[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[The Human Abstract]

Loved the book. All this complaining makes me sad and makes me feel disconnected from other readers b/c I simply can't identify with hating on this series.

You are not alone. I'm with with you.

I think this book and AFFC will go down as a sort of "Empire Strikes Back". We have a couplem of jedis in training too. As well as a couple of leaders in training. Unfortunately the lessons come hard.

[Ser Pistus]

I think this book and AFFC will go down as a sort of "Empire Strikes Back".

"Unlikely" is a massive understatement :D

[zippypoodle]

Not a bitch to read at all. I thoroughly enjoyed every page, though of course I like some POV characters more than others.

[The King's Foot]

What happened to the joy being in the journey? No-one here hates the series, but if you can see that the balance of this book means that things will have to race along in the next two books then congratulations, you do understand the other readers. Some resolution before the end of the series is, probably, necessary. A bit more of it here would have left more space to make the action to come richer. As it is, it feels like we've just had the second part of a book that had to be split into 3, and as this thread identifies there are people who find the difficulties in writing are reflected in the reading.

Right. Dance is Book 5, not book 6 or 7. Things CAN'T move at a rocket pace in book 5 or there wouldn't be a need for book 7 or maybe even 6. I'm arguing that expectations are misaligned with what we were really being delivered here. His original plan was to just tell the story up to the same chronological point where Feast ended. How much more upset would people have been then? I was expecting a long-awaited re-immersion in George's world and got that and loved it.

[redxavier]

Frankly, I believe we're seeing a reflection of today's instant-gratification culture in these comments.

*sigh* What a condescending way of dismissing valid criticism. How does "I want the plot to progress" become "I want everything wrapped up in this book"?

And there are other strawman arguments being displayed here and on other threads as well. "I found it hard to read" goes through the brain and comes out as "I hated it".

[zippypoodle]

*sigh* What a condescending way of dismissing valid criticism. How does "I want the plot to progress" become "I want everything wrapped up in this book"?

And there are other strawman arguments being displayed here and on other threads as well. "I found it hard to read" goes through the brain and comes out as "I hated it".

Actually, I was thinking the same thing as King (that our instant gratification culture is the problem) but wasn't going to post it because it comes across as the way you took it, condescending.

But I don't think it IS condescending or dismissive to discuss whether our culture affects our ability to enjoy writing. Just try to get teenagers today to get into 19th century literature, which is often heavy on description and takes a long time for any action to occur. Generally today, if authors can't hook a reader within the first five pages the reader will give up.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

And readers got to the 5th book in Martin's series by "giving up"? What logic is this?

[banditry]

I think this book and AFFC will go down as a sort of "Empire Strikes Back". We have a couplem of jedis in training too. As well as a couple of leaders in training. Unfortunately the lessons come hard.

Completely agree.

[A Song Of Vice And Ire]

If something was needed to flesh out some events in the 5-year gap, why did that lead to two books with unnecessary fleshing? Admittedly with hindsight, he had plenty of time to actually work out what was going to happen in this gap.

As to why complain? Well, I'm not saying he needed to steal plot from future books, I'm complaining that he didn't come up with even more plot! AFFC was sometimes hard work because we wanted to know what was going on with our favourite characters - Jon, Tyrion, Dany. As it turns out, not a lot was going on with them, and AFFC is now actually a lot more interesting because you have good character development. Which character in ADWD actually develops? And why say at the start that this book extends beyond the timescale of AFFC when it's only an excuse to add a couple of additional chapters from POVs that would otherwise be absent? That comment alone set me up for thinking something was going to happen by the end of the book that we didn't know about in AFFC. Well, Cersei walked back to the red keep (great writing, but not a massive advancement of the story). Brienne found Jamie (still waiting). And Balon Swann finally arrived in sunspear without anything happening. The epilogue was the only meaningful step.

It could just all have been sooo much better.

[Ser Pistus]

I think this book and AFFC will go down as a sort of "Empire Strikes Back". We have a couplem of jedis in training too. As well as a couple of leaders in training. Unfortunately the lessons come hard.

Completely agree.

In the whole world, Empire Strikes Back is probably the worst metaphor for Feast and Dance. Empire was a wonderfully complete story. Nobody ever defended Empire by saying "it is slow, boring, it lacks action, but guys, this is just a setup movie". No. The audience, fans and non-fans alike, loved Empire.

If you want a good Star Wars metaphor, I offer you The Phantom Menace.

[The King's Foot]

It could just all have been sooo much better.

This is the main thing that really irks me. If you think it could be better, write your own epic series and see how skippidy-doo-dah easy it is for you!

[zippypoodle]

And readers got to the 5th book in Martin's series by "giving up"? What logic is this?

No, but if the pace of this book has slowed down from the first three, then people might be getting mad because they want more action and didn't get as much as they wanted.

[banditry]

Loved the book. All this complaining makes me sad and makes me feel disconnected from other readers b/c I simply can't identify with hating on this series.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. How others view the book certainly doesn't lessen my enjoyment and admiration of it one iota. And as you can see, there are plenty of others who absolutely loved it - - and the reviews in national publications have been overwhelmingly, glowingly positive.

When folks have spent 6 (or 11) years reading and re-reading and arguing over minutia and quibbling over this and that and making predictions and assumptions about what the next book is going to be... it's going to be impossible to please everyone. Pointless for GRRM to try. He wrote and released the book he intended to release. And the reality is this: humans love to bitch. We do it very well ;)

Not that I don't have some things I wish were different. But that's true with all the books. ADWD contains some of his best writing and, for a book that so many proclaim not to like, there surely has been no shortage of discussion, speculation, debate over its contents, what it means, what it might mean, and what it will mean in the future. I'd have loved another 100 pages at the end to give it more a sense of conclusion (as a single volume) rather than the cliffhangers. But GRRM said, in order for that to happen, it would have taken another year. Would folks have preferred to wait a year and have that extra bit at the end? Or, have ADWD now, and hopefully in 2 to 3 years the next volume?

I'm enjoying it; it's incredibly vivid and fascinating throughout. Yeah, the ending left me wanting more. But isn't that a good thing? Because, ultimately, we WILL get more.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

This is the main thing that really irks me. If you think it could be better, write your own epic series and see how skippidy-doo-dah easy it is for you!

Yeah, we should just tell the New York Times to write their own books or make their own movies the next time they criticize anything, right?

No, but if the pace of this book has slowed down from the first three, then people might be getting mad because they want more action and didn't get as much as they wanted.

There was hardly any action in AGOT. Give some credit to people who read 4 books before this one to realize that something is amiss.

[Raventhal]

Right. Dance is Book 5, not book 6 or 7. Things CAN'T move at a rocket pace in book 5 or there wouldn't be a need for book 7 or maybe even 6. I'm arguing that expectations are misaligned with what we were really being delivered here. His original plan was to just tell the story up to the same chronological point where Feast ended. How much more upset would people have been then? I was expecting a long-awaited re-immersion in George's world and got that and loved it.

Uh, that's all utter bs. There is no magic book 5 must be slow. The pace doesn't have to be what it was. The choices is his or at least where his writing is. There were a lot of things that could have been told off screen. Meereen for me was a painful read. I wasn't immersed, interested or entertained for most of it and the plot was as loose the brown water Dany shitted except the book had more filler. Not to mention the jarring differences in the minor and side point of views that were the plot was tight and too the point.

How many days of Dany doing the same thing needed to be told? Essos is being aggressive, harpy's son, Oh Daario Bro save me, let me open the pits and a bunch of guys with X's and Z's in their names.

You may have enjoyed the book thoroughly. That's your opinion. There are others who don't share it. I did enjoy the book in a way as it's a continuation of the story I love but if it had been the first book I may have never read anymore if I could have finished.

[The Non-Human]

The book was excellent. A bitch to read? What the hell are you talking about?

[The King's Foot]

Uh, that's all utter bs. There is no magic book 5 must be slow.

You're missing my point. For this series, for this author, this book was going to be less plot-advancement intensive and more setup-intensive. I wasn't making a global statement.

I keep coming back to the main issue which I think is Expectations. If you went into the book expecting or even requiring, certain events be resolved or moved ahead significantly, you were setting yourself up for disappointment and that's your fault, not the author's.

[Ser Pistus]

The book was excellent. A bitch to read? What the hell are you talking about?

Should we repeat the whole topic here and now? :D

[Raksha the Demon]

This is the main thing that really irks me. If you think it could be better, write your own epic series and see how skippidy-doo-dah easy it is for you!

I would think that 99% of the posters on this board would not be able to outdo GRRM in the writing of ADWD, or anything else. But we still have the right to criticize what he has written, as much as we have the right to praise it. I found ADWD to be intricate, complex, with an excellent Theon arc; but it is a top-heavy book that has too much padding and not enough plot or action, at least in my opinion. Hopefully, now that the five-year gap has been at least somewhat incorporated into the ASoIaF narrative, GRRM will deliver some intense storytelling in the next two or three books.

[The Human Abstract]

In the whole world, Empire Strikes Back is probably the worst metaphor for Feast and Dance. Empire was a wonderfully complete story. Nobody ever defended Empire by saying "it is slow, boring, it lacks action, but guys, this is just a setup movie". No. The audience, fans and non-fans alike, loved Empire.

Empire was great (like this book) but not a wonderfully complete story. It was about half a story. It ended with a giant unresolved piece of the plot, and with everyone's favorite character's demise.

"Lacks action" I would never claim, although Empire did have less action and more training than the other Stars Wars movies.

If you want a good Star Wars metaphor, I offer you The Phantom Menace.

haha!