[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[A Song Of Vice And Ire]

Well done, that's a lot better than your previous attempt. Unfortunately it's still enormously presumptuous, and unnecessarily so. People have been explaining, in length and perfectly reasonable detail, why they hold the opinions they do. I don't know where you have gotten the idea that there's a cabal of haters who really dislike ASOIAF and ploughed through ADWD just to complain about it. People read it wanting to enjoy it, expecting something absed on what they enjoyed in previous books in the series. There are areas in which they are disappointed, and their opinions are well qualified. It is the 'I loved it and don't understand these complaints' vocal minority that can do better than make ad hominem attacks and throw up strawmen as defensively as if someone had just spat in their face and punched their sister.

Don't presume to dismiss other people's opinions. It's not worked yet.

[vilator]

i'll address the issue like an adult instead of attacking the person like an insecure child.

this is my perspective (doesn't have to be yours):

I read the first six books of The Wheel of Time, and gave up half way through the sixth because it wasn't fun anymore.

this is fantasy fiction-the reason we read it is because it is fun. when it ceases to be fun, shouldn't we cease to read it? if that's so, then the only reason someone continues to read something they dislike is to complain about it, which seems silly to me.

If you read something just to complain about it, there is very little chance of changing your opinion.

Due to the long wait, and the negative attitudes that resulted, many people judged the book based on the length of time it took to write, and that (IMO) is unfair.

Part of the problem may have been expectations. Some people had it in their mind what it would take to make the book "good" and that didn't happen, so to them, the book isn't good. If that is the case, don't read anymore of this series because i don't think the story will ever go in the direction people expect- that's why it became popular in the first place.

I honestly think that the majority of readers enjoyed the book. Those that did not are a very vocal minority, so I thought I would speak up for those whose voice isn't being heard in proportion on these threads.

Loved the book! I appreciate it for what it is, instead of disliking it for what it is not.

LOL. Did this minority magically appear after the 3rd book? LOL. And so many things wrong with that sentence, wow I don't even want to begin.

[mormont]

[mod] We expect people to be polite and respectful in discussion. This thread currently doesn't look polite and respectful to me. Any more name-calling or rudeness will result in deletions and possibly suspensions. [/mod]

[L’Age d’or]

i'll address the issue like an adult instead of attacking the person like an insecure child.

this is my perspective (doesn't have to be yours):

I read the first six books of The Wheel of Time, and gave up half way through the sixth because it wasn't fun anymore.

this is fantasy fiction-the reason we read it is because it is fun. when it ceases to be fun, shouldn't we cease to read it? if that's so, then the only reason someone continues to read something they dislike is to complain about it, which seems silly to me.

If you read something just to complain about it, there is very little chance of changing your opinion.

Due to the long wait, and the negative attitudes that resulted, many people judged the book based on the length of time it took to write, and that (IMO) is unfair.

Part of the problem may have been expectations. Some people had it in their mind what it would take to make the book "good" and that didn't happen, so to them, the book isn't good. If that is the case, don't read anymore of this series because i don't think the story will ever go in the direction people expect- that's why it became popular in the first place.

I honestly think that the majority of readers enjoyed the book. Those that did not are a very vocal minority, so I thought I would speak up for those whose voice isn't being heard in proportion on these threads.

Loved the book! I appreciate it for what it is, instead of disliking it for what it is not.

Go check the Rank the books now thread and see the results for yourself. This forum has been the most loyal and fierce fan forum of the series for a long time and sometimes to a fault, it used to scare newcomers a bit as a result. No one can question the love members hold here for the series and Martin so please be more respectful towards other members' opinion. Arguments such as Those who did not absolutely love the book dont get it/If you dont like it dont read it and such are not gonna work nor welcome constructive feedback and reactions.

[Nukelavee]

It's funny that, on days when I'm feeling like the book disappointed me, I read one of these threads and find myself defending it.

Don't get me wrong - there are truly parts that left me less than pleased: the Mereen arc seemed a muddle, parts felt like I was watching Fred run past the same stretch of his wall chasing Dino or Barney, and, yeah, so sick of lines like "it is known, where do whores go," etc.

But then I wonder to myself, how many parts to I consider bad, just because, well, IRL, that shit drives me nuts?

Tyrion and his Tysha obsession? yup. Annoys me to no end, on the other hand, god knows people really do that stuff.

Dany and her sellsword? Yup, another thing that I dislike hearing about from real people, or witnessing.

On the other hand, isn't that, to a point, what helps make this the series we claim to love? Real characters, with real aggenda's?

Sure, I feel like too much of the book is pointless anecdotes and travelogue, but...damnit, I'm on record with friends as saying I WANTED to know more about background of the world.

In short, my first reading didn't leave me overjoyed, but the last week or so has made me realize the issue is I didn't get the story I wanted...

On the other hand, GRRM has no idea who I am, or what I hoped for, and if he had totally consulted with me on this project, odds are nobody else would have agreed with what I thought was teh perfect result.

[Rex]

On the other hand, isn't that, to a point, what helps make this the series we claim to love? Real characters, with real aggenda's?

The only problem is that George is writing a Fantasy series, a genre which well and truly can be described as escapism. Now he's changed stuff around with it and I agree, it can still be gritty and realistic, but it'd work much better without the boring real life drama in it. It's not supposed to be a soap.

[redxavier]

It's not supposed to be a soap.

Exactly, and most of Dany's POV chapters read like a soap. Especially the one in between her marriage and the arena battles.

[variance]

I am still trying to figure out how an author who gave us the Connington chapters gave us the Dany chapters.

Someone needs to tell GRRM that sometimes less is more.

[Faranya]

See, my personal view of the book is not that it is a bad story. I enjoyed reading each and every chapter, some more than others (Victarion>>Dany, for instance)

However, my displeasure comes from the book overall, because very few important plot arcs were meaningfully resolved. A cliffhanger is not a good resolution to an entire book, in my opinion. Dany's ending was fine, it was a decent breaking point for her story. Davos' ending, by comparrison, was too cliffhanger-y, but not bad. Barristan's and Jon's were awful places to stop...

Does that mean it was unpleasant to read? No, just that it was unsatisfying to finish.

[Rockroi]

Go check the Rank the books now thread and see the results for yourself. This forum has been the most loyal and fierce fan forum of the series for a long time and sometimes to a fault, it used to scare newcomers a bit as a result. No one can question the love members hold here for the series and Martin so please be more respectful towards other members' opinion. Arguments such as Those who did not absolutely love the book dont get it/If you dont like it dont read it and such are not gonna work nor welcome constructive feedback and reactions.

This post if as cogent and precise argument as to why criticism is okay (so long as its constructive). I get all bent out of shape when I read people who say "If you don't like it, don't read it..." That's sort of the problem: I DO like the series; I enjoy these characters; and I think this writer is incredible (he's such a good writer that we forget how much ... utter tripe is written in this genre).

At the same time, isn't it understandable if I have some issues with the pace of this story that I express my displeasure? If I am left unfulfilled with this (now absurd) wait for some sort of continuity (Character A travels to a place AND ACTUALLY GETS THERE!- imagine that? -or- Character A desires to meet Character B and then Character A and B meet) isn't it reasonable that I should say something? Is it too much to ask that by the end of the book I feel some level of satisfaction with what I just read? To say nothing of what I have been joined to for 13 years?

That's my issue: I do not want to feel like a pariah merely because I am critical. I do not wish to be seen as a needless complainer if I have some issues with the books.

And the opposite is true - when I praise the books I feel as if my praise is credible because it comes from a highly critical place (as opposed to some on the boards who find enjoyment out of everything Martin rights- ie: Book 7 "A List of Groceries" - if that were an actual book I would bet all the money in my pockets that there would be boards who would say "It was brilliant! The way he listed the produce after the dairy! That's fine writing there. I put it ahead of SoS and just behind AFfC as the best book in the series!"). I think its okay to be critical so long as that critical eye does not become the desire to merely be contrarian. And that's a fine line.

So yeah: ADwD was a good, yet disappointing book; it was not fulfilling in what it was telling me when compared to the other books (the time I waited for the book is immaterial but certainly did not help the book). I can talk with anyone over why, precisely, I think this way. So long as I am respectful of others (to a degree- if somebody is just being an idiot I can call them on that) and bring up reasonable arguments, there is no reason for me or anyone else to "go away" or stop reading the books.

We are the loyal opposition. And most of us are more "loyal" than we are "opposition."

[Nukelavee]

Part of my "acceptance" of the book is that, well, I've read quite a bit of GRRM's other works. This isn't the first time I haven't been overwhelmed with how amazing he is... WildCards always suffered from weak editing and a lot of whatever storylines.

Plus - Beauty and the Beast...there's no reason to expect him to write a perfect story, much less MY concept of a perfect story.

I can stand not liking all of DwD, and I can stand reading why other's dislike elements of it, so long as it's a legitimate criticism.

[tybeechris]

This post if as cogent and precise argument as to why criticism is okay (so long as its constructive). I get all bent out of shape when I read people who say "If you don't like it, don't read it..." That's sort of the problem: I DO like the series; I enjoy these characters; and I think this writer is incredible (he's such a good writer that we forget how much ... utter tripe is written in this genre).

At the same time, isn't it understandable if I have some issues with the pace of this story that I express my displeasure? If I am left unfulfilled with this (now absurd) wait for some sort of continuity (Character A travels to a place AND ACTUALLY GETS THERE!- imagine that? -or- Character A desires to meet Character B and then Character A and B meet) isn't it reasonable that I should say something? Is it too much to ask that by the end of the book I feel some level of satisfaction with what I just read? To say nothing of what I have been joined to for 13 years?

That's my issue: I do not want to feel like a pariah merely because I am critical. I do not wish to be seen as a needless complainer if I have some issues with the books.

And the opposite is true - when I praise the books I feel as if my praise is credible because it comes from a highly critical place (as opposed to some on the boards who find enjoyment out of everything Martin rights- ie: Book 7 "A List of Groceries" - if that were an actual book I would bet all the money in my pockets that there would be boards who would say "It was brilliant! The way he listed the produce after the dairy! That's fine writing there. I put it ahead of SoS and just behind AFfC as the best book in the series!"). I think its okay to be critical so long as that critical eye does not become the desire to merely be contrarian. And that's a fine line.

So yeah: ADwD was a good, yet disappointing book; it was not fulfilling in what it was telling me when compared to the other books (the time I waited for the book is immaterial but certainly did not help the book). I can talk with anyone over why, precisely, I think this way. So long as I am respectful of others (to a degree- if somebody is just being an idiot I can call them on that) and bring up reasonable arguments, there is no reason for me or anyone else to "go away" or stop reading the books.

We are the loyal opposition. And most of us are more "loyal" than we are "opposition."

Well said.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

... as to why criticism is okay (so long as its constructive). I get all bent out of shape when I read people who say "If you don't like it, don't read it..." That's sort of the problem: I DO like the series; I enjoy these characters; and I think this writer is incredible (he's such a good writer that we forget how much ... utter tripe is written in this genre)...

When the mods indulge in that kind of argument, what hope is there for the others 'defenders'?