[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

You're missing my point. For this series, for this author, this book was going to be less plot-advancement intensive and more setup-intensive. I wasn't making a global statement.

I keep coming back to the main issue which I think is Expectations. If you went into the book expecting or even requiring, certain events be resolved or moved ahead significantly, you were setting yourself up for disappointment and that's your fault, not the author's.

This argument always gets brought up. To be clear, I read these books only after watching a few episodes on TV, and I don't think twice about any of the foreshadowings/prophecies/dreams etc. I couldn't care less about Tyrion and dragons and who gets to Dany.

Even when not faced with 11 years of waiting, I still find AFFC and ADWD (especially AFFC) to be very poor. In terms of balance (description vs plot) and structure these two score very low. Some people may like that, I don't.

[TheReader]

I'm sure this has been said somewhere in this thread, but FWIW: I just finished my re-read and feel (even more strongly than I felt on first read, which was, y'know, strongly) that the problem with ADWD boils down to the final 100 pages or so. Up until then I don't think there's a weak moment, short of maybe the Jaime chapter (which just should have been in TWOW I think); but in those final 100, I just feel as if the book feels rushed and incomplete (ironic, given the length of time it took to complete, but true nevertheless). That's esp. true of the final Jon chapter for sure, but I feel it with Dany, with Barristan (ie, _not_ using three Ser B chapters to give us more of his historical perspective, which is much more series-important than what happens with Hizdahr), with Winterfell and all the characters in play there, with everything. I'd say that with a great final 100 pages, this book could be ASOS. What I don't know is whether that gives me hope for the rest of the series (he can still do it, provided he remembers how to close) or fear about it (he's potentially lost what made him the greatest ever).

[Raventhal]

You're missing my point. For this series, for this author, this book was going to be less plot-advancement intensive and more setup-intensive. I wasn't making a global statement.

I keep coming back to the main issue which I think is Expectations. If you went into the book expecting or even requiring, certain events be resolved or moved ahead significantly, you were setting yourself up for disappointment and that's your fault, not the author's.

It's not my fault to expect more of the same from previous books. And not it's not about the plot resolutions. It's about the plot not moving with too much filler that could be summarized or happened off screen like it was in previous books or even certain chapters in this book where the plodding was kept to a min.

This book went from point A to A.5 and goes the long way.

[Nihilist]

Empire was great (like this book) but not a wonderfully complete story. It was about half a story. It ended with a giant unresolved piece of the plot, and with everyone's favorite character's demise.

How is Empire half a story? You make absolutely no sense. The rebels are rooted from their lair. Han and Leia are taken captive and one in subsequently rescued while the other is being prepared to be rescued. Darth Vader fights Luke and wins, revealing that he is his father. What part about this story is not complete? It finishes the important plot points it set up(Luke vs Vader, Han and Leia on Bespin, Rebels on Hoth, etc). A Dance with Dragons does not. We get no conclusion for Winterfel. No conclusion for Mereen. And a bunch of cliffhangers for various characters. More importantly, A LOT HAPPENS in Empire Strikes Back, while the majority of aDwD is spent traveling. Could you imagine Empire being mostly about Luke's adventures on the way to Dagobah? THANK GOD FOR LIGHTSPEED! I honestly cannot emphasize how wrong you are.

"Lacks action" I would never claim, although Empire did have less action and more training than the other Stars Wars movies.

How? Battle of Hoth, fight escaping Hoth into asteroid field, Battle of cloud city(with vader vs Luke and Leia escape). Empire has some of the biggest set pieces of the entire story. And certainly has more action than the first movie.

[The Human Abstract]

How is Empire half a story? You make absolutely no sense. The rebels are rooted from their lair. Han and Leia are taken captive and one in subsequently rescued while the other is being prepared to be rescued. Darth Vader fights Luke and wins, revealing that he is his father. What part about this story is not complete? It finishes the important plot points it set up(Luke vs Vader, Han and Leia on Bespin, Rebels on Hoth, etc). A Dance with Dragons does not. We get no conclusion for Winterfel. No conclusion for Mereen. And a bunch of cliffhangers for various characters. More importantly, A LOT HAPPENS in Empire Strikes Back, while the majority of aDwD is spent traveling. Could you imagine Empire being mostly about Luke's adventures on the way to Dagobah? THANK GOD FOR LIGHTSPEED! I honestly cannot emphasize how wrong you are.

I suppose it depends on the manner in which you decide to summarize the events.

You can just say: Luke and Vader fight. Vader wins. RESOLVED. Nothing left open.

I can just as easily say: Jon struggles to command of the wall. He dies. RESOLVED.

Never mind that in both cases we all know the conflict isn't resolved. That Vader vs. Luke isn't resolved. That the empire vs. the rebels isn't resolved. That the wall's situation is not resolved.

[Nihilist]

I suppose it depends on the manner in which you decide to summarize the events.

You can just say: Luke and Vader fight. Vader wins. RESOLVED. Nothing left open.

I can just as easily say: Jon struggles to command of the wall. He dies. RESOLVED.

Never mind that in both cases we all know the conflict isn't resolved. That Vader vs. Luke isn't resolved. That the empire vs. the rebels isn't resolved. That the wall's situation is not resolved.

Please read to yourself what you just wrote. I can't honestly post a response without ridiculing you so please do so yourself.

You honestly did not just compare the plot point Luke vs Vader to Jon "doing stuff" on the wall.

[nategator]

Sorry, if you thought aDwD was "a bitch to read" you should find something else to read.

I mean, life's too short and you were not assigned this series by your English teacher (no English teachers are that cool). Also $20 is $20.

Was this book #4 out of 5 books so far in aSoIaF? Sure, I can agree with that. But most folks derived immense enjoyment from the experience.

If you did not, perhaps you should check out some other writers. Even better, stick with completed or near-completed series since the wait is ruining the experience for you. I can give you some recommendations if you need it.

Good luck.

[The Human Abstract]

You honestly did not just compare the plot point Luke vs Vader to Jon "doing stuff" on the wall.

Correct. I did no such thing.

[variance]

I think at a lot of ADWD could have been removed and the same with AFFC.

I think the Quentyn Martell chapters could have been largely removed as well as most of Tyrion's.

[Ser Pistus]

I suppose it depends on the manner in which you decide to summarize the events.

You can just say: Luke and Vader fight. Vader wins. RESOLVED. Nothing left open.

I can just as easily say: Jon struggles to command of the wall. He dies. RESOLVED.

Never mind that in both cases we all know the conflict isn't resolved. That Vader vs. Luke isn't resolved. That the empire vs. the rebels isn't resolved. That the wall's situation is not resolved.

Now I am starting to believe that you are not serious. Yes, it was only Round 1 between Luke and Vader. And no, Luke was not left hanging from the bottom of Cloud City, leaving the audience unsure whether he is dead or alive. Empire had as much a resolution as needed, in all storylines (as explained beautifully by Nihilist). Empire did NOT end in a cheap cliffhanger.

Dance, however...

There were a few minor storylines that had proper resolutions: Davos, Quentin, the Griffs. But the 3 main lines (the North, Meereen and King's Landing) all ended in cliffhangers. And a few of these cliffhangers (Jon's "death" or Ramsay's letter) were just terrible.

[Auska]

Loved the book. All this complaining makes me sad and makes me feel disconnected from other readers b/c I simply can't identify with hating on this series.

Also. I thought it was extremely well-written (literary merits), even outside the really brilliant stuff like Theon's chapters, and that the storyline pacing was just about right. As I've mentioned recently, I've been re-reading AGOT, and with the latter books now as comparative material, I think AGOT (and ACOK to a lesser degree) actually suffers slightly from skipping the travelogues &c. The story itself of course is even more compelling now that I'm looking for all the subtle clues, too.

I understand others feel differently about it.

There is one style improvement I'd like to see in WOW: shorter chapters. Many of the chapters could actually have been split a bit differently without really changing them much, but I think the book would have felt a bit more dynamic with more jumps between points of view.

[The Human Abstract]

Empire did NOT end in a cheap cliffhanger.

I can agree with this. We do not end "Empire" on the eve of a battle or fight. My earlier point about "Empire" being half a story had to do with all the main conflicts being left unresolved. Not the "cheap" cliffhangerness of any ending scenes.

[Aegonmyface]

See what bothers me is the need some people have for overdramatic hyperbole. They do it here to some degree, but they do it a lot more in the Amazon review forum.

“I did not think Book 4 and 5 moved as fast as Books 1, 2 and 3” is a very reasonable opinion, one which I share.

But that’s not human nature. Instead, people who felt Books 4 and 5 were subpar have to go with “This was the biggest piece of crap ever written! My 3-year-old nephew could have written better! I want my $20 back!”

If item A is less good than item B, we have some sort of primal need to qualify item B as being the single worst thing ever created in the history of mankind, even though that is often not the case.

It’s human nature, I know, but frankly it gets old. Book 5’s pacing flaws aside, there’s still an amazing trove of interesting stuff in there that quickly qualifies it as being better than 90 percent of the fantasy genre. If you don’t believe me, grab a random opus from Feist, or Salvatore, or Goodkind book and then we’ll talk.

And the money thing is especially insulting. People who will pay $7 for a mediocre cup of coffee suddenly get their panties in a twist over a $20 hardback. Spare me.

Books 4 and 5 are simply good instead of great, but I’m not sure why many people can’t admit that instead of having to portray them as the worst two pieces of literature ever created. Some form of catharsis perhaps?

[Ser Pistus]

(...) people who felt Books 4 and 5 were subpar have to go with “This was the biggest piece of crap ever written! My 3-year-old nephew could have written better! I want my $20 back!”

Nice work. You have created a cute straw man for yourself, and went on to slay it in just another 10 lines.

[undertow]

I loved almost all of the chapters set in the North, even most of the Jon chapters. For me, every other POV (until I realized Selmy was awesome) was just stuff I had to read in between the real chapters. Asha, Reek/Theon, Davos, etc., were great parts of an OK book.

[The Dark Griffin]

This book was a bitch to read because it was so heavy. Literally. I'm old school and refuse to get an e-reader, so I can't really complain, but still... the thing is a cinder block.

[Davvy]

I got impatient with the Meereenese chapters and skipped forward a lot reading them. All the other POVs were good.

I agree that Daenerys' story arc could have been tightened up a bit - there was just too much diddling back and forth, and the book would have been better, IMO, with less writing there.

This book was a bitch to read because it was so heavy. Literally. I'm old school and refuse to get an e-reader, so I can't really complain, but still... the thing is a cinder block.

LOL - I read mine on an electronic version, there was no way I was going to lug around that monster, especially since I love reading when catching my morning coffee at Starbucks, during lunch, or late at night, in bed... :)

[GoldImp]

I can understand why a lot of people are disappointed with ADWD. Many of them have been waiting for half-a-decade. The Jon, Dany, and Tyrion chapters were unrelentingly slow. Especially Dany, who doesn't really do anything decisive. Tyrion was also rather sad, wallowing in his misery and letting Tywin's ghost haunt him. But I did love Jon's POV. He's become a lot more mature and calculating. It was also great to see Arya, Theon, Asha, and Davos. Jon Connington is my new favorite character. ADWD is still a great book, but it was burdened by astronomical expectations. Hype backlash was inevitable

[Aegonmyface]

thanks, I know what a strawman is.

Go read some of the one star reviews on Amazon and then report back to me. The overdrama was, if anything, understated.

[BRETTASOIAF]

Let's be honest. There is really only one problem with this book, and that is that Jon died. Even though I hope he is back for the next book, that means his death here was just a cop out for something bigger, but I will now have to wait a very long time to find out what (presumably that he is AA).