[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Raksha the Demon]

Tyrion is a complicated man, perhaps one of the most emotionally tormented characters in ASoIaF. He has always demonstrated a craving for love and a considerable amount of pride. I think some of Tyrion's in-your-face contentiousness and pride comes from having been bullied and marginalized and disliked by Tywin from the day he was born; also the craving for love. He probably didn't get much love growing up in Casterly Rock; though there are indications that Kevan was kind to him. But Tyrion always loved and trusted Jaime because his big brother was kind to him and brought him toys and taught him to ride, etc. Jaime loved Tyrion; and Tyrion never forgot it.

If Tyrion had been a physically normal boy, and not hated by his father, I doubt very much that the tragedy of Tysha would have occurred. I believe he might have formed a friendship with her, perhaps took her as a mistress, but he would not have felt the need to marry her; and if he had kept her as a mistress, then Tywin probably would not have cared. I think Tyrion felt the need to marry Tysha and live with her because she loved him; and he was going to claim that source of love and hold on tight to it. Also, a pretty girl, in love with him, the despised little dwarf-lord; this would have been heady stuff to the young Tyrion.

I think that the incident with Tysha messed up Tyrion, probably permanently, in regard to love and marriage. Since then, Tyrion has only wanted to have sex with women who he could buy, women over whom he had complete control, women who were sure to inflate his pride and not humiliate him, women he would never feel like he should marry them. Tyrion has had to be the Giant of Lannister in the bedroom. (of course, probably most men want to feel like giants in the bedroom, LOL, but for Tyrion, I think he wants to feel it and hear some adulation from his paid bedmates)

Tyrion could have found (with Tywin's cooperation of course) a good wife years ago - I am certain that there would be, somewhere in Westeros, a maiden of decent character and looks who could have enjoyed being his wife. How many young girls of poor third-string vassal houses, or even young widows who had endured unhappy first marriages, and might actually regard Tyrion as a great catch, would there be in the Seven Kingdoms? Probably lots. Of course, there was the issue of Tywin; whose Lannister pride might have kept Tyrion from becoming betrothed to anyone but a woman from one of the great houses or their highest vassals, because, dwarf or no dwarf, Tyrion was his son. (Though who Tywin thought was going to inherit Casterly Rock, with Jaime in the Kingsguard and no other sons, I don't know; he's said that Tyrion never would. Maybe he planned on it going to Tommen, and then Joffrey was killed) But I can't help thinking that some young woman or girl could have been found for Tyrion to marry who might have had some disadvantages that kept her from being a marriage-market prize herself - i.e. poverty, being a fifth daughter in a not-too-wealthy house, having a scar or a club foot, and might have been not only willing to become his wife but come to the marriage with the idea of making it work. The trouble is, that even if such a girl could have been found for Tyrion and his father consented to the marriage, Tyrion's own pride might have been an obstacle. Because the adult Tyrion wants a pretty girl who loves him or appears to, whether as whore, mistress, or wife.

What's sad is that, I think, Tyrion wanted Sansa to be his wife in every way. I believe he was physically attracted to her; and he tried very hard to be considerate to her, kind to her, and even tried to gently seduce her on the wedding night. The problem was that, although Sansa tried to think of him as a bridegroom who could give her a decent sexual experience, she was filled with pity (which she recognized, and which she rather wisely saw as the death of desire) and revulsion for his body. (btw, that Septa of Sansa's seems to have tried to inject her pupil's then-storybook-addled head with at least a little realism in the very good advice that Sansa remembers on her wedding night, that there was something physically beautiful about every man; unfortunately, book-Tyrion was not Peter Dinklage, who has an attractive face) That was the elephant in the room. The other elephant in the room is that Tyrion is a Lannister, and his sister imprisoned Sansa's father, his nephew had Sansa's father executed, not to mention Joffrey's killing off every Stark bannerman and retainer he could find, down to poor Septa Mordane. And the Lannister family (admittedly after Sansa's marriage to Tyrion) had Sansa's mother and brother murdered. (though do we know if Sansa realizes that it was the Lannisters who pulled the strings at the Red Wedding; that it was not only Frey/Bolton treachery?) I am not sure that to 12-year-old captive Sansa, Tyrion could have been anything other than another of her jailers - a kindly one, a protective one, but still a jailer. She preferred him to marrying any other Lannister (I think he offered her the choice to wed a younger Lannister, i.e. Lancel) because she remembered him protecting her from Joffrey and being kind to her; and since her captivity, Sansa has never forgotten a kindness.

But, if Ned had not been executed by the Lannisters, if Sansa had not been their hostage; could she have found a way to be more than dutiful in the marriage bed with Tyrion Lannister? It could have happened, but with a lot of 'ifs'. First of all, the child Sansa would have had to have been raised with a bit more realism and less high expectations of Prince Charming as a bridegroom. The young Sansa Stark, as the older and quite pretty daughter of Lord Stark of Winterfell, had a right to expect a son of one of the great houses to be her bridegroom, but she should not have been allowed to latch on to the idea that she'd get a straight version of Loras Tyrell. On the other hand, we don't know, it could be that Septa Mordane did try to drum some realistic expectation into Sansa's head, but that, like her father, she believed very much in honor and chivalry, and good things happening to those who deserve it; and unlike Ned, Sansa hadn't had to endure a war to see that sometimes things didn't turn out the way they did in songs. (Sansa is very like Ned, in my opinion; she has a strong streak of compassion/kindness, has charisma, and a tendancy to want to believe in beauty and truth and honor etc., believe the best about people) Say, if House Stark had been left intact, and for some reason, a betrothal between the young Sansa and Tyrion was considered necessary by Ned, it could have worked. If they had let Sansa get to know Tyrion during a betrothal, with her marrying him at fifteen instead of at twelve, with Catelyn teaching Sansa, before she ever got a look at her bridegroom, that although Tyrion was not at all good-looking, he was known to be kind, intelligent, and quite a casanova in the bedroom and that this was also a matter of family honor, I think Sansa would have had quite a different mind-set on the wedding night; and, at least, for a time, been fairly happy in her marriage. Of course, a young Sansa who had never suffered as she did after Ned's execution in the real timeline might have been a lot more teenaged-girl-ditzy and arrogant in terms of being married to Tyrion; and eventually have fallen in love with some handsome knight, but the marriage with Sansa and Tyrion could have started out a lot better. I think that a small part of Sansa's wedding night unhappiness was that she was, practically up to the beginning of the ceremony, expecting Willas Tyrell as the bridegroom; and then learns that it's going to be Tyrion Lannister, freaks out, is told that she can be dragged to the marriage bed or walk on her own; and of course, Sansa being a lady and a daughter of a proud house, she is not going to be seen being dragged to her wedding. But there's no time for her to get used to the idea that she's going to have to make the best of an impending marriage to a dwarf.

Strangely enough, I think, had the whole Lannisters-killing-off-Starks-left-and-right thing hadn't happened, beginning with Joffrey executing Lannister retainers and Ned and Cersei having Mycah murdered, Arya might have made a better match for Tyrion than Sansa. Arya would not have cared nearly as much about Tyrion's looks, especially if she had had time to get to know him. She probably would have found him an enjoyable companion and they could have had a good sex life, because Arya was less into superficialties than preteen Sansa. Tyrion would have liked Arya, and found her a challenging prospect (he'd have had his hands full trying to keep Arya from insulting Cersei and Tywin I bet). And I think that Tyrion would have let Arya train with sword-masters and archers, etc. There are indications that Arya was going to grow up pretty, too. And Arya could have learned some self-control from Tyrion, if she was willing to. They at least would have started out better than even a non-captive Sansa would have. Though Arya had a lot of pride and a level of sheer ornery to match Tyrion's own, LOL.

[Alexia]

First of all, the child Sansa would have had to have been raised with a bit more realism and less high expectations of Prince Charming as a bridegroom. The young Sansa Stark, as the older and quite pretty daughter of Lord Stark of Winterfell, had a right to expect a son of one of the great houses to be her bridegroom, but she should not have been allowed to latch on to the idea that she'd get a straight version of Loras Tyrell. On the other hand, we don't know, it could be that Septa Mordane did try to drum some realistic expectation into Sansa's head,

I don't see how Sansa's expectations were at all unrealistic. It very much looks to me like Septa Mordane was making an effort to prepare Sansa for an eventual marriage to some stranger and Sansa went all giddy when she found out that the stranger was cute, and a Prince. The little crush on Loras was completely normal too. What I find interesting about Sansa is that she was very carefully bracing herself for the marriage to Willas. She refused to visualize him because she didn't want to get her hopes up about him being cute and she kept reminding herself that he might look like Mace Tyrell.

The only reason she latched onto the idea of a straight version of Loras Tyrell, or a Prince Charming, is because her family betrothed her to a handsome prince which sent her straight over the moon. But with the betrothal to Willas Tyrell, I had a very strong sense that she was falling back on the teachings of her mother and Septa Mordane and instead of wishing for attractiveness she just hoped that he would love her, and thinking about the sons she would have and the happy marriage she wanted (like her mother's). Even Catelyn was disappointed when she first had to marry Ned. So no, I don't think that she was raised with unrealistic expectations at all. The betrothal to Joffrey changed her expectations, is all.

[Raksha the Demon]

All of this is why I think the man is going to die. Jon and Daenerys seem to have a better chance of survival through the end, and Jon just got himself a Cesar-style stabbing. I tend to agree with whoever it is who said that it'll be all or nothing: Tyrion either dies or ends as the Lord of Casterly Rock. But I admit, I started giggling when he signed as Lord of Casterly Rock in blood. Hopefully our favorite twisted little monkey demon will start extracting blood from House Lannister in TWOW.

I don't even want him to meet Daenerys anymore. I want him to snatch up his sellsword army and invade the West (taking us all back to Westeros), and leave Daenerys and her crazy dragons to burn Mereen. I don't want to read a book of dragon-training, I want to find out what Tyrion is going to do to Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Jaime, and the rest of his kin.

I'm the poster who said that GRRM doesn't do things by halves and that Tyrion being his favorite character, Tyrion will get all or nothing, Lord of Casterly Rock or dead in the last book. I know that Tyrion seems darker, much more bitter in ADWD, but I do not want him to murder Tommen and Myrcella; if he does so, or directs it to be done, than he will have done much worse than murder Shae and Tywin. Those kids never did anything to Tyrion, and were always nice to him (unlike nasty Joffrey) and treated him as a beloved kinsman. I don't want to see him rape Cersei; rather see him just kill her and have done with it. Jaime, it seems to me, does not deserve to be killed by Tyrion; he lied about Tysha at Tywin's direction, but Jaime did not orchestrate her suffering, Tywin did. I do want Tyrion to become Lord of Casterly Rock, though...

Actually, I would enjoy seeing Tyrion become a dragon-trainer and dragon-tamer and dragon-rider. It would be something new that Tyrion has not tried, working with a huge animal who can incinerate him on a whim; and he has always been fascinated by dragons. We wouldn't need to see an entire book devoted to Tyrion - DragonTamer!, but 2-3 of chapters showing the training process (and other Tyrion-stuff), and some evolution, would be good reading. I want to see Tyrion ride a dragon; he'd love it, too; and I'm sure he'd design some very effective saddles. It would certainly be more interesting reading than watching Dany moon over Daario or agonize over Mereenese culture.

[Alexia]

I know that Tyrion seems darker, much more bitter in ADWD, but I do not want him to murder Tommen and Myrcella; if he does so, or directs it to be done, than he will have done much worse than murder Shae and Tywin. Those kids never did anything to Tyrion, and were always nice to him (unlike nasty Joffrey) and treated him as a beloved kinsman. I don't want to see him rape Cersei; rather see him just kill her and have done with it. Jaime, it seems to me, does not deserve to be killed by Tyrion; he lied about Tysha at Tywin's direction, but Jaime did not orchestrate her suffering, Tywin did. I do want Tyrion to become Lord of Casterly Rock, though...

Its not that I want to see him do anything to the kids (and I surely don't want him raping Cersei :sick:) but I thought it was interesting that he was planning to crown Myrcella in ASOS, knowing she would die because of it, just to hurt Cersei. I would like to see what he does with the children and to his other family members.

As for the dragons, I was hoping we would get some dragon training in ADWD and end the book with him on his way back to Westeros with Dany. Since we didn't...no, no, no. I don't really care about Daenerys or her storyline, and now I live in terror of her as queen of Westeros. I want to see her stay far away, and Tyrion reconnect with the characters he has so much emnity for in the next book. A dragon training storyline could easily chew up half the book and besides, if Daenerys returns to Westeros after all I don't believe it will happen until the last book. I'd kind of like Tyrion back creating havoc sooner.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't remember Tyrion planning to set Myrcella up to be killed just to hurt Cersei - was it something he actually planned, i.e. planned that Myrcella would die, or thought that there was a possibility but also that Myrcella would also have been likely to be safe. I don't remember Tyrion's specific thought processes, but if he knowingly set Myrcella on a course that he believed would definitely get her killed, just to hurt Cersei, than Tyrion is beyond help or respect. I thought he was just brokering the deal because it would help the Lannisters, help Tyrion, help bring peace to the realm, and keep Myrcella safe from her mother's nastiness, not end up killing the kid.

I do want to see Tyrion meet Dany and become useful to her, as an advisor and mentor. It would be entertaining; because they are both proud verging on arrogant, and Tyrion would have the mindset (he would not have Selmy's determination to be respectful and kind to Dany from long service to the Targaryens and his respect for Rhaegar) to tell Dany some brutal truths that she needs to hear. I don't know that Dany will eventually become Queen of Westeros; though; she might end up Lady of Dragonstone, who knows.

[Silverin]

I don't remember Tyrion planning to set Myrcella up to be killed just to hurt Cersei - was it something he actually planned, i.e. planned that Myrcella would die, or thought that there was a possibility but also that Myrcella would also have been likely to be safe. I don't remember Tyrion's specific thought processes, but if he knowingly set Myrcella on a course that he believed would definitely get her killed, just to hurt Cersei, than Tyrion is beyond help or respect. I thought he was just brokering the deal because it would help the Lannisters, help Tyrion, help bring peace to the realm, and keep Myrcella safe from her mother's nastiness, not end up killing the kid.

He thought that in ADwD. Lately I have really hard time to feel symphatethic towards him. I know he only thought about that but honestly even the fact that he actually though about it makes me feel disguisted with him, because of all the things he does recently (like the way he beheaved with the whore at etc....), I dont even pity him anymore. Before I though, poor Tyrion because he was born as a dwarf he had to endure this and that, but not anymore. There is a limit how much of your actions you can blame on upbringing and others. There are a lot of people who had horrible childhood, with horrible memories, yet they dont fall that low as him.

[Alexia]

In ASOS:

"A trip to Dorne might be very pleasant, now that I reflect on it.

"Plan on a lengthy visit." Prince Oberyn sipped his wine. "You and Doran have many matters of mutal interest to discuss. Music, trade, history, wine, the dwarf's penny...the laws of inheritance and succession. No doubt an uncle's council would be of benefit to Queen Myrcella in the trying times ahead."

If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful. "I believe I will have that cup of wine," said Tyrion. Queen Myrcella? It would have been more tempting if only he did have Sansa tucked away beneath his cloak. If she declared for Myrcella over Tommen, would the north follow? What the Red Viper was hinting at was treason. Could Tyrion truly take up arms against Tommen, against his own father? Cersei would spit blood. It might be worth it for that alone.

In ADWD:

"I have a niece in Sunspear, did I tell you? I could make rather a lot of mischief in Dorne with Myrcella. I could set my niece and nephew at war, wouldn't that be droll?"

"My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen."

Illyrio smiled as his serving men spooned out bowls of black cherries in sweet cream for them both. "What has this poor child done to you tht you would wish her dead?"

"Even a kinslayer is not required to slay all his kin," said Tyrion, wounded. "Queen her, I said. Not kill her."

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this."

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would ake my sister weep bitter tears at, least."

[Raksha the Demon]

He thought that in ADwD. Lately I have really hard time to feel symphatethic towards him. I know he only thought about that but honestly even the fact that he actually though about it makes me feel disguisted with him, because of all the things he does recently (like the way he beheaved with the whore at etc....), I dont even pity him anymore. Before I though, poor Tyrion because he was born as a dwarf he had to endure this and that, but not anymore. There is a limit how much of your actions you can blame on upbringing and others. There are a lot of people who had horrible childhood, with horrible memories, yet they dont fall that low as him.

I'll have to reread the Tyrion chapters in ADwD. I do remember him at least once mentioning a desire to rape Cersei, but couldn't tell whether it was Tyrion trying to shock people or Tyrion voicing his hatred for Cersei, or both; but I honestly don't remember him wishing harm to his innocent niece. Tyrion has darkened considerably as a character; I think his murdering Shae and Tywin was a mistake, not that Tywin didn't deserve it, but the deed has tremendous emotional repercussions for Tyrion himself; both in becoming a murderer and murdering the woman he had loved and his own father.

[littlebird_]

I would enjoy seeing Tyrion become a dragon-trainer and dragon-tamer and dragon-rider.

Maybe one of the dragons can tell him where whores go :P But yes I expect him to do all those things. I hope that his experiences with the dragons, with Penny, with Dany will soften him up a little and he is not so dark anymore but I think this has always been his journey, he had to face his issues and now that he has killed the two people that are epitomes of his issues; being a Lannister (Tywin) and being loved by a woman (Shae) he has to emotionally grow up and get over it as it were.

Tyrion like every other main protagonist is at his own crossroads and with all of them it relates to their identity, who they are and who they want to be and if they can retain their humanity or not during their journeys.

I suspect that some of our main characters will choose to loose their humanity and compassion and end up with the 'wrong' identity. I don't know, its hard to predict which ones will cross that line and which ones won't, I don't think Tyrion has crossed the line yet though, none of them have but any one of them might.

[Faint]

I don't know why everyone is so set on this silly Tyrion is a Targaryen theory. It ruins everything about Tywin and Tyrion's characters that is so fascinating. That would be a really dumb turn of events, IMO. Even worse than Jon somehow ascending to the throne based on Targaryen blood and that was is pretty gag-worthy.

Why is everybody so set on the theory? Well, primarily because GRRM keeps throwing wood onto the fire.

Not meaning the theory is true but it's either that or an intended red herring where the writer wants us to think it might be true. Otherwise, why bother with telling us that Tyrion dreams of dragons and then throw in Ser Barristan mentioning that Aerys had the hots for Joanna Lannister? Honestly, what function did that information serve beyond giving rise to the possibility that Tyrion might be a Targaryen?

And if anything, the theory is much more likely to be true after ADwD than it was before the book.

Meanwhile, you have Jon's crow screaming "Jon Snow" and "king." And then you have Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying. So yeah, the set up for these events, whatever may be said of their relative merit, is definitely there. Readers are not speculating out of thin air.

[Alexia]

Personally, I hope GRRM makes Jaime and Cersei secret Targaryens and Tyrion Tywin's sole heir. Not so much for any value in the whole hidden Targaryen cliche as for the entertainment that I would derive from the reaction on the board.

In favor:

Tyrion is said to be Tywin's true son, and Tywin writ small

Jaime and Cersei commit sibling incest

Cersei is insane and likes burning things

Aerys groped Joanna on the wedding night

In my theory, Tywin sent Joanna home after he found out about Aerys' having an affair with his wife. Alas that he never knew his golden twins were not really his.

In other news:

Ramsay Bolton is a secret Targaryen

Sansa Stark is a secret Targaryen

Edmure Tully is a secret Targaryen

Fat Walda Frey is a secret Targaryen

and

Stannis Baratheon is a secret Targaryen

[Faint]

There is some merit to thinking the theory might apply to Jaime and Cersei but Tyrion is the far more likely candidate for a variety of reasons, both with respect to timing and other matters. My only point is that the theory that Tyrion might be a Targaryen has good backing, which has become better as the series has gone on, and the speculation in that respect is not way off base -- if anything, it tends to go with the flow of evidence. I, personally, do not like the idea -- and have resisted it for some time on that account -- but the more I re-read the series, the more I imagine it's probably true. I'm probably 60-70% sure at this point.

[littlebird_]

Sansa Stark is a secret Targaryen

I knew it!!!! How are Tyrion and Sansa related is the real question? Are they siblings, cousins?

[littlespider]

In other news:

Ramsay Bolton is a secret Targaryen

Sansa Stark is a secret Targaryen

Edmure Tully is a secret Targaryen

Fat Walda Frey is a secret Targaryen

and

Stannis Baratheon is a secret Targaryen

Don't forget Hodor. He will sit the Iron Throne at the end of the series.

[Silverin]

I knew it!!!! How are Tyrion and Sansa related is the real question? Are they siblings, cousins?

Actually Sansa is Tyrion's daughter from Tysha, who was actually Lisa Tully. The reason he didnt recognise her, well because she became really unatractive, so his brain refused to see his true love in her. That is the reason why Lysa was so hostile towards him, it really hurt her that he didnt recognize her. After the incident she went to Winterfell to Cat, Cat was pregnant with Ned's daughter but she was stillborne. Since Lysa didnt wanted to raise her, and her husband would be suspicious since they didnt slept together for a while, she switched the babies. Cat of course never knew that Sansa is not her daughter.

Crackpot 2.

Sansa is actually the daughter of Lysa and Littlefinger (yuck).

And of course Littlefinger is a secret Targ.

[littlebird_]

Actually Sansa is Tyrion's daughter from Tysha, who was actually Lisa Tully. The reason he didnt recognise her, well because she became really unatractive, so his brain refused to see his true love in her. That is the reason why Lysa was so hostile towards him, it really hurt her that he didnt recognize her. After the incident she went to Winterfell to Cat, Cat was pregnant with Ned's daughter but she was stillborne. Since Lysa didnt wanted to raise her, and her husband would be suspicious since they didnt slept together for a while, she switched the babies. Cat of course never knew that Sansa is not her daughter.

Crackpot 2.

Sansa is actually the daughter of Lysa and Littlefinger (yuck).

And of course Littlefinger is a secret Targ.

lol the Lysa theory would also explain why Sansa has the Tully look, we're on to something I can tell :D

Sansa being Lf's actual daughter might also work, Lysa changes the babies and there you go. There is the problem of how all these are proven but maybe the Reeds know.

[Ser Hippie]

Don't forget Hodor. He will sit the Iron Throne at the end of the series.

Please.

We're talking crackpot theories here, not something already spoiled and known to be true.

As for the topic at hand, I don't see any real appeal in a Tyrion/Sansa marriage (unless it's a purely political thing) - they're very different people and, frankly, I don't think he ever would have been a good fit for Sansa. I like both characters on their own, but as a couple they just don't work for me, at all.

[Silverin]

lol the Lysa theory would also explain why Sansa has the Tully look, we're on to something I can tell :D

Sansa being Lf's actual daughter might also work, Lysa changes the babies and there you go. There is the problem of how all these are proven but maybe the Reeds know.

Yes there are e lot of possibilities. But the Reeds know it. They know everything.

Another one:

She is the daughter of Cat and Bloodraven... and Ned.

Here is the thing. After Ned come home from the war with a bastard Cat had a really hard time being the dutiful wife, and Ned being the honorable man he is didnt force her either. As Bloodraven was watching they whole life started to worry. Since if Ned and Cat dont do what married couples do, Bran wont be born, so he decided to take things in his own hands. He warged into Ned and seduced Cat. Since he was peeping for more than a hundred year he saw many "secret meetings" in the godswoods so he knew what were the most effective lines for quickly changing a wife's mind. He was a little selfish so he stayed in Ned for a little bit longer. After the incident Cat suddenly became really loving to Ned, and Ned wasnt suspicious he just thought the old gods heard his praying that Cat would warm up to him (which they of course did). And so Sansa was born, Ned and Cat became a loving couple and had a bunch of other children. Sansa being Bloodravens wargdaughter ties nicely into the Wargmaester Sanserion theories that is going on in an other thread. not to mention that it was implied that sansa is not really a wolf but a little bird (cough raven cough), and she probably will establish her own information networklike her daddy.

[rue721]

I think CR symbolizes everything he has been denied in life and by reclaiming that he gets the ultimate revenge (clearly killing Tywin wasn't enough). But also Tyrion has an interesting relationship with being a Lannister, he clearly isn't comfortable with everything his family represents but he is also a Lannister and a big part of his issues stem from never being accepted a Lannister. That's why I have problems with him suddenly not being a Lannister, it takes away one of his main issues in life and solves it for him rather than him dealing with it as a character. He wants to be Lord of Casterly Rock, he wants to be a Lannister, he probably also feels like he is the best of them and deserves it more than any of them and wants and needs to prove it desperately. More than anything he wants recognition.

I agree absolutely...I think maybe Tyrion is fundamentally *happy* he killed Tywin, and wants to believe that because he "defeated" the Lord of Casterly Rock, he should get Casterly Rock as his spoils (shudder). I know Tywin was a horrible person, and it might end up that it's best that he's dead (though best for who, I'm not sure yet), but it's chilling to me to think of someone murdering his father and then putting on his rings and eating off his table and having everyone call him the title they called the murdered man. What's best case scenario there? That Tyrion will just be another Tywin? *Everybody* was terrified of him, it's doubtful that *anybody* ever loved him, and nobody knows that better than the son who murdered him! But that's what Tyrion wants for himself?

On the other hand, when he was signing those papers, he was laughing like it was all a big farce. I don’t know how to read it. I guess he was laughing at himself? And then he wrote out the Lord title in his own blood, b/c he got it through blood?

he is already going to have to try really hard to be trusted because he is a Lannister but now he is a Lannister married to a Stark. Perhaps he really just shouldn't mention the marriage at all but he will have to give an opinion on the Starks sooner or later.

Personally, I would mention it ASAP. Tyrion's value to Dany will start out fairly high (when he still has lots of new info to share), then dip (once she feels she knows enough), then hopefully rise again (as he proves he's useful as an adviser/employee generally). I think Tyrion would be best off giving Dany the worst information about himself while his value is highest -- which is basically when he first arrives and hasn't told her much else. If he waits until she's not sure how useful he is otherwise (when he's told her as much as she feels she needs to know but hasn't yet proven himself as an employee) she could just use that information as an excuse to kill him. If she finds out from someone else, she might also wonder if he's trying to betray her and kept everything secret for a reason. I think the risks are too high for keeping that information secret long. Though, I mean, if he goes to see her and she's meanwhile having a rant about tearing every Stark limb from limb and throwing in their wives and husbands for good measure, or something, yeah, he should probably wait. :P.

I think badmothing Sansa would backfire in his case. For starters Tyrion has far worse repatuation than Sansa. Kingslayer, kinslayer, he killed Shae, I think it is well known she was his whore even before and during his marriage, allied with the Mountain Clan's (he wasn't popular for that), and despite the fact that using wildfire winned them the battle against Stannis, during the process some of the friendly troops were perished in it as well, he isn't remembered as the hero for it either, but more like as some relly wicked mad genius.

Totally agree. When you show up looking like a demon and on account of a horrifying murder rap, maybe you should lay off on stories that basically boil down to: that 12-year-old is a BITCH!

I think even jaime has a better image in Westeros than him.

I honestly can't imagine who might have a worse rep in Westeros than Tyrion does. That's where I actually think it *does* suck for him that he's ugly. He can't play off and spin things that well because everyone looks at him and looks at whatever horrible thing he might have done and there's no dissonance there -- of course that ugly man did that ugly thing. I don't know how he can fix his image problem...if he comes flying in on a dragon I'm sure everyone would decide that he's Satan himself!

But I mean, he's got to at least *try* to fix his image problem or come up with some sort of plan, because that's the only way he can do his creepy Lord of Casterly Rock farce. No idea what plan that could be, though.

If Aegon marries Sansa, he throws away his last hope (a fool's hope at best) at ultimate victory.

Well, just in general, Aegon needs to wait until he's at the height of his power to get a wife. If he picks one up before them, it could ultimately limit him. I don't think he should try to create some new kind of alliance with Dany, because, as Tyrion said, that would be redundant -- she'll come to save him because of their family relationship anyway, so why throw away marriage prospects for now extra gain? And, in terms of Aegon and Dany as entering into any kind of alliance – after conquering wherever they can/want to with Dany's dragons, do you really think Dany would just sit there and let Aegon rule? She'd take over. She's the one with the dragons, the one with more experience ruling, and she's not going to ever want anyone else to be in charge of her ever again (which she proved was important to her w/r/t her desire to free the slaves and keep them free).

I would think Aegon's best bet would be:

1. conquer what he can

2. get Dany to come help him with the rest, in the name of their family.

3. once everything Aegon needs the dragons for is done, kill Dany and take control of all her stuff (including the dragons).

4. marry a girl with lots of land to claim and who will be obedient to him. Sansa could be that girl, but if the North is an utter mess or Rickon is perfectly safe and happy or Aegon needs firmer ties with some other part of the 7 Kingdoms or a stronger political ally in King's Landing or whatever, it could end up being any number of girls. Since we don't know the specifics of what Aegon's position will be, I think it's impossible to guess who would be most useful to him. Though it ultimately could very well be Sansa, imo.

I don't want to read a book of dragon-training, I want to find out what Tyrion is going to do to Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Jaime, and the rest of his kin.

Me, too. I know it's ridiculous, since this is a fantasy series, but honestly, if GRRM would go down the path of making it all just pure political thriller set in some made-up world, I would love that. I could not care less about dragons and wargs and Others and whatever. Even though I liked Dany when her issues were with the Dothraki, she's just become so much about dragons and blood and all that, that I can't care anymore. If Tyrion gets swallowed up in some boring dragon story like Dany did, I would be so unhappy, let me tell you. Especially since I thought his chapters in ADwD were already the weakest he’s ever had.

Its not that I want to see him do anything to the kids (and I surely don't want him raping Cersei :sick:) but I thought it was interesting that he was planning to crown Myrcella in ASOS, knowing she would die because of it, just to hurt Cersei. I would like to see what he does with the children and to his other family members.

I’m *really* curious about what will happen when Tyrion and Cersei see each other again. I actually think their relationship is one of the most interesting of the series, because they both seem to hate each other so much, which is especially interesting considering how much they love Jaime. I have no doubt that if it came down to it, they would both delight in tearing the other limb from limb and then probably fuck Jaime forever after. So bizarre, and so interesting, in my opinion.

He thought that in ADwD. Lately I have really hard time to feel symphatethic towards him. I know he only thought about that but honestly even the fact that he actually though about it makes me feel disguisted with him, because of all the things he does recently (like the way he beheaved with the whore at etc....), I dont even pity him anymore. Before I though, poor Tyrion because he was born as a dwarf he had to endure this and that, but not anymore. There is a limit how much of your actions you can blame on upbringing and others. There are a lot of people who had horrible childhood, with horrible memories, yet they dont fall that low as him.

I don’t know, I think it’s somewhere between the two for me. I never especially pitied him, because I think he’s always been a pretty arrogant asshole. And sure, he’s a dwarf – but he’s also the richest dwarf in the entire world. You win some, you lose some, I guess. Even among the nobles – I don’t think someone like Cersei, who is treated as chattel, blocked from power at every turn, and has her family stripped away and killed, is any better off than Tyrion is.

On the other hand, I do like Tyrion. He’s pragmatic and resourceful, he is capable of love, he knows that he’s not anything special but he yearns for special things anyway. All that is dear to my heart, and reasons why I’ll always care about Tyrion, even if he succeeds in turning himself into the horrible person he’s apparently trying to make himself be.

The things that drive me away from the character are when GRRM gives him too many strokes of luck, or makes him totally passive in his storylines, or makes him into some buffoon telling too many OTT one-liners and somersaulting around. If he becomes a truly bad person, I won’t care about him any less, I’ll just think it’s a tragedy – maybe the biggest in the series. Lots of characters are killed, but if he really does end up losing his soul, we’ll have seen a fundamentally good person dismantled bit by bit and made into a monster – how horrifying is that? I don’t know when I’ll decide that he’s lost his soul. I guess by saying that I mean I don’t think he’s there yet.

I actually had a very hard time connecting with him in this book, which is unusual for me (I like some of the other characters as much, but he has always made the most sense to me). But then he had this internal meltdown where he basically just falls into despair, and it connected him to me again: (talking about Penny being so trusting) “Sometimes he wanted to slap her, shake her, scream at her, anything to wake her from her dreams. No one is going to save us, he wanted to scream at her. The worst is yet to come. Yet somehow he could never say the words. Instead of giving her a good hard crack across that ugly face of hers to knock the blinders from her eyes, he would find himself squeezing her shoulder or giving her a hug. Every touch a lie. I have paid her so much false coin that she thinks herself half rich (764).” What I thought was so powerful is, even as he’s at his most terrified and angry, he thinks of Penny’s trust as a gift (to her and to himself), and he can’t break it. I think it shows a lot of strength that he’d rather trap his feelings/self inside himself than hurt a person who trusts him, and I also think it shows a, I don’t know, lack of cynicism? idealism? gentleness? that he values trust and innocence.

[Raksha the Demon]

It could be that Tyrion is destined to become a younger, shorter version of Tywin. Sons often become their fathers when they grow older, ditto daughters becoming their mothers. And Tyrion is growing darker. Killing Tywin didn't help him one bit. There are two things that might keep Tyrion from becoming Tywin Mark II - Tyrion does have that streak of compassion; and doesn't hate everybody, just his family; and he has another quality that Tywin doesn't seem to have ever had - a sense of humor.

It was probably Tyrion's compassion for innocence that drove him extra hard to be kind to Sansa before he was married to her...

But in ADWD and possibly earlier, Tyrion evidently not planned Myrcella's death, or at least knowingly set her on a course that could result in her death, and he's talking about setting his niece and nephew at war just to aggravate their mother. Tommen and Myrcella are innocent, and have only shown him affection; and he's joking about their going to war against each other, or setting Myrcella up for death as the Dorne-backed Queen? It's rather appalling. If Tyrion does succeed in getting his niece and nephew killed, then I will have lost all respect and fondness for the character. Maybe GRRM wants to turn him into a shorter version of Richard III from the Wars of the Roses; since Richard probably had his young nephews murdered...

Does anyone think that Tyrion might end up as Lord of Casterly Rock with Penny as his Lady? I suppose that it's more likely that Penny will die young...