[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[IheartTesla]

Was Moby Dick also perceived as having a broken story arc and ending with a cheap cliffhanger? I do not recall, did Moby Dick end with Ishmael's mother getting a letter from Moby Dick where the white whale claims he destroyed the ship and everyone on board? :D

Yes. Well, not quite in the fashion you describe, but there are quite a few descriptions of numerous varieties of whales and whatnot in the main text, and the cultures of the various nationalities that make up the crew of The Pequod and other seafaring bon mots sprinkled liberally through the text. None of them actually serve to 'advance' the plot.

It also does end with a cliffhanger where everyone dies, and only the epilogue reminds us that The Rachel picked up Ishmael hanging on to Queequeg's coffin/bed.

In the end, the plot, such as it is, is really secondary to the themes running through the book. Now I dont know if this is the case for ASOIAF, but I am more willing than most to give the author some latitude when it comes to digressions. It was quite a common conceit amongst 19th century writers.

[memmorio]

I think maybe his eyes were bigger than his stomach when it comes to this series. Perhaps he saw what he wanted to do, but as he moved along realized all of the subtle things that we the reader should know about what's going on. When this realization came to be, the plot began to slow so that we can take in all of this information that he believes in important. These books seem like a project for a group of great writers, not one great writer.

[TheReader]

Yes. Well, not quite in the fashion you describe, but there are quite a few descriptions of numerous varieties of whales and whatnot in the main text, and the cultures of the various nationalities that make up the crew of The Pequod and other seafaring bon mots sprinkled liberally through the text. None of them actually serve to 'advance' the plot.

It also does end with a cliffhanger where everyone dies, and only the epilogue reminds us that The Rachel picked up Ishmael hanging on to Queequeg's coffin/bed.

In the end, the plot, such as it is, is really secondary to the themes running through the book. Now I dont know if this is the case for ASOIAF, but I am more willing than most to give the author some latitude when it comes to digressions. It was quite a common conceit amongst 19th century writers.

I love Moby, and love big sprawling digressive 19th century novels in general. But ADWD is the fifth novel in an ongoing series, so I'm not at all sure that the comparison here makes any sense given those radically different contexts and purposes and etc.

[Sega AM2]

I can already see it in TWOW.

"You know nothing, Azor Ahai".

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I can totally relate to most of what you've written, but I vehemently disagree here. I think this chapter is a natural continuation of his narrative at Riverrun. He made decisions that pissed off everyone, to a certain extent, but acheived the objective in getting Raventree back into the king's peace. Can you expand on your problems with Jaime in this chapter?

I think for me Jaime's promise in the end of ASOS was something like a "blank page" so he could make any name for himself that he wanted. He wanted honor in his life. In AFFC the way he treats Riverrun is his adjusting to this new style of life, because before he was a daring prick who pissed everyone off. Now he has to be an honorable one. I felt like the second siege he had lifted didn't progress this part of his character at all. He just seemed like bitter old Jaime, not someone who was trying to reshape their destiny from Kingslayer. Of course that's just how I read his final statements in ASOS. I want him to become honorable and good, I want him to learn to fight left handed, and when we like him I suppose I want my heart ripped out when he dies.

I'm not getting the sense that's the direction he's going in. Of course throwing Cersei's letter in the fire earned him a lot of good will, so maybe I'll cool off on his ADWD whining. He is definitely a favorite point of view since ASOS, every time I see his name I'm always excited to read on.

[IheartTesla]

I love Moby, and love big sprawling digressive 19th century novels in general. But ADWD is the fifth novel in an ongoing series, so I'm not at all sure that the comparison here makes any sense given those radically different contexts and purposes and etc.

Personally, my own opinion of these sprawling novels is that the authors were a bit self indulgent in their verbosity, and we readers and the editors allow for it simply because we enjoy the writing as a whole. I feel the same way about Martin, I like his writing style enough that I would read stuff that doesnt seem to have a bearing on the storyline as a whole.

There is a nice explanation of this in the introduction of my copy of Les Miserables:

Reading Les Miserables today, nobody would deny that Victor Hugo's prodigious flow of words occasionally produces moments of excess, when we might wish he had shown more restraint.......The sound solution is to honor the author's wishes. If the heightened rhetoric of elation and despair occasionally strains our patience and credulence, the quiet perception on the next page generally restores it.

You have to switch around the adjectives a bit, but I am willing to allow Martin this latitude, which I would not allow for someone like Jordan or Erikson, say.

[Raksha the Demon]

I found Brienne's sudden appearance, after the horrifying cliffhanger in AFFC, quite underwhelming. And I agree about how graphic GRRM can get; I found detailed descriptions of urination/excretion to be unnecessary as well as unpleasant, especially in so large a book, where there is so much else of interest to write about.

Frankly, I didn't care where Euron went. Isn't he back at Pyke or wherever the Greyjoys hold court in between viking reaving expeditions. One plundering, murdering Greyjoy was enough to follow without bringing in Big Badass Brother too. (can't wait until Victarion gets dragon-toasted, or meets a tsunami)

There was a lot to like about ADWD, but it needed trimming. I fear that GRRM has unleashed too many plot threads and viewpoints to ever finish this saga in seven books. Unless he plans on killing off Dany before she ever returns to Westeros.

[L’Age d’or]

You have to switch around the adjectives a bit, but I am willing to allow Joseph Conrad and the like this latitude, which I would not allow for someone like any fantasy writer, say.

Fixed it for you. No hard feelings eh? :grouphug:

[Kaitscralt]

I am having trouble wrapping my head around people comparing ADWD to Moby Dick and Les Mis'.

Funny stuff.

[IheartTesla]

Oh FFS. I am comparing my preference for Martin's digressions as similar to my preference for those 19th century writers.

If you found it funny, more power to you. I guess there could be multiple interpretations of posts as easily as books, and who is to say your interpretation isnt as valid as anyone elses -_-

[tybeechris]

I found that if I left my baggage behind and considered that I was warned in advance this would followed by two books to resolve the story line and that I might have to wait interminably, I enjoyed ADWD very much. I feel some judicious editing would have improved Dany's chapters but it was much better once I decided to just enjoy the ride instead of focusing on the destination.

This is all bittersweet as George and I are the same age and I sure would love to know the ending before we both leave this mortal plain.

[malarky1231]

The pacing GRRM initiated for the Griff chapters was so unexpected, it seemed like i was reading a different book about an alternate reality in Westeros were people's every movement didnt have to be detailed.

If more povs were like this, the series would be finished by now. I enjoyed the descriptions, but if this costs us plot movement I'm more than happy to have less povs and brief descriptions of what happened between povs. I'm regretting that Martin didn't implement the five year time gap. It would've solved a lot of the pacing and made a better sequel.

[AcuWill]

This book reminded me of books 7-9 (iirc)in the Wheel of Time where Robert Jordan had gotten so many plot themes going, that he simply had to devote endless chapters to nothing happening and descriptive settings. Also, it is clear in those books also that the author had a "difficult time" writing them, although in Jordan's case, they were written well faster than his previous ones and GRRM simply couldn't write.

Dany's wallowing in Mareen reminds me so much of Elayne's storyline in the WOT, where nothing happens but trying to secure a city and endless random nobles to deal with and nothing happening and enemies at the gates and intrugue at the enemies but wait are they frenemies oh Heroine is in grave danger cliff hanger. Sigh.

This book left me not liking any characters, except Jon (who might be dead or might not be), wishing for Dany to just do something already, even if it's dying, wondering wtf is the point of the dragons, and wondering if GRRM has lost all of his writing pizazz that got me into the first books in the first place, although at this point, it doesn't matter, because I simply want to know what happens.

[Holymoly]

Having finally waded through this last installment I too feel I have to voice my disappointment in the direction the story is going. The first book was fantastic, a very enjoyable read. As the series has progressed however the story seems to be bogging down ever more and the reading experience has been affected accordingly, as far as I'm concered anyway. I'm really not surprised that Martin has had problems writing the last couple of books, if it's become an effort to read then that surely reflects the suggestion that it has become a chore to write rather than the joy he will have set out with. In my opinion we have already had the best of the tale. What remains is a scrappy, disjointed tying-up of loose ends written in a repetitive style read by many just so that they can say they have read the entire story.

I think GRRM has lost his love of the story and, as a result, so too have I.

[Rex]

The pacing GRRM initiated for the Griff chapters was so unexpected, it seemed like i was reading a different book about an alternate reality in Westeros were people's every movement didnt have to be detailed.

If more povs were like this, the series would be finished by now. I enjoyed the descriptions, but if this costs us plot movement I'm more than happy to have less povs and brief descriptions of what happened between povs. I'm regretting that Martin didn't implement the five year time gap. It would've solved a lot of the pacing and made a better sequel.

I think Martin should actually go back and re-write A Game of Thrones, adding several chapters to Catelyn's journey to King's Landing as well as about five more chapters of Tyrion's travels up to the Wall and to the Inn.

[Lannes]

I just finished last night and I'm still putting all my thoughts in order, but there is one point that I can comment on loud and clear- The travelogues need to be seriously reigned in. I don't know if it's a product of the 5 Year Gap or the Mereenese Knot or just good old fashioned padding, but the story is not being served by the volume of them one bit.

I don't know. I loved parts of this book (Reek/Theon chapters were masterful!), but the fact that the end of ASOS left Dany deciding to stay in Mereen for a while and the end of ADWD has Dany standing beside Drogon somewhere not too far from Mereen was just disapointing to me. All I could think about when I finished was, "We've got POV's and plots moving all over the place- a veritable Master juggler's performance....and Dany just sits and sits and sits.....

[Banner of Black and Gold]

I enjoyed the book. Far more than AFFC, but obviously less than e.g. ASOS. The fact that I finished reading a 1000 page book in 10 days, despite a ton of other things to do, proves that I enjoyed every page of it (I generally don't read books that fast, but I know a lot of people here read it in less than half the time it took me).

Having said that, as much as I enjoy all the extra useless padding, the bloated descriptions and nuggets of history, I do wish the plot would move faster, if for no other reason simply because I don't want to be 50 before the story is finally told, or (more realistically) I don't want it to remain unfinished.

[Mr Crannogman]

that's ridiculous. I felt just as riveted reading this book as any of the others. It was great, I don't get all the complaints- I think most people just want to carry on complaining after complaining for so long about the book taking so long. If it's so hard to read, DON'T READ IT! Seems simple to me.

[A Song Of Vice And Ire]

I imagine a lot of things seem simple to you.

[Mr Crannogman]

i'll address the issue like an adult instead of attacking the person like an insecure child.

this is my perspective (doesn't have to be yours):

I read the first six books of The Wheel of Time, and gave up half way through the sixth because it wasn't fun anymore.

this is fantasy fiction-the reason we read it is because it is fun. when it ceases to be fun, shouldn't we cease to read it? if that's so, then the only reason someone continues to read something they dislike is to complain about it, which seems silly to me.

If you read something just to complain about it, there is very little chance of changing your opinion.

Due to the long wait, and the negative attitudes that resulted, many people judged the book based on the length of time it took to write, and that (IMO) is unfair.

Part of the problem may have been expectations. Some people had it in their mind what it would take to make the book "good" and that didn't happen, so to them, the book isn't good. If that is the case, don't read anymore of this series because i don't think the story will ever go in the direction people expect- that's why it became popular in the first place.

I honestly think that the majority of readers enjoyed the book. Those that did not are a very vocal minority, so I thought I would speak up for those whose voice isn't being heard in proportion on these threads.

Loved the book! I appreciate it for what it is, instead of disliking it for what it is not.