[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Alexia]

its too early for the lords to discover who Sansa is, that just changes the dynamics of the situation completely. Brynden arriving adds a new aspect to it but doesn't really change it completely.

Well, that depends on the ultimate intended outcome, right? After all, this was just original five-year gap coverage material. We don't know what the dynamic is supposed to be because we have zero clue of what the ultimate outcome for her will be.

I don't think Myranda suspects anything about Sansa Stark, so the Jon Snow comment might not be too central but I do think she went up to the Eyrie to get to know the bastard daughter before everyone else and she most likely has designs to marry Petyr and how better to get into his close circle than through his daughter. But she will realize they are not really behaving like father/daughter soon.

Mya may have already noticed (she and Myranda are friends, it is not impossible she would have said something to her) and I am sure that Sansa's gossipy maids have and they are gossips.

Well yes, considering Aegon is also starting an attack I don't think they can actually send men after Sansa. And I don't think the Vale would really see her as an evil murderer considering they are not all that fond of the Lannisters.

The Iron Throne is done for. Sansa Stark could declare her presence tomorrow and there is nothing they could do about it, outside of kidnapping her. The Vale will not turn Ned Stark's daughter over to them and I think LF is keeping her identity secret still to force her into complete reliance on him -- because otherwise, she might get actual allies of her own.

[Wouter]

Wouldn't it just start a new plotline? Wasn't it you who thought LF would die in TWOW or was it someone else? Either way, that could precipitate it. I think that Bronze Yohn would probably want to marry Sansa to one of his own sons/grandsons, though.

Yes I suggested LF may die in TWOW, but I was thinking end of the book (as climax of Sansa's storyline and part of the grand finale of the book) and by Sansa's own hand (the poison), and with Sansa openly revealing herself (I was thinking about Sansa listing his crimes and condemning him to die while the strangler is already starting to work). Not for Bronze Yohn to solve her problem in early or even mid TWOW.

He could want to marry Sansa to one of his own, but he seems to champion Harry (he knighted him after organising a tourney he was meant to win) and the (near future, presumably) leader of the Vale would be a natural match for a Stark girl, even if by that time Rickon's survival becomes known.

I agree with Littlebird's thoughts about the situation; Sansa will probably tackle those problems herself, she is a POV after all and it is time to get some pay off as the number of books is dwindling.

I do think Sansa's identity has to be uncovered in TWOW for her character to progress. It may or may not happen in the first chapter (and I think it will, via Brynden) but it has to happen in this book. Although the way things are going I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is her TWOW cliffhanger, with us waiting to find out how everyone reacts in the new book. :S

Someone may find out her identity (and it may well be Brynden, allthough he wouldn't know Sansa on sight - but she does resemble his sister), but it won't be common knowledge in the Vale until probably the end of the book.

The Lannisters may not be able to send an army after her, but depending on what Cersei's most pressing needs are at the time (that is, she/Tommen may still have need of protection from Tyrells or from Connington then), she could possibly send her unstoppable killing machine.

[littlebird_]

Mya may have already noticed (she and Myranda are friends, it is not impossible she would have said something to her) and I am sure that Sansa's gossipy maids have and they are gossips.

good point, Mya already might have mentioned that Petyr and his daughter are kind of .... interesting and she would have wanted to come and get Sansa on her own to get juicy gossip out from her.

Yes I suggested LF may die in TWOW, but I was thinking end of the book (as climax of Sansa's storyline and part of the grand finale of the book) and by Sansa's own hand (the poison), and with Sansa openly revealing herself (I was thinking about Sansa listing his crimes and condemning him to die while the strangler is already starting to work). Not for Bronze Yohn to solve her problem in early or even mid TWOW.

Sansa will probably tackle those problems herself, she is a POV after all and it is time to get some pay off as the number of books is dwindling.

yes, this is what I meant, starting with the Lords finding out leaves out a crucial part of Sansa tackling with the problems and trying to find a way out by herself. Then we just move to the climax of the story and we get no perspective on what Sansa did or decided upon.

The Lannisters may not be able to send an army after her, but depending on what Cersei's most pressing needs are at the time (that is, she/Tommen may still have need of protection from Tyrells or from Connington then), she could possibly send her unstoppable killing machine.

I do think that might be the next part of her story, the giant slaying and all but I don't know if it goes on TWOW or later.

[Alexia]

good point, Mya already might have mentioned that Petyr and his daughter are kind of .... interesting and she would have wanted to come and get Sansa on her own to get juicy gossip out from her.

Why the hell else would she ask Sansa if she knew how big LF's "finger" is? Who asks a daughter that kind of question about her father? :ack:

You all are probably right about the lords finding out and LF dying towards the end, but I expect Sansa's identity to be revealed early on. I'd be genuinely surprised if it was not.

I think the "giant-slaying" will happen in ADOS, though.

ETA: Yeah, based on that finger question the more I think about it the more certain I feel that rumors are already out there.

[Wouter]

If Sansa herself deals with LF (especially in such a particular fashion as I described above), this may well help her to get Tyrion to see her in a very different light. It would be clear he very much underestimated her if she can get rid of LF where so many don't even realise he is "playing", and it would also make clear where the blame for the Purple wedding lies while simultaneously distancing Sansa from it.

She even risks Tyrion getting downright interested in her, and not just because she is pretty and he happens to be married to her.

Good point about his "littlefinger". I guess Myranda expected another kind of reaction from Sansa if this would be a Craster-like thing going on; Sansa's blushing and all likely tells her Sansa is not too comfortable with sex and thus probably not a willing participant in what LF is doing.

[Alexia]

So I think that while Sansa's gossipy maid was busy telling her that Mya wasn't a virgin anymore, she was just as busy telling Mya that Lord Petyr was putting the moves on his daughter. Now -- Sansa's reaction to Myranda's question makes it pretty clear she is still a virgin, I think. Does it validate the idea that LF is being inappropriate with her? Does her reaction support the idea that LF is not her father? I'm playing with it both ways and am unsure...but I am sure that Myranda is suspicious.

[Wouter]

So I think that while Sansa's gossipy maid was busy telling her that Mya wasn't a virgin anymore, she was just as busy telling Mya that Lord Petyr was putting the moves on his daughter. Now -- Sansa's reaction to Myranda's question makes it pretty clear she is still a virgin, I think. Does it validate the idea that LF is being inappropriate with her? Does her reaction support the idea that LF is not her father?

IMO, it should be clear for Myranda (assuming she did hear the rumours) that LF is being inappropriate and Alayne doesn't want it. That doesn't have to mean he's not her father, after all both the books and real life have such cases, but it should open her further to the possibility that he is sheltering Sansa Stark (and has designs on her). The fact that Alayne appeared out of nowhere combined with unwanted attentions from "her father" is very suspicious.

I'm starting to think that info about Jon wasn't a coincidence at all and Myranda may have started testing her already. She may well start looking for evidence of dyed hair next, and then she would be almost certain.

[littlebird_]

I agree on Myranda situation, there might have been some rumors and she was checking them but Sansa's reaction is definitely one of someone who is not a willing participant. It depends on what the rumors are exactly and if the Lords are in a way involved in the plan to uncover them, Bronze yohn might want incriminating evidence towards Littlefinger, if there is gossip that he and his daughter are not acting as such maybe he can then start suspecting him for Lysa's murder. Who knows if this girl is really his daughter? Also it could work that this is just a gossip between the maids, Mya and now Myranda. What does Myranda do with the information though? I mean is it just for gossip value and she just returns and says the maids were out of line no way that girl is involved with her father or do they still suspect?

If Sansa herself deals with LF (especially in such a particular fashion as I described above), this may well help her to get Tyrion to see her in a very different light. It would be clear he very much underestimated her if she can get rid of LF where so many don't even realise he is "playing", and it would also make clear where the blame for the Purple wedding lies while simultaneously distancing Sansa from it.

I do expect her to deal with him like you mentioned and it might actually help her in the long run with Tyrion since she can prove that she wasn't party to LF's plan.

I'm starting to think that info about Jon wasn't a coincidence at all and Myranda may have started testing her already. She may well start looking for evidence of dyed hair next, and then she would be almost certain

If Myranda is consciously trying to figure out whether or not this girl is Sansa Stark then she must be working together with some people

[Alexia]

IMO, it should be clear for Myranda (assuming she did hear the rumours) that LF is being inappropriate and Alayne doesn't want it.

Well, I am wondering if she discarded the rumors after seeing Sansa's reaction but of course, watching them interact will make it very clear.

Actually, this is very interesting because I hadn't considered things in this light before. And with that stupid cover story they came up with for Sansa (announced herself after deciding she didn't want to be a septa; first he learned of her) any idiot could figure out that something is very wrong here. Add the hair dye and it only confirms it -- and Myranda may well know that Sansa's hair has been dyed. Everyone saw her with her auburn hair at LF/Lysa's wedding, including some knights and ladies, and I think Mya as well.

If Mya saw her auburn hair when she took her up the mountain that would immediately tip her off that something is wrong here. Especially with Lysa having auburn hair as well...yikes.

[littlebird_]

I hadn't considered it before either and its weird considering I did notice the little finger comment and attributed it to Myranda being interested in Littlefinger but honestly why would anyone ask that to someone's daughter.

If Mya saw her auburn hair when she took her up the mountain that would immediately tip her off that something is wrong here. Especially with Lysa having auburn hair as well...yikes.

Did she dye it after coming to the Eyrie?

If the knights saw her at the wedding I am not sure they would say something but do they know who Alayne is, does Brune know who she is? They might just mention it in passing without knowing its significance

And with that stupid cover story they came up with for Sansa (announced herself after deciding she didn't want to be a septa; first he learned of her) any idiot could figure out that something is very wrong here.

lol clearly Littlefinger is not so good with cover stories.

They might just be thinking he is very inappropriate with his daughter, I am not so sure they figured out the Sansa part though.

[Wouter]

Did she dye it after coming to the Eyrie?

If the knights saw her at the wedding I am not sure they would say something but do they know who Alayne is, does Brune know who she is? They might just mention it in passing without knowing its significance

Brune knows who she is - he is one of LF's closer confidantes (though that is not saying much; he says he has Brune watching Kettleblack-the-elder and vice-versa).

I'm not sure when Sansa dyed it, but it wasn't yet dyed at the wedding ceremony of Lysa and LF, which took place on the Fingers but was attended by some ladies (who mysteriously disappear between ASOS and AFFC, I suppose they may turn up at the Gates of the Moon), knights, servants and Marillion. Lysa told her she should dye it, but where Sansa first received said dye is unclear to me. I suppose LF did not keep hairdye at the Fingers, unless he had planned for it (but it seemed to be Lysa's idea).

[Alexia]

I remember that Lysa special-ordered that hair dye from across the sea -- I don't remember which country. I really doubt she was hauling it around with her too. At this point, I'll lay a bet that Mya saw Sansa's real hair color. The dye was Lysa's idea and it seemed pretty impulsive. I don't think Sansa was able to dye her hair until she made it up the mountain.

Okay, I feel pretty confident in the theory that Myranda has a good idea of who Sansa is and is scoping her out looking for confirmation by now.

[Été]

Lysa got the dye from Lys. Sounds like she's got a great relationship with her apothecary.

[Raksha the Demon]

IMO, it should be clear for Myranda (assuming she did hear the rumours) that LF is being inappropriate and Alayne doesn't want it. That doesn't have to mean he's not her father, after all both the books and real life have such cases, but it should open her further to the possibility that he is sheltering Sansa Stark (and has designs on her). The fact that Alayne appeared out of nowhere combined with unwanted attentions from "her father" is very suspicious.

I'm starting to think that info about Jon wasn't a coincidence at all and Myranda may have started testing her already. She may well start looking for evidence of dyed hair next, and then she would be almost certain.

I had the feeling that Myranda was a fairly intelligent young woman, and a good observer, and not necessarily a big fan of Littlefinger's. Remember how he warned Sansa to be careful in what she said to Myranda - just like Littlefinger told Sansa that Willas Tyrell was a pious bore. Littlefinger wants to be the only influence on Sansa; and the only one she will turn to (creepy pervert :pimp: ). Littlefinger certainly doesn't want Sansa making new friends and forming alliances outside of his orbit.

[littlebird_]

Brune knows who she is - he is one of LF's closer confidantes (though that is not saying much; he says he has Brune watching Kettleblack-the-elder and vice-versa).

Brune knowing and his possible liking for Mya might tie in to the story somehow, if he is the only one that can confirm what happened at the Fingers

Remember how he warned Sansa to be careful in what she said to Myranda - just like Littlefinger told Sansa that Willas Tyrell was a pious bore. Littlefinger wants to be the only influence on Sansa; and the only one she will turn to (creepy pervert ). Littlefinger certainly doesn't want Sansa making new friends and forming alliances outside of his orbit.

Very true, Littlefinger might know that he is not trusted and that they will try to get information from Sansa and is probably trying to prevent it, also the more Sansa learns about what is happening at KL the more she will realize that the immediate danger towards her is over

Also I remembered the way Myranda reacted to Sansa saying something like 'it was good of Lysa to keep us out of war' and she seems to be yeah right!! They probably all knew that Lysa wasn't all that right in the head and anyone she brought with herself would be suspicious from the start.

I feel pretty confident in the theory that Myranda has a good idea of who Sansa is and is scoping her out looking for confirmation by now.

I agree. Having decided this I think that at least Sansa revealing the information to some select few won't be long now after which she can start working with them.

[Wouter]

Brune knowing and his possible liking for Mya might tie in to the story somehow, if he is the only one that can confirm what happened at the Fingers

What happened at the Fingers, other than the marriage? Brune can certainly confirm she is Sansa Stark, though.

One thing to keep in mind with Myranda Royce is that her father Nestor owes his position (as "owner" of the Gates of the Moon, at last) to LF. If LF is brought down as a fraud, Nestor's position will be called into question - unless arrangements can be made beforehand (with Harry and/or Bronze Yohn and maybe a couple of other "lords declarant", I suppose).

[littlebird_]

What happened at the Fingers, other than the marriage? Brune can certainly confirm she is Sansa Stark, though.

sorry wrong wording on my part, what I meant was he can confirm either the hair color or her identity

One thing to keep in mind with Myranda Royce is that her father Nestor owes his position (as "owner" of the Gates of the Moon, at last) to LF. If LF is brought down as a fraud, Nestor's position will be called into question - unless arrangements can be made beforehand (with Harry and/or Bronze Yohn and maybe a couple of other "lords declarant", I suppose).

This is why I am not sure that they know she's Sansa, if there is a suspicion wouldn't Nestor be also aware of it especially since Myranda is. So the suspicion might be more of a gossip around town about father and daughter kind of thing that the women were wondering about rather than anything directly involving the Lords Declarant

assuming its just a gossop about the nature of the relationship the lords might want to use it against LF but again why use Myranda to get the information, her father is on LF's camp

[Alexia]

Well, it is possible that there isn't general gossip about Sansa's identity just yet but Myranda is forming suspicions of her own. So Mya tells her about how LF's daughter dyed her auburn hair brown, isn't that strange?! And then she tells her that Fat Maddy tells her that LF is always trying to make his daughter kiss him, and leering at her. And Myranda asks around and hears the septa story (LF says that it is rude to inquire about the origins of a man's natural children but I think it is ruder to ask a daughter the size of her dad's penis) and develops more suspicions based on that. And then she hears the news about the bounty on Sansa Stark's head -- and she starts putting two and two together.

She's a fairly smart girl and actually cares about the identity of the bastard girl in the Eyrie and therefore will pay attention to things. To the Lords Declarant, Sansa is just LF's bastard daughter, not someone to pay any attention to (until the betrothal with Harry is announced, at least). So it makes sense to me that Myranda could be forming her own suspicions but that it isn't general gossip yet.

I think that her character will be key to whatever happens next with Sansa. I am not sure if she'll be Sansa's friend or enemy just yet but I do think she's important and I do think she'll be the one to figure out her true identity.

[littlebird_]

She's a fairly smart girl and actually cares about the identity of the bastard girl in the Eyrie and therefore will pay attention to things. To the Lords Declarant, Sansa is just LF's bastard daughter, not someone to pay any attention to (until the betrothal with Harry is announced, at least). So it makes sense to me that Myranda could be forming her own suspicions but that it isn't general gossip yet.

If Myranda is just looking for gossip it would fit that she hears something is off and is trying to find out more because she's heard some whispers and is looking to validate them, for what purpose we don't know yet. I am not sure if she has linked it to Sansa Stark yet but she is clearly trying to find out something.

I think that her character will be key to whatever happens next with Sansa. I am not sure if she'll be Sansa's friend or enemy just yet but I do think she's important and I do think she'll be the one to figure out her true identity.

If she suspects her true identity I am not sure why she would be an enemy. Even if she told her father they would just assume the best of Littlefinger, he helped Lysa rescue her niece and is now hiding the Stark girl for her family.

If this is only about Littlefinger being inappropriate to his daughter or perhaps suspecting Alayne is not his daughter at all without knowledge of who she really is then she might turn into an enemy because of her own desire to wed Littlefinger.

[Wouter]

It would actually be better for Sansa if Mya and Myranda find out who she is and tell her, then she could confide in someone.

Especially since it is likely that Sansa will hear about Jon's assasination sooner or later and it will be hard to hide her emotions.