[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[The Marquis de Leech]

ADWD was horribly uneven in quality*, and an awful lot of that stems from certain POVs being padded beyond all recognition. Quentyn could have been turned into a prologue, Tyrion's story could have been trimmed down to five chapters, Jaime's chapter could have been axed altogether, Arya's and Cersei's moved to the next book, and Daenaerys' story could have been condensed down to allow the inclusion of the battle.

*The Theon, Asha, Bran, and Davos chapters were great.

[Lord of Distraction]

I hope I'm not being too presumptuous with my first post here. But I probably am.

I found the book painful to read, and like every other cocky newb, I will spam this thread with my ADWD opinions, assuming everyone wants to hear my inane ramblings. And yes, I signed up to post this. But not because I hate, but because I used to love this series so hard that I just can't help myself. It's a catharsis, so forgiveness please.

Well, it's here. With no dancing. And almost no dragons. Sigh.

I've loved this series since I first read GOT way back in 1996 when my roommate in University lent it to me saying, "Hey, you should read this. It's a lot better than that Dragonlance dreck." It was. Much better. But now I find myself missing Raistlyn more and more, and loving ASOIAF less and less.

The problems with this book are legion.

* Where's the beef? There is no story. Really. Nothing much happens. At all. 900 pages of bun, 100 pages of beef. Stale beef. Or pork. Manderly "To Serve Man" pork.

* Travelogues are boring. Tyrion, I'm looking at you. And past you, at some new guys from Dorne. And also at that other new Cottinpickin guy, or whatever his name is.

* The only thing more boring than travelogues is sitting about, moping around, and muchadoing about nothing. Jon and Dany, go to your rooms.

* Speaking of new guys. Egg better be a fake. Nuff said. P.S. What's the deal with all the new guys?

* Pretension does not become you. This is not high literature. Tyrion is no Charles Marlow, and his river-ride is no Heart of Darkness. So please George, just stop. For your sake, and ours.

* It's my job to be repetitive. My job. My job. Repetitiveness is my job. If I hear "words are wind" one more time, I think I am going to cry.

* Who mixed that sexual sadism up in my fantasy? One word: Reek. If I wanted to read the "Story of O" I would. I don't. So please George, just stop (remember, repetitiveness is my job).

* To die or not to die, that is the question. Actually, there is no question. Other than Lord Edd, Robb, Tywin, and a few other chumps, nobody dies. It's either a cheap fakeout or zombie time. I'm looking at you Brienne, Hound, Davos, Mance, Tyrion, Theon, Cersei, Jon (c'mon, do you really think he's dead?), Cat, Gregor, Quentyn (okay, maybe not you Quentyn), and Stannis (no way he's dead). Enough with the "Is [fill in name] dead? Tune in next time!".

* I see POVs everywhere I go, everywhere I go. George, it ain't easy being green, and it ain't easy managing a million plot threads. I know. Especially when you throw in a bunch more POVs so late in the game. At least I hope this is late in the game. Actually, scratch that. I no longer care whether this is late in the game.

I could go on and on. And I would. But my shrew-like wife keeps telling me I have an "internet addiction." She's wrong though, as all my WOW guild members can attest.

So I sez, of all the things wrong with the book, the wrongest is that it badly, badly needed an editor. George needs an editor. Because George, words are wind (*sob*), and this book passes a great deal of it.

In conclusion, I'm reminded of another George who once said "Special effects are just a tool: a means of telling a story. People have a tendency to confuse them as an ends unto themselves. A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing." That George lost Gary Kurtz and ended up destroying Star Wars.

In ADWD, Tyrion never found his Kurtz, but I sincerely hope GRRM finds his - Gary or otherwise. For his sake, and ours.

[papercut]

Martin himself describes the writing process of Feast: ‘The last one was a bitch.” and of ADWD: “This one was three bitches and a bastard”. If the author had trouble writing it It’s not surprising that it is also “three bitches and a bastard” to read. Presumably the first 3 books were easier to write, I also found them far more enjoyable to read.

I think part of my difficulty with reading ADWD is my refusal to skip anything, I never felt this urge to in the 1st 3 books. I read this today and thought it was very applicable, in his essay “The Art of Fiction” Sommerset Maughm writes: “The wise reader will get the greatest enjoyment … if he learns the useful art of skipping. A sensible person does not read a novel as a task. He is prepared to interest himself in the characters… and what happens to them, he sympathises with their troubles and is gladdened by their joys. But he knows instinctively where his interest lies and he follows it as surely as a hound follows the scent of a fox. Sometimes, through the author’s failure, he loses the scent. Then he flounders about till he finds it again. He skips”

My interests are in Westeros, not in Mereen. I didn’t feel the urge to skip in the Theon, Jon or Davos chapters. With Dany, Jon and Tyrion’s character regression from the end of ASOS I have lost interest and sympathy with them. Its not a very plausible or thoroughly fleshed out setting, unlike Westeros with full family trees, coast of arms and centuries of history. As a reader I am floundering in these chapters because the author floundered in these chapters. Generally I can enjoy brilliant prose with zero plot. However Martin’s excessive repetition of words especially inconsistent faux-medieval ones (serjeant, neeps, needs must, nuncle) is not good prose.

I have only just finished ADWD but others seemed to have finished very quickly, I suspect they skipped many Tyrion and Dany bits and probably found the whole experience more enjoyable.

The Martin in the first 3 books is no longer the Martin of these last two, I hope returns to enjoying writing the next 2 (or 3) so I can enjoy reading them again!

PS I was going to reply to the “Well that was disappointing” thread but its been locked without comment.

I agree with you completely, but I DID skim once I realized that the Mareen and Wall chapters were going nowhere. I found the book to be much more enjoyable that way. In fact, GRRM often repeated himself unnecessarily in many chapters. It was either poorly edited, or written over several years and not justified (both are the case). A third idea I have is that it might have been partially ghost written. :ph34r:

But let us remember, GRRM is not our Bitch!

[Alex]

The main problem with ADWD is that it feels unfinished, it stops just before some great stuff is about to happen - battle near Meereen, aftermath of Jon assassination attempt, the rest of those who wanted to find Dany finally reaching their destination. It indeed feels like ACOK just before the battle of Blackwater. Looks like GRRM was pressured to finally release something, and stopping the book before polishing the solution to some of the cliffhangers was the preferred solution.

It was a much better read than AFFC though, because even with all the padding and POV chapters that have nothing to do with anything (Quentyn, Arya, half of Dany's chapters, some of Tyrion's chapters) lots of stuff did happen. If only some of the plot lines were finished and not ended with cliffhanger, it could've been at excellent book.

[Misanthrope]

not because I hate, but because I used to love this series so hard that I just can't help myself. It's a catharsis, so forgiveness please.

Believe me, you are not alone in such sentiments.

[nukrow]

It's what happens when you turn a trilogy into a hexlogy or heptogy. You pad.

[Dennai]

Who mixed that sexual sadism up in my fantasy? One word: Reek. If I wanted to read the "Story of O" I would.

And if you had, you'd realise how moronic the comparison is.

[Ellroy]

For a boring or difficult book to read, there are a lot of people who have read it in a week or so and we're talking of a monster of 1000 pages. English is not my natural language and for me it's more difficult... but I could not stop reading it. So, I guess that it's a question of tastes. I mean, it takes me a couple of months to read the first book of the Malazan series: I was seriously bored by it. And I read The Gardens of the Moon in italian. But if the rate of reading completition says anything (just look at the amount of review in Goodreads for example), it's hard to say that is difficult to read. Mind, I'm not saying that ADwD is perfect or that it could not have used some editing to cut some fat here and there or that I prefer the pacing of the last couple of books to the one of AGoT and ASoS (I do not, off course), but we do not know the plan in GRRM's mind and we cannot say what's necessary or not for the series. There are a lot of chapters in the first couple of books that could have looked superfluos and that has a nice payout in ASoS.

[grom]

....

Bran's arc is going to find the three-eye-crow and he finally freaking does, and it's awesome.

...

I agree! and the reason of the awesomeness of Bran´s arc is that Martin didnt torture us with 10 more chapters of Bran being cold in the snow.

Where ADWD took characters I loved and rendered them unreadable, AFFC did the opposite. I didn't give a whit about Jamie, Cersie, Breinne before AFFC, and now I count them among the most memorable characters of the series for me. And while ADWD did that for Theon, It did the reverse for Dany and Tyrion and Arya.

AFFC, though not the best book of the series, was to me a throughly enjoyable, and fulfilling experience. I never skipped a word of it.

I can fully believe that GRRM found writing ADWD "three bitches and a bastard”, because that's exactly how it felt to read.

I complely agree with this. In my opinion, AFFC is much better than ADWD.

I found the book painful to read, and like every other cocky newb, I will spam this thread with my ADWD opinions, assuming everyone wants to hear my inane ramblings. And yes, I signed up to post this. But not because I hate, but because I used to love this series so hard that I just can't help myself. It's a catharsis, so forgiveness please.

I am also completely identified with this.

AGOT/ACOK/ASOS is the best fantasy I ever read. AFFC barely qualifiers as a filler in the series.

ADWD is sadly on par with the rest of Martin's work, which means far below the first 3 books of the series.

[mormont]

I am also completely identified with this.

AGOT/ACOK/ASOS is the best fantasy I ever read. AFFC barely qualifiers as a filler in the series.

ADWD is sadly on par with the rest of Martin's work, which means far below the first 3 books of the series.

Just goes to show there's no accounting for taste, I suppose. I literally can't imagine appending the word 'sadly' to a comparison to the rest of GRRM's work: the likes of 'Dying of the Light', 'Fevre Dream' and 'Armageddon Rag' (to say nothing of the award-winning short stories) are easily on a par with anything in ASOIAF, in any book.

[Ran]

Yeah, those stories... George was probably the best short story writer working in the genre back in the '70's. And that's a strong decade for SF short fiction, too. No accounting for taste, indeed.

[dreamcatcher]

Westeros chapters were magnificent and what kept me going. ASOS material.

Essos... not so much. Except Arya. Tyrion starts out great, but after he parts his ways with Griff he just fades out. I feel like a lot of it was filler. The thing is I'd expected all these characters to reach Dany, but only one of them did and he died.

But too look at the bright side again - Jon, Theon, Davos, Melisandre, Asha... Perfect.

[Cot]

And somewhere between Ran and Grom there lies the reality. :P

[Ran]

Cot,

I actually think one can show empirically that GRRM was certainly one of the best short fiction writers in that decade. He was nominated for or winning an award -- sometimes multiple awards -- every single year between 1973 and 1980 (for works published in 1979), including for best author collection in 1976 (with some of his best work still ahead of him) and in 1979 in particular he won five awards for just two stories ("Sandkings" -- which swept the Hugos, Locus, and Nebulas, and was nominated for the Balrog -- and "The Way of Cross and Dragons" which took another Hugo and a Locus, and just missed out the Nebula).

He didn't win every year, but he was in the forefront just about every year, a level of consistency that some of the winners didn't show.

There's some really exceptional work there, and while one must allow for different tastes, I think it's odd to dismiss his non-ASoIaF work with such a broad brush. Mileage, it does vary. I highly recommend getting ahold of Dreamsongs, for any who haven't had the chance -- it collects his earliest journeyman work in large degree, and also some of the absolute best of his short fiction, along with "The Hedge Knight" and other works. Plus his autobiographical bits, which are great.

[Ellroy]

Just goes to show there's no accounting for taste, I suppose. I literally can't imagine appending the word 'sadly' to a comparison to the rest of GRRM's work: the likes of 'Dying of the Light', 'Fevre Dream' and 'Armageddon Rag' (to say nothing of the award-winning short stories) are easily on a par with anything in ASOIAF, in any book.

I'm not a great fan of Dying of the Light and I do not like Wildcards since I'm not much into super-heroes stuff. His shorter work: they are a little bit hit or miss for me. Some are great, some less. But I do agree about Fevre Dream and Armageddon Rag. They are wonderfull and it's sad that the commercial failure of the second one pushed George towards television for so much time. Btw, the Rag is my favourite, since I love the idea of that Rock n' Ctuhluh tale and it seems all very personal and autentic to me. But they are not worse than ASoIaF. Different? Yes, they are not fantasy and less epic in scope. But not worse.

[redxavier]

I really enjoyed ADWD, but I agree it's problematic from a structural standpoint. The problem, I think, goes back to that damn 5-year gap and the decision to abandon it. In the first 3 books, GRRM knew exactly what he wanted to accomplish in each one. But now, in books 4 and 5, it's like he's getting caught up in the action himself.

The irony is that nothing really happens in either of these gap books, other than Jon's 'death', that we couldn't have just been told about after a time jump. I believe Martin was right in that the length of the planned gap didn't work with certain plot threads (Stannis in the North with the Boltons for example) and he felt he couldn't gloss over them, but when it came to writing the story of that time period, he ended up filling the 'gap' with stuff he had never planned on. So we get half a dozen Ironborn chapters about a non-event like who's going to be their next King, yet more chapters about Brienne's fruitless search, and what feels like half a book of Dany waiting for other characters to arrive and move her off her chair, all of whom are waylaid by travelogues of their own.

Remember when Barristan the Awesome just turned up at Dany? Remember when Stannis just turned up at the Wall? Remember when Catelyn just turned up in King's Landing? The pacing of the story has slowed to a relative crawl. And this isn't just in comparison to the ASOS, but to all 3 of the first books.

[grom]

Just goes to show there's no accounting for taste, I suppose. I literally can't imagine appending the word 'sadly' to a comparison to the rest of GRRM's work: the likes of 'Dying of the Light', 'Fevre Dream' and 'Armageddon Rag' (to say nothing of the award-winning short stories) are easily on a par with anything in ASOIAF, in any book.

Armaggedon Rag was very original for me, although the supernatural elements felt forced into the story. Overall i did like the book.

Fevre was just another story of vampires, in an interesting setting, riverboats and all. I did not regret the purchase.

Dying of the light was so boring I dont even remember the plot. Maybe there was no plot.

I agree with you, there's no accounting for taste. The fact that anybody can compare those books with the ground-shattering experience that AGOT/ACOK/ASOS was, proves it.

On the other hand, if your reference is 'Dying of the Light' I can fully understand why you liked ADWD.

[David Selig]

I found ADWD extremely readable, I finished it in less than a week without any skipping or skimming and I am not really a fast reader. Even the chapters I found weaker (mostly those in Meereen and some of Tyrion's travelogue) were never boring or tedious to me. I find it weaker than the others in the series mostly due to the too many cliffhangers and the padding in the Tyrion and Dany's chapters. But in terms of prose style it was beautifully crafted, repetitions and all.

I'd personally pick Tiptree as "the best" short story writer of the 70s - she had an incredible string of masterpieces in that period. But Martin was certainly up there as one of the best during that time.

[banditry]

I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody. ~Bill Cosby

I think that pretty much sums it up. Theres just no pleasing some people...

This.

[Greywolf2375]

A bitch to read? Not for me, no. I'm about a third of the way through, and quite enjoying it. I'm enjoying Tyrions ride down the river - could GRRM have said "two months pass, Tyrion got kidnapped, prioked his finger each day and then finally met Dany (whether he does or not I don't know yet)". I'm enjoying Davos and the workings going on for Stannis, seeing Bran and his journey to the three eyed crow.

To me it sounds more like because the climax is closer than it had been before folks just want the Cliff's notes version with maybe a couple more memorable quotes.