[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[Røyksopp]

Nah, the series is still far away from turning towards what happened with the WoT. AFfC may have been lacking in plot-movement and standout moments, but it had a thematic unity and wonderful characterisation.

I liked ADwD a lot and it had quite a few awesome moments, quiet or otherwise. If it had had a real climax and falling action though, then it would have easily been on par with the first three books. Seemed to me the book had significant editing problems, substantively and copy-wise. Daenery's chapters do wonders for her characterisation, but they do kinda meander and are somewhat stationary. Jon's chapters were just marked with staticity as well, but again as with Dany's chapters, they did good on character-building. I think the chapters definitely could have done with more substantial editing though. Tyrion's probably, also.

The copy-editing was really bad in this book I thought, and definitely one of the book's flaws. How many times do I need 'Word are wind' drilled into my head. Some descriptions are used, like, three times (ice dragon). There were a few times where the writing was just clumsey like one paragraph where it went something like, 'something something AND something AND something something something AND...' Really, just different things that make the writing very unsubtle. Dany's constant referencing to the Dothraki Sea as a 'sea' four or so times, we get it. The referencing of Patrek's arms being a star, several times in succession. The kennings were clever, but Reek spouted his too often. Things like Barristan mentioning Duskendale 100 times, though that could be him trying to convince himself of his worth, dunno here. There are various other instances. I always thought Martin was a subtle writer, still do, but these instances just kinda dishearten.

[L’Age d’or]

I enjoyed the book, but I wasnt riveted by it. The problem was that no plotline had a satisfying conclusion except for maybe Quentyn, and that lead into Danys unfinished plotline anyway. We are basically in the dark about everything. I couldnt believe it when I got to the end of the book and we were still in the dark about what had happened at Winterfell. And how the battle of Meereen hadn't happened yet. There was all this big build up in various places and then... bam nothing.

I will get alot of criticism from this statement, but ASoIaF is turning into Wheel of Time. The first three/four books of WoT were amazing, but once the characters and plots and the locations expanded out, it grew cluttered with detail, far too much detail. Tyrions chapters in this book were basically exactly the same as Mats in A Crown of Swords - a much loved character being over used and not helping in moving the plot further, but being written for the sake of being written. And I still love reading WoT, but the series isnt anywhere as good as the first few books, and I imagine that the same is happening here. Storm of Swords was the pinnacle, and everything since then will still be enjoyable, will still be a good read, but will pale in comparison.

I agree. Its only fitting though considering the amount of contempt and despise the majority of users here have for WOT :laugh:

[A Song Of Vice And Ire]

It's a perplexing one, the number of ideas that are flogged to death while others are so subtle that we don't notice them til we read about it here! Maybe it's intentional, showing the one-dimensional and frankly boring mind of the character. But many of the repetitions are not inside the character's head, and they cross continents, which suggests it's just the writing, or rather editing. In my copy at least, young Griff is referred to as the prince before Tyrion reveals him as such. It was certainly confusing, and lessened the impact of what should have been one of the most significant moments in the book.

[Rex]

It was certainly confusing, and lessened the impact of what should have been one of the most significant moments in the book.

Yeah, and when he is finally revealed all Tyrion cares about are turtles.

[Jo498]

Due to work I could not read the book very quickly, so it took me a little more than a week. I did not dislike the book and I think it is better than AFFC, but considerably weeker than the first three ones and although I only waited less than half a year having read the first 4 in Jan/Feb 2011 I was somewhat dissappointed, because I did have higher expectations. I didn't feel like skipping anything, but most of it was not terribly exciting and slow going.

What I actually liked was that quite a few of the fan's expectations were thwarted, e.g. Tyrion meeting Dany. Whatever the "Meereen knot" exactly might have been, I think these plotlines were handled quite well, smartly avoiding suitors from all over Westeros crowding in Meereen. Instead unexpected turns like the (fake? not completely sure) Aegon turning west early, Tyrion getting captured by Jorah etc., the complete failure of the Dornish expedition, Dany riding of on Drogon and Ser Barristan taking over reluctantly. Only the Victarion plot is still quite dangling, although I liked the intersection with the R'hllor priest. And wasn't there some guy from Oldtown on his way east as well?

BUT: here, as more or less in the whole book, there was a lot of bloating, purposeless background and filling pages without moving the plot along. For whatever reason, GRRM does not write like one who has to begin to tie up loose ends, but like one paid by the line with insufficient ideas. (Which was not at all the case in the first three books.)

Tyrions travels are drawn out way too long and he doesn't really develop at all as a character, it's simply superfluous and maeandering. As someone already mentioned, he basically goes from his drunken stupor back to his original self. (and Penny, please, was that really necessary?) Similarly Dany: in which ways is she smarter now than in Yunkai and Astapor? (Her oscillating between being "sensible" by sending Daario first away and afterwards becoming his bed-slave is quite irrelevant. Hardly anything follows plotwise from this particular conflict.)

All this could (and should) have been shortened considerably. Endless lists of names, descriptions of food, grotesque side-characters (or just passers-by) etc. This made some sense in the first books when we were not familiar with the world. But now we are and don't need to be told for the umpteenth time the same or similar stuff.

Unlike many others I was somewhat dissapointed by the nothern plot. Again, I found even the Reek chapters too longish, although I agree that they probably contain the best writing, really nightmarish and sometimes painful to read. Especially because his recovery takes really long, I halfway expected him to shove a dagger through Ramsay on his wedding night.

The Wall action is too slow going, the end a complete mystery to me so far. It is quite implausible for me that Stannis who acted rather smart by enlisting the northern tribes and capturing Deepwood Motte would set out in such a stupid fashion for Winterfell with insufficient forces and in bad weather. (The "letter" is again a mystery, of course). What I especially dislike is that as in the case of Bran's and Rickon's "death" and Brienne's fool's errand, the reader knows from the beginning about the fake Arya.

The Jaime chapter is weak, apart from the end which resolves one cliffhanger to bring on another.

Surprisingly I liked the first Cersei chapter which also gave some necessary update on the Westeros situation. I could have done without the second one.

Glad that Bran finally reached the 3EC and the CotF, but still dissapointed that we do not get more info on them or an idea in which way this will be relevant later on. I would have expected some more info here. But I always liked Bran and I like the melancholy quality of his quest, maybe the closest thing to "High Fantasy" in the series so far)

Even in a series, one can't have a 1000 pages book of mere scene-setting for the next one. The first books were teeming with action and still did enough scene setting for the following ones. There is still too many loose ends for my taste and that GRRM needs many years and almost a thousand pages to keep them quite loose (or even introduce a few more) doesn't get my hopes up for the remaining books. OTHOH the entangling of the plot lines of all the people going for Dany was done well, even if the Meereen plot has not advanced as far as one would wish.

[Ser Taldan]

You can certainly tell from any number of facts that GRRM has had great difficulty writing the last two books (not the least of which being his own statement in ADWD to that effect). From my perspective, he's really gotten bogged down in some minor side stories rather than focusing on the main stories - or he's expanding the stories such that what was the main story in the first three is simply being lost.

That having been said, there is a great story in AFFC and ADWD - it's just buried in there somewhere. Remember, it was meant to be one book. I recently got to thinking 'what would have to be cut to make it one book' and also, just how good would that one book be? What I realized is that you could cut the two books down to one, that would be one par with the other books both in terms of quality of the story / plot progression, and might be even better in terms of quality of writing. In reality, you don't even lose much plot in doing so, the only real problem I can see is the Ironborn plot, but otherwise everything that is central remains central. Something like that might be an interesting topic for discussion.

[Aegonmyface]

The Young Griff prince thing was not an error, it was a style of writing.

Tyrion found out who Young Griff is when he beat the maester at chess. Rather than telling us what Tyrion learned right away, the author opted to hint at it- the prince line- later in that chapter and flat out tell us during the next Tyrion chapter.

We were sort of given a POV outside of a POV in that we weren't told it the moment Tyrion was told it.

[rhaze]

So, is it really true GRRM said all the people giving negative reviews are "sock puppets". Wow the world must be like 80% sock puppets then. Even Westeros.org is full of "sock puppets".

[Ran]

80% would be a rather inaccurate statistic.

In any case, no, he didn't say that. He said it's well known that Amazon.com's reviews, generally, have had a deal of trouble with sock puppets of all kinds. The forum's actually rather intimately aware of it, thanks to the sock puppet Who Will Not Be Named who went around trying to promote his own books through misleading reviews, both of other authors and his own works.

Goodreads has 2,819 ratings at the moment. That's probably more generally representative of the broader readership, I suspect, than Amazon (or, indeed, this forum, or any other SF/F forum).

[Rex]

The Young Griff prince thing was not an error, it was a style of writing.

Tyrion found out who Young Griff is when he beat the maester at chess. Rather than telling us what Tyrion learned right away, the author opted to hint at it- the prince line- later in that chapter and flat out tell us during the next Tyrion chapter.

We were sort of given a POV outside of a POV in that we weren't told it the moment Tyrion was told it.

And yet why would the Halfmaester give away such a big secret in a wager? Especially to a man no one trusts? It makes no sense.

[Rex]

Sorry for the double post, but you can't actually review the book unless you've bought something on that amazon account. I doubt people purposefully would buy something of 5$ minimum just to troll the reviews.

[L’Age d’or]

Sorry for the double post, but you can't actually review the book unless you've bought something on that amazon account. I doubt people purposefully would buy something of 5$ minimum just to troll the reviews.

I'm not feeling the Goodreads ratings either, some of them belong to before ADWD was released (2008, 2009 or the like). Some of the post-release ratings are contradictory to the review accompanying them. There are numerous examples in which the reviewer is very critical of the book and not satisfied with it while rating it 5/5.

[Ran]

Google around, you'll find a number of cases of publishers, authors, and readers pointing out trolled reviews and sock puppetry. The forum's had first-hand experience with it... though thankfully, He Who Will Not Be Named is so ingrained in my mind that I can't say I recall his actual name any longer. Heh.

TBH,

The dates I think relate to when people first logged their plan to read the book, and then must have updated with ratings/reviews after the book was published. As to 5-stars-with-criticism, if that's how they feel, well, that's how they feel.

[Caligula_K]

Was it? I was merely waiting to find out what happened to Tyrion next in the story. In fact, without the spoiler chapters GRRM released years ago, it's even stevens on what Tyrion was going to do next (in retrospect that was a mistake; if GRRM had kept quiet about it then Tyrion going to Dorne instead would have probably been a much stronger theory given the events of AFFC).

I did go into this book expecting Tyrion to meet Dany (as for him being a dragon rider/her hand, not so much. I was interested to see how it would play out and what direction Martin would take him in). More than that, I expected Tyrion to have a character and story arc. If in his first chapter you set up Tyrion's search for Dany to be his plotline in ADWD, then he should either meet up with her or have his goal changed to create a new story arc. I was irritated that in Feast travelogues became the whole of a character's story arc rather than part of it, as they had been in the first three books of the series (with the exception of Bran's arc in ASoS), but at least Sam got to Oldtown and Brienne reached a point where finding Sansa Stark was no longer her goal. Here, Tyrion's storyline just... ends. At a random point.

And this is a major problem. The entire reason AFFC was cut by location was so that George could tell the whole story for half the characters in each book. But he hasn't, and so his entire justification for the frustrating split seems silly. Tyrion is the most obvious culprit, but we're still waiting for the climax to Jaime's, Cersei's, Dany's, Asha's, Victarion's arcs. Sure, Tyrion has some good chapters, some excellent character moments, and some fun interaction with Illyrio, Jorah and the Griffs, but without a story arc, his role in the story is bound to be disappointing, especially when it is so padded- the six to seven chapters planned would have been just fine for the amount of story and character development Tyrion gets.

So in the end, I think the "you just had expectations that Tyrion's story arc would be X, but it was Y instead, so you hated the book!" argument doesn't fly. Few expected the Red Wedding and most wanted Robb to survive, but most fans loved and were blown away by the twist and by Martin taking the story in an unexpected direction. The problem is more that we expected Tyrion's story arc to be X, but it was nothing instead. The comparison to Mat's arc in the later WoT books is pretty apt.

[L’Age d’or]

Google around, you'll find a number of cases of publishers, authors, and readers pointing out trolled reviews and sock puppetry. The forum's had first-hand experience with it... though thankfully, He Who Will Not Be Named is so ingrained in my mind that I can't say I recall his actual name any longer. Heh.

Did not we have also She Who Will Not Be Named actress pressing for a role in GOT as well? I hate when this kinda shit happens...

[banditry]

I'm sure it's been noted, but GRRM addresses some of these complaints himself in his NotABlog:

As for "too much description," well, opinions differ. We write the books we want to read. And I want to read books that are richly textured and full of sensory detail, books that make me feel as if I am experiencing a story, not just reading it. Plot is only one aspect of telling a tale, and not the most important one. It is the journey that matters, not how fast you arrrive at the destination.

That's my view, anyway. Others writers differ, of course. There are hundreds of books where everything is subordinate to advancing the plot, some of them quite fine, but my work has never been about that, and never will be.

:thumbsup: Folks are free to like what they like, of course. And if you think ADWD was a "bitch" to read.... then I guess the series isn't for you. I read it feverishly quick, staying up far too late, eager to know what happens. If that's a "bitch" then I guess I need more bitches.

It's even better on the re-read, now that i'm taking time to really delve into it rather that just madly trying to finish so I find out what happens. Yeah, I was frustrated by the cliffhangers, but that was a fleeting frustration.

It's a beautiful book. And while I'd probably rank it 4th best out of the series - at least, as of now.. that may change - that's more a reflection of the overall incredible quality of the first 3 books than any glaring deficiencies with ADWD (or AFFC for that matter).

More from GRRM (a guy that I suspect most agree knows a thing or two about writing):

Story is not a synonym for action. Two characters talking to each other is story. Gatsby standing silent and gazing across the water at the green light at the end of Daisy's dock is story.

Plot advancement is part of story, certainly. But so is character development. So is world building.

yes, indeed.

[TheDanish]

AFFC and ADWD are definitely less self-contained than the first three, but I see it more as a symptom of Martin's decision to weave the latter half of the story together in preparation for the finale. As a result, starting with book 4, the first of "grand" events are being set into motion that will culminate in the story's end.

I'd say ADWD is better than AFFC but not quite as good as the first three, when they are all compared as stand-alone novels. Still an integral part of the story as a whole, though.

[Finn]

So in the end, I think the "you just had expectations that Tyrion's story arc would be X, but it was Y instead, so you hated the book!" argument doesn't fly. Few expected the Red Wedding and most wanted Robb to survive, but most fans loved and were blown away by the twist and by Martin taking the story in an unexpected direction. The problem is more that we expected Tyrion's story arc to be X, but it was nothing instead.

At the beginning of the book, Tyrion is in exile from his home, completely at odds with his family and heritage, and borderline suicidal. He lets himself be moved around like a chess piece by others (Varys, Connington, Jorah) while biding his time and observing - in his usual smart and witty way - the people and places around him.

(As as aside - without trying very hard or committing himself to anything, he seems to have accelerated a planned invasion of Westeros and changed the destinies of Dany and Young Griff - whatever they might be - irrevocably.)

By the end of the novel, Tyrion has escaped slavery, become a member of a sell-sword company, committed himself to a particular side in an imminent war, generally returned to his former funny, pain-in-the-ass self, and taken control of his situation as best as he can. By the end, there are strong indications that his future may hold an overt attempt to take Casterly Rock for himself. This last bit was something I hadn't anticipated at all, and is the kind of thing that would upset expectations in a significant way. I wanted more from his final chapter, but this is an interesting and well-written character arc that also intersects with big plot points in the series, takes us to exotic places, and puts us in a series of interesting situations (in my opinion).

(I didn't love the introduction of Penny, but I'm sure Martin will develop her character and her relationship with Tyrion to a point that it will be painful for me when he (inevitably) kills her off.)

[Rockroi]

Was the book painful for me to read?

For me, no. Yes, at times when the action would shift from an absolutely enrapturing chapter from Reek and then shift to … another soul-sucking chapter of Tyrion… I would let out a frustrated groan (more like, “Gee, I wonder what Tyrion will NOT do this chapter.”). Regardless, the book was very well-written and had a solid pace to it. Yes, it definitely hit a “Heartbreak Hill” point where the pace slowed and the timing fell clean off the book, but overall, the book flowed really well.

However,…

To me, the telling question/answer is how you felt when you finished the last page. Were you relieved that it was over, or were you wishing there was more? Personally, I wished there was more to read. I suppose you could take that as a complaint that not enough happened, but anytime you're left wanting more, it's a good purchase.

This. This This This This. THIS!

I think the test that ADwD fails (and AFfC couldn’t even get to this point because it failed the “Complete Fucking Idiot Test”*) is the one that asks THIS question: when you got to the sentence “And they had daggers” what did you think? Me? I felt intellectually unfulfilled; I felt like I had epididymal hypertension (look it up);

…like somebody just got done singing the National Anthem but then told me there would be no baseball game to play afterwards;

… like I got done reading a Clash of Kings and instead of the Battle of the Blackwater, Robb read a letter from Stannis wherein Stannis declared he won the battle, but nobody knew it for certain;

… like Empire Strikes Back, only instead of getting the scene where Vader declares his paternity of Luke, instead we skip the sword fight altogether and the next we see Luke he just sort of acts all mopey for the last 20 minutes of the movie and when somebody asked him about his missing, severed hand he replied, “Oh, cut myself shaving.”

Okay, seriously? I have stated now three times (on other threads) that it was the MOST like one of those bad jokes made REALLY popular in the early 90’s where the person telling the joke goes into intricate detail about every little thing and goes on and on and on and the jokes has been rolling for 35 minutes and then… IT JUST ENDS! No punch line, no belly-laugh, just THE END! Its one of those jokes where the punch-line is that the person listening to the joke just sat through a joke lasting 35 minutes! (ie: “Bill, I know what it means” and then the guy gets hit by a car; and “Whoa! Talking Cows!”)

That’s sort of the way I felt when I closed the book on … the book: it was really , really interesting what I read and I thought the story was masterfully told (except Tyrion which was horrid); but when I was done… I felt like the joke was on me. I just read all this great stuff that didn’t amounted to much. In fact, in many ways I was right back where I started. The book left like it was half-finished.

Which is another level of discomfort because for the last SIX YEARS I was told that AFfC was HALF a book; well, ADwD, which was the missing half, feels like IT’S only half-finished… what does that make AFfC? A third of a book? Seriously, Martin-defenders need to get their fractions straightened out.

ASoS: That’s gotta be like 1.5 books at this point. Its long; a shit-ton of stuff happens and everyone ends up dead. Oh, and dragons flambé people. Yes! That sounds like a book. In fact, when you include a Purple and Red Wedding and Oberyn’s life and IMMEDIATE DEATH, its practically two whole books. Call it 1.5 because it still has lots and lots of empty Cat chapters.

AGoT: 1.25 books. Everyone forgets how much happens in GoT; in fact the book that ENDS bears little resemblance to the book that started. Except Jon Snow. He continues to act like a douche.

ACoK: The quintessential “One Book.” That’s the unit. One CoK (haha… ah.. .anyway). See how easy that was?

ADwD: Easily .75 CoK.

AFfC: .5 CoK.

Done. Can’t we all agree on this? Let’s get a ruling.

I love this very appropriate quote by Gaiman:

It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time.

See what I mean!?!? Gaimen said TWO things 3 years ago AND NEITHER OF THEM IS TRUE! He's not just off by frafctions- he's off by whole ... whole numbers!

We are NOT getting a book a year (I swear, I had to read the quote three times because I thought Gaimen was having a stroke when he was saying it: only somebody devoid of reality would be able to state that we were getting a book a year); AND the quality has been coming down (somewhere these is a thread where we all rank the books, and it was the first three novels taking up the first three slots and the last two trailing in the rear BY A CONSIDERABLE MARGIN! But somehow the books are NOT coming down in quality? Really?). While I still think the books are really good (and I do), the reality is that we are getti8ng lesser quality books far less frequently.

You were bored by them: other people list them as the best bits in the book. *shrugs*

I really, really cannot believe this is still an argument. Yes, SOME people thought the Tyrion chapters were modern-day Shakespeare. And my uncle thinks Michael Bolton was a musical genius- just because SOME people think a certain way does not make that opinion the norm (or, it should be added, valid). You said the SAME EXACT THING (with the same “shrugs” comment afterwards, I should add) when people were saying that AFfC was 5 pounds of steaming poo. Buit… but SOME people thought it was great. Yes! And like 80% of those people are moderators on this forum. That does NOT MEAN that AFfC was a good book.

*(just a brief note here: did you read any reviews for ADwD? Notice how the VAST majority of reviewers took a great deal of time to say something to the effect of “Many were left disappointed by the last installment, A Feast For Crows.” Did you notice that? Well, there was a reason: because almost UNIVERSALLY READERS WERE LEFT DISAPPOINTED BY THE LAST INSTALLMENT, A FEAST FOR CROWS! That’s not some amazing coincidence!)

Anyway, I bring this up because the argument is intellectually barren- it asks the reader to assume that all opinions are equal regardless of the quantity. Yes, sometimes this is true. However, when learned people continually state the same issues and well-thought of readers (who, one would expect would be predisposed TO LIKE the books) continue to explain those criticisms its not simply a random collection of complaints: it takes on the stark odor of “evidence.” And that evidence is telling; you ignore it at your peril.

Now, let me end where I began: I actually though ADwD was a much, much better book than AFfC. I thought it had great pace, great things to tell me and great development. Its just that when I had thought the book was going to impact SOME LEVEL of satisfaction; some level of “return on (my) investment”; just when I thought I was going to get that positive feedback loop I was craving … I got a letter. And not much else.

And while that letter MAY have said “Ramsey Bolton” True-born Heir of Winterfell, what it really said were three letters:

I.O.U.

He certainly does.

(final Note: the "Complete Fucking Idiot Rule" is a rule promulgated by Roger Ebert which asks the question: Could all of the problems in the movie you are watching have been avoided had one of the main characters NOT been a "complete idiot" (I added the "fucking")?" If the answer is "yes" than you are watching a bad movie. AFfC? Could all of those problems have been avoided had Cresei not been such a complete idiot? See what I mean?).

[Finn]

… like I got done reading a Clash of Kings and instead of the Battle of the Blackwater, Robb read a letter from Stannis wherein Stannis declared he won the battle, but nobody knew it for certain;

[sNIP]

. . . and just when I thought I was going to get that positive feedback loop I was craving … I got a letter. And not much else.

Am I the only one that felt that the "BASTARD" letter with all its weirdness and mystery was actually more interesting than the Battle of the Blackwater?

Probably. I don't tend to think that battles in fiction are all that, and all I hear in these bitchy threads is "where's the battles?" I'm kind of hoping that we don't get a long, drawn-out Battle for Mereen.

Hmmm . . . fractions.

AGOT = 1.0 (the standard measurement of GRRM books for my purposes)

ASOS = 1.3

ADWD = 0.9

ACOK = 0.9

AFFC = 0.7