[ADwD Spoilers] The Hooded Man at Winterfell

[tearloch]

Am I the only one thinking that the killings are done by the ghosts of the dead Starks?

Its possible, but too fantasy for this series...plus, there has been not foreshadow of actual ghosts, and what purpose would they serve?

[Yakman]

No, this is misremembered from AFFC. All that Jaime tells the Blackfish in answer to the question:

"Yet I do not see the girls. Where are they?" is "I do not have them". Which can imply all manner of things.

Nor did the Blackfish only meet Jaime to talk about the girls because the dialogue then goes on for a couple more pages.

Your first basic problem with any Blackfish theory is that when we leave him in AFFC he does know anything about 'Arya' and her whereabouts. That straight away leads to a problem with time, then to getting to and into Winterfell and finally your are left with the problem that the mountain has laboured and brought forth a mouse - ie he finds out, goes all that way, gets in, risks his life and does nothing significant.

Then again, the Blackfish, when he meets Jaime, has been holed up in Riverrun, with limited information from the outside world since the Red Wedding.

Going outside the walls, he will almost certainly hear of Ramsay's betrothal to Arya, and Roose's appointment as Warden of the North. That information is going to be common knowledge.

[Raven Queen]

Could anyone refresh my memory on Theon's blackouts? Perhaps I missed it entirely; where is it stated or implied that Theon has them?

I do think Thoen is the killer of the Walder kid; but I don't subscribe to the idea of the Hooded Man being Theon-- We SEE Theon's personality split already in his constant Reek/Theon struggle. His identity crisis is already spelled out for us and manifests itself-- having Theon also see a version of himself is just unnecessary and doesn't really fit in with the tone of the struggle as GRRM details it, and Theon's ultimate rediscovery of his identity.

[cern]

I'm not sure about the Theon-HM theory, I like the concept but from a plot point of view I'm not really sure what the point of it would be. I mean we're already well aware of the fractious nature of Theon's mind from his interactions with Ramsay, unless GRRM is intending a continuing purpose for the "HM" part of Theon's personality in the tWoW?

[gonzoaster11]

Am I the only one thinking that the killings are done by the ghosts of the dead Starks?

Its possible, but too fantasy for this series...plus, there has been not foreshadow of actual ghosts, and what purpose would they serve?

Oh but there has. Maybe not ghosts per se, but certainly spirits. During GRRM's descriptions of Stark burial customs, he mentions the laying of swords across statues of past Kings/Lords in order to keep their spirits at rest. We also know that warging is strong in the Stark family, and wargs can live on after death as a part of their animals. I could accept that when Bran and company took swords from the crypts, they released the spirits of several Starks, which warged into some animal (or potentially a person, such as the Hooded Man), who then murdered Walder.

[Moonbloodraven]

I keep reading that there's, "...not much evidence" to the Two-Face Theon theory, but i fail to see a competing theory with more evidence pointing to it rather than Theon, circumstantial or not.

Theon's character arc is obviously heading towards redemption. He's been having the internal struggle for a while now over his Stark betrayal, and the realization that he was truly a Stark all along. Martin has also been setting up the personality struggle between Reek/Theon since Reek I. I just don't see it as too much of a stretch to think Theon the the "ghost". I mean, he's even having blackouts. come on, what other reason would such a plot device serve Theon's story for? well, setting him up as the "ghost" seems fairly logical to me.

congrats to whoever it was that came up with this theory. it could be quite the catch if it is to be proved correct.

[DoomPancakes]

Are there any missing ironborn? Euron should still be on the throne, but he could've sent someone up that way to cause problems in the North, or one of the Ironborns from Asha's crew. Less likely than Blackfish, Benjen, or Durden Theon, but just stirring the pot a bit.

[Happy Ent]

Could anyone refresh my memory on Theon's blackouts? Perhaps I missed it entirely; where is it stated or implied that Theon has them?

From the Winterfell murder mystery thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53845-adwd-spoilers-winterfell-murder-mysteries/page__st__80

As the garrison broke it's fast on stale bread fried in bacon grease (the lords and knights ate the bacon), the talk along the benches was of little but the corpse.

"Stannis has friends inside the castle." Theon heard one serjeant mutter. He was an old Tallheart man, three trees sewn on his ragged surcoat. The watch had just changed. Men were coming in from the cold, stomping their feet to knock the snow off their boots and breeches as the midday meal was served-blood sausage, leeks, and brown bread still warm from the oven.

It goes from breakfast to midday meal between “corpse” and “Stannis”.

The first boarder to spot it was Ser Bullitin The Board, as far as I know.

[Lummel]

... the Blackfish, ... will almost certainly hear of Ramsay's betrothal to Arya, and Roose's appointment as Warden of the North. That information is going to be common knowledge.

Almost certainly? Maybe but it depends on who he talks to and who he gets to meet (dangerous now that he is a rebel). There is no 'OK!' magazine or rolling TV news, its all going to be word of mouth we have to be quite particular about the kinds of people that might know or how long it might take for word to spread. Of course one can assume that escaping from Riverrun the Blackfish immediately meets somebody who gives him a massive infodump, a horse, dry clothes and a bag of food, but you still have the problem of motivation and then the mountain giving birth to a mouse - it's making assumptions for very little plot impact.

I keep reading that there's, "...not much evidence" to the Two-Face Theon theory, but i fail to see a competing theory with more evidence pointing to it rather than Theon, circumstantial or not. Theon's character arc is obviously heading towards redemption. He's been having the internal struggle for a while now over his Stark betrayal, and the realization that he was truly a Stark all along. Martin has also been setting up the personality struggle between Reek/Theon since Reek I. I just don't see it as too much of a stretch to think Theon the the "ghost". I mean, he's even having blackouts. come on, what other reason would such a plot device serve Theon's story for? well, setting him up as the "ghost" seems fairly logical to me. congrats to whoever it was that came up with this theory. it could be quite the catch if it is to be proved correct.

The other thing that I like is that it is a parallel to the situation in ACOK with Winterfell occupied, a Prince in Winterfell (by a curious co-incidence one of the chapter titles too) and his his relationship with Reek and a set of odd murders.

I don't know 'Fight Club' but it does seem to pick up on the old doppelganger tradition as in 'Dr Jekell and Mr Hyde' and others going back further.

[fassreiter]

I think the Reek/Theon-split has been overemphasized. It's not like he is two different people, or even two different identities. He knows all the time that he is Theon. But he also knows he must not show that knowledge to others, because Ramsay wants him to be Reek. This is made obvious by the many shocks and fears he has when someone (including himself) mentions his life before his captivity, because then it gets dangerous. It's not like he has been Reek all along and slowly transforms back into Theon. When the Frey brats come to get him out of his cell, he can't even remember the name 'Reek', and panicks. From then on he constantly does those little creepy rhymes not because he IS Reek, but because he needs to remember the name and the position that comes with it. When Ramsay asks him if he would like to be a prince again, he very clearly distinguishes between the options of Theon and Reek and comes to the conclusion that it's a trap. The Reek-persona seems more like the one he shows to other people as a part of his protection strategy, and of course he tries to convince himself that he is, in fact, this person now. Because he knows Ramsay can see right through him, and becoming Reek for real would therefore be a protection. But it doesn't work. He is 'Theon trying to be Reek' all the time. I don't think he is crazy, just extremely scared. When the chapter was called Theon again, it was because he had finally found enough courage to stand up for his true name again in the open, not just in secret.

I also believe the blackout was just a tiny mistake or unclear writing by GRRM. It's not likely Theon killed any people, and it's not likely he has encountered himself as the hooded guy.

By the way, I found the way Gollum was shown as a clinical case of a split personality by Peter Jackson a serious flaw in the LOTR. The books never give any hint that Smeagol doesn't know what he is doing, or that he has a bad personality who does all the evil acts against his will. He very clearly uses the Gollum persona as a way to legitimize his actions, but this persona is nevertheless an integral part of him, not a split. It's a cheap way to evoke pity by having him appear as a good guy trapped in a body with a bad one. Bilbo did a good deed to let him live out of pity even if, or even because, he was a sad, bad guy, and doing so saved all their asses when Frodo went down the Gollum way himself in the end.

So please, GRRM, let's not have split personalities! We can deal with grey characters.

And also I still want the Blackfish to be the hooded guy.

[Ser Areo Hoteh]

Evidence in my eyes for and against Theon being the HM

For:

The conversation they have seems surreal, like an internal struggle, the "Ramsay is not done with me" - "I leave you to him" thing, kinda suggests that. The Reek half still isn't strong enough to rebel against Ramsay yet so the Theon side stays down.

It doesn't need to be a real person, noone else saw him or the interaction; if we overheard a conversation of some guards or something saying "i saw some hooded dude wandering around" then maybe but him appearing out of the stormstorm for a 30 second conversation then vanishing again makes me think hallucination.

In terms of it being anyone else, with the information we have I dont know who else it could be beyond speculation. Sure the BWB know Arya and have good intel so they could intend to help but I don't see what actual EVIDENCE we have for that. As for Brynden the other contender, imo, after escaping he would head to the Vale where I think he will show up next in Sansa's POV, we know the Vale lords are ganging up on Baelish, and Brynden could rally them and help/save Sansa. And if either of these cases were true, yeah they may know of Theons deeds but unless they have been hanging around for a long time how would they recognise Theon with his new old man look and so easily in a snowstorm.

In my eyes the hooded man is Theon-Theon while the POV is Reek-Theon and HM calls him Turncloack/kinslayer which is what the Reek part of him is in reality, it is the assumed persona. He in reality isnt these things, but this new person, Reek, the subservent weak cripple is. Its like the original cocky, arrogant Theon is looking down at what he has become in digust and asking how this miserable self is still alive.

Also theres no real mention of the hooded man past that, which makes me think it wasnt a real event, just a thought/hallucination. He never mentions it to the girls during their whole ordeal and it doesnt come up in the inner monologue/narrative either.

Against:

Pffff...well it could be anyone, dudes got a hood on

[tearloch]

Some thoughts on Theon Durden theory:

Did Theon ever contemplate suicide in any of his chapters? I bring that up because if the hooded man was Theon, then the "I should kill you where you stand" comment could be related to suicidal thoughts.

Also, if Theon is really on the verge of escaping, then why the "Then I shall leave you to him [Ramsay]" comment? Maybe its saying Theon is not strong enough to take his own life, and Ramsay will be the death of him?

I do find the willingness to remove his glove in front of this stranger odd, given Theon's unwillingness to admit to any of the horrific things that Ramsay has done to him to anyone else.

I just don't see the connection to the interaction with the HM and Theon relating to the actions that Theon took after their meeting...

I still support Blackfish, aka Ser Awesomeness, being the Hooded Man.

[Miriel]

Pffff...well it could be anyone, dudes got a hood on

Does he? It is not clear he is wearing the hood: "Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him."

Maybe he is wearing the hood up to obscure his face, but maybe not. It is just not made clear in the text. I do find it significant that the HM is striding in the 'opposite direction' than Theon/Reek.

Did Theon wear a hooded cape when he was the Prince of Winterfell?

I do find the willingness to remove his glove in front of this stranger odd, given Theon's unwillingness to admit to any of the horrific things that Ramsay has done to him to anyone else.

Right, immediately after the scene with Hooded man, he is horrified to remove the gloves w/ Lady Dustin and Roose. It terrifies him. Yet he easily removes them for HM.

And also, "oddly, he was not afraid" even though he thinks this may be the killer.

I think that is pretty strongly in favor of it being Theon himself.

[Theo1]

I am moving toward the Theon is the HM based on these posts. There is something interesting about an internal contemplation of suicide (the HM comment about killing him) which is one manifestation of guilt. But, the other manifestation of guilt in retort is that Theon still has some suffering to do in repentence for his crimes.

It would be cool if it were the Blackfish, but I think the BF has to be focused on the riverlands (getting back at lanisters and freys, his duty to protect Rob's queen, the Bw/outB), and Riverrun still in play (Tom O'Seven and Edmure had time alone, Tom is in Riverrun, and Edmure and the BF had time to discuss next steps to reclaiming Riverun).

[Aluminum Link]

Did Theon ever contemplate suicide in any of his chapters? I bring that up because if the hooded man was Theon, then the "I should kill you where you stand" comment could be related to suicidal thoughts.

There is something interesting about an internal contemplation of suicide (the HM comment about killing him) which is one manifestation of guilt.

Don't have the book in front of me, but I don't think the hooded man ever says anything about killing Theon. He only asks him "How is it you still breathe?". So this suicide stuff makes no sense.

[Theo1]

I took that as "should I still be breathing?" as a sort of internal dialogue. Do I deserve to be alive?, in other words, and the answer may be, "yes, because I have more pain to suffer." But, fair enough on the suicide thing, maybe not that explicit. I think the overall point is still a valid consideration though.

[tearloch]

Here is the passage from the book [copied from a previous post a while back...so I did not verify it...but it sounds right]:

QUOTE:

Outside the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. He found himself alone in a white wilderness, walls of snow looming up to either side of him chest high. When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace.

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." "I'm not. I never...I was ironborn." "False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?" "The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsey is not done with me.The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

Comments:

So you are right, he doesn't say anything about killing him. But I do find the wording interesting, and a possible internal dialogue taking place.

"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer" Both are how he has been conveyed by all those around him. This being the image forced into his mind of Theon.

"I was ironborn" Isn't he still ironborn? Again, it goes back to who Theon was....internal dialogue of what am I now?

"False is all you were" again, back to the past tense...

"How is it you still breathe?" Questioning his existance...his purpose.

"The gods are not done with me yet." "Lord Ramsay is not done with me yet." laughing "I leave you to him, then" perhaps Theon realizing his destiny, or purpose is indeed in Ramsay's hand....or his bed...

I guess I can see the "internal dialogue" notion in this...Perhaps the moment that Theon fully embraces who he was, and who he needs to be.

But I still love the notion of it being Blackfish (I will never back off that desire), and the thoughts of it being Syrio (however unlikely) are also fun to think about.

[Miriel]

I think the HM represents the underlying Theon personality. His personality buried under the Reek awfulness. The HM is striding in the opposite direction of Reek/Theon. He's going where Reek wants to go but cannot. He has scorn and contempt for what Reek/Theon has become. He questions even his very right to be alive. He questions whether Reek/Theon can be anything other than someone for Ramsay to torment. The buried deep Theon then strides off, leaving Reek/Theon to Ramsay's torment.

But then, when Bran in the weirwood recognizes Theon and says his name, the real Theon comes to the fore, (along w/ the great coincidence of Mance and the spear wives giving him a chance for action). The belief that the Old Gods (actually Bran, but whatever) recognize him, and call him Theon and NOT Reek, strengthens him and allow him to begin his redemption arc.

(Done now with my psychology attempt of the day.)

[tearloch]

Miriel...I buy that theory.

[Starky Smurf]

I can just see GRRM reading this thread and muttering to himself "what the hell are they talking about?!?! Theon's split personality?!?!? THE BLACKFISH?!?!?! What do i have to do, tattoo the words "I AM NED STARK" across the Hooded Man's forehead for these INSANE @#*&*! fans to figure it out????".....

...or something equally mindblowing....LOL