[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[littlebird_]

But not everyone puts an arrow through their father's belly just after killing their mistress on the way from escaping a death sentence for killing their nephew, you know?

LOL Tyrion really doesn't have many events that might present him like a trustworthy person. If he does present some incredible skills with the dragons he might be kept around but after learning about all the events in Westeros, I am not sure why Dany should put her trust in a man who killed his father and nephew. She might of course who knows with her but it seems a little too convenient for him to suddenly become one of her trusted advisors.

Oh, and maybe also throw in a reference to killing his mother, too, for shits and giggles. Just in case you didn't already think he had done every bad thing it was possible to do.

I think Tyrion's biggest problem is going to be himself and his inability to think before he speaks. He is bound to make some stupid and offensive joke at one point or another, its like he can't help himself. I am not sure Dany is used to people like him in her entourage.

I would say no. And I think in the end, if it comes between the Lannisters and *anybody* Tyrion will ultimately choose the Lannisters. He hates Cercei (and actually, I want to start a thread sometime soon about the pair of them, because I've been reading her chapters in ADwD and see so many parallels) but I think being part of the family is the basis of his favorite parts of himself (he was always really proud of his career, for example -- kind of ridiculously so, since his father basically arranged it for him, but wtvr) and he won't ever want to let that go. I think also he proved he *can't* let it go, literally *can't*, when he bought back his freedom with the Casterly Rock gold and Lannister titles.

In the end, yes his loyalties will always be with the Lannisters especially if Jaime is concerned. Tyrion/Cersei is an interesting dynamic because they both expect the other to be plotting to kill the other all the time. But even with his distrust of Cersei and whatever comments he makes he can not be that comfortable with Tommen and Mrycella's deaths. It is interesting that however hard they try especially with Tyrion he can not escape being a Lannister. It does apply to the identity theme of the book, he doesn't really approve of everything but he is dependent on it. He doesn't know how to be anything else but a Lannister. It is like Jaime, he is not actually proud of everything his family has done but he doesn't know how to exist in a world where he is not a Lannister. It is the opposite journey of the Stark kids who want to go home and want to be Starks but can only survive in the world under assumed names whereas Tyrion and Jaime their main survival is predicated on being a Lannister.

In ACoK, he already seems to me to be basically how he is now -- a good heart, but utterly ruthless once you cross him. I feel, though, that he always *wanted* to be a good person before, to do his job well, to be treated with respect -- just generally to be upstanding. Now, it doesn't really seem as though those things matter to him...or, they matter

He was always morally gray with some decency in him, he is a Lannister after all being morally gray comes naturally to them :D But I think before he perceived himself as being better than the rest of his family. He thought that he was doing what was necessary to win the war for his family but trying to avoid the chaos and destruction his family would create so he put himself on a morally higher ground than them. Of course, in the end he realizes that maybe he isn't, he is just like they are and that crushes his dreams of being the good one. I think its part of the reason he has an issue with Cersei, he doesn't want to think that they are the same but Cersei did not kill her nephew and father and betray her family, she protected them so unlike Cersei he is the one who betrayed his family. the lines between what is good and bad are getting blurred and he is getting frustrated and angry that he could not end up a better man. I don't know if this makes sense of course, killing his father is probably something he never thought he would be capable of, despite everything he wanted his approval and now he will never get it.

It seems as though she is disillusioned, but it didn't break her trust the way it broke his? But then, does that count as disillusionment? It's sad to think that Sansa would ever look at Winterfell the way that Tyrion looks at Casterly Rock, but maybe that's already how she looks at it...?

I think their disillusionment works in opposite ways, everyone wants to use Sansa's claim to Winterfell whereas no one wants to give Tyrion his claim to Casterly Rock and they are both related to how no one will love them for who they are. In response, Tyrion wants to take back Casterly Rock as a big screw you all to everyone who refused him his right whereas Sansa wants to become any one but Sansa in order to make sure no one uses that claim again. They are both very much defined right now with respect to their claims though and their reactions to events is driven by how they perceive that said claim, Tyrion wants it, Sansa doesn't but its because they both had very different experiences with it.

[Wouter]

Interesting point. Considering her position, and the fact that she was also beautiful, Sansa's expectation of a marriage that was as pleasing to her as it was to her family's dynastic ambitions was not entirely unrealistic.

Certainly, as pretty daughter of such a high lord as Eddard Stark she could count on a very decent marriage being made for her. Neither Catelyn nor Ned would have wanted her to be unhappy in marriage and if they hadn't been forced to act so quickly when Robert appeared on their doorstep, they probably would have taken the time to choose very carefully for both Sansa and Arya.

I recently reread a part of AGOT and when Sansa was angry with Arya because she thought she and her where being sent away from KL because of their squabbling, and I was surprised how ungraceful and bratty Sansa was in that exchange. One thing she said to Arya was that she was just as ugly and hairy as Hodor so she should marry him. I suspect that Martin already knew then that Tyrion would marry Sansa and there is an aspect of karmic justice involved. In a way, Sansa has been doing penance for some of her AGOT behaviour.

If it ever would turn out that her marriage to Tyrion would be politically good for the north (because it would allow access to food/money from the powers in the south, for example), I'll think she would accept it out of duty and to make amends to her siblings.

Sansa also hated horseriding in AGOT, preferring to ride in an enclosed wagon instead (with Cersei). By ASOS, this had changed dramatically as she enjoyed going riding with Margaery and Cersei's presence had long lost its luster.

I think a reunion between Sansa and Arya is really needed for their story; I want to see Sansa confessing she went to Cersei and Arya forgiving her and helping her. The pack survives, the lone wolf dies, so let them be a pack with the summer squabbles left behind them. Sansa and Arya together could be extremely effective.

And I wonder about Tyrion's welcome by Dany. She HATES traitors and liars, and I'm sure she's not that thrilled about kinslayers, either, and there are other people converging on Meeren who can offer her as much counsel as Tyrion.

Dany didn't do much to help Viserys while he was being "crowned", though. She knows something about having abusive family and Tywin is probably her enemy #1 so she just might not hold that against him too badly (though kinslaying remains an icky thing). Tyrion also didn't betray his family; they were about to put him to death on trumped up charges, so if anything Cersei and Tywin betrayed him.

Tyrion combination of political cunning, knowledge of Westeros and of dragons plus bringing the second sons back to her side should be very valuable to her. I expect him to have proven himself to Barristan and co by the time she returns from (or with) the Dothraki. A possible advantage of Tyrion is also that he likely will be more willing to tell her hard truths, something Jorah tended not to do and Barristan only with the greatest reluctance (and constantly being cut off whenever he does).

It's interesting to think what he would say about the Starks. I think he would tell her the truth about the rebellion (including the gory details from her father) and so paint them in a rather positive light, and given how he turned on his family he'll probably not hold back the truth about the incest either (so again the Starks would come out looking OK in the present conflict).

I guess he wouldn't want to talk much about Sansa; Dany is unlikely to appreciate forced marriages for such young girls (especially with reasons the Lannisters had) and as others have said, telling how his 12 year old bride may have pulled the wool over his eyes is rather embarrassing. Maybe he'll mention her in passing and shift as much of the blame for the forcing part as possible, to his family. In addition to the risk of rising Dany's ire, he also presumably wouldn't want to talk a lot about her due to his emotions on the subject.

Also, you comment on the hard hand of slavers but Tyrion actually thought that there was little differences between slaves and Westerosi smallfolk; I think he thought Dany was misguided. And finally, Dany likes dangerous men but she most surely likes them hot. Tyrion stands a chance of earning her respect and becoming a valuable adviser but none of landing in her bed.

Personally I do think there is still a lot of difference between Westerosi serfs and eastern slaves, allthough Tyrion didn't witness the excesses of for example the Astapori unsullied training, which Dany had described to her in detail. Sure it depends on the local lord or local owner and the status/knowledge of a slave, but in general serfs seem to be better off than the average slave.

I doubt Tyrion would plan of landing in Dany's bed - that would be dangerous as Tyrion knows from his brother, and he also knows that Dany must marry for political gain (and thus not with a hated and hideous, Lannister dwarf). But Dany could come to like him personally as she seems to love the kind of banter and verbal sparring that Tyrion tends to be associated with.

I don't see Tyrion taking Casterly Rock on his own with the Second Sons though. They have 500 swords, that 1/20th of what Aegon has with the Golden Company and even that is far too low to secure the Iron Throne. The lannisters could easily field tens of thousands if pressed. No, Tyrion is going for a dragon and he will be with Dany, hoping to get Casterly Rock awarded from her (and why not, if he is loyal and helpful to her and he is the legal heir anyway?). Once in Westeros, I wouldn't be surprised if he was the "betrayal for love" if he lets his brother escape from his queen after all. One line that struck me in ADWD was from Jon, regarding Axel and Alester Florent: "what kind of man just watches while his own brother is burned". I think Tyrion is likely not that man, when push comes to shove and it is no longer a fantasy but about to happen. I hope he is not that far gone now.

I also wonder if a betrayal of such kind would not eventually gain him more standing with Dany rather then lose, once she gets over her initial anger and shock (assuming she does, of course). Jon does not regard Axell Florent highly, and I think Stannis doesn't either (contrary to Davos, who betrayed Stannis by shipping out Edric Storm). It would make Tyrion a better man if he risked everything to help save his brother from his own queens vengeance.

As for why Tyrion wants Casterly Rock, no doubt for the same reason Dany wants the seven kingdoms: it's a birthright denied. Tyrion is legally the heir, with Jaime in the Kingsguard. That his father denied it to him is all the more reason to go for it now, as he want to spite his father and spit on hom in the grave.

But I expect Tyrion, if he doesn't end up dying, to be king or at least hand of the queen in the end, and Casterly Rock may well go to a child of Kevan or to Tyrek or even to Joy instead. I don't see Jaime taking it, and Tommen and Myrcella seem, sadly, not to have good survival prospects. I am one of those who suspects Tyrion to be a bastard son of Aerys and thus only a bastard Lannister (through Joanna); even if not he will probably be a dragonrider and have a high place in Dany's "new order". There have been hints Tyrion has some Targ qualities and kingly qualities since early AGOT. And sure, Jaime and Cersei being Aery's would also be neat in a way and there are some hints to, but I doubt Aerys' did anything serious on the wedding night - inappropriate behaviour during the bedding notwithstanding. If Aerys had indeed bedded Joanna that night, there would have been a lot of rumours and I can't believe Tywin wouldn't know for certain.

I'm curious to see how Bran and Jon, 2 Starks who had a decent personal rapport with Tyrion in AGOT, would react to him now, after the Sansa marriage. GRRM avoided having Jon think about Tyrion even when Stannis was talking about "lady Lannister", curiously enough. Bran seems to have connected to Theon in Winterfell, if he is willing to work with Theon I guess he would not dismiss cooperating (in some matter) with Tyrion out of hand (short of Sansa telling them he beat her regularly or something).

I don't see Sansa not being accepted back in the north because she married Tyrion, though. After all, "Arya" is not dismissed because she married Ramsay. The lords and people in the north would know well enough she was forced, so I don't see the need for Sansa to publicly attack Tyrion. It would not be smart of her to anger Tyrion, she would still either need his cooperation to get rid of the marriage or in the worst case scenario, she may yet have to live with him.

Cooperation from Tyrion is important because I think annulation will come down not to legal arguments or to the finer points of the faith, but it will be a reflection of political reality in KL. Coming with the dragons, Dany will pretty much be able to make or break lordly marriages as she pleases.

Regarding what Sansa said about the sept of Baelor, she indeed mentioned she wanted it to burn at one point. But afterwards, IIRC, she goes to pray fervently to the seven in the sept of the Red Keep, before the Blackwater battle. I think her words were spoken out of grief for Ned and she did not really mean it. It's like when she wanted Slynt's son to dishonour himself in the little tourney for Joffs nameday; when the squire did actually fell and was hurt badly, Sansa suddenly felt pity and bad about herself ("did it happen because I wished it!??". I would expect a pretty similar reaction should Cersei or Dany ever burn down the sept (I guess we can agree they are the likely pyroman candidates).

[Wouter]

LOL Tyrion really doesn't have many events that might present him like a trustworthy person. If he does present some incredible skills with the dragons he might be kept around but after learning about all the events in Westeros, I am not sure why Dany should put her trust in a man who killed his father and nephew. She might of course who knows with her but it seems a little too convenient for him to suddenly become one of her trusted advisors.

Not even if he hands her Meereen on a platter, pointing out "the Harpy" while he is at it (who do you think it is anyway - Hizdahr, the green grace, Reznak, the Shavepate even?)? If he outright manages to tame one or both dragons?

Plus, I suppose that he is going to deny having killed Joffrey? That would give him an understandable motive to turn on his family, as they framed him for murder and were about to kill him unjustly. Sure, he likes to "do a Jaime" for now and claim he did in fact do it while swallowing in self-pity, but I guess he will think more straight when faced with our vengeful Dany, who does not like being lied to.

I think Tyrion's biggest problem is going to be himself and his inability to think before he speaks. He is bound to make some stupid and offensive joke at one point or another, its like he can't help himself. I am not sure Dany is used to people like him in her entourage.

That could be a problem, but it may also be an advantage as he would tell Dany things she needs to hear (but no one else will tell her, except maybe Barristan if pressed).

I think their disillusionment works in opposite ways, everyone wants to use Sansa's claim to Winterfell whereas no one wants to give Tyrion his claim to Casterly Rock and they are both related to how no one will love them for who they are. In response, Tyrion wants to take back Casterly Rock as a big screw you all to everyone who refused him his right whereas Sansa wants to become any one but Sansa in order to make sure no one uses that claim again. They are both very much defined right now with respect to their claims though and their reactions to events is driven by how they perceive that said claim, Tyrion wants it, Sansa doesn't but its because they both had very different experiences with it.

I agree, Sansa doesn't really want her claim because she was never counting on it in the first place (being so far from being the heir) and when she suddenly was the heir (seemingly), it only brought her people wanting to profit from that. Sansa would be content to just go home and live with her brothers, now.

Tyrion though, he views Casterly rock as his right, something taken from him because his father never accepted him as his son. Taking it from Cersei is something he may want more than anything else.

[littlebird_]

Not even if he hands her Meereen on a platter, pointing out "the Harpy" while he is at it (who do you think it is anyway - Hizdahr, the green grace, Reznak, the Shavepate even?)? If he outright manages to tame one or both dragons?

I'm going with green grace as the Harpy and yes I assume in the end he will prove to be invaluable as the dragon trainer and that is why he won't get killed, and if he does turn out to be one of the heads of the dragon (which he will) Dany will automatically be inclined to trust him. At first though the relationship is hard to predict. I have no doubt Tyrion will make it through though of course since he has to get back to Westeros.

Plus, I suppose that he is going to deny having killed Joffrey? That would give him an understandable motive to turn on his family, as they framed him for murder and were about to kill him unjustly. Sure, he likes to "do a Jaime" for now and claim he did in fact do it while swallowing in self-pity, but I guess he will think more straight when faced with our vengeful Dany, who does not like being lied to.

True, this is something he might have to tell her truthfully and it would help him explain why he killed his father and hates his family, they framed him for murder.

That could be a problem, but it may also be an advantage as he would tell Dany things she needs to hear (but no one else will tell her, except maybe Barristan if pressed).

She does need to hear them but does she want to hear them? and what will she do when someone tells her more than she wants to hear.

[rue721]

Tyrion also didn't betray his family; they were about to put him to death on trumped up charges, so if anything Cersei and Tywin betrayed him.

True, but only Tyrion knows that now. Everybody is innocent when they get caught -- of course he'd say "They set me up!" etc. Just because in his case it's true doesn't make it any more believable.

Tyrion wants it, Sansa doesn't but its because they both had very different experiences with it.

I'm not sure that Sansa doesn't want Winterfell and that Tyrion does want Casterly Rock. Sansa's ultimate dream, imo, is to slip back into Winterfell as it was when she was a child -- even way back when she was thinking of marriage, she always imagined her life as basically Cat's life transposed on a different estate. We were talking earlier in the thread about her including puppies and naming everything after her lost family members, even. So I don't know if it's so much that Sansa doesn't want Winterfell as she doesn't think she can ever get it. She's trying to protect it the best way she can, even now.

On the other hand, I don't know what Tyrion's ultimate dream would be, but I think it's pretty disturbing to imagine it as him taking Tywin's place at Casterly Rock. For one, this is a man he was so furious at, he *murdered him* -- how could he bear to make himself over to be just like him? (Though that could be the case. Nobody's saying Tyrion's not a sick fucker). For another, he just sold Casterly Rock out from under himself -- he didn't protect it, he destroyed it (like he did his entire family, hmmmmm. I actually wonder if what's happening in the book(s) in general is that women (Sansa, Cercei) are protecting while men (Tyrion) are destroying? I don't think that's true of every character, but maybe it's a little bit of a running motif. Also, the ugliest character here is actually the most destructive, and the beautiful ones are actually protective -- that could come into it, too? Just throwing the thought out there).

I don't know, I think there's something going on where Sansa is protecting Winterfell by sliding her name off of the "deed" and Tyrion is destroying Casterly Rock by plastering his name all over it. I don't know if that means Sansa loves Winterfell but Tyrion doesn't love Casterly Rock, or that they both love their respective claims but Sansa's way of showing love is through protection and Tyrion's is through destruction.

Tyrion combination of political cunning, knowledge of Westeros and of dragons plus bringing the second sons back to her side should be very valuable to her. I expect him to have proven himself to Barristan and co by the time she returns from (or with) the Dothraki. A possible advantage of Tyrion is also that he likely will be more willing to tell her hard truths, something Jorah tended not to do and Barristan only with the greatest reluctance (and constantly being cut off whenever he does).

I'd already say that Tyrion's intentions in going to Dany are not "pure" -- he wants her to get rid of Cercei in order to get rid of the death sentence on his head, and I'm sure if she threw in some gold to pay off the sell-swords and give him passage to Westeros, he wouldn't say no to that, either. Tyrion's problem is that he can't get anyone else to kill Cercei for him, because even if she were dead he'd be so far from being king that there's no way the crime could be forgotten and honors given to the perpetrator. So he's got to have a queen or king kill Cercei or at least give the order for him. That king or queen could be Aegon as well as Dany. I mean, best case for Tyrion would actually be if Aegon killed Cercei and *then* got Dany to come help him conquer the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, and Dany brought Tyrion along in her retinue (maybe flying on a dragon). At that point, Aegon would probably want to make a big show for Dany and would probably drop a little bit of gold and favors into Tyrion's lap -- to show that he's a bigshot and rewards the people in alliance with him (I say that as a waitress who has served guys on dates :P). At that point, Tyrion would definitely get Casterly Rock, the sell-swords would be paid, Cercei would be gone (though damn, I guess the only close family member even left for him to kill at that point would be Tommen, maybe Marcella), and there would be no death sentence. I don't think the creepy kinkiller deformed guy flying into town on a dragon would be too reassuring to Casterly Rock's citizens or Westeros in general, but I guess he figures they'd have to deal with it. As I said before, I think Aegon would be a fool not to kill Dany once he's secured the throne, but that wouldn't matter for Tyrion at that point, since he's hopefully proven his worth to both of them separately.

But anyway! That was a long ramble to get to the point: Dany is an idiot if she really listens to Tyrion's counsel. If I were her, I'd just use him as a second source to double-check things. Any information coming from Tyrion's mouth, in my mind, would be tainted with the fact that he's constantly going to be working toward *his* interests and that they are very different from hers. He doesn't need to see her in Westeros, he just needs to see someone dead and a ticket home. Everything he says and does will be toward that aim -- and he'll throw Dany under the bus to get those pretty short-term, basic things. Tyrion *is* cunning, but that's why I think Dany would be stupid to give him a chance to say *anything* and mess with her mind -- which doesn't give him too much opportunity to prove himself. I think he'd better hope she lets him out of his cage long enough to ride the dragon to Westeros, and that Aegon is taking King's Landing in the meantime.

I think he would tell her the truth about the rebellion (including the gory details from her father) and so paint them in a rather positive light, and given how he turned on his family he'll probably not hold back the truth about the incest either (so again the Starks would come out looking OK in the present conflict).

I honestly don't know how he can paint treachery in a positive light. In Dany's eyes, his brother is a traitor (for killing Dany's father), if he spills about the incest then his sister is a traitor (for supplanting Robert's line with a line of Lannisters), and he's a traitor (for "killing" his nephew and killing his father). And the fact that this current terrible person standing in front of you hated his father so much that he murdered him probably doesn't speak well of the father, either. That's not someone that you would want within a hundred feet of you, I would think.

Of course, Tyrion *will* find some way to paint a picture that he thinks Dany will like, but...whoa, that's a tough job.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was the "betrayal for love" if he lets his brother escape from his queen after all.

"Love" is so difficult. What about love of oneself, or love of a place? I mean, I could also see something like, Sansa betrays X out of love of Winterfell. Tyrion betrays Cercei out of love for himself. Whatever. I mean, *anything* could be a betrayal for love. I also don't know if Tyrion working against Dany would be a "betrayal." What connection does he really have to her? He might be in her employ for a little while, but I don't think that means he owes her more loyalty than he owes his family.

so I don't see the need for Sansa to publicly attack Tyrion. It would not be smart of her to anger Tyrion, she would still either need his cooperation to get rid of the marriage or in the worst case scenario, she may yet have to live with him.

I agree that it would be stupid for her to get all up in Tyrion's face randomly, and force him to do something to shut her down. But I think it would be useful for *both* of them if they were to make a big show of how that alliance between the Lannisters and Starks is completely severed. If it were to help Sansa in the North, and Tyrion helped her secure her place there through some kind of sacrifice (such as a loss of pride, by letting her publicly/metaphorically spit on him) then she would owe him. Like I said, I think probably they could make a big public show of slowly rebuilding their alliance, and after a while has passed she could repay him, such as by sending one of her bannermen's daughters to be his wife.

Not even if he hands her Meereen on a platter, pointing out "the Harpy" while he is at it (who do you think it is anyway - Hizdahr, the green grace, Reznak, the Shavepate even?)? If he outright manages to tame one or both dragons?

I don't see how being even *more* lethal would be reassuring to Dany. I mean, my immediate thought upon meeting him, if I were Dany, would be that he's going to try to get back in his family's good graces by adding the East to their kingdom. Or maybe that he wants to take over the East in order to fight Westeros himself. If someone shows up and is like "I'M A GREAT KILLER AND I ALSO AM CUNNING!" wouldn't you be like: better kill you now, while I have the chance? This is someone who has obviously bitten the hands that have fed him -- is that someone you want to start feeding, too?

On the other hand, if he manages to tame and/or ride one of the dragons, she may *have* to use him. And if not, he can just hijack one of the tame!dragons and take it right to Aegon to help his battles. That's if she gives him a shot to get to the dragons, though (which, knowing these books, she will. If only as a trial or even as part of a death sentence).

Tyrion though, he views Casterly rock as his right, something taken from him because his father never accepted him as his son. Taking it from Cersei is something he may want more than anything else.

His right as a *Lannister.* And I do think that at this point, he can't deny that he is *all* Lannister (I think that's what the signing in blood was about). But I don't think being a Lannister is a happy thing for him. Casterly Rock is his savior and destroyer, I think. I guess, to me, I think of the place as representing Tywin, and that's why I say that.

[Faint]

I'm more interested in what Tyrion tells Daenerys of Jon Snow, if anything at all. Realistically, he is probably the only character acquainted with Jon that Daenerys will meet before she meets Jon herself. So my take away is that her impressions of Jon -- those she has before meeting him anyway -- will be formed on the basis of whatever Tyrion might say about him. What he says about Sansa seems inconsequential in comparison. What he says about Jaime might determine whether the latter is roasted alive by a dragon or not. Cersei, of course, is screwed either way, although Tyrion won't help her situation any.

[littlebird_]

I'm not sure that Sansa doesn't want Winterfell and that Tyrion does want Casterly Rock. Sansa's ultimate dream, imo, is to slip back into Winterfell as it was when she was a child -- even way back when she was thinking of marriage, she always imagined her life as basically Cat's life transposed on a different estate. We were talking earlier in the thread about her including puppies and naming everything after her lost family members, even. So I don't know if it's so much that Sansa doesn't want Winterfell as she doesn't think she can ever get it. She's trying to protect it the best way she can, even now.

On the other hand, I don't know what Tyrion's ultimate dream would be, but I think it's pretty disturbing to imagine it as him taking Tywin's place at Casterly Rock. For one, this is a man he was so furious at, he *murdered him* -- how could he bear to make himself over to be just like him? (Though that could be the case. Nobody's saying Tyrion's not a sick fucker). For another, he just sold Casterly Rock out from under himself -- he didn't protect it, he destroyed it (like he did his entire family, hmmmmm. I actually wonder if what's happening in the book(s) in general is that women (Sansa, Cercei) are protecting while men (Tyrion) are destroying? I don't think that's true of every character, but maybe it's a little bit of a running motif. Also, the ugliest character here is actually the most destructive, and the beautiful ones are actually protective -- that could come into it, too? Just throwing the thought out there).

She wants to go back home yes but she doesn't want to own it as it were nor does she want to lead it, when she says she wants to go home I think it just means like before someone else is Lord of Winterfell and she just lives there. She sees Winterfell as this ideal place because it reminds her of her family and also of safety so that is where she can finally be home, be safe but you are right she instinctively also wants to protect it; the symbolism of her attacking the doll when it breaks down Winterfell made out of snow, its what represents her family and she needs to protect that. Tyrion of course wants to destroy it because to him it represents his father, his denied claim and how he was never loved.

That is an interesting parallel between Cersei/Sansa, those two have a lot of parallels, with Cersei takes pride in being a Lannister and thinks she would have been a better heir than Tyrion and Jaime so she sees herself as having a right to that land (as opposed to Sansa) but similar to Tyrion. But Cersei's right manifests itself as a desire to preserve and protect because she does love it and hold it sacred rather than destroy it, again she has different experiences with it though. I am not sure what to make of it, the women in the series whatever their mistake; Cersei, Lysa, Catelyn act out of an instinct to protect, they live in a patriarchal society so they act to protect themselves, their family, and their children. Their existence is predicated on those things, Cersei knows much better than Jaime and Tyrion that without her Lannister name she has no power and she also knows that without her children she has no claim to the throne. Of course, Cersei is one side of the coin, someone who is more aware of power dynamics as opposed to Catelyn who primarily acts to protect out of love. But in the end they all act to protect, even Lysa in running away with her kid was acting to protect (it was misguided sure but the intent was protection) Lysa actually has an interesting quote about how a man and woman's honor is different, I don't remember it exactly but she talks about how for a man honor is about battles and for a woman honor is about protecting her child

here it is: A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman’s honor is different. The Mother shaped us to protect our children, and our only dishonor is in failure. You’ll know that, when you have a child.

I have a feeling I have talked about nothing of significance, I don't know if any of this means anything but it might be a theme worth thinking about

I don't know, I think there's something going on where Sansa is protecting Winterfell by sliding her name off of the "deed" and Tyrion is destroying Casterly Rock by plastering his name all over it. I don't know if that means Sansa loves Winterfell but Tyrion doesn't love Casterly Rock, or that they both love their respective claims but Sansa's way of showing love is through protection and Tyrion's is through destruction.

I think Tyrion does love Casterly Rock just like he did love his father but it is a very dysfunctional relationship, Sansa on the other hand has an almost idealized memory of Winterfell now because of her experiences.

But anyway! That was a long ramble to get to the point: Dany is an idiot if she really listens to Tyrion's counsel. If I were her, I'd just use him as a second source to double-check things. Any information coming from Tyrion's mouth, in my mind, would be tainted with the fact that he's constantly going to be working toward *his* interests and that they are very different from hers. He doesn't need to see her in Westeros, he just needs to see someone dead and a ticket home. Everything he says and does will be toward that aim -- and he'll throw Dany under the bus to get those pretty short-term, basic things. Tyrion *is* cunning, but that's why I think Dany would be stupid to give him a chance to say *anything* and mess with her mind -- which doesn't give him too much opportunity to prove himself. I think he'd better hope she lets him out of his cage long enough to ride the dragon to Westeros, and that Aegon is taking King's Landing in the meantime.

Yes, I find it unrealistic that Tyrion can be so easily trusted by Dany but I think its going to come down to how incredibly irreplaceable he is with the dragons and because of that his many misdeeds will be forgotten or ignored. Even with that, Dany still needs to be careful around him and with any counsel he gives because like you mentioned he has his own agenda and it might not always correspond with Dany's.

[Cold Pies]

Regarding Sansa/Tyrion

What I found interesting in their POV's when they were together is that if both had only said what they were thinking they could have gotten on really well. I would never expect romantic love between them but they coud have spent the whole time between their wedding and joffrey's have a good laugh slagging off the whole court together.I would have loved to have seen them both ROFLing as Joffrey was Rolling on the Floor Dying.Hopefully Sansa will get over her fascination with beauty considering it was the hound and Tyrion who kept her safe in their own way and she couldn't look either in the face.

[Silverin]

Regarding Sansa/Tyrion

What I found interesting in their POV's when they were together is that if both had only said what they were thinking they could have gotten on really well. I would never expect romantic love between them but they coud have spent the whole time between their wedding and joffrey's have a good laugh slagging off the whole court together.I would have loved to have seen them both ROFLing as Joffrey was Rolling on the Floor Dying.Hopefully Sansa will get over her fascination with beauty considering it was the hound and Tyrion who kept her safe in their own way and she couldn't look either in the face.

This again? Sansa's dislike or not accepting Tyrion has nothing to do with beauty! She actually has romantic thoughts about Sandor (she remembers a "kiss" that never happened), and he is not a dashing knight.

Tyrion is one of her captors. He is not as big of an asshole as Joff is but he still is a captor. He had the power in ACoK to exchange her and other northmens for Jaime. He didnt even try. He deliberatly sent unacceptable terms to Robb, with the knowledge that he won't accept it, and the escorts that delivered the "terms", were actually sent to free Jaime.

If the Starks would have killed Jaime you can guess two what Tyrion would do to Sansa.

Not to mention the Lannister's were the ones who basically destroyed her family.

If anyone has a problem with fascination with beauty it is Tyrion.

He is the one that cant accpet a woman who is not pretty, and every time he sees a woman that is not dashing he calls them ugly and doesnt even try appreciate them (Like with Lollys, about the marriage proposal to him, he was like LOL no she is fat and ugly, there is no way I marry her..., well Bronn is not that picky and because of that he slowly started to collect quite a power)

[Raksha the Demon]

Tyrion does have issues with beauty; he's not interested in having romantic/carnal relationships with plain-looking women. I imagine that this is a self-esteem/ego issue; he's been called a monster and "Imp" most of his life, so it's a way of showing off and upping his self-esteem that he can have want/seduce/have pretty women. If a young lady who was smart and kind but plain was offered to him in marriage, I doubt that he'd be attracted to her or want her as a wife.

Sansa, in contrast, starts out the series mooning over her Prince Joffrey; and then readjusts her romantic expectations after she finds out first-class that physical beauty and knighthood can mask cruelty. When told that Willas Tyrell is quiet, kind, and intellectual, she emotionally grabs onto the concept of marrying him like a drowning person will to a lifeline; and thinks that even if he is marrying her for Winterfell she will try to be a good wife and make him love her. She was also able to tame the fearsome Hound, who, apart from looking scary, is a loose cannon if I ever saw one; and she imagines that her first kiss was with the Hound, who is a far cry from a storybook knight.

It would be much harder for Tyrion to adjust his requirements for a woman to love than it is for Sansa. Sansa is pretty; and even if she were to marry a plain-looking man or a scarred man, she would still be pretty. Book-Tyrion will always be physically unattractive, whether he loves the fairest woman in Westeros or an ordinary looking girl. We'll know he's capable of change if he ever physically desires or at least can contemplate some kind of romantic/sexual union with Penny that is not motivated by pity or inebriation.

Sansa did reject Tyrion sexually on their wedding night; but only after she had tried, despite being frightened and embarrassed, to find something attractive in his naked form, to try to find him desirable in some way, and found herself pitying him instead. I think Sansa might have been able to have an enjoyable sexual experience with Tyrion if (1) she were two or three years older (2) had been betrothed to him by her own family's wishes and not suddenly shoved into a marriage with him when she was expecting to be wed to Willas Tyrell (and if her own family had never been destroyed by the Lannisters), and (3) if Sansa had gotten to know Tyrion during a long betrothal.

As I've said before, Arya would have made Tyrion a much better wife than Sansa in some respects; again, assuming that the Lannisters had not destroyed her family. Arya would have cared far less than Sansa about Tyrion's physical appearance; she and Tyrion would have enjoyed a lot of sharp-tongued conversation; and Tyrion would probably encouraged Arya to keep up her sword-work. Also, a fourteen-or-fifteen-year-old Arya might have enjoyed being seduced by Tyrion. (However, Arya would be bored silly at court, and wouldn't bother to hold her tongue and would end up insulting Cersei and Tywin as well as Joffrey).

[rue721]

He is the one that cant accpet a woman who is not pretty, and every time he sees a woman that is not dashing he calls them ugly and doesnt even try appreciate them (Like with Lollys, about the marriage proposal to him, he was like LOL no she is fat and ugly, there is no way I marry her..., well Bronn is not that picky and because of that he slowly started to collect quite a power)

Just because he's ugly doesn't mean he has an obligation to get with anyone who wants him.

Likewise, just because she's vulnerable doesn't mean Sansa has an obligation to love anyone who's kind to her (though she might not completely believe that).

If a young lady who was smart and kind but plain was offered to him in marriage, I doubt that he'd be attracted to her or want her as a wife.

I don't know if that's true. I think you're right that he has a "thing" about beauty, but I also think that if he's been able to sleep with the vast numbers of people he apparently has, his standards must not be so high. :P

[littlebird_]

This again? Sansa's dislike or not accepting Tyrion has nothing to do with beauty! She actually has romantic thoughts about Sandor (she remembers a "kiss" that never happened), and he is not a dashing knight.

Unfortunately this is what seems to be what many people come back to!! If only Sansa changed, because the conditions she was in was not problematic at all!

Just because he's ugly doesn't mean he has an obligation to get with anyone who wants him.

Likewise, just because she's vulnerable doesn't mean Sansa has an obligation to love anyone who's kind to her (though she might not completely believe that).

You are right he doesn't have an obligation but it is no secret that Tyrion judges women based on beauty and he can but then when Sansa not being attracted to him based on physical appearance is brought up as a basis for the argument that 'if only she got over that' it does bear mentioning why Sansa has to get over stuff when there is no such demand of the man. Especially since there is evidence that she can be attracted to someone who is not a dashing knight. This is a continuing and never ending 'argument' made about the relationship and its hard to understand why Tyrion having an issue with women is never seen as a problem in the future of the relationship but its all on Sansa and her just 'getting over it'.

Again, you are right, she does not have an obligation to love anyone who is ever kind to her, she can acknowledge the kindness as she has and still not be attracted to the man himself. Though I do think her attraction to Sandor is somewhat related to her feeling safe with him.

[Cold Pies]

Only that it seems a shame that because Tyrion and Sansa are diametricly opposed and if each had learnt from each other, or if they were to team up, their stories would no be so tragic.

[rue721]

it is no secret that Tyrion judges women based on beauty

Oh, I completely agree. The thing is, so what? It *is* superficial to judge people based on appearance, and maybe that makes him unsympathetic or unlikeable -- but he has the right to be superficial if he wants to be. I mean, his prerogative to figure out his own priorities when it comes to who he finds attractive.

Also, it's not like these people are getting with Tyrion for *non* superficial reasons. Lollys mother was like: oh, I can get her married off! Great! It's not like there was some deep and abiding love on Lollys's end, and Tyrion was like "I'm going to be as cruel as possible in my rejection of you, Lollys, just because I'm an ass like that."

I mean, he *is* a superficial ass, but I think it's a little ridiculous to say that he *has* to be grateful for any romantic attention he gets, no matter the reason it's given, and let alone repay it with marriage.

It just always makes me think of how some jackass will try to humiliate a girl after she refuses a drink from him at a bar. It's like, she owes you nothing, loser :).

why Sansa has to get over stuff when there is no such demand of the man.

I agree -- I don't see why Sansa has any obligation to try and be attracted to people she isn't attracted to, either. I think she's always gone above and beyond to try and *not* be superficial, actually. She tries *very* hard to picture these men in the very best possible light -- a much more flattering light then they deserve, imo.

And I think it was admirably brave to say that she didn't want to consummate on her wedding night to Tyrion, and to say that maybe she would never want to. That takes some guts! It would have been a lot easier for her to just lie back and think of Winterfell, but she chose to hold her ideals about love and respect dearer than she held her own safety at that moment. And she was a terrified and harrassed 12-year-old at that point. That shows amazing strength of character, imo.

Also: where does someone like Shae fall in this argument? Isn't the point of a prostitute that she's *entirely* superficial? She's so superficial that even your own body -- let alone your actual self -- doesn't matter. If anything, in terms of Sansa acting/being "attracted" to Tyrion, I think the issue was that Sansa wasn't superficial *enough.*

I do think her attraction to Sandor is somewhat related to her feeling safe with him.

That's what I mean about Sansa perhaps feeling obligated to be "in love" with anyone who she trusts and/or respects. Not to say that it would be impossible for anyone to be attracted to Sandor, etc, but I think that Sansa's feelings for him are just about her still putting "love" and "savior" in the same mental box. She can trust and care about Sandor (or anyone) without it being romantic. But I don't think she's learned that yet -- I think she's still trying to keep things in their nice little "courtly romance" boxes. Hence the imagined kiss.

Tyrion having an issue with women is never seen as a problem in the future of the relationship

To be honest, I would guess that it would be impossible for Tyrion to be in a mutually enjoyable romantic relationship. Can you imagine? I'd predict: constant need for reassurance, constant need for control (--> manipulation), constant desire to flaunt the woman. The fact that he's never been with a woman he hasn't paid for (including Tysha) can't be a good thing in terms of how he understands love. I would guess that he would feel insecure in a relationship in which he doesn't perpetually have the upper hand and in which he doesn't know exactly what the woman wants out of it (like X amount of money).

Also, the thing with the women's beauty, imo, isn't actually about their beauty. I think it's a way of creating a beautiful reflection of *himself* for him and the world to see. A beautiful woman saying she wants him makes him feel beautiful, because...the mental image I get is of his image being reflected in the beautiful woman's eyes -- and in that way, his image sort of becomes a part of her beauty, and her beauty sort of envelopes him? Does that make sense? Maybe not :P. I think, though, that he'd also want everyone else to see that beautiful reflection of him, too, so he'd likely want to flaunt the woman who makes him feel not-ugly. But, of course, in public the fantasy wouldn't hold up and he'd feel ugly again -- and at that point, his anger would turn toward the woman's looks, which apparently weren't beautiful enough to mask his ugliness. I think that *in private* even a relatively plain woman is going to be beautiful enough to make him feel beautiful -- because even then, she's going to be more beautiful than he is, and will convince him that he's not *so* ugly. And I think *in public* no woman will ever be beautiful enough, because the fantasy will still implode and he'll still feel ugly.

I also think that you can replace "beautiful" with "love-able" and "ugly" with "rejected" and it would all hold up much better, actually. And I could go off on another ramble about *that* and his preference for prostitutes/women who have been around the block, but...I don't even know. I mean, he picks up a woman who has presumably not been with anyone (Tysha), and makes her a "whore," and then he picks up a woman who is a whore (Shae), and isolates her in a little special hidey hole and tries to make her only live for him. I don't even know where to start with that.

And no, I don't know where Sansa falls into all that, but I'm glad she hasn't had to figure it out! Poor girl should only have to bear so much.

[Dio Forel]

You are right he doesn't have an obligation but it is no secret that Tyrion judges women based on beauty and he can but then when Sansa not being attracted to him based on physical appearance is brought up as a basis for the argument that 'if only she got over that' it does bear mentioning why Sansa has to get over stuff when there is no such demand of the man. Especially since there is evidence that she can be attracted to someone who is not a dashing knight. This is a continuing and never ending 'argument' made about the relationship and its hard to understand why Tyrion having an issue with women is never seen as a problem in the future of the relationship but its all on Sansa and her just 'getting over it'.

Again, you are right, she does not have an obligation to love anyone who is ever kind to her, she can acknowledge the kindness as she has and still not be attracted to the man himself. Though I do think her attraction to Sandor is somewhat related to her feeling safe with him.

Tyrion judges women he is buying to sleep with based on looks. I would want quality for my coin too. It isn't really the same as saying it is okay for Tyrion to do it and not Sansa because the circumstances are different. Sansa and Tyrion were put together for political purposes. If Tyrion was forced to marry an unattractive woman then we could see if he could get past the looks for the sake of the union. It isn't all on Sansa. I think that's where it actually counts. After they were joined then I could definitely understand his frustration about her being able to get over it. If they are to be together it is all about making the best of it for both of them.

If they were just two strangers meeting then Sansa can turn him down and be repulsed by him all she wants, there would be no obligation for her to 'get over it', and vice versa. Like with the dwarf Penny. Tyrion has no desire for her whatsoever physically yet he still entertains her desires to make her feel better. He somewhat 'got over it' for her sake. If they were forced to wed for whatever reason, I'm sure he would get over it and make the best of it as much as he can.

[KhalRhaego]

I think that Sansa will come to appreciate Tyrion soon enough. At least he never forced himself on her. Littlefinger is getting creepier and creepier and definitely wants her for himself. He just hasn't figured out a way to reconcile keeping her with his plans to take over the world yet. Ultimately I think Littlefinger's obsession with Catelyn that he's now projecting onto her daughter is going to be his downfall. I don't think he'd planned to kill Lysa quite yet, or without a plan, but he risked doing so for just an unwanted kiss. I think that when Sansa has more of a chance to observe Littlefinger she's going to realize how lucky she was that Tyrion actually cared enough to respect the fact that she didn't want him and that he took no for an answer. I don't think she'd going to have that luxury with LF.

[littlebird_]

Oh, I completely agree. The thing is, so what? It *is* superficial to judge people based on appearance, and maybe that makes him unsympathetic or unlikeable -- but he has the right to be superficial if he wants to be. I mean, his prerogative to figure out his own priorities when it comes to who he finds attractive.

Also, it's not like these people are getting with Tyrion for *non* superficial reasons. Lollys mother was like: oh, I can get her married off! Great! It's not like there was some deep and abiding love on Lollys's end, and Tyrion was like "I'm going to be as cruel as possible in my rejection of you, Lollys, just because I'm an ass like that."

I mean, he *is* a superficial ass, but I think it's a little ridiculous to say that he *has* to be grateful for any romantic attention he gets, no matter the reason it's given, and let alone repay it with marriage.

It just always makes me think of how some jackass will try to humiliate a girl after she refuses a drink from him at a bar. It's like, she owes you nothing, loser :).

No I agree, my reaction has in itself a lot frustration with constantly people bringing up Sansa not being mature enough to handle being married to a dwarf and as a reaction to that my primary response it well guess what Tyrion is superficial also. It is something either forgiven or forgotten by many whereas Sansa's is constantly referred to as the source of the problem and there is a double standard there that I find frustrating.

That aside, I don't think there is anything wrong with Tyrion being superficial, my love for Tyrion derives from how imperfect her is as a character so I enjoy it but like I said if it is ignored at the expense of putting all the responsibility on only Sansa, I do use it as an argument against him because its not a fault of his many seem to acknowledge.

And I think Tyrion does realize his insecurities on the matter, he does know why Lollys wants him, he does know why the whores want him deep down he knows all of this but then he comes to Shae and tries to fool himself into thinking there can be something more. Again, the dude has issues.

I agree -- I don't see why Sansa has any obligation to try and be attracted to people she isn't attracted to, either. I think she's always gone above and beyond to try and *not* be superficial, actually. She tries *very* hard to picture these men in the very best possible light -- a much more flattering light then they deserve, imo.

And I think it was admirably brave to say that she didn't want to consummate on her wedding night to Tyrion, and to say that maybe she would never want to. That takes some guts! It would have been a lot easier for her to just lie back and think of Winterfell, but she chose to hold her ideals about love and respect dearer than she held her own safety at that moment. And she was a terrified and harrassed 12-year-old at that point. That shows amazing strength of character, imo.

Exactly, she does try very hard with all these men and as a child herself it seems unfair that Sansa herself is going to fix all their issues with women just by being attracted to them. Tyrion, Sandor and even or maybe especially Littlefinger have serious issues, none of them were caused by Sansa and as kind as they might be to her she can not solve their issues.

I think that Sansa is actually the one woman who is very honest with Tyrion, she is not attracted to him, she could as many women have done before her lie to him and tell him she's attracted to him and use him and his feelings to her advantage but she doesn't, yes she's brutally honest but he's holding her hostage so she gets a right to be defiant if she wishes and she's defying him not knowing how he'll react, he might beat her up but she defies him nonetheless, its one of her few moments of agency and she takes it. I can't fault her for that.

That's what I mean about Sansa perhaps feeling obligated to be "in love" with anyone who she trusts and/or respects. Not to say that it would be impossible for anyone to be attracted to Sandor, etc, but I think that Sansa's feelings for him are just about her still putting "love" and "savior" in the same mental box. She can trust and care about Sandor (or anyone) without it being romantic. But I don't think she's learned that yet -- I think she's still trying to keep things in their nice little "courtly romance" boxes. Hence the imagined kiss.

I was actually talking about the kiss in another thread and I think the addition of the kiss is more complex than having something fit her idea of romance but yes I think it does have something to do with being saved, she has identified Sandor as the man she feels the most safe with, at this point in her life I think this is what she values most in someone, not looks precisely but whether or not that man will keep her safe and not threaten Winterfell. The thing is as kind as Tyrion was he couldn't do either of those things. He was keeping her hostage (unsafe) and he was marrying her for her claim thus threatening to put a Lannister in Winterfell.

To be honest, I would guess that it would be impossible for Tyrion to be in a mutually enjoyable romantic relationship. Can you imagine? I'd predict: constant need for reassurance, constant need for control (--> manipulation), constant desire to flaunt the woman. The fact that he's never been with a woman he hasn't paid for (including Tysha) can't be a good thing in terms of how he understands love. I would guess that he would feel insecure in a relationship in which he doesn't perpetually have the upper hand and in which he doesn't know exactly what the woman wants out of it (like X amount of money).

Yes, Tyrion would actually be incapable of having a 'normal' relationship. He has a need to be reassured and the woman herself I think will always be under some unstated pressure, one wrong word that hurts his feelings, one wrong movement, its all going to be understood by him through the filter of his own appearance, did she look at this knight a little too long because she likes looking at tall men? thoughts like these will never leave him

If Tyrion was forced to marry an unattractive woman then we could see if he could get past the looks for the sake of the union. It isn't all on Sansa. I think that's where it actually counts. After they were joined then I could definitely understand his frustration about her being able to get over it. If they are to be together it is all about making the best of it for both of them.

It isn't about making the best of it for both of them, Tyrion is in a castle ruled by his family living a decent life and Sansa is a hostage and her family is being killed by his family. This isn't a life she wants, she is a hostage who wants to escape. This is a marriage she was forced into by her enemies, why should she make the most of it, why should she yield, why should she just accept her fate?

[rue721]

She wants to go back home yes but she doesn't want to own it as it were nor does she want to lead it, when she says she wants to go home I think it just means like before someone else is Lord of Winterfell and she just lives there.

You're absolutely right. I realize now that I forgot all about the whole component of "ownership" that can be a part of love.

I wonder if the reason that Sansa doesn't need to own or destroy Winterfell is because she thinks of it (/idealizes it) as a place of freedom and protection? Maybe she remembers it as a place where she felt relatively free and protected, so she is free with its ownership and protective toward it now. It wouldn't surprise me if she felt that way, since ever since she left, she's been treated as a piece of property and has been in constant danger. Maybe if she were to *not* treat it in a free-handed, protective way, it would crush her hope that freedom and safety exist? If that's the case, I would think that her attitude toward Winterfell (and her memories/fantasies of Winterfell) is a way of reminding herself that she does have the hope of being treated as a person (not a piece of property) and that she will be safe one day -- that the possibility still exists, as long as Winterfell exists and she honors its memory.

Likewise, maybe in terms of Tyrion's treatment of Casterly Rock works the same way -- his fixation on ownership of it, and destructiveness toward it = feeling owned and destroyed by it. And I guess maybe that's what he *wants* to feel (owned).

...I went on and on about this, though, and thought it would be more appropriate in the "Tyrion and the Lannisters" thread (so it's all there, if you're interested). Because apparently I am on a Tyrion kick at the moment. I promise, once I understand what's going on in the other chapters clearly enough to discuss them, I will move on! :P And in the meantime, I don't want to fill the entire "Sansa and Tyrion" thread with off-topic tangents :). The above is probably the part most applicable to the comparison between him and Sansa.

[rue721]

I think the addition of the kiss is more complex than having something fit her idea of romance but yes I think it does have something to do with being saved

Yes, I agree -- it is more complex (though I think that the stories have reinforced what the world wants Sansa to understand about her place in it as a woman). I think, at heart, the issue is that Sansa thinks that the thing most valuable about herself is her desirability as a "maiden" archetype. So when she sees someone playing a part she thinks is valuable (such as: "knight in shining armor") she immediately takes the part of love-struck maiden in order to reciprocate.

Sansa, because of her birth, beauty, and personality, is a kind of "trophy" to the men of her world. Her bestowing a "favor" (such as a kiss) on Sandor is her way of awarding him the trophy (of herself).

It's the only thing of value she has to give him. And, luckily/unluckily for her, in her world it actually has tremendous value.

I think the horrible part of it, for Sansa as an individual, is that Sansa still thinks she owes it to the man to not only give him a symbol of the "trophy" he's won, she also thinks she has to feel the feelings along with it.

[Wouter]

I'd already say that Tyrion's intentions in going to Dany are not "pure" -- he wants her to get rid of Cercei in order to get rid of the death sentence on his head, and I'm sure if she threw in some gold to pay off the sell-swords and give him passage to Westeros, he wouldn't say no to that, either.

[...]

As I said before, I think Aegon would be a fool not to kill Dany once he's secured the throne, but that wouldn't matter for Tyrion at that point, since he's hopefully proven his worth to both of them separately.

Nobody's intentions for going to Dany are 100% "pure", not even Barristans. They all want something from her, and many of her potential advisors and allies (like Marwyn, for example, or Quentyn and Victarion) will also have their own agendas they want to push. Tyrion will not be coy about the rewards he wants I think, and as long as he is honest about that then what is the problem? Nothing in his thoughts indicates he doesn't genuinely want Dany to gain the throne - this is in line with his own interests and also emotionally he will connect to the idea of the dragons.

Regarding your idea for Aegon (who I think is fake, but doesn't realise so himself); to kill Dany once he secures the throne would kinslaying, murder and treason of the lowest sort. The kind of action that Freys or Boltons or Tywin would take. He wants to marry her, not kill her. I think Aegon wants to be a better man than that.

But anyway! That was a long ramble to get to the point: Dany is an idiot if she really listens to Tyrion's counsel. If I were her, I'd just use him as a second source to double-check things. Any information coming from Tyrion's mouth, in my mind, would be tainted with the fact that he's constantly going to be working toward *his* interests and that they are very different from hers. He doesn't need to see her in Westeros, he just needs to see someone dead and a ticket home.

I completely disagree. Tyrion doesn't want to go to Westeros with a measly 500 sellswords in tow (who can turn on him at any moment, anyway, Ben Brown Plumm is a known flip-flop) to go fight against the might of Casterly Rock, even if the rest of the Iron Throne forces are busy containing Aegon. His ambitions go further than that anyway: he wants to ride a dragon, his dream since childhood. No, I think Tyrion wants to go to Westeros as the right hand of this dragon queen and with his rewards and his worth for her well understood between them. Dany taking the throne, married with Aegon if practical, is an ideal outcome for him as she'll grant her loyal ally Casterly rock and the means to take it if necessary.

I think listening to Tyrion is far from idiotic, he knows a lot (especially about dragons and about westeros) and he is very clever. Sure, she shouldn't blindly trust him but then that's true of all her advisors. Tyrion's interests aren't very different from Dany's, though. Both want vengeance on (some) Lannisters. Both want what they see as their birthright (iron throne and Casterly rock, respectively). Both want to ride dragons. She has already saved his life once, and I think Tyrion will prove himself in the struggle for Meereen early in TWOW. Quite possibly, Tyrion is a Targaryen scion. I think they will get along just fine and he'll be loyal to her - until, maybe, Jaime comes in the picture.

I honestly don't know how he can paint treachery in a positive light. In Dany's eyes, his brother is a traitor (for killing Dany's father), if he spills about the incest then his sister is a traitor (for supplanting Robert's line with a line of Lannisters), and he's a traitor (for "killing" his nephew and killing his father).

Simple: he will finally tell her what nobody has dared to tell her yet (or wanted to, in some cases): exactly what Aerys did and why the war started. He only needs to ask Barristan if he would have done anything different if he had been Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark, and Barristan (who is at least honest) would not be able to say he wouldn't have done what they did (Robert is a bit different because of the Targ kids).

I also don't know if Tyrion working against Dany would be a "betrayal." What connection does he really have to her? He might be in her employ for a little while, but I don't think that means he owes her more loyalty than he owes his family.

What connection did Mirri Maz Duur have with Dany? What connection does Brown Ben Plumm have with Dany? Do you think Dany doesn't see either one as betrayal?

Anyway, if Tyrion becomes a dragon rider (and really, we have been waiting for this since AGOT pretty much spelled it out) then they will be close. Dany will likely come to trust him, possible genuinely like him.

I agree that it would be stupid for her to get all up in Tyrion's face randomly, and force him to do something to shut her down. But I think it would be useful for *both* of them if they were to make a big show of how that alliance between the Lannisters and Starks is completely severed. If it were to help Sansa in the North, and Tyrion helped her secure her place there through some kind of sacrifice (such as a loss of pride, by letting her publicly/metaphorically spit on him) then she would owe him. Like I said, I think probably they could make a big public show of slowly rebuilding their alliance, and after a while has passed she could repay him, such as by sending one of her bannermen's daughters to be his wife.

How could Sansa, who is not willing to marry Tyrion herself, force someone else to do so? Any other noble girls wouldn't want to marry Tyrion either, and Sansa really isn't going to twist their arms to do so after she has tasted that dish herself (nor would she even if she hadn't experienced such "joy" as her wedding to Tyrion). Tyrion is able to come up with a marriage for himself if he wants to, anyway. Sansa didn't find Tysha nor Shae nor Penny for him.

There also never was an alliance between Lannisters and Starks (well, except against the Greyjoys both in Dunk and Eggs' time and during Balon's first rebellion). In the rebellion against Aerys, Tywin was basically "the late lord Tywin" who killed children because he was extremely late to Robert's cause. In the present series of wars, the Lannisters murdered the head of the Stark family and then waged a very destructive war on his children and the lands of the family of his wife. If Dany doesn't understand that this means Stark and Lannister hate each other, then nothing would convince her. Tyrion will not be seen as a Lannister by her anyway if things happen the way I think they will, and Dany probably won't focus her ire on young Stark girls either, because of Lyanna and because in general she can't be angry with children.

I don't see how being even *more* lethal would be reassuring to Dany.

It would be rather reassuring for Dany is she comes 'home' to Meereen with the Yunkai'i and other slaver forces defeated, killed, captured, fled or having defected to her ranks, and with the harpy caught and ready to be delivered to her for judgment. If Tyrion can manage to play a big role in that (verified by Barristan, Jorah,...) she would be grateful and impressed by that, in spite of her distrust for Lannisters. That he helped Jorah will be a plus in her book I think, because I doubt she will remain angry with him when she sees him in his present state.

On the other hand, if he manages to tame and/or ride one of the dragons, she may *have* to use him. And if not, he can just hijack one of the tame!dragons and take it right to Aegon to help his battles. That's if she gives him a shot to get to the dragons, though (which, knowing these books, she will. If only as a trial or even as part of a death sentence).

Now, stealing/riding a dragon off to Westeros to help Aegon is something Tyrion could conceivably do - but I suppose Dany will be about ready to leave anyway, by that time, and going together with her reaches the same goal and doesn't earn him her undying enmity. I think he has enough enemies without making an extremely powerful new one, if she already is going to Westeros and taking him along anyway.

I'm more interested in what Tyrion tells Daenerys of Jon Snow, if anything at all. Realistically, he is probably the only character acquainted with Jon that Daenerys will meet before she meets Jon herself. So my take away is that her impressions of Jon -- those she has before meeting him anyway -- will be formed on the basis of whatever Tyrion might say about him. What he says about Sansa seems inconsequential in comparison. What he says about Jaime might determine whether the latter is roasted alive by a dragon or not. Cersei, of course, is screwed either way, although Tyrion won't help her situation any.

What Tyrion says (or doesn't say) about Sansa is important because he is threading on dangerous ground her in relation to Dany's reaction; she may take it very ill if she learns he forced a 12-year old captive to marry him, so he could take her father's lands for himself. Sansa was pretty much treated as property here.

As for Jon, that may be interesting but while Tyrion knew him reasonably well it was only AGOT Jon and he will probably only really come up in conversation if they start discussing the Wall. I suppose Marwyn, through Sam and the glass candles, actually will know a lot more about Jon as he is aware of later developments.