious to fire. She's more fire resistant than fireproof? Or, maybe the blood magic of the pyre scene made her fire resistance so strong she was completely invulnerable, but in other situations she's more vulnerable and can be burned.

Regardless of how she did it, the important thing to me is that Drogon allowed her to mount him and didn't shake her off mid-flight, which would have been easy for him to do since she had no rope/bridle or harness to keep her on his back. A quick sharp turn would have thrown her off easily. And don't forget, she's been wandering around in the wilds near his lair for quite some time and sharing his lair, the water pool next to it, and his food kills too. Drogon's definitely accepted her as master, even if he refuses to fly her back to Mereen. She's been 'practicing' with him everyday... Remember the bits about how when she rode a horse, a kick to its right flank made it go left (away from danger), whereas with the dragon, a kick to the right made it go right (to attack the danger)? Daeny's learning to fly and control Drogon in flight, but not completely since he refuses to take her where she wants to go (back to the city). Seriously, I think he's doing that on purpose because he knows its the wrong place for her to be as she's not being a good Mother to him or the other two there.

Drogon is saving Daenerys if you ask me.

[Cricket]

When she steps into the bathtub the water is boiling hot and it feels fine to her. When Viserys is crowned Dany thinks to herself "he was no dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon". The foreshadowing is very obvious. Fire cannot kill Dany when she walks into a giant blazing funeral pyre.

I think you take some of those passages too literally. Quite a few characters have bathed in water described as "scalding" (Sansa, Theon and Arya to name a few). This is just hyperbole to show their bathwater is hot. Dany doesn't bathe in water hot enough to burn human skin; maybe hot enough to be uncomfortable for most, but not beyond human tolerance. And I think Dany's quote about Viserys meant she thought he was unfit to be Targaryen. Which he was. He got killed in a pitiful way that could've been easily avoided had he not acted like a complete a**hole. She was not literally saying a Targaryen is physically capable of withstanding the temperature of molten gold. If her people had that ability we wouldn't be hearing about that from just Dany, something like that should be near famous as the ability to rear dragons.

The funeral pyre is the one time she actually does withstand fire, but I think that was clearly a miraculous event, not some Targ mutant power she has.

[Gabriele]

Who is this woman and what did she do with the real Daenerys?

She's Roz. :D

[Tully to a T]

No, I didn't miss it at all. I know that's why she's done it (that and the distraction of Meereen politics and a sellsword lover). Still doesn't make it the right thing to do. As someone else said, she should have been devoting most of her time to learning how to be a strong dragon trainer. Chaining them up certainly isn't going to make them more docile. In fact as we found out, it just made it worse! I realize these are not just dogs, or pets. However, one dead human child isn't going to end the rebirth of dragons and the Targaryen dynasty. She messed up. We may put a dog to sleep if it attacks or kills a child, but these are dragons - never forget:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

I understood her initial horror at discovering that her dragons had developed a taste for little children, but -- I hate to say this -- isn't that what they're for? Not eating children, I don't mean that, but kicking butt on the battlefield, heck yeah! The dragons didn't make the Targaryens powerful because they could fly from one end of Westeros to another in four hours, but because they could burn entire armies to a crisp in the matter of a few minutes. The Dany of DwD seems to have completely forgotten that she is preparing to go to war (or did she think the various Kings in Westeros would just lay down their arms at the first sight of her?), and that her dragons are going to kill quite a few people in the process, some of them children.

I think it was Tyrion who made the excellent point that a dragon on the flame is not going to distinguish between banners. They are weapons of mass destruction, and are most useful for their ability to motivate a quick surrender than for any sort of precision warfare. (Where's Temeraire when you need him?!). :read:

She needs to find riders for the other two and fast, figure out how to train them to at least aim the flames at the guys in the metal suits, and get sorted in her own mind whether she is truly prepared to use them in her coming battles. I don't think she has any idea what she's gotten herself into. Maybe that reality is what caused her to panic and lock them up for almost 900 pages (arrrrgh!).

[The Sand Snake]

The funeral pyre is the one time she actually does withstand fire, but I think that was clearly a miraculous event, not some Targ mutant power she has.

Exactly. Fire kills Targs. Its happened before multiple times. Some people clearly seem to think dany is fire proof, which is the dumbest thing ever. Is she a god? No. Well then shes not fire proof.

The funeral pyre, was too me, the most unbeliveable parts of these books. The fact that some fire magic helped her withstand the blaze IMO is stupid. As I said before, her cowed Drogon with a whip as he was spitting fire and roasting people and clearing freaking out is also not believeable.

[Envie]

I think it was Tyrion who made the excellent point that a dragon on the flame is not going to distinguish between banners. They are weapons of mass destruction, and are most useful for their ability to motivate a quick surrender than for any sort of precision warfare. (Where's Temeraire when you need him?!). :read:

She needs to find riders for the other two and fast, figure out how to train them to at least aim the flames at the guys in the metal suits, and get sorted in her own mind whether she is truly prepared to use them in her coming battles. I don't think she has any idea what she's gotten herself into. Maybe that reality is what caused her to panic and lock them up for almost 900 pages (arrrrgh!).

Tyrion's remark about dragons being indiscriminate killers is of course spot on. Even more reason he needs to be Dany's Hand! He'll toughen her up in preparation for the reality that is Westeros war. She's seen the devastation of war (Dothraki killing/raping of Lamb-men) but she still hasn't accepted that her own war, with dragons, will be deadly in its own right.

Unfortunately Dany seems to think killing must only be of legitimate adults guilty of war crimes... and everytime there's been women, slaves or children involved, she's gotten unreasonable and very upset/touchy. While we can applaud this noble sense, its just not going to be possible. The innocents always get caught up in the crossfire as lords and kings play their game of thrones.

Daenerys cannot lock up her dragons and ignore them in hopes the horror of dead/eaten children will go away. If anything, locking them up has caused worse innocent deaths (such as those families in the pyramids that were killed when the dragons took up residence for their lairs after escaping). She's made an even worse situation now as they will rampage and eat whoever they please. Keeping an all-you-can-eat sheep/ox buffet in the pit fighter arenas isn't going to work forever...

You're right, she's got to get this sorted out in her head soon! (hopefully having the craps from poisonous berries, bleeding heavily and starving will purge her head too)

I'm just so bummed that we were left hanging with so many unresolved major issues for most of the main characters. I really thought that at least Daeny's situation would change - but you're right... 1k+ pages in the book and she's still not gotten her dragon's back in order and completely buried in Mereen crap (literally if you count the pale mare)... ARRRGH!! :tantrum:

[Marcus of the South]

Exactly. Fire kills Targs. Its happened before multiple times. Some people clearly seem to think dany is fire proof, which is the dumbest thing ever. Is she a god? No. Well then shes not fire proof.

The funeral pyre, was too me, the most unbeliveable parts of these books. The fact that some fire magic helped her withstand the blaze IMO is stupid. As I said before, her cowed Drogon with a whip as he was spitting fire and roasting people and clearing freaking out is also not believeable.

Is it more or less unbelievable than the dead being reanimated through ice or fire, a ladder made out of fire, dragons existing, seasons that last for ten years or a giving birth to a shadow that slits someone's throat through their armour?

[L’Age d’or]

I still cant believe she threw her Dragons in the pit so she could suck Daario's cock in peace...