[ADwD Spoilers] Daenerys: Neglectful Mother!

[longlivestark]

I've never put a lot of stock into all that crap Mirri Maz Duur spouted at her. This woman tricked Daenerys with the blood magic promise and caused her to lose her baby in the process. I don't believe she'd tell Dany the real truth at all. I don't think she's barren. Why is this Lhazareen healer/witch given so much credibility?

Because she had no reason to lie, why lie about Dany being barren? It's not like Dany thinking she is barren would stop her from getting pregnant if she were to sleep with another man, not to mention when MMD said this it was not about Dany being barren, it was about Drogo being in a near dead state forever

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I love the point of Dany's chapters, or at least what I perceived them to be: That as the Mother of Dragons, she's not well-suited to be a peace-time ruler. That dragons aren't cute little pets who would do well sitting around. They are conquering beasts, just like Dany seems to be at her best on the move and in battle, not ruling during peace-time.

But again, I have to insist she made several awful decisions. She managed to take herself from a position of power into a position of weakness in a rather short period of time, by being too merciful towards the Sons of Harpy and too stubborn on the slavery issue, she managed to pretty much alienate every single one of her supporter.

But the proof's in the pudding. If she had taken the advice of many of her advisers (e.g. Barristan's idea to march on Yunkai, Shavepate's idea to murder innocent child hostages, etc), she would be in a much weaker strategic/military position than she is in at the end of the book, IMO. Her army is unblooded, and the civil war has stopped. Meanwhile her enemies are weak and getting weaker (starving and dying of plague). Marrying Hizdar sucked but it had to be done to maintain her position militarily. Besides he's dragonmeat now.

As to the bolded part, she still has the support of the vast majority of the population of Meereen so it's simply wrong to say she alienated all of her supporters. It's easy to forget how numerous the former slaves are. Now we can argue how useful that support is - mostly the Freedmen are too afraid to be very useful. But they will fight and die for their freedom if they are asked.

I think the best way to fix everything next book is to quickly have her convince the Khal to help her, hopefully form some sort of alliance with Victarion's fleet, and then lay destruction on all the slavers and leave for Westeros, definitely by the end of the book. If she does not, I would assume she's never making it to Westeros.

Quick is the key word, though I'm so certain Dany will arrive in Westeros that I don't even worry about that. :) But I still don't think she can just fry all the former slavers, hand things over, and assume that will work. She already tried that in Astapor. She has to leave someone to rule in her stead. She does need to completely crush the Yunkish army, though, so that her new city can at least open trade and agriculture again.

So... like Robert? Westeros doesn't need another warrior king, it needs someone who can heal the realm and make it stronger. If Dany can't manage to rule in peace, then she has no right marching off to conquest.

The dragon has three heads.

I don't know who they are yet, but one (or both) of the other "heads" can see to boring-ass peacetime affairs while Dany sees to the defense of the realm, her specialty.

Still I'm not fixed on Dany taking the Iron Throne. My best guess is she dies fighting The Others. I do however think she has a right to the throne as strong as Rickon or Sansa's right to Winterfell.

Yeah, but Dany wants vengeance on people that most other people like, unlike Jon who wants to fight the Boltons (who are pretty evil), where as Dany wants vengeance on the Starks (who are, arguably, the protagonist family), Jaime (who is now insanely popular), doesn't help that she has never met these people and the fact she presumes to know things about them when she really knows nothing about them at all, except the things her insane brother told her.

And how does this reflect poorly on Dany? That's the reader's biases there and I hope most readers can realize this (though given how many times people say how "stupid" Dany is for wanting revenge on Ned that sadly this is apparently not the case). Rickon hasn't met Ramsey Bolton or Walder Frey, either! They could be all rainbows and butterflies for all some of the Starks know. The reader knows Ramsey is scum. The reader knows Ned's a good guy. The characters do not have this knowledge and we should not judge them for it.

As far as we know, Dany can't restore the Targaryen dynasty. She's supposedly barren, which means that she could destroy westeros, rule it until she died, and then start another inheritance-war when she leaves no heirs.

It's a problem but it doens't bother me. Queen Elizabeth, etc.

[Sword in the Morning]

Why is this Lhazareen healer/witch given so much credibility?

Because she was successful. She managed to ruin Drogo and kill Rhaego. Her magic, by all appearances, worked. She was a spiteful hag at the end of her rope and she wanted to spit upon Dany and cause her fear. Why would she issue an empty threat of barrenness, if all Dany had to do to prove it wrong was attempt to produce another heir? Moreover, it was mentioned in context of "things that will happen before Drogo returns to normal" including the sun rising in the west, and the mountains being blown over in the wind, etc.

If she really wanted to, Mirri Maaz Duur didn't even need to use magic, she could have just reached up in there while Dany was out cold and snipped a few vital tubes.

[Envie]

Because she was successful. She managed to ruin Drogo and kill Rhaego. Her magic, by all appearances, worked. She was a spiteful hag at the end of her rope and she wanted to spit upon Dany and cause her fear. Why would she issue an empty threat of barrenness, if all Dany had to do to prove it wrong was attempt to produce another heir? Moreover, it was mentioned in context of "things that will happen before Drogo returns to normal" including the sun rising in the west, and the mountains being blown over in the wind, etc.

If she really wanted to, Mirri Maaz Duur didn't even need to use magic, she could have just reached up in there while Dany was out cold and snipped a few vital tubes.

I see your point, I do. I still don't believe the witch had future-telling abilities. If anything, it might have been a hint by GRRM that another form of Drogo (Drogon) would be the only way he would be as powerful as he once was in any way at all. But I don't believe Dany is barren just because the old hag said so. Prophecies are a pretty slippery thing in these books and as we already know, the interpretation of them is left wide open and often is wrong. Dead wrong.

But I digress, there are plenty of other threads all about prophecies! This one's about the dragons and Daenerys' neglect of them in favor of being "Mother of Slaves" instead.

I do believe Dany's noble sense of righteousness is both a help and a hindrance to her. She's got a real soft spot for the suffering of innocents, which is why her dragons were supposedly chained up in the first place. She could not bear the thought of them killing another child (if in fact they did do that).

The problem is, she's gone and created an even worse situation. Now her dragons are even more dangerous than when they were preying on sheep and farmer's kids. Now they are on the loose, much larger, and pissed off from being chained up. Making lairs in the tops of the pyramids, roasting people inside, and feasting on whatever they want now.

I would say it was definitely not helping protect the innocent by trying to lock the dragons away. :(

Now she's not even there to try and call the other two back. What do you think is going to happen to them? Will they become like feral cats, unable to be approached by anyone, even Daenerys herself?

[Of House Gnome]

I have to reread the chapter where she rides Drogon but I don't get why people are stuck on it. True whip won't hurt him (unless it strikes his eyes) but its not the whip he's responding to. Its the whipper. His mother come again and putting him in his place. I am also not convinced that Danny will need spells or horns to control dragons. They are animals perhaps more perceptive intelligent and obviously much larger than others but why would they been unbondable. Again don't jump down my throat since I admit I have to reread but Danny has strange fleeting dreams which feel all too real showing her connection to V and R. And when Drogon was stabbed she felt a shock of pain. Now it could be empathy because she loves her dragons but I suspect its a deeper connection. Im convinced the dragon (danny) has three heads.

And where the hell is Marwyn?

[taurunum dire cat]

This just poped to my minde

Dany shouts at Drogon-he hieset ather

Dany hit him with a whip-he spet fire on her

Dany mounts him and he is tamed just like Drogo was....

[Frostking]

I hated Dany and pretty much all her decisions in this book. It would be a travesty if someone as foolish as her came to rule Westeros simply because she has dragons/is a targaryen. Ultimately I think her Dragons will be her legacy but that she'll die in the conflict with maybe the Others or maybe fighting for the throne.

[Kadence]

But the proof's in the pudding. If she had taken the advice of many of her advisers (e.g. Barristan's idea to march on Yunkai, Shavepate's idea to murder innocent child hostages, etc), she would be in a much weaker strategic/military position than she is in at the end of the book, IMO. Her army is unblooded, and the civil war has stopped. Meanwhile her enemies are weak and getting weaker (starving and dying of plague). Marrying Hizdar sucked but it had to be done to maintain her position militarily. Besides he's dragonmeat now.

None of this is true though. You can't say Dany's didn't make horrid decision after horrid decision. That's exactly what she did. She took hostages who she'd never harm - she should have taken older boys and young men as hostages, not tiny girls. What in the world is the point of taking hostages you can't hurt? She is "tough" when she shouldn't be - condoning the torture of the wine seller's daughters who might have been completely innocent. She also fined all the noble families for the actions of the sons of the harpy, which if she had any friends among the nobles would drive them away (and surely she had some opportunists who wanted to be her friends, like Shavepate). And yet she's utterly weak when she should be tough. Almost every decision of hers is backwards in terms of toughness vs. compassion/stick vs. carrot.

Her advisors do give her decent advice, although she needs to tone it down. For instance Shavepate is competent but too bloodthirsty. But instead of following his advice but in toned down terms, she ignores it completely, or follows his worst advice (fining all the nobles - it wasn't gone over in the books but this was political suicide, she turns any friends and potential friends into enemies whose best interest is to see her overthrown). Her ability to filter advice is horrid.

There's also the absolute lunatic decision to "shame" her soldiers to try and care for the plague infected (meanwhile it's worth noting she considers herself magically impervious to disease, so this wasn't even really the brave action it seemed like on the surface). Truly, that was an epically awful decision doomed to quicken the spread of the plague. People really don't mention how awful this was enough. It's arguable that this was even dumber than marrying Hizdahr.

So her decisions were repeatedly foolish, topped off by marrying an untrustworthy slaver loser. She could have bought him off at a much cheaper price. I don't believe Hizdahr was the Harpy but Hizdarh brought very, very little to the table in terms of marriage - plus marrying him is basically throwing Westeros away because they'd never accept this clown as king. It's just another stroke of deux ex machina Dany luck that Hizdahr, her biggest mistake, seems doomed thus wiping her slate clean - as usual, at no real cost to her.

Still I'm not fixed on Dany taking the Iron Throne. My best guess is she dies fighting The Others. I do however think she has a right to the throne as strong as Rickon or Sansa's right to Winterfell.

Equally as strong as Sansa's I suppose. Rickon would be similar to Jon, assuming Lyanna married Rhaeghar (which is a safe assumption I believe because there is no other explanation for the three Kingsguard not going after Viserys - guarding the king trumps all duties, so Jon had to be King). Although Jon did take the NW oaths which clouds things. But anyway, the readers care much less about claim than about talent at ruling - though by Ice and Fire standards, I feel that most readers would accept "mostly sane and only a monster on holidays or special occasions" :D Ramsay has the best claim to the Dreadfort - doesn't mean anyone wants to see him live out his days ruling it. Tywin was the legit ruler of Casterly Rock, people still hated him. Dany's claim doesn't mean that people will root for her.

And how does this reflect poorly on Dany? That's the reader's biases there and I hope most readers can realize this (though given how many times people say how "stupid" Dany is for wanting revenge on Ned that sadly this is apparently not the case). Rickon hasn't met Ramsey Bolton or Walder Frey, either! They could be all rainbows and butterflies for all some of the Starks know. The reader knows Ramsey is scum. The reader knows Ned's a good guy. The characters do not have this knowledge and we should not judge them for it.

This is completely ludicrous - how can you compare these things? Everyone tells Jon for instance that Ramsay is a monster. All his actions confirm it. Hell even Ramsay himself confirms it with his letter. Yet people tell Dany that Ned is a good guy and she's heard of not one bad thing he's ever done, other than rebel against Aerys who she now knows was a madman. This is not reader bias, this is willful ignorance.

Which even Dany will probably come around on eventually. I don't see her as a future antagonist to the Starks like other readers. I don't think she's being set up as a villain at all. Just an incompetent ruler so far, though she's quite young and can definitely improve with experience. She is not a lost cause. That said, IMO anyone who thinks she was a decent ruler in Dance needs to do some serious re-evaluation.

[Kadence]

I see your point, I do. I still don't believe the witch had future-telling abilities. If anything, it might have been a hint by GRRM that another form of Drogo (Drogon) would be the only way he would be as powerful as he once was in any way at all. But I don't believe Dany is barren just because the old hag said so. Prophecies are a pretty slippery thing in these books and as we already know, the interpretation of them is left wide open and often is wrong. Dead wrong.

That wasn't really a prophecy though, it seemed more like a medical opinion. One that MMD seemed like she should know about. It was more of a "Drogo ain't ever coming back, by the way you're barren bitch haha." But in any case she seems to have been wrong. Looks like Dany was knocked up by Daario before miscarrying.

I think the stuff with the "prophecy" being fulfilled, (son setting in the west/Quentyn, pyramids blowing, Dothraki sea) was just Martin being playful. I believe that was all intentional, but that it was never a real prophecy.

I hated Dany and pretty much all her decisions in this book. It would be a travesty if someone as foolish as her came to rule Westeros simply because she has dragons/is a targaryen. Ultimately I think her Dragons will be her legacy but that she'll die in the conflict with maybe the Others or maybe fighting for the throne.

The "bride of fire" prophecy seems like it is very probably husband related, so with the blue fire in ice thing I'd assume a Dany+Jon marriage is where the series will end. Though I personally think they make a horrid couple and don't see how the hell they'd love each other - they have nothing in common, and not in an "opposites attract" way either. Dany likes sexy fiery pretty boys, Jon isn't that. Jon doesn't lke snobby entitled prideful women, no one acts more entitled and prideful than Dany. I really don't get how they'd fall for each other.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

None of this is true though. You can't say Dany's didn't make horrid decision after horrid decision. That's exactly what she did. She took hostages who she'd never harm - she should have taken older boys and young men as hostages, not tiny girls. What in the world is the point of taking hostages you can't hurt?

What Dany did was take wards, Westerosi style, ala Theon. Do you really think that Ned would have Theon killed if Balon raised his banners again? Of course he would not. The point is that the children are raised in her care and so will help bring the enemy house to her side in the long run. Also, the enemy lord would risk injuring their own child in a direct assault. Indeed, Theon put a lot of effort into bringing house Greyjoy to the Stark's side before he ultimately turned.

She is "tough" when she shouldn't be - condoning the torture of the wine seller's daughters who might have been completely innocent.

She made laws, she has to stick to them. Guess what - that's what sucks about ruling! No one's going to bring you easy problems. Same thing goes for the Noble boy who's parents were raped and murdered.

She also fined all the noble families for the actions of the sons of the harpy, which if she had any friends among the nobles would drive them away (and surely she had some opportunists who wanted to be her friends, like Shavepate).

You say in one breath she should have killed more captives but then you're angry about the fines? I don't understand. The point is, Dany does not know which of the houses are her enemies. Hitting the Meereenese where it hurts (their pocketbook) is a great idea and has the added bonus of raising funds she can use to buy food, pay sellswords, etc. Besides it's pretty clear by the end that all the Nobles were going to be against her no matter what - they are all pro-Hizdar except the Shavepates.

Her advisors do give her decent advice, although she needs to tone it down.

...

Her advisers give awful advice (Reznek and Shavepate, Barristan rarely), or none at all (Barristan most of the time).

There's also the absolute lunatic decision to "shame" her soldiers to try and care for the plague infected (meanwhile it's worth noting she considers herself magically impervious to disease, so this wasn't even really the brave action it seemed like on the surface).

Morale is important - her people need to see that she cares. At the time she did not know that the Yunkish army was coming, so she helped the refugees however she could so that they would add to her strength once the plague passed. Unfortunately, the end of the chapter has her realizing she can't save the slaves from the Yunkish without greatly risking the spread of plague. So she shuts the gate. It all seemed logical to me from start to finish. Start dealing with problem A, problem B shows up, problem A has to be abandoned.

Finally, she shamed her soldiers into burning the bodies. This almost certainly stopped the spread of the plague into the city. And she wasn't going to be able to do that herself.

So her decisions were repeatedly foolish, topped off by marrying an untrustworthy slaver loser. She could have bought him off at a much cheaper price. I don't believe Hizdahr was the Harpy

Hizdar was totally the Harpy. Which is why becoming engaged to and then marrying him led to insta-peace. I would have liked if there was a better way but I don't think there was.

but Hizdarh brought very, very little to the table in terms of marriage - plus marrying him is basically throwing Westeros away because they'd never accept this clown as king. It's just another stroke of deux ex machina Dany luck that Hizdahr, her biggest mistake, seems doomed thus wiping her slate clean - as usual, at no real cost to her.

I doubt Dany was thinking Hizdar was going to be her only husband. She's planning to have at least two. Perhaps one man could be her king in Westeros and the other in Meereen?

Equally as strong as Sansa's I suppose. Rickon would be similar to Jon, assuming Lyanna married Rhaeghar (which is a safe assumption I believe because there is no other explanation for the three Kingsguard not going after Viserys - guarding the king trumps all duties, so Jon had to be King).... Tywin was the legit ruler of Casterly Rock, people still hated him. Dany's claim doesn't mean that people will root for her.

I never said Dany's claim meant people should root for her. I said her claim and desire for vengeance is legitimate in response to people saying they hate her because she's so entitled and has no good reason to want revenge on poor innocent noble Ned. :rolleyes:

The idea is that Dany's right to Vengeance is as strong as Rickon's or Sansa's, so fans should probably just think about how much they hold these things against Starks before they start spouting off about how entitled and arrogant Dany is for wanting The Iron Throne. I don't think you've made any headway against this.

This is completely ludicrous - how can you compare these things? Everyone tells Jon for instance that Ramsay is a monster. All his actions confirm it. Hell even Ramsay himself confirms it with his letter. Yet people tell Dany that Ned is a good guy and she's heard of not one bad thing he's ever done, other than rebel against Aerys who she now knows was a madman. This is not reader bias, this is willful ignorance.

It is not willful ignorance. Ned is entirely responsible for his part in the deaths and exile of the Targaryens. IMO, Ned would be the first to agree. That's why he feels awful and tries to protect Daenerys later. Even if Ned (or Jaime) feels bad about what he did, Dany still has a right to vengeance. No one but the victim has the right to judge in these cases.

Jon wants revenge on the Lannisters, Ramsey, and the Freys for conspiring to kill Robb before he knows any of the details of how awful these men are. All he knew was that his father and brother were dead and betrayed, so he wanted blood and was ready to give up his vows for it. Likewise, Dany wants revenge on Ned Stark for helping to kill her family and exile her.

Jon and Dany have the same motive: "These men did evil things to my family therefore they must be evil and I will have my revenge." Neither of them has the knowledge the reader has (Ned's a swell guy while Roose and Frey are creeps and Ramsey's a serial killer). Can I be more clear?

[Envie]

The "bride of fire" prophecy seems like it is very probably husband related, so with the blue fire in ice thing I'd assume a Dany+Jon marriage is where the series will end. Though I personally think they make a horrid couple and don't see how the hell they'd love each other - they have nothing in common, and not in an "opposites attract" way either. Dany likes sexy fiery pretty boys, Jon isn't that. Jon doesn't lke snobby entitled prideful women, no one acts more entitled and prideful than Dany. I really don't get how they'd fall for each other.

What's the one thing both Jon Snow and Daenerys have in common? They are both believers in 'saving people' at all costs. To a fault in fact. It's gotten both of them in trouble repeatedly. Jon and his stubborn determination to see every last wildling safe and sound on the south side of the wall, and Dany and her stubborn determination to free every last slave and adopt them as her ever growing horde of 'children'...

Both of them also desire very badly for a sense of family and belonging despite being thrust unwillingly into positions of leadership because the ones they love have died or been killed leaving them no choice but to take charge. Sure, both of them make mistakes, but they're both still 'kids' in many ways, and both manage to make some really good tactical decisions as well.

The similarities between Jon and Dany are pretty remarkable to me, I'm surprised more people haven't made the parallel connections. Now, whether or not this would draw them together in attraction? Hard to say... but I think if both of them are thrust together to fight a common cause (Others) they might hit it off. Nevermind if either of them might play a part in the whole Azor Ahai or Prince who was promised stuff.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The similarities between Jon and Dany are pretty remarkable to me, I'm surprised more people haven't made the parallel connections. Now, whether or not this would draw them together in attraction? Hard to say... but I think if both of them are thrust together to fight a common cause (Others) they might hit it off. Nevermind if either of them might play a part in the whole Azor Ahai or Prince who was promised stuff.

I agree. They have been living parallel lives from day one. They even have fairly similar personalities - quick tempers, stubbornness, overly serious, drive to protect the innocent, etc. One difference I see is that Jon tends to be rather pessimistic, whereas Dany always looks for the advantage in bad situations (e.g. the Dothraki situation, Hatching the eggs).

I'd rather they don't hook up though, TBH.

[Envie]

I agree. They have been living parallel lives from day one. They even have fairly similar personalities - quick tempers, stubbornness, overly serious, drive to protect the innocent, etc. One difference I see is that Jon tends to be rather pessimistic, whereas Dany always looks for the advantage in bad situations (e.g. the Dothraki situation, Hatching the eggs).

I'd rather they don't hook up though, TBH.

I'm not sure how I feel about them possibly getting together. I guess it all depends on how the situation with Jon's 'assassination' plays out at this point. If he is indeed Rhaegar's secret love child, that makes him Daenerys' nephew which is kind of strange, though yes not as creepy as full brother and sister. It also depends on if Jon has any affinity with the dragons. Considering he's a warg and has a bonded dire wolf, he's probably got a better chance than others regardless if he's Targaryen or not.

Which brings us back to discussing the dragons...

Will Rhaegal and Viserion come back to their Mother too or do you think they might go feral at this point, living in the tops of the pyramids and preying on Meereenese and sheep?

[Kadence]

What Dany did was take wards, Westerosi style, ala Theon. Do you really think that Ned would have Theon killed if Balon raised his banners again? Of course he would not. The point is that the children are raised in her care and so will help bring the enemy house to her side in the long run. Also, the enemy lord would risk injuring their own child in a direct assault. Indeed, Theon put a lot of effort into bringing house Greyjoy to the Stark's side before he ultimately turned.

Dany would definitely have an easier time threatening a 16 year old boy than an 8 year old girl. This is a given. No one is going to take these girl hostages seriously. BOthering with them when she could have taken better hostages was a total waste.

She made laws, she has to stick to them. Guess what - that's what sucks about ruling! No one's going to bring you easy problems. Same thing goes for the Noble boy who's parents were raped and murdered.

Huh? What laws require her to torture girls who there is not one shred of evidence against? :huh:

And she treated that noble boy miserably (though I'm not sure how that's related to torturing the girls?). She may not have been able to do recompense but she should have treated him much better and shown sympathy, instead she made an enemy who had every reason to loathe her. BTW you can always adjust laws, that's no big deal especially if you're a dictator - saying you can't change laws retroactively because of ideals, when these ideals cause more suffering rather than less, is silly. Though again, it's not related to anything I was saying.

You say in one breath she should have killed more captives but then you're angry about the fines? I don't understand. The point is, Dany does not know which of the houses are her enemies. Hitting the Meereenese where it hurts (their pocketbook) is a great idea and has the added bonus of raising funds she can use to buy food, pay sellswords, etc. Besides it's pretty clear by the end that all the Nobles were going to be against her no matter what - they are all pro-Hizdar except the Shavepates.

Who said anything about killing more captives...? And yes the fines were a horrid, horrid decision. Absolutely. Not knowing which houses are her enemies is exactly why the fines were a bad idea. You can't punish *everyone* for the sins of a subset and expect these people to remain loyal. If you do this, you will know exactly who your enemies are: everybody. There is no way in hell this was a "great idea". And no, not all nobles would have turned against her. I'm sure Shavepate has friends and/or people he suspected were Dany-friendly, and there will be other wannabe Shavepates as well. There is always someone looking to cash in on changes in the power structure.

Her advisers give awful advice (Reznek and Shavepate, Barristan rarely), or none at all (Barristan most of the time).

Reznak is useless yes, her keeping him around speaks poorly of her. But Shavepate and Barristan are competent, though Shavepate is too ruthless and Barristan is a yes-man, and of course the Green Grace gives the worst advice of anyone. But regardless she always picks the worst advice anyone gives. Her advice filter is straight awful.

Morale is important - her people need to see that she cares.

Come on. This action was indefensible. I cannot take seriously any attempt to defend sending healthy soldiers amidst victims of a highly infectious plague. There's a reason all her advisors were going nuts over this. Morale doesn't mean shit when your army is dying of plague (it is only be extreme luck that the Unsullied are plague-infested because of this). Even the "15 year old girl" thing doesn't hold up. Most 15 year old girls aren't *THIS* stupid.

Hizdar was totally the Harpy. Which is why becoming engaged to and then marrying him led to insta-peace. I would have liked if there was a better way but I don't think there was.

Quite possible that he was the poisoner, though I'm not convinced. The Green Grace was too confident in him not being the poisoner. I think it's the Green Grace, though it may also be Reznak (the "perfumed seneschal" thing might be a swerve where the "too obvious" option is correct - I'm leaning towards Quaithe's warning being for Varys but maybe it is Reznak, in which case he might be the poisoner). Note that poisoner and "Harpy" are not necessarily one and the same.

And of course there was a better way. Again, Hizdahr could have been bought off much cheaper. Marrying him? Seriously? The guy was a loser who brought very, very little to the table politically. Even marrying Xaro made infinitely more sense. The list of superior options to this fool were endless. Daario would have been much more useful as well (as sickening as that would be). It's astonishing how cheaply Dany sold a Kingship for. Not to mention the fact the fulfillment of her price for Kingship by it's very nature meant the guy couldn't be trusted at all. Just a horrific decision politically - she's tying herself to slavers permanently (or would be if she wasn't going to inevitably luck out) for very little gain, and her criteria innately mean that the person cannot be trusted whatsoever and in fact if he *does* fulfill the criteria there's a good chance he's your worst enemy. This was some seriously Aerys-worthy criteria here. Lose-lose.

I doubt Dany was thinking Hizdar was going to be her only husband. She's planning to have at least two. Perhaps one man could be her king in Westeros and the other in Meereen?

We haven't got any indication in a long time she was still thinking of this. The fact that she intended to keep Daario as paramour and not a second husband leads one to believe she has abandoned this notion.

I never said Dany's claim meant people should root for her. I said her claim and desire for vengeance is legitimate in response to people saying they hate her because she's so entitled and has no good reason to want revenge on poor innocent noble Ned. :rolleyes:

I'm not following. What does one thing have to do with the other?

It is not willful ignorance. Ned is entirely responsible for his part in the deaths and exile of the Targaryens. IMO, Ned would be the first to agree. That's why he feels awful and tries to protect Daenerys later. Even if Ned (or Jaime) feels bad about what he did, Dany still has a right to vengeance. No one but the victim has the right to judge in these cases.

Eh? In what cases have victims ever in history had the right to judge? Only when the victim was the ruler or politically favored has this happened, and that's right by force which anyone can have. And Ned doesn't protect Dany because he "feels awful" for undoing her family - he would have protected her whoever the fuck she was, she was a pregnant little girl, this is Ned we're talking about. Her being a Targ is totally irrelevant to him. And Ned never feels badly for rebelling, no guilt whatsoever. Jaime is a different story entirely than Ned, everyone hates Jaime and will tell Dany to kill him. Everyone will tell Dany that Ned was awesome (so far she has ignored these people but eventually she'll get it through her head). I suppose you could vaguely compare Jaime to Ramsay, but to compare Ned and Ramsay and write differences off as "reader bias" is profoundly ludicrous. Not one person in Westeros would compare those two (hell I think even Lady Dustin would respect Ned more).

Jon wants revenge on the Lannisters, Ramsey, and the Freys for conspiring to kill Robb before he knows any of the details of how awful these men are. All he knew was that his father and brother were dead and betrayed, so he wanted blood and was ready to give up his vows for it. Likewise, Dany wants revenge on Ned Stark for helping to kill her family and exile her.

It's not "likewise". If people were telling Jon "You know, this Walder Rivers, he's actually a decent guy" do you seriously think Jon would execute him? You think Jon will blanket hold all Freys including those who were children at the time of Robb's death responsible? Of course not. Not "likewise" at all.

Neither of them has the knowledge the reader has (Ned's a swell guy while Roose and Frey are creeps and Ramsey's a serial killer). Can I be more clear?

Well, on this issue you can't be more wrong, that's for certain :)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I'm not sure how I feel about them possibly getting together. I guess it all depends on how the situation with Jon's 'assassination' plays out at this point. If he is indeed Rhaegar's secret love child, that makes him Daenerys' nephew which is kind of strange, though yes not as creepy as full brother and sister. It also depends on if Jon has any affinity with the dragons. Considering he's a warg and has a bonded dire wolf, he's probably got a better chance than others regardless if he's Targaryen or not.

Mostly I don't think Jon should get a dragon. His animal is the wolf - no one deserves two awesome spirit animals! :D And I somehow find Jon x Dany very cliche... It would defy convention more if they did not get together, IMO.

Which brings us back to discussing the dragons...

Will Rhaegal and Viserion come back to their Mother too or do you think they might go feral at this point, living in the tops of the pyramids and preying on Meereenese and sheep?

I think they will remain feral until one of two things happen:

1) They are tamed by whoever are going to be their riders

2) They are controlled by Victarion's dragon horn

I kind of hope 2 does not happen. I mean they've been building it up so it seems kind of likely. And if Rhaegal and Viserion's riders are really in Westeros, that's the only way I see them making it over there.

OTOH, 1 would require that the dragonriders are already in Meereen, and I'm just not sure who they would be (I was soooo hoping it would be Quentyn... but no). I guess the top candidates in Meereen are Barristan, Tyrion, Jorah, Daario :stillsick:, Victarion, Brown Ben... Yeah I don't know.

I don't think that Dany has a good way to control the other dragons personally because she can't ride any dragon but Drogon if what she was saying about Aegon and his sisters was true. And she only mastered Drogon after riding him for a long time.

I suppose it is possible that Rhaegal and Viseryon will fly after their "big brother" if he shows up, but they don't really seem to be pack animals in that way.

[Kadence]

I'm not sure how I feel about them possibly getting together. I guess it all depends on how the situation with Jon's 'assassination' plays out at this point. If he is indeed Rhaegar's secret love child, that makes him Daenerys' nephew which is kind of strange, though yes not as creepy as full brother and sister. It also depends on if Jon has any affinity with the dragons. Considering he's a warg and has a bonded dire wolf, he's probably got a better chance than others regardless if he's Targaryen or not.

Which brings us back to discussing the dragons...

Will Rhaegal and Viserion come back to their Mother too or do you think they might go feral at this point, living in the tops of the pyramids and preying on Meereenese and sheep?

Good point about Jon's dragonriding - that might well win him to her, along with being Rhaeghar's kid. On top of probably having a better claim than Dany - Dany probably wouldn't try to usurp him even if she had the military advantage, she's too honorable I think, so marrying Jon would be her only avenue to the throne. But I still don't see how personality wise they'd be attracted to one another. While there may be meta-level parallels, those are very vague and not the type of thing relationships are based off of. These two don't seem each other's type at all in practical terms. They seem like, well, ice and fire honestly. But again not in an "opposites attract"/"oh that whacky couple" way.

The nephew thing is weird but by Ice and Fire standards extremely mild. This series has some serious freakin' incest going on. If anything it makes the relationship more likely, Targs will be Targs :P These two have also never met - Jon and Arya are less closely related but that would be far more warped because they grew up together.

For the dragons, I suspect Euron's horn will control them. I believe they may have dragon riders but not ones who are the propechized "heads" of the dragon - those will come later I believe (of which Jon I certainly expect will be one). I think they're going to mess up a lot of Meereen before that though.

[Kadence]

Mostly I don't think Jon should get a dragon. His animal is the wolf - no one deserves two awesome spirit animals! :D And I somehow find Jon x Dany very cliche... It would defy convention more if they did not get together, IMO.

Actually by this point Martin seems to have his own conventions that readers expect (almost all pessimistic), so in a way Jon+Dany ruling Westeros together would go against his own conventions big-time. Also it's the journey that matters, and the journey will have much pain along the way I'm sure.

I think in terms of emotional bonds, his bond will Ghost won't be matched by some dragon he just met. The dragon is just a fling, she means nothing, honest :) Though I did have a theory that Dany's "mount to love" was Ghost, where Ghost would carry her to Jon or something. With the mount having the literal mount meaning of animal to ride, as well as the sexual meaning with her last husband (I believe mount to bed and mount to dread may also have dual animal/husband meanings).

And she only mastered Drogon after riding him for a long time.

She hasn't mastered him at all, and the little control she achieved she got almost instantly. She didn't make all that much progress after that other than figuring out how to make him change direction...sort of.

I suppose it is possible that Rhaegal and Viseryon will fly after their "big brother" if he shows up, but they don't really seem to be pack animals in that way.

Hadn't thought of this, it's a good point, but yeah I don't think that's the way we're headed. I think the horn, and stuff about Valyria controlling dragons with sorcery, as well as the entire presence of the Euron/Victarion arc means that the horn will come into play. There has to be a payoff for the Euron/Victarion arc. Dragon control seems like the best bet.

[Envie]

Good point about Jon's dragonriding - that might well win him to her, along with being Rhaeghar's kid. On top of probably having a better claim than Dany - Dany probably wouldn't try to usurp him even if she had the military advantage, she's too honorable I think, so marrying Jon would be her only avenue to the throne. But I still don't see how personality wise they'd be attracted to one another. While there may be meta-level parallels, those are very vague and not the type of thing relationships are based off of. These two don't seem each other's type at all in practical terms. They seem like, well, ice and fire honestly. But again not in an "opposites attract"/"oh that whacky couple" way.

Don't forget about Aegon / little Griff... he's got a better claim to the throne than Daenerys or Jon Snow either one and he's already staging in Westeros for his reintroduction to society. ;) If anything, they'd have to convince him they aren't going to usurp and possibly all three will be the heads of the dragons.

For the dragons, I suspect Euron's horn will control them. I believe they may have dragon riders but not ones who are the propechized "heads" of the dragon - those will come later I believe (of which Jon I certainly expect will be one). I think they're going to mess up a lot of Meereen before that though.

I am also one who doesn't really want to see Victarion controlling dragons with his horn. He just reminds me of a cruel version of Stannis... bleh. I just do not see how this mess with the dragons is going to get sorted out in the next book. I guess that means Martin has me fully confused and anticipating exciting new twists to the dragon's "tale" ;)

[Kadence]

Don't forget about Aegon / little Griff... he's got a better claim to the throne than Daenerys or Jon Snow either one and he's already staging in Westeros for his reintroduction to society. ;) If anything, they'd have to convince him they aren't going to usurp and possibly all three will be the heads of the dragons.

I think the evidence for Illyrio and Serra being YG's parents makes it almost a lock, and I'm pretty damn confident that Serra was a Blackfyre descedant. And if you add in Varys as Serra's brother or close relative (which I'm less confident of, but I think it's more likely than not) then almost every single thing about the Illyrio-Varys plotting makes perfect sense. Varys has a shaved head (just like Egg - I suspect Egg's shaved head is a hint about Varys, very Martin-like), doesn't seem to like Targs and wasn't keen on Aerys yet on the surface is now helping them, has close ties with Illyrio, seems to have a strange attachment to and investment in YG and so on.

And a profit hungry Essos merchant in Illyrio giving up the son of his beloved wife to risk his life in the dangerous Westerosi game of thrones, when he can't raise that son and the son can't know his father, makes no damn sense whatsoever...unless Serra was a Blackfyre in which case it makes perfect sense: he wants to give his beloved late wife the throne she thought was her birthright. The throne her family has fought for for the past century. And of course we have this major emphasis by Martin on the Blackfyres - it's almost a given they will come into play in the story in a huge way at some point, and YG is really the only option for this. And I think it's becoming too late in the game for a new Blackfyre option to pop in out of nowhere. The Illyrio-Varys plot have been there since the start, and the mummer's dragon stuff since Clash, so YG's intro has been set up for a while. Some other new Blackfyre not related to the Illyrio-Varys plot would be pretty random, and Martin doesn't really do random when it comes to major stuff. The man loves his intricate foreshadowing.

Also you have "some contracts are writ in ink, others in blood". Why would the Golden Company back the Targs? That certainly doesn't match Illyrio's quote. But if Blackheart knew he was backing the Blackfyre female line it all adds up in an extremely, extremely neat bundle.

As for YG taking precedence over Dany and Jon, I don't think we need to worry about that (if you think that's a bad thing). Dany has that "slayer of lies" thing going for her and the "mummer's dragon" is one of the things associated with slayer of lies. I suspect this whole Tattered Prince/Pentos storyline might end up with Dany conquering Pentos and getting the truth from Illyrio. Or something like that. I think Dany or her people will find out evidence of YG's true parentage somehow. (though I'm actually hoping I'm wrong with the Pentos thing - if Dany needs to go to Vaes Dothrak and Pentos, she might not end up in Westeros for two more books, ugh).

Note that this doesn't necessarily rule out YG as a head of the dragon - he'd still have Blackfyre blood. And "slayer of lies" doesn't necessarily mean she slays the individual, just the lie. I sure hope it doesn't mean literal slayer because Dany killing Stannis and YG would stink. I myself don't believe that YG is a head of the dragon, but there would definitely be some beautiful symmetry to two Targaryens and a Blackfyre heir, all direct descedants of Aegon, being the three heads to fulfill the ancient prophecy. Again I don't think that will happen but it's quite possible, and while YG isn't going to sit the throne at the end of the series I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was King of Westeros temporarily (the South anyway - Stannis/Jon/Manderly will probably control the North) before Dany comes. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is doomed and if Littlefinger acts like Littlefinger does, he'll back YG (I suspect by marrying Sansa to him) at which point the odds are heavily stacked in YG's favor. And with the way things have been set up with Varys' plotting and the mummer's dragon dancing to cheering crowds, as well as the current political climate which is heavily in his favor, Young Griff seems destined for some serious glory before the inevitable fall.

I am also one who doesn't really want to see Victarion controlling dragons with his horn. He just reminds me of a cruel version of Stannis... bleh. I just do not see how this mess with the dragons is going to get sorted out in the next book. I guess that means Martin has me fully confused and anticipating exciting new twists to the dragon's "tale" ;)

Victarion seems vastly dumber than Stannis. I think Moqorro is just using Vicatrion though and I think if Victarion uses the horn, Euron will reap the rewards. Moqorro's "glory" comment was pretty suspicious. I think the dragons stuff will get sorted out in a transport to Westeros way in the next book - but not in a dragon-rider way for a while. I think it will be at least a book and a half before we get our next dragonrider. Maybe more than two books (I can't see the series being finished in only two more books). I don't think Jon would become a dragonrider until the very last book. If Bran is a dragonrider (or dragon-warger) that ain't happening for a while either. If Tyrion or Arya or YG (or even Jaime, if the semi-crackpot theories about Aerys/Joanna have anything to them) is a dragon rider then that could happen significantly sooner than Jon and Bran.

[Scotty J]

I just finished the book, belatedly, and I'm SO MAD AT DAENERYS!

Here's the post I made in the 'parts that made you sad' thread, to explain:

"It made me cry the way Daenerys had locked up her beloved dragons and was neglecting them because she couldn't or wouldn't face their growing aggression towards man (maneaters no less). While two of them are wasting away in a dungeon, and the other has gone feral - she's busy making stupid choices and playing out stupid dramas. I just found the whole slaver city (Harpy crap) politics tedious. The direction Dany went in this book was such a letdown for me, even though I know its part of her growth and learning and that she must 'go backwards to go forwards' and all that. I hated every excruciating minute of it!

I kept yelling at my book "You dumb woman, go down there and take care of your REAL CHILDREN and forget about these ridiculous slaves who don't even appreciate you freeing them!!!!"

Major bummer. :thumbsdown:

I completely agree. I felt the same way while reading through this book, and boy, were Daenerys' chapters really a drag for me.. she regressed so much in this book. I love the dragons, but I have a really strong feeling that one of them is going to end up being controlled by Victarion, and it seems likely that at least one of them will die as well... no foreshadowing, just simple plot deduction.