[ADwD Spoilers] The Hooded Man at Winterfell

[Alaric Storm]

There's speculation in another thread that perhaps this man Theon meets, striding confidently in the opposite direction like a reflection, is in fact a split personality of Theon.

omfg that is awesome with shivers in the spine. a total Ezio/Altair in the AC:R trailer. it explains why Theon suddenly grew a backbone and bounced the fuck out with Jeyne. and it can be backed up if it is really the Winterfell ghosts doing most of the killings.

[CStrength]

Has anyone thought of Robett Glover?

He was in White Harbor, sorta-sneaking around recruiting to overthrow the Boltons.

Then he ended up taking the recently deceased Davos to Mr. Big (Manderly).

But he was never mentioned during the Wedding Feast, or having any presence at Winterfell.

I think he WAS there, doing the dirty work for Mr. Big. But most of the accidents/killings that occurred in the Ghost of Winterfell chapter were the work of Abel and his sweet sisters.

I think Robett Glover took out that last Frey boy (little or Big Walder? I forget which one got it)

[modehead]

Re: the Theon's split personality disorder.

I don't buy it. Martin's narrators have always been reliable. Throwing in a narrator whose losing his shit doesn't make sense. While we see the world from his narrators perspectives, there's never a doubt that the narrator is delusional. It just introduces a new writing technique too far into the plot, imo.

[The King's Foot]

I agree that mirror-Theon is most likely as of the end of Dance as there is no one else really plausible. Either it's Theon, or we're not meant to be able to figure it out. Or there's nothing really to figure out - the hooded man was some random Bolton/Frey ally having a momentary encounter with Theon.

The "kinslayer" term is what stops me from really believing it's Theon. No matter how effed up he is, he knows in no uncertain terms that he didn't actually kill Bran and Rickon. So some splinter Tyler Durden version of himself isn't going to pick at mental scabs that aren't really there. He'd know exactly the real emotional/spiritual scars to go after. Theon's messed up for the following reasons:

1) He's been tortured like all get-out. Malnourished, semi-crippled, possible castrated, and my God flaying sounds like the worst pain I could imagine.

2) He has never had a "home" - he was taken from the Iron Islands and while he was relatively well-treated by the Starks he was always aware of his status as an outsider, no matter how much he wished Ned would treat him like a son.

3) He was basically rejected when he returned home to the II. Once again - no real home.

4) His actions resulted in the destruction of the place he wishes were his home - Winterfell.

But what he isn't tortured about is guilt over killing the boys since it didn't happen. So, if the "hooded man" were "Theon Durden" he definitely wouldn't try to hurt Theon by throwing "kinslayer" at him.

[lady crackhead]

Re: the Theon's split personality disorder.

I don't buy it. Martin's narrators have always been reliable. Throwing in a narrator whose losing his shit doesn't make sense. While we see the world from his narrators perspectives, there's never a doubt that the narrator is delusional. It just introduces a new writing technique too far into the plot, imo.

The progression from him having to remind himself to be Reek to when he's dropped the Reek & thinks fulling as Theon is too much of a solid progression to have to fit in this half-baked theory of split personalities or warging taking over his body , etc. Youre all reaching. Martin left holes in his story that you could drive tanks through ....& you are. If you (any of you) are right, why would you then call such paltry, lazy writing good? Assuming that your theory (whichever theory) is right, why wouldnt you expect from Martin something a tad more cohesive, rathere than leaving you to pull these ideas mostly from air?

Theon knows Robett Glover & would have recognized him.

EDITed to say modehead has the 2nd best avatar on this board.

[Tagganaro]

I find both the Theon split personality and especially the Master Luwin theories to be ridiculous lol. I guess it's a possibility, but I can't imagine George going in that direction.

I remember reading it and making note of it right away. It seemed as if the person definitely had a personal relationship with Theon/Starks, based on his language and tone.

I like the Harwin theory a lot. Blackfish I feel would be too well-known to hide in open sight among the Boltons. I feel like someone would definitely recognize him at some point.

Is everyone just assuming that the hooded man was the one who killed Little Walder? I guess it would make sense then that any of the theories would be a possibility- Everyone of the possible candidates has a reason to hate the Freys in general or Little Walder in particular.

[The Sword of Early Afternoon]

The "kinslayer" term is what stops me from really believing it's Theon. No matter how effed up he is, he knows in no uncertain terms that he didn't actually kill Bran and Rickon. So some splinter Tyler Durden version of himself isn't going to pick at mental scabs that aren't really there. He'd know exactly the real emotional/spiritual scars to go after. Theon's messed up for the following reasons:

1) He's been tortured like all get-out. Malnourished, semi-crippled, possible castrated, and my God flaying sounds like the worst pain I could imagine.

2) He has never had a "home" - he was taken from the Iron Islands and while he was relatively well-treated by the Starks he was always aware of his status as an outsider, no matter how much he wished Ned would treat him like a son.

3) He was basically rejected when he returned home to the II. Once again - no real home.

4) His actions resulted in the destruction of the place he wishes were his home - Winterfell.

But what he isn't tortured about is guilt over killing the boys since it didn't happen. So, if the "hooded man" were "Theon Durden" he definitely wouldn't try to hurt Theon by throwing "kinslayer" at him.

IMHO it seems at least 80% likely it was Theon seeing himself. He probably knows he's a kinslayer, even if B&R survived. (The kids he actually killed were pretty clearly his own, by the miller's wife, which he was starting to realize before pushing the thought from his mind. At least that's how I remember it reading in a Theon chapter, in ASoS must've been.) In any case, as far as he knows B&R are likely dead by now due to his actions. Plus, and probably most importantly, one of his public "names" is Kinslayer, regardless of it's accuracy. That's how he's now known in Winterfell, an important place in his heart.

[Lord Davos]

IMHO it seems at least 80% likely it was Theon seeing himself. He probably knows he's a kinslayer, even if B&R survived. (The kids he actually killed were pretty clearly his own, by the miller's wife, which he was starting to realize before pushing the thought from his mind. At least that's how I remember it reading in a Theon chapter, in ASoS must've been.) In any case, as far as he knows B&R are likely dead by now due to his actions. Plus, and probably most importantly, one of his public "names" is Kinslayer, regardless of it's accuracy. That's how he's now known in Winterfell, an important place in his heart.

I'm not trying to be rude, but please cite the passage that makes you think this. I cannot recall it whatsoever.

[Prince of Braavos]

I'm not trying to be rude, but please cite the passage that makes you think this. I cannot recall it whatsoever.

Agreed, especially because I'm pretty sure Theon didn't have any POV chapters in ASOS. I could be wrong, but I believe he was in the Bolton dungeons for all of ASOS; maybe it was towards the end of ACOK?

Is there any concrete reason it can't be the Blackfish? I mean, maybe more familiar with the VAle, but I don't see why he can be discounted so easily from this. He has the same relation in both situations (nephew in the Vale, niece in Winterfell), it seems like it would've been easier for him to just sneak into the Bolton/Frey army as they marched north, he's the kind of badass that could totally be sneaking around Winterfell without getting caught, and he's got plenty of reason to be taking revenge against the Freys.

Plus, if he departed for the Vale before Lysa's death he wouldn't be going to protect his nephew; he'd be going for asylum. On the other hand, if he left after Lysa's death, he'd be going to save his nephew. In either case his motives are null--once Lysa died, asylum wouldn't be possible because there's a Lannister loyalist (as he would see it) in charge, but Robert would be safe because he's Littlefinger's only way to hold on to the Vale.

So unless the Blackfish is going back to Riverrun, I vote he's already in Winterfell with the North lords.

[modehead]

The progression from him having to remind himself to be Reek to when he's dropped the Reek & thinks fulling as Theon is too much of a solid progression to have to fit in this half-baked theory of split personalities or warging taking over his body , etc. Youre all reaching. Martin left holes in his story that you could drive tanks through ....& you are. If you (any of you) are right, why would you then call such paltry, lazy writing good? Assuming that your theory (whichever theory) is right, why wouldnt you expect from Martin something a tad more cohesive, rathere than leaving you to pull these ideas mostly from air?

Theon knows Robett Glover & would have recognized him.

EDITed to say modehead has the 2nd best avatar on this board.

Thanks :-)

Either way, I don't think it was Glover, or any of the names flowing around here.

Imo, Martin won't introduce the literary technique of unreliable narrators at this point in aSoIaF. The narrative structure is inherent to the suspense of the plot. (For example, if Theon is crazy enough to be killing children when he thinks he's innocently wandering around, whose to say that Bran hasn't lost his shit and is just hanging out in the woods?) I don't think I'm articulating my argument enough, but I think the gist is clear.

I doubt Martin is going to change the rules of what the reader can tell is true and what is psychosis. Not at this point in the story.

[modehead]

Agreed, especially because I'm pretty sure Theon didn't have any POV chapters in ASOS. I could be wrong, but I believe he was in the Bolton dungeons for all of ASOS; maybe it was towards the end of ACOK?

Is there any concrete reason it can't be the Blackfish?

No, there isn't. And your arguments are plausible. But, there's still a lot of doubt.

Playing devil's advocate here, but it could just as easily be Syrio, right? It wouldn't be too flimsy of a stretch for Martin.

[Red Dirt]

Agreed, especially because I'm pretty sure Theon didn't have any POV chapters in ASOS. I could be wrong, but I believe he was in the Bolton dungeons for all of ASOS; maybe it was towards the end of ACOK?

Is there any concrete reason it can't be the Blackfish? I mean, maybe more familiar with the VAle, but I don't see why he can be discounted so easily from this. He has the same relation in both situations (nephew in the Vale, niece in Winterfell), it seems like it would've been easier for him to just sneak into the Bolton/Frey army as they marched north, he's the kind of badass that could totally be sneaking around Winterfell without getting caught, and he's got plenty of reason to be taking revenge against the Freys.

Plus, if he departed for the Vale before Lysa's death he wouldn't be going to protect his nephew; he'd be going for asylum. On the other hand, if he left after Lysa's death, he'd be going to save his nephew. In either case his motives are null--once Lysa died, asylum wouldn't be possible because there's a Lannister loyalist (as he would see it) in charge, but Robert would be safe because he's Littlefinger's only way to hold on to the Vale.

So unless the Blackfish is going back to Riverrun, I vote he's already in Winterfell with the North lords.

You are correct. No Theon in ASoS. In ACoK (Theon IV) he mentions that the brewer's wife was the first woman he had sex with, but I don't think there was any mention of relation's with the miller's wife.

[Tagganaro]

Is there any concrete reason it can't be the Blackfish? I mean, maybe more familiar with the VAle, but I don't see why he can be discounted so easily from this. He has the same relation in both situations (nephew in the Vale, niece in Winterfell), it seems like it would've been easier for him to just sneak into the Bolton/Frey army as they marched north, he's the kind of badass that could totally be sneaking around Winterfell without getting caught, and he's got plenty of reason to be taking revenge against the Freys.

Plus, if he departed for the Vale before Lysa's death he wouldn't be going to protect his nephew; he'd be going for asylum. On the other hand, if he left after Lysa's death, he'd be going to save his nephew. In either case his motives are null--once Lysa died, asylum wouldn't be possible because there's a Lannister loyalist (as he would see it) in charge, but Robert would be safe because he's Littlefinger's only way to hold on to the Vale.

So unless the Blackfish is going back to Riverrun, I vote he's already in Winterfell with the North lords.

I agree with the logic behind this, but again I can't imagine someone not recognizing the Blackfish. He was a big figure in Robb's army, serving with several of these same lords. Everything else makes sense to me, and I wouldn't rule it out at all. If anyone could hide in plain sight it would be the Blackfish I guess.

[Red Dirt]

No, there isn't. And your arguments are plausible. But, there's still a lot of doubt.

Playing devil's advocate here, but it could just as easily be Syrio, right? It wouldn't be too flimsy of a stretch for Martin.

Syrio seems like a stretch since he wouldn't have much incentive to go north, if he is even alive. Blackfish otoh is exactly the kind of person that would find his way north the kill the Boltons/Freys that were involved in the deaths of his family.

[Dragons Dancing]

Reek saw the hooded man before the murders were found. The actual text is:

Outside the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. He found himself alone in a white wilderness, walls of snow looming up to either side of him chest high. When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace.

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." "I'm not. I never...I was ironborn." "False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?" "The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsey is not done with me.The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

Their eyes only met briefly. Either they were standing three feet apart and the snow was obscuring their view or Theon didn't look him in the eyes but the once. I doubt that Theon as Reek was looking any men in the eye. Theon did not recognize him but he recognized Theon even with Theon's major change in appearance. He thought to kill Theon as his hand went to his dagger. Theon showed him his hand so that he would go no further and he did not.

This could even be someone who is at the wedding but that Theon has not met or does not know, one of the Manderly's or Umbers. It does not have to be someone that no one else knows is there. This person could have come in with the party but keeps to himself. It would have to be someone that would not raise suspicion with the other parties there. I am doubting that the stranger is from outside and I do not think it is Theon the schizoprenic. This would be too lame. I would disappointed in GRRM. I do think this person is important otherwise we would not have had this scene. I'm looking forward to finding out who he is.

[Dio Forel]

Look at the interaction between Theon and this hooded man. It is so reminiscent of Smeagle and his alter-ego in LOTR. The guy throwing out condescending titles to Theon, titles that Theon himself would think of himself as, the responses Theon gives like oh no no random hooded man in the snow. There is no doubt in my mind that it is Theon. Don't forget his unaccounted for blackouts.

What is the point of having a cloak and hood if you are going to walk out into the middle of wide open space, albeit snowy, for all who walk by to see? None, if it is in fact Theon losing it. Look at his conversations with himself slowly losing a grip on reality and even his own name.

[Dragons Dancing]

Clearly there is a contingent of fans who want Theon to be schizophrenic and others do not believe the evidence is compelling. After reading all of the ideas why it might be possible and re-reading the actual script, I am not convinced and in some way for me, if it were true, it cheapens his story for me. It would make me wonder what else in his story was false, like maybe he never talked to the weirwood, maybe he never went down to the crypts with Lady Dustin, maybe he didn't have some of his thoughts, it was simply his alter ego voice talking in his head.

If his being schizophrenic works for you fine, but not for me and I'm out of this thread. It's been interesting.

[Dio Forel]

Clearly there is a contingent of fans who want Theon to be schizophrenic and others do not believe the evidence is compelling. After reading all of the ideas why it might be possible and re-reading the actual script, I am not convinced and in some way for me, if it were true, it cheapens his story for me. It would make me wonder what else in his story was false, like maybe he never talked to the weirwood, maybe he never went down to the crypts with Lady Dustin, maybe he didn't have some of his thoughts, it was simply his alter ego voice talking in his head.

If his being schizophrenic works for you fine, but not for me and I'm out of this thread. It's been interesting.

Sounds good, all interesting topics serve to hold us over until the next book.

But no matter what happens, this is always all speculation. His demeanor and style of speaking differs from his real conversations with people and his conversations with himself. When Theon talks to himself there is always a specific tone and condescending atmosphere surrounding it. That tone/atmosphere is very evident in his convo with the 'Hooded Man'.

But again, this is all just opinion. I look forward to finding out the truth.... in a few years lol.

BTW, if several people agree with any perspective of a situation, that means GRRM did a very good job of writing this story. I love how there is the ability to have a forum like this because the writing is so abstract and in depth that it gives all factions their own beliefs to stick to.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

I remember reading it and making note of it right away. It seemed as if the person definitely had a personal relationship with Theon/Starks, based on his language and tone.

I like the Harwin theory a lot. Blackfish I feel would be too well-known to hide in open sight among the Boltons. I feel like someone would definitely recognize him at some point.

It seems to me that the use of the word "kinslayer" disqualifies anyone familiar with the Starks and Theon's wardship under Lord Eddard. Harwin knows Theon is no kin to the Starks and was never treated as such. The Blackfish would know that too.

But note that Mance Rayder's spearwife Rowan makes the same mistake. Maybe Mance bought more wildlings to Winterfell besides his spearwives - men who're posing as freeriders attached to the Manderly, Frey and Bolton forces. Theon may have encountered one.

Is everyone just assuming that the hooded man was the one who killed Little Walder? I guess it would make sense then that any of the theories would be a possibility- Everyone of the possible candidates has a reason to hate the Freys in general or Little Walder in particular.

I agree with the view that Big Walder killed Little Walder, for the reasons stated by others in other threads. Makes too much sense not to be true. Reek observes in the early chapters that while LW has become Ramsay's "best boy" and becomes more like him every day, BW doesn't imitate Ramsay's cruelty. I think it's likely that BW saw that his cousin was on his way to becoming as depraved as Ramsay under his tutelage and decided to end it before things went that far.

[The House of Dude]

I may be remembering incorrectly, but didn't several lords from Robb's army head north before the Red Wedding to meet with Reed and take Moat Cailin from behind not to be mentioned again?