[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Raksha the Demon]

IMO in Tyrion's POV about we see him constantly switching between wishful thinking and reality. Sometimes he says why couldn't she have done this to me as others do to their husbands. Other times he totally understands that why Sansa is doing what she is doing. Sometimes he makes wrong assumptions but those are usually in the process of arriving at a conclusion which is usually right.

IMO if Tyrion gets angry at her it will be for framing him for Joff's murder and not for leaving him or being cold to him. At present he doesn't seen totally convinced of Sansa's role. Think what will happen when Tyrion finds Sansa with LF. There is a mild chance that he will decide to completely and utterly(Lannisters don't do half measures) destroy her. And this is not because he thinks that she has wronged him but because he begins to think of her as another player and that is what tyrion does- being ruthless to his opponents.

From Sansa's POV what she did is justified. She did all she can to get out of there with as little damage as possible and why should she care about the side-effects since she is all alone in the game and no one else is in her team.

At the moment (her parts of AFFC), Sansa is not alone in the game. For better or worse (and I am of the opinion that it is worse), Sansa has Littlefinger, one of the few men in the entire world who can out-maneuver and out-manipulate Tyrion as her mentor and backer in the game. We don't know what the situation will be when Tyrion returns to Westeros, though. If Sansa, prodded by Littlefinger, lies to the High Septon or whoever the current Regent will be and tells them that Tyrion masterminded the plot to kill Joffrey in return for immunity from prosecution, then Tyrion will be (rightly) furious and try to destroy Sansa. So far, Sansa tends to remember the people who helped her or were kind to her with kindness and fairness on her part. She remembers Tyrion kindly in AFFC; but Lysa (or was it Littlefinger, or both) told Sansa that Tyrion had his last wife gang-raped; which, if this point is hammered in to Sansa, might make her turn on Tyrion and lie in a court of law. We do see Sansa becoming more proficient in lying in AFFC, and feeling less conscience-stricken about it, thanks to Littlefinger telling her that some lies are beneficial if done for a good cause.

We are really waiting on Sansa here. If she continues to parrot Littlefinger and become more his pupil than a Stark daughter, Sansa will become Alayne, who, though stronger than Sansa, is more corruptible and is already justifying giving a sick child dangerous medicine to make their journey down to the Vale easier. (I am not sure that Sansa realizes that Littlefinger intends to kill her SweetRobin, at least not consciously; not yet) Will Sansa increase in strength and confidence (as Alayne is also doing, that is the only upside of Littlefinger's tutelage) and start making her own judgments and decisions instead of Littlefinger's? Sansa is still in a delicate position, since Littlefinger is her only protection against a world she knows is harsh, and a world where she is a regicide suspect. Littlefinger is also preying upon Sansa's feelings of guilt for the death of Dontos and perhaps, to some extent, Marillion, who she allowed Littlefinger to frame for Lysa's death; when these were decisions that Littlefinger made himself and Sansa was in no position to protest.

Tyrion has already become much darker and more angry than he was before Joffrey's death; and Sansa has grown up already from his terrified child bride. They will be different people when/if they see each other again; and I am sadly not sure that either of them can find their true selves anymore. Of course, it can be said that Sansa is still evolving, since she is a teenager and a young one, but she is being corrupted, and the lines of morality in her life, those lines of honor and righteousness that once were important to all the Starks, have become blurred, by circumstance, by Littlefinger, and by Sansa's own sense of survival.

[Raksha the Demon]

Why does everybody want Penny and Tyrion together? Is this because they're both dwarfs? That sucks as a reason to be honest. Besides, it's pretty clear that they don't desire each other. And I think Penny deserves a guy who is honest to her./Off Topic

Sansa and Tyrion has no future whatsoever because they do not love each other, they do not desire each other (Tyrion desires almost every attractive girl over 13, so that doesn't count) and there is way too much past issues involved. And Tyrion is still married, technically to his first wife. His marriage to Sansa can easily be annulled because it was never consumated.

Didn't Tywin or Tyrion himself say that the marriage to Tysha was annulled? And yes, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa can be annulled due to to non-consummation; if Tyrion is willing to tell the truth about it. I could see a deal being worked out between the two of them, with or without Littlefinger (depending on if he is there) if there are trials and hearings; Sansa tells the truth about Tyrion's having no involvement in Joffrey's murder (and also gives favorable testimony of his character in general) and Tyrion supports an annulment of their marriage. At least that's what I hope will happen. If Sansa pulls a Shae on Tyrion and says she overheard him plotting to kill Joffrey, things will get very ugly. I'm hoping that Sansa, even after a year or two or more of being Littlefinger's pawn, is still better than that.

[Silverin]

Didn't Tywin or Tyrion himself say that the marriage to Tysha was annulled? And yes, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa can be annulled due to to non-consummation; if Tyrion is willing to tell the truth about it. I could see a deal being worked out between the two of them, with or without Littlefinger (depending on if he is there) if there are trials and hearings; Sansa tells the truth about Tyrion's having no involvement in Joffrey's murder (and also gives favorable testimony of his character in general) and Tyrion supports an annulment of their marriage. At least that's what I hope will happen. If Sansa pulls a Shae on Tyrion and says she overheard him plotting to kill Joffrey, things will get very ugly. I'm hoping that Sansa, even after a year or two or more of being Littlefinger's pawn, is still better than that.

Well even if Sansa tells the truth that Tyrion didnt plot to kill Joff, he still killed his father and Shae. And kinslaying is supposed to be one of the most unacceptable among the crimes one can commit. So he still won't be innocent, any trial has the right to execute him or send him to the Wall because of that.

(And dont come to me with the Tyrion is a secret Targ theory. Even if he is the people of Westeros will se someone who killed his father and his former lover.)

[the Scorpion Knight]

Well even if Sansa tells the truth that Tyrion didnt plot to kill Joff, he still killed his father and Shae. And kinslaying is supposed to be one of the most unacceptable among the crimes one can commit. So he still won't be innocent, any trial has the right to execute him or send him to the Wall because of that.

(And dont come to me with the Tyrion is a secret Targ theory. Even if he is the people of Westeros will se someone who killed his father and his former lover.)

and what if she blames even this crime to littlefinger after she causes his death?

she knows he hired dwarfs for the wedding. so why not also assasins to make him also a kinslayer

[littlebird_]

and what if she blames even this crime to littlefinger after she causes his death?

she knows he hired dwarfs for the wedding. so why not also assasins to make him also a kinslayer

haha well if she does get Tyrion out of that charge I guess Tyrion would be thankful :D

My assumption is that somehow through Dany and his new position there Tyrion will get out of all the charges against him but I am not sure he can ever return to Casterly Rock, even if the crown forgives him I am not sure all the Lords will forget about it. But he can be the hand at KL.

[Alexia]

Wow, you take off for a little while and your favorite thread explodes.

As for the topic at hand, I don't see any real appeal in a Tyrion/Sansa marriage (unless it's a purely political thing) - they're very different people and, frankly, I don't think he ever would have been a good fit for Sansa. I like both characters on their own, but as a couple they just don't work for me, at all.

This is an excellent point, what they look for in their partners is completely different even if you set aside the whole Lannister/Stark issue. Shae is much more Tyrion's type than Sansa is -- she is always making sexy jokes, she is witty and sassy and those are things Tyrion likes in a girl. Sansa is very elegant and courteous (a proper little lady) and reserved, it is at the core of who she is as a person. OTOH, Sansa wants a strong man who makes her feel safe and protected, and a fighter, and who has a similar level of reserve as she does (she doesn’t really think Tyrion’s jokes are funny). This isn’t Tyrion, at all. Neither one of them are wrong in their preferences but these are their preferences and it means that there really isn’t any attraction to personality happening, either.

On the other hand, when he was signing those papers, he was laughing like it was all a big farce. I don’t know how to read it. I guess he was laughing at himself? And then he wrote out the Lord title in his own blood, b/c he got it through blood?

I don’t really think Tyrion believes that he will ever take that Rock. I think at this point he is just bubbling over with hatred for his family and is absorbed in getting revenge. Regardless of whether or not he is successful, he will make life a misery for a lot of people (including Cersei, the current Lady of Casterly Rock) and this delights him. The more I think about it, the more frightening I find Tyrion to be in ADWD.

Totally agree. When you show up looking like a demon and on account of a horrifying murder rap, maybe you should lay off on stories that basically boil down to: that 12-year-old is a BITCH!

:lol:

Well, when you put it that way…

Me, too. I know it's ridiculous, since this is a fantasy series, but honestly, if GRRM would go down the path of making it all just pure political thriller set in some made-up world, I would love that. I could not care less about dragons and wargs and Others and whatever.

I think the real problem I have with the dragons is: 1) they are not in Westeros and I do not care about Essos; and, 2) they overpower Daenerys, a character who I do not like at all, in a way that no other character has. I think I’d find Daenerys to be much more interesting without her dragons, in fact.

If Tyrion does succeed in getting his niece and nephew killed, then I will have lost all respect and fondness for the character. Maybe GRRM wants to turn him into a shorter version of Richard III from the Wars of the Roses; since Richard probably had his young nephews murdered...

I do know that our Tyrion was inspired by Shakespeare’s Richard III. I see his narrative as being one about how power corrupts, and I would not be at all surprised if he decides to hurt the children to hurt Cersei. In re-reading some of his ACOK chapters, I was struck by the difference in tone between those chapters and his ADWD chapters. That sense of bubbling malice is absent and instead there is a really happy-go-lucky guy.

I'd forgotten about Robb's will, which supposedly disinherits Sansa from the Winterfell succession because she was married to Tyrion. Does anyone know if this will was actually set down, or just something Robb was thinking about doing? It would surprise me that the will was duly written and witnessed, since Tywin seemed to have had no knowledge of it - he ordered the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to give Tyrion, and thus the Lannisters, control of Winterfell via a son of Sansa; and that will would negate his plan. Not to mention Littlefinger doesn't seem to know of it either. Rickon too is left out of the will, since Robb believed him dead at the time he would have written the will...

It doesn’t matter. All the will does is state Robb’s preference and he is dead so what he wants doesn’t matter. The North wants a Stark in Winterfell and they would cheerfully take Sansa, I would expect half of them to consider her a hero for killing Joffrey. What would get interesting is if she raised an army as Lady Arryn, Jon raised half the North (which I’ve no doubt he could do) to press his own claim, Lord Manderly produces Rickon and raises army to press his claim, and then the Boltons press a claim through Arya. What a dead man said doesn’t matter, you’ll have bannermen pledging right and left depending on how it benefits them and the North could really go into major chaos between the Stark children. Stannis would be delighted to put his hands on Sansa, so would Manderly.

However, I don’t think a southern marriage will help Sansa take the North (another part of why I don’t believe she will ever be Lady of Winterfell). If she came north and married a powerful bannerman who is respected by the others then it would be hers. But I don’t see Lady Arryn being a preferable alternative to Rickon Stark, or Jon Snow.

[Alexia]

And…I lost multi-quote. :( Makes this harder.

It would be much harder for Tyrion to adjust his requirements for a woman to love than it is for Sansa. Sansa is pretty; and even if she were to marry a plain-looking man or a scarred man, she would still be pretty. Book-Tyrion will always be physically unattractive, whether he loves the fairest woman in Westeros or an ordinary looking girl.

I agree with this and while I always thought it was simple superficiality I like the idea that it has something to do with his own insecurities. I also think that what was said way upthread is relevant here - - that he proves something to the world if he convinces a beautiful woman to love him despite his own hideousness. One thing I found very interesting was when he wondered if Shae could even see ugly.

Just because he's ugly doesn't mean he has an obligation to get with anyone who wants him.

No, he doesn’t. That being said, it does make him a hypocrite to be resentful of women who don’t see past his ugly exterior and value him for his internal qualities, while not being willing to do the same for them.

I don't know if that's true. I think you're right that he has a "thing" about beauty, but I also think that if he's been able to sleep with the vast numbers of people he apparently has, his standards must not be so high. :P

He pays for it, though. He isn’t trolling around looking for hot willing girls to take as a lover, he is making a monetary exchange and seeks out attractiveness in exchange for his money.

To be honest, I would guess that it would be impossible for Tyrion to be in a mutually enjoyable romantic relationship.

Yeah, his character is fascinating but I wouldn’t wish him on any woman in the story (especially after that prostitute experience in ADWD, which I found sickening). It is another reason why I’m not exactly predicting any sort of happy ending for him; he has changed for the worse with women (he wasn’t great with Shae in ACOK, but he was a veritable prince in comparison with the ADWD chapters) and I don’t foresee romantic happiness in the cards for him.

Sansa, because of her birth, beauty, and personality, is a kind of "trophy" to the men of her world. Her bestowing a "favor" (such as a kiss) on Sandor is her way of awarding him the trophy (of herself).

It's the only thing of value she has to give him. And, luckily/unluckily for her, in her world it actually has tremendous value.

I think the horrible part of it, for Sansa as an individual, is that Sansa still thinks she owes it to the man to not only give him a symbol of the "trophy" he's won, she also thinks she has to feel the feelings along with it.

Too many Sansa threads going on; I made a response to this in the wrong one (getting them all confused). I don’t get this line of thinking. I don’t think there’s any sort of trophy thing going on with Sansa; if anything, she does not want to be a trophy. She wants a man who will love her for herself, not just for her beauty but for her personality and character. I don’t think there was any sort of bestowing a favor on him going on, or that she thinks she has to feel certain feelings. I think that she’s a twelve year old girl going through sexual development, crushes are a normal and necessary part of that, and Sandor is pretty much the only candidate for it. He tried to help her to the limited extent that he was able, and he cut her loose from a mob, and he asked her to come with him.

I think it is less that she is awarding Sandor anything than it is that she is claiming something for herself. That romance she wants (and she does romanticize her kiss), getting a first kiss from a man who she wants to kiss her (as opposed to the other candidates: Tyrion, Joffrey, LF, Dontos…blech!), somebody who wants Sansa for Sansa rather than Winterfell or Catelyn (blech again!), and the opportunity to feel all grown up compared to the other girls who are playing kissing games with each other. It gives her a bit of power and the opportunity to explore her sexuality in a way that is safe to her (because he isn’t there to do anything about it).

Shae didn't "humiliate him at the wrong time", she lied at his trial to make sure Tyrion would get beheaded and she also lied about Sansa's involvement, so she would also be sure of the headman's axe or sword. In addition, she twisted the knife by doing some unnecessary extra public humiliation for the benefit of those who were about to condemn Tyrion to die. She is not innocent, she tried to get him killed and he returned the favour and succeeded where she failed to get his head off his shoulders.

One thing you are overlooking is that Shae was immediately arrested by our sweet Cersei when Sansa vanished and Tyrion disappeared, and that Varys (who also testified against Tyrion) knew perfectly well who she was. There is no question in my mind that Cersei (the person, you know, jiggering the trial) told Shae what she had to say. I don’t think Shae had any choice in whether or not she testified against Tyrion and I definitely consider it a score against Tyrion in the dating game. Moreover, her testimony was meant to humiliate, not convict. Varys, Lady Taena, the KG – they were all decisive in convicting Tyrion. Shae’s part was getting him laughed at.

[Wouter]

Yeah, his character is fascinating but I wouldnt wish him on any woman in the story (especially after that prostitute experience in ADWD, which I found sickening). It is another reason why Im not exactly predicting any sort of happy ending for him; he has changed for the worse with women (he wasnt great with Shae in ACOK, but he was a veritable prince in comparison with the ADWD chapters) and I dont foresee romantic happiness in the cards for him.

He was awful with Illyrio's servant/slave girl and especially so with the poor slave girl/whore in that Volantene town along the Rhoyne, but his relation with Penny after that surely took a turn for the better. Penny surely was charmed by him, and I see Tyrion reacting to her positively if he gets a bit more time (assuming she doesn't have the bloody flux).

One thing you are overlooking is that Shae was immediately arrested by our sweet Cersei when Sansa vanished and Tyrion disappeared, and that Varys (who also testified against Tyrion) knew perfectly well who she was. There is no question in my mind that Cersei (the person, you know, jiggering the trial) told Shae what she had to say. I dont think Shae had any choice in whether or not she testified against Tyrion and I definitely consider it a score against Tyrion in the dating game. Moreover, her testimony was meant to humiliate, not convict. Varys, Lady Taena, the KG they were all decisive in convicting Tyrion. Shaes part was getting him laughed at.

Varys only told the truth, Taena was lying through her teeth either in order to advance her own interests or because she was bought already. All the testimonies, except for Taena ("I saw him put the poison in the cup" - a lie) and Shae ("Sansa and Tyrion planned it together, to kill the noblest child ever born on Earth" - a lie) only pointed out that Tyrion and Joffrey were at odds. Tywin and Kevan hardly needed testimony to know that, but Taena and Shae outright "proved" him (and Sansa, in Shae's case) as the killer.

Shae was arrested right away, but so was Brella and Brella didn't testify against Sansa and Tyrion, yet was released unharmed. Cersei did not know beforehand, AFAIK, that Shae was actually Tyrion's concubine and thus she shouldn't have been treated differently from Brella - just another maid. The "giant of Lannister" part was also far to close to the truth to be something Cersei ordered her to say; this seems a personal touch added by Shae in order to twist the knife, burn her bridges behind her. Her testimony was the most clear proof that Tyrion did it, and it was the only testimony which also condemned Sansa as guilty. Shae was talking both Tyrion and Sansa directly to the headsman, this was no innocent game. She also expected to get richly rewarded for it, as Cersei later thinks about Shae coming to ask for her reward. Her words in the trial were murder, just as much as Tyrion's hands around the chain later. Shae was the crown witness for the prosecution, which is why Cersei left her for last. After that, Tyrion's boat had sailed even with people maybe willing to doubt, like Kevan.

[Alexia]

Well, I don't want to make this a Shae thread because I am so tired of going around in circles on that one, but Kevan believed that Tyrion was guilty long before Shae took the stand, and Varys' testimony was absolutely damning (even including conversations with Bronn about killing Joffrey to install Tommen in his place). Shae was also frightened when she came into the courtroom.

Shae is a whore who was murdered by a high nobleman before her body was rolled up in a rug to be thrown out like so much trash. Sansa Stark and Tyrion Lannister are two of the very highest nobles in the kingdom, practically royalty. Cersei Lannister is royalty. Not only does it make no sense that they would talk about such things in front of her (Sansa, especially...) but it makes no sense that her testimony was decisive against them, or that she had any choice but to testify (a few carrots notwithstanding). Pycelle stands much higher than Shae and he had no choice but to testify against Margaery.

IMO, Shae is a very unlucky and foolish girl who tried to play for herself and instead got torn apart like a bone between two dogs. I don't like her very much at all but I do pity her.

[Wouter]

Shae admitted to having been Tyrion's concubine; it is perfectly believable he would have talked openly to her. And since Sansa was supposed to be "in" on the plot...

In my view, Shae sold Tyrion out, knowing full well it was his head, and sold out Sansa too for good measure while she was at it. I'm far from convinced she was really forced to do so.

[Été]

I tread a middle ground. I don't think Shae had any choice about testifying against Tyrion, but she didn't just adopt the role set in front of her to keep her head. She worked hammer and tongs to blame and discredit Tyrion in the hopes of currying favour with Cersei. It certainly got her brownie points with Tywin.

[rue721]

if anything, she does not want to be a trophy. She wants a man who will love her for herself, not just for her beauty but for her personality and character.

I agree that Sansa doesn't *want* to be a trophy or an object. But since when does what Sansa wants matter? Her value in this world goes hand in hand with her value as a beautiful maid. A piece of that is the most valuable thing she can give a person, and getting that taken away would make her near powerless.

I think it is less that she is awarding Sandor anything than it is that she is claiming something for herself. That romance she wants (and she does romanticize her kiss), getting a first kiss from a man who she wants to kiss her (as opposed to the other candidates: Tyrion, Joffrey, LF, Dontos…blech!), somebody who wants Sansa for Sansa rather than Winterfell or Catelyn (blech again!), and the opportunity to feel all grown up compared to the other girls who are playing kissing games with each other. It gives her a bit of power and the opportunity to explore her sexuality in a way that is safe to her (because he isn’t there to do anything about it).

I think that could be a part of it, too. I have a hard time believing that at this point, Sansa sees her sexuality as something *she* owns and can do with what she likes. But Sansa's tough -- maybe that is the case. Sandor also does seem like an especially safe person to her. And her sexuality is going to be there, whether she wishes it were, or not.

But she also can't be blind to how others see her sexuality. She's got to guard that pretty tightly, because it's her only/best weapon. It's even something that is tying Littlefinger to her at this point.

Shae sold Tyrion out, knowing full well it was his head, and sold out Sansa too for good measure while she was at it. I'm far from convinced she was really forced to do so.

I think it could be a little from column A, a little from column B. Shae probably thought Tyrion was doomed -- the royals were all against him, and probably Cercei said he was. I would think that Cercei told Shae: Tyrion's going down regardless, but I want him laughed at, too, out of spite. If you make that happen, I'll reward you with the life he would have given you if he'd lived. I think Shae thought it was her only chance not to go straight back to the brothel and that it ultimately would be meaningless in the general trial. How could a random 18-year-old whore think that she has the power to condemn a powerful noble? I think she probably thought it was all over her head, so she'd do what she could to get what she could.

Sadly for Shae, she underestimated her power.

[Alexia]

I think that could be a part of it, too. I have a hard time believing that at this point, Sansa sees her sexuality as something *she* owns and can do with what she likes. But Sansa's tough -- maybe that is the case. Sandor also does seem like an especially safe person to her. And her sexuality is going to be there, whether she wishes it were, or not.

Well, I don't think she does. LF is forcing her to kiss him even though he knows full well she doesn't want to. But...she is still a hormonal teenager. She isn't going to give herself up lightly after managing to keep her bodily integrity for so long (something I see her as having fought to maintain) but I do think that she would like to choose who she kisses and has sex with. And Sandor is actually an excellent crush in this respect because he isn't there. She can have all the kissing fantasies and sex dreams in the world without any danger to herself or her virtue, because he isn't there to put in any claims on her body.

Also, Sansa is already powerless. Choosing a sex partner (or someone to kiss) of her own initiative would actually concentrate a little power in her hands -- a very small amount of power but about a very important thing to her. Also, she sees other girls sleep around. Myranda tells her about how she slept with Marrillion and Sansa likes her a lot.

On Shae, I actually think that she probably thought he was involved and didn't realize that she was testifying against an innocent man (though I doubt it would have made a difference, ultimately). I would think Tyrion was involved, had I not read Sansa/Tyrion chapters, and Cersei fully believed that he and Sansa were involved.

[rue721]

She isn't going to give herself up lightly after managing to keep her bodily integrity for so long (something I see her as having fought to maintain) but I do think that she would like to choose who she kisses and has sex with.

I think we're basically agreeing, but talking past each other.

I think Sansa would like it if she never had to deal with sex again. But her body isn't going to let her. So she tries to put her sexuality into a very safe box (called Sandor Fantasies) and clamp it down otherwise.

Meanwhile, though, her primary value in the world is as a sexual trophy/object. Any power she has is inherently tied to her sexuality. I think she tries to claim that power in a chaste, youthful way -- such as by imaging Davos, who she knows is a good guy trying to help her, as a great knight and by bestowing a kiss on him.

But I think she isn't comfortable with the way people use the power of her sexuality against her, and I don't think she knows how to use it herself.

Cercei, imo, is a tragic example of someone who tries to use her sexuality as a man uses his, because she can't deal with the political/social reality of being a woman in this world. She won't take ownership over her power as a trophy or as an object. And that means that she's just passed around in a way that benefits the men around her -- especially her father. I hope that Sansa comes to terms better than Cercei did of the pros and cons of being a beautiful, highborn woman in a world in which women are valued largely for their beauty and birth and *not* for anything interior to them as people.

[Été]

I think she tries to claim that power in a chaste, youthful way -- such as by imaging Davos, who she knows is a good guy trying to help her, as a great knight and by bestowing a kiss on him.

:stunned: Hot damn. Maybe I did read ADWD too fast, after all.

[FacelessGirl]

Sandor Fantasies... sorry but that made me giggle. :lol:

[rue721]

:stunned: Hot damn. Maybe I did read ADWD too fast, after all.

Oh shit, did I get a name wrong? Probably.

I was thinking of that drunkard who was trying to save her from the Lannisters in CoK. When she first went to meet him in the 'wood, she was disappointed that he was a drunkass disgrace. But by the end, she realized he was her best shot and at least he was on her side -- so she gave him a peck on the cheek.

[Alexia]

Oh shit, did I get a name wrong? Probably.

I was thinking of that drunkard who was trying to save her from the Lannisters in CoK. When she first went to meet him in the 'wood, she was disappointed that he was a drunkass disgrace. But by the end, she realized he was her best shot and at least he was on her side -- so she gave him a peck on the cheek.

Dontos, not Davos. :lmao: Poor Davos is busy getting Rickon in Skagos, and Dontos is dead.

I agree with you *mostly* and I'd say mostly because I think that Sansa perceives that her primary value is tied to Winterfell and her claim at this point. But the box of "Sandor Fantasies" is an excellent way to describe what is going on with her.

I'm actually interested in whether or not she'll get any new crushes in the Vale. At her age, she should be getting a new one every week but somehow I doubt it. She doesn't want to deal with real boys anymore, her box is much safer.

[Yellow Dog]

I think Sansa could do a lot worse than to end up back with Tyrion. Marrying Edric Strom would be a prime example of doing worse. Considering the time period these people are supposed to be living in, Tyrion has been downright gallant and sweet toward Sansa. He could have demanded his rights as her husband and forced her to consumate. He didn't. He tried to treat her with dignity and respect - which is more than she'd get from a lot of other men. I think the reason he is thinking of Sansa as false is because he might think she really did poison Joff, and let him take the blame for it.

Sansa is a smart girl. I think she might be exposed to enough reality that she might start to appreciate the fact that she could do a lot worse than staying married to Tyrion Lannister. I would like to see them reunited, and grow to be at least fond of one another. In the world they live in that's about the best that one can hope for.

Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't think Tyrion is a monster.

Sansa would definitely benefit from staying married to Tyrion if she ever learned to see beyond appearances, but I don't think she's that smart or that self-aware. She's a shallow little bitch who got her own father murdered. That's why staying married to Sansa would eventually destroy Tyrion.

[A wilding]

Briefly:

Has anyone said Tyrion is a monster? Tyrion is the one who needs to see beyond appearances (and who knows, maybe Penny might teach him). Sansa grew smart enough to see past them by the end of AGoT, when Cersei and Joffrey taught her never again to trust any Lannister.

Mind you, if Sansa really had got her own father murdered, that would be something she had in common with Tyrion.