[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[littlebird_]

You're absolutely right. I realize now that I forgot all about the whole component of "ownership" that can be a part of love.

I wonder if the reason that Sansa doesn't need to own or destroy Winterfell is because she thinks of it (/idealizes it) as a place of freedom and protection? Maybe she remembers it as a place where she felt relatively free and protected, so she is free with its ownership and protective toward it now. It wouldn't surprise me if she felt that way, since ever since she left, she's been treated as a piece of property and has been in constant danger. Maybe if she were to *not* treat it in a free-handed, protective way, it would crush her hope that freedom and safety exist? If that's the case, I would think that her attitude toward Winterfell (and her memories/fantasies of Winterfell) is a way of reminding herself that she does have the hope of being treated as a person (not a piece of property) and that she will be safe one day -- that the possibility still exists, as long as Winterfell exists and she honors its memory.

Likewise, maybe in terms of Tyrion's treatment of Casterly Rock works the same way -- his fixation on ownership of it, and destructiveness toward it = feeling owned and destroyed by it. And I guess maybe that's what he *wants* to feel (owned).

The most important part of it is that Sansa has no ambitions on her own, she has no aspirations for power so her relationship to everything is based on either love or hate and as a consequence she doesn't have any desire to 'own' what she loves, she just needs it to be safe. It is different from say Cersei who loves her kids but also claims ownership and/or power over them, for Sansa it is not about ownership, she has no claims over Winterfell and doesn't want have claim or power over it, she just wants to protect it. Which is interesting when put with the symbolism of sweetrobin having his doll attack the snow castle because then she attacks you, she doesn't loose it over sweetrobin being a petulant child or over Lysa being mean to her, she looses it when he attacks Winterfell. I think that mirrors her life at the Eyrie, she is content with her life as it is but what happens when someone threatens Winterfell? She has a very emotional connection to it I think because like you said she was free there, no claims were being made on her and she was not someone's pawn so its a place of freedom and as long as it exists in her head she can find some peace in her memories.

With Tyrion it is a constant reminder that he wasn't good enough, he wants to own it, he wants to destroy it, he just wants it. There is a certain pettiness there, if I can't have it no one can kind of attitude that can become dangerous because he is angry and resentful towards it.

Sansa, because of her birth, beauty, and personality, is a kind of "trophy" to the men of her world. Her bestowing a "favor" (such as a kiss) on Sandor is her way of awarding him the trophy (of herself).

It's the only thing of value she has to give him. And, luckily/unluckily for her, in her world it actually has tremendous value.

I think the horrible part of it, for Sansa as an individual, is that Sansa still thinks she owes it to the man to not only give him a symbol of the "trophy" he's won, she also thinks she has to feel the feelings along with it.

This is interesting and I never did look at it this way but you are right she does unfortunately feel obligated and the kiss might have been her way of giving him his trophy for being a good knight and she does mention how she gave him a kiss and he left her a cloak the underlying assumption might be if I gave him a kiss as a reward why didn't he save me?

...I went on and on about this, though, and thought it would be more appropriate in the "Tyrion and the Lannisters" thread (so it's all there, if you're interested). Because apparently I am on a Tyrion kick at the moment. I promise, once I understand what's going on in the other chapters clearly enough to discuss them, I will move on! :P And in the meantime, I don't want to fill the entire "Sansa and Tyrion" thread with off-topic tangents :). The above is probably the part most applicable to the comparison between him and Sansa.

I replied to your post in that thread also :D I always feel like the subtle themes present in the stories of major characters such as identity are more telling about where their characters might lead.

I have no idea what it means but I realized yesterday talking in another thread that robin represents the coming of spring :dunno: And the falcon represents freedom so these two will have something to do with Sansa's Littlefinger arc

also I was looking through some of Sansa's chapters and in AFFC Littlefinger states : The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa’s safely widowed.

So he still is quite confident at the end of AFFC that he is going to kill Tyrion? Do we know where in the timeline this coincides to Tyrion in ADWD?

[Silverin]

also I was looking through some of Sansa's chapters and in AFFC Littlefinger states : The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa’s safely widowed.

So he still is quite confident at the end of AFFC that he is going to kill Tyrion? Do we know where in the timeline this coincides to Tyrion in ADWD?

Crackpot theory.

Maybe he is a greenseer. He has grey-green eyes after all. Maybe that is why he is short because he has some CotF blood. That is why he is so succesful because he has prophetyc dreams. Since prophecies are quite blurry maybe he sometimes missinterprets them. Maybe he saw Tyrion dying from the greyscale?

(I think Tyrion has that, as Val said, you cant stop it, cure it. It would be pretty ugh if he who was in that river for quite long time didnt catch it while Jon Connington who jumped in, saved his life caught it righ away. I say that is too much of a luckstruck Tyrion would have. I think it is just sleeping in him because the tretment he recieved from the septa, just like because of the maesters treatment Shireen's slowed down and seemed to stop as well.)

Well I hope the LF is a greenseer is really crackpot. As much as I hate him and want him die, I still admire him because in this world where parantege and magical abilities seems to be so important for succes he managed to make his way without either of them. Giving him greenseer abilities would loosen that.

[Wouter]

Sansa, in contrast, starts out the series mooning over her Prince Joffrey; and then readjusts her romantic expectations after she finds out first-class that physical beauty and knighthood can mask cruelty. When told that Willas Tyrell is quiet, kind, and intellectual, she emotionally grabs onto the concept of marrying him like a drowning person will to a lifeline; and thinks that even if he is marrying her for Winterfell she will try to be a good wife and make him love her. She was also able to tame the fearsome Hound, who, apart from looking scary, is a loose cannon if I ever saw one; and she imagines that her first kiss was with the Hound, who is a far cry from a storybook knight.

Indeed. The idea that Sansa only appreciates beautiful people as of ASOS is bizarre; she fantasises about ugly Sandor, she is determined to like Willas even if he might look like Mace and in AFFC she is quite fascinated with Lothor Brune and thinks he would be good for Mya - and in contrast, she seems wary about Harry the Heir (her experiences with charming princes are not good so far, after all).

She definitely likes hideous Tyrion better than Cersei too.

Sansa did reject Tyrion sexually on their wedding night; but only after she had tried, despite being frightened and embarrassed, to find something attractive in his naked form, to try to find him desirable in some way, and found herself pitying him instead. I think Sansa might have been able to have an enjoyable sexual experience with Tyrion if (1) she were two or three years older (2) had been betrothed to him by her own family's wishes and not suddenly shoved into a marriage with him when she was expecting to be wed to Willas Tyrell (and if her own family had never been destroyed by the Lannisters), and (3) if Sansa had gotten to know Tyrion during a long betrothal.

I agree. Sansa is so dutiful and in control of herself that she possibly could have make it work anyway, if only this had been arranged by herself or her family, she had gotten the opportunity to get to appreciate Tyrion's qualities (not as a captive to him, obviously) and to get gradually used and accepting of the idea of marrying him. And if she had some sexual experience, because right now she is quite terrified of sex in general I think, unless she would be able to have complete trust in her partner. Sansa is simply a bit too young yet for sex, too young to marry.

I do think Tyrion still wants her, though. He thinks of her as the "child bride he lost", seemingly without malice. If you lose something, normally you'd want to find it again don't you? If he had seen her building the snow castle, I suppose he would have been struck emotionally by that as well.

I wonder if he would still tend to be protective of her (to outsiders), like he upended the wine pitcher right after Joffrey's death.

It isn't about making the best of it for both of them, Tyrion is in a castle ruled by his family living a decent life and Sansa is a hostage and her family is being killed by his family. This isn't a life she wants, she is a hostage who wants to escape. This is a marriage she was forced into by her enemies, why should she make the most of it, why should she yield, why should she just accept her fate?

Very true. Sansa had every right to give him the "icy and unyielding wall" treatment.

However, Sansa was also able to resist him in her own (but effective) way because she knew her escape was in the works. If she was to come in a situation where she genuinely felt there was no way out or she comes to see it as her duty to go along (to help others she cares about, like her family), she could come to make it work (given the changed circumstances - that is to say, there would be a clear practical upside to the wedding for her or her family - and a few years to develop her sexuality and get used to the idea), if anyone could.

[littlebird_]

Crackpot theory.

Maybe he is a greenseer. He has grey-green eyes after all. Maybe that is why he is short because he has some CotF blood. That is why he is so succesful because he has prophetyc dreams. Since prophecies are quite blurry maybe he sometimes missinterprets them. Maybe he saw Tyrion dying from the greyscale?

(I think Tyrion has that, as Val said, you cant stop it, cure it. It would be pretty ugh if he who was in that river for quite long time didnt catch it while Jon Connington who jumped in, saved his life caught it righ away. I say that is too much of a luckstruck Tyrion would have. I think it is just sleeping in him because the tretment he recieved from the septa, just like because of the maesters treatment Shireen's slowed down and seemed to stop as well.)

Well I hope the LF is a greenseer is really crackpot. As much as I hate him and want him die, I still admire him because in this world where parantege and magical abilities seems to be so important for succes he managed to make his way without either of them. Giving him greenseer abilities would loosen that.

Haha, I like this, Littlefinger knows everything just gets a new meaning :D

my crackpot theory is that sweetrobin is more important than he seems, robin represents the coming of Spring, he is obsessed with the Winged Knight, there is a part in AFFC where Randa is jokingly asking Alayne whether or not she is interested in a squire and he reacts by saying she's MY friend, don't count little robin out yet, he is going to ride a falcon and become the winged knight :D or maybe he is the third head the dragon :D he is meant for great things!!

However, Sansa was also able to resist him in her own (but effective) way because she knew her escape was in the works. If she was to come in a situation where she genuinely felt there was no way out or she comes to see it as her duty to go along (to help others she cares about, like her family), she could come to make it work (given the changed circumstances - that is to say, there would be a clear practical upside to the wedding for her or her family - and a few years to develop her sexuality and get used to the idea), if anyone could.

I agree completely, she felt like she had a way out so she didn't try to make it work but her reaction would have been different if there was no way out. She would have tried more to at least make her life easier in the long run. More so if there had been an incentive for her in the marriage, as it stood, Sansa was not getting anything out of it, Tyrion was getting Winterfell, Sansa on the other hand is just getting news of dead family members. If there had been an agreement that as long as she was married to Tyrion peace would be established and the Starks would get Winterfell she would have tried. As it was it didn't offer her any advantages to try especially if she could escape. what conditions Sansa's reaction mainly is the context of the situation rather than Tyrion himself, if she can escape of course she won't try she will escape, if she can not she will try. This isn't primarily about her feelings about Tyrion but her situation as a hostage.

I do think Tyrion still wants her, though. He thinks of her as the "child bride he lost", seemingly without malice. If you lose something, normally you'd want to find it again don't you? If he had seen her building the snow castle, I suppose he would have been struck emotionally by that as well.

I wonder if he would still tend to be protective of her (to outsiders), like he upended the wine pitcher right after Joffrey's death.

I didn't get that impression, he doesn't think of her with as much hate as Shae or Jaime but that is a reaction to the love her felt/feels for them, towards Sansa mostly he just seemed indifferent to me.

[rue721]

As it was it didn't offer her any advantages to try especially if she could escape.

Considering Tyrion was perpetually under his father's, and to some extent, Cercei's thumb, and all three of them are ruthless as hell and put the Lannister family first (which I highly doubt included Sansa, in their opinion), I think Sansa's decision to try and escape was for the best. It was safer than staying!

In that case, making it much more emotionally and legally complex by actually sleeping with Tyrion would have been a huge mistake.

So even if she'd thought Tyrion the most attractive man possible and didn't have a huge problem with everything about her circumstances, as long as she was planning to flee it would have been foolish to consummate the marriage. Why muddy the waters when you can get out of there clean, with an annulment possible and a maidenhead intact?

I didn't get that impression, he doesn't think of her with as much hate as Shae or Jaime but that is a reaction to the love her felt/feels for them, towards Sansa mostly he just seemed indifferent to me.

I don't think he was ever too attached to her as an individual person (they didn't know each other too well), but I think he was proud of the marriage, thought it was a helpful match, and definitely would have wanted it to work happily. From his end, the match is the best possible one that could happen -- a beautiful and kind girl with a useful claim? How could he do better?

And it seems to me that during any negotiations, Tyrion didn't really want to let her go. He didn't even really want to use her as a bargaining chip with the Starks. And when he was meeting with the Red Viper, he was thinking about how useful it would be to still have her with him. He was musing about how maybe if he had Sansa at his side, the North would aide Dorne and he'd be part of a glorious new regime. I don't think he cared about Sansa as a person, but I think he wanted to keep her as his wife.

And, if they'd been matched with Ned's approval, etc, then I do think Sansa would have tried much harder and somehow forced herself to at least *make herself believe* that it was working out. But Tyrion and Sansa would never have been matched up with Ned's approval. Maybe it was a lie, but I believe Tywin when he says no other house was willing to take Tyrion's hand. He sounds like he was also in despair about that as soon as Tyrion was born, since he tried to match a deformed, motherless infant with a teenage girl (there are so many things wrong with that idea, I can't even). He would have gotten Tyrion warded and married somewhere if it had been at all possible, I would think.

I'm glad they didn't get a chance to work things out, though. I think Tyrion would be a frightening husband. This is someone who murdered a girl with his bare hands because she made him feel humiliated at the wrong time. I think someone as young and naive as Sansa still was then would have been thoroughly screwed up by trying to mold herself into someone who could make Tyrion happy. And I don't even know how he would feel about Sansa's attempts to be a good wife. Speaking of trying to grow up in the viper pit that is a Lannister houehold, god even knows what goes on in Tommen's little head. How is he so sweet?

[littlebird_]

Considering Tyrion was perpetually under his father's, and to some extent, Cercei's thumb, and all three of them are ruthless as hell and put the Lannister family first (which I highly doubt included Sansa, in their opinion), I think Sansa's decision to try and escape was for the best. It was safer than staying!

In that case, making it much more emotionally and legally complex by actually sleeping with Tyrion would have been a huge mistake.

Yes, if she could get out of the situation and on top of it ensure she might still remain a maiden why not do it? She was forced into the marriage, she's going to take whatever freedom she has in it.

I don't think he was ever too attached to her as an individual person (they didn't know each other too well), but I think he was proud of the marriage, thought it was a helpful match, and definitely would have wanted it to work happily. From his end, the match is the best possible one that could happen -- a beautiful and kind girl with a useful claim? How could he do better?

And it seems to me that during any negotiations, Tyrion didn't really want to let her go. He didn't even really want to use her as a bargaining chip with the Starks. And when he was meeting with the Red Viper, he was thinking about how useful it would be to still have her with him. He was musing about how maybe if he had Sansa at his side, the North would aide Dorne and he'd be part of a glorious new regime. I don't think he cared about Sansa as a person, but I think he wanted to keep her as his wife.

Yes, he definitely isn't attached to her as a person and is primarily about the claim (and this is what Sansa despises in anyone, I think one of the reasons she has a 'crush' on Sandor is that he is the only man who has not used her for her claim) so it all depends on if he needs her claim again, if he does he might insist on the marriage but if he doesn't need it I think he'll be kind enough to let her go or maybe I that is my hope from him, don't know if Tyrion will deliver :D

I'm glad they didn't get a chance to work things out, though. I think Tyrion would be a frightening husband. This is someone who murdered a girl with his bare hands because she made him feel humiliated at the wrong time. I think someone as young and naive as Sansa still was then would have been thoroughly screwed up by trying to mold herself into someone who could make Tyrion happy. And I don't even know how he would feel about Sansa's attempts to be a good wife. Speaking of trying to grow up in the viper pit that is a Lannister houehold, god even knows what goes on in Tommen's little head. How is he so sweet?

This is why I find that Sansa might not be high on his list of people I am going to kill, because they didn't form a relationship, if they had and he felt that she had lied to him about loving him she would have been next on his to kill list. He has issues with woman wronging him and making him feel humiliated, Sansa barely escapes the kind of hatred Shae creates in him because she was clear there was no affection involved. Considering the way he constructed his relationship with Shae in his mind, even a smile or two would have been dangerous from Sansa. Not that she knew but she was just lucky he never made himself believe she had affection for him so her escape didn't feel like a direct betrayal of his feelings.

[Wouter]

In that case, making it much more emotionally and legally complex by actually sleeping with Tyrion would have been a huge mistake.

Sansa would never have willingly slept with Tyrion as a 12 year old in that situation, not even if she had no hope to escape. She would probably have attempted to really talk with him though, whereas know she blocked off all attempts from him to get her to talk about something. She would not have ignored his proposal to go to Braavos, because at least that would take her out of Joff's power. That's a lot better than staying penned up in KL, and it might have offered options for escaping later as I guess Tyrion couldn't really have her guarded in Braavos, not anything like the way she was watched in KL.

It isn't about making the best of it for both of them, Tyrion is in a castle ruled by his family living a decent life and Sansa is a hostage and her family is being killed by his family. This isn't a life she wants, she is a hostage who wants to escape. This is a marriage she was forced into by her enemies, why should she make the most of it, why should she yield, why should she just accept her fate?

Obviously she shouldn't and she didn't.

I don't think he was ever too attached to her as an individual person (they didn't know each other too well), but I think he was proud of the marriage, thought it was a helpful match, and definitely would have wanted it to work happily. From his end, the match is the best possible one that could happen -- a beautiful and kind girl with a useful claim? How could he do better?

Whether he is attached to her as an individual I'm not too sure, but he did not want Sansa purely for her claim. In his POV, he makes it clear he wants to see her laugh, see her come to him with her joys and sorrows, wants her to like him. He is jealous of Garlan and even Joffrey with their happy and seemingly happy respective wives, and he wants to have the same relationship with Sansa (totally and utterly unrealistic to be sure, but then Tyrion can be very naive himself when it comes to women).

And it seems to me that during any negotiations, Tyrion didn't really want to let her go. He didn't even really want to use her as a bargaining chip with the Starks.

That's indeed one of the more curious things about Tyrion's behaviour in ACOK; even as he felt pity for Sansa, he really didn't try very hard at all to get a mutually beneficial agreement with Robb for an honest swap of prisoners. Sure, he was defending Lannister interests (and actually deliberately stalling on reaching peace, because he knew new Lannister hosts were being raised) and Robb's initial offer wasn't reasonable at all, but Tyrion did not show a desire to make an agreement for even a relatively limited prisoner swap. In ASOS, a prisoner swap was suddenly very possible after the death of one of Kevan's sons so it certainly wasn't unthinkable to reach an agreement - say Sansa and 2 or 3 relatively important northern lords (so Robb could pacify his bannermen over the deal) for Jaime and maybe a Lannister cousin. Instead, Tyrion used treachery to attempt to save Jaime.

I'm glad they didn't get a chance to work things out, though. I think Tyrion would be a frightening husband. This is someone who murdered a girl with his bare hands because she made him feel humiliated at the wrong time.

That's hardly a fair way to describe it, though. Might as well say that he murdered his poor old father because he said just the wrong thing at the wrong time, isn't that so terribly unfair for poor Tywin?

Shae didn't "humiliate him at the wrong time", she lied at his trial to make sure Tyrion would get beheaded and she also lied about Sansa's involvement, so she would also be sure of the headman's axe or sword. In addition, she twisted the knife by doing some unnecessary extra public humiliation for the benefit of those who were about to condemn Tyrion to die. She is not innocent, she tried to get him killed and he returned the favour and succeeded where she failed to get his head off his shoulders.

[Trackrunner]

Whether he is attached to her as an individual I'm not too sure, but he did not want Sansa purely for her claim. In his POV, he makes it clear he wants to see her laugh, see her come to him with her joys and sorrows, wants her to like him. He is jealous of Garlan and even Joffrey with their happy and seemingly happy respective wives, and he wants to have the same relationship with Sansa (totally and utterly unrealistic to be sure, but then Tyrion can be very naive himself when it comes to women).

He is jealous of their happy marriages, and wants to have a happy marriage himself, but I don't really see anything that suggests he wants to have a happy marriage with Sansa specifically. I think he would have desired a loving marriage to any pretty and kind wife. If it had been Margaery forced to marry him, for example, in place of Sansa, I think he would have had exactly the same feelings. There's not really much about Sansa's personality that seems to attract Tyrion: he doesn't like her courteous attitude, for example, but that's a part of who Sansa is. She's not witty or saucy or even a bit wild, all of which are characteristics Tyrion seems to value in a romantic partner like Shae or Tysha.

[Wouter]

He is jealous of their happy marriages, and wants to have a happy marriage himself, but I don't really see anything that suggests he wants to have a happy marriage with Sansa specifically. I think he would have desired a loving marriage to any pretty and kind wife. If it had been Margaery forced to marry him, for example, in place of Sansa, I think he would have had exactly the same feelings. There's not really much about Sansa's personality that seems to attract Tyrion: he doesn't like her courteous attitude, for example, but that's a part of who Sansa is. She's not witty or saucy or even a bit wild, all of which are characteristics Tyrion seems to value in a romantic partner like Shae or Tysha.

I do not disagree entirely (I agree Margaery would elicit exactly the same response Sansa did, but then Marge and Sansa are quite similar girls in many ways), but Tyrion actually does like Sansa's courteous attitude and notes it as a strength of her (as it is for Margaery, too).

He just doesn't like it when she is cold/icy (though at the surface, perfectly courteous) to him, because he knows she is resisting him with the means she has at her disposal. She's making their marriage the mockery it really was from the start, but Tyrion had clearly hoped it would be different.

He probably misses not so much Sansa specifically in ADWD, but the idea of that happy marriage with a pretty and highborn girl. Curious to see if he will come to see a happy marriage in Penny instead, eventually. If Penny lives through the bloody flux epidemic, I think there is good chance for that and then Sansa may well be off the hook.

[Été]

I think his problem with Sansa is that she rejects him when he feels he's made an effort to be kind to her. With Tysha, there seemed to be a genuine, natural connection; Shae and other whores behaved as though he was liked and wanted regardless of how he treated them in return. He tried to treat Sansa with honesty and respect, acknowledging how difficult her situation was, and he couldn't handle or understand it when that wasn't enough to win her over.

Being a Lannister allows Tyrion to surround himself with sellswords and whores and makes his wife cautious towards him; the only people who won't treat him as a Lannister are his actual family. Issues.

[littlebird_]

He probably misses not so much Sansa specifically in ADWD, but the idea of that happy marriage with a pretty and highborn girl. Curious to see if he will come to see a happy marriage in Penny instead, eventually. If Penny lives through the bloody flux epidemic, I think there is good chance for that and then Sansa may well be off the hook.

Yes, I think it could have been anyone and Tyrion would have missed that marriage, he likes the idea of being loved and a happy marriage and if his wife at that moment is Sansa then its Sansa but it could really be anyone else really.

I do not disagree entirely (I agree Margaery would elicit exactly the same response Sansa did, but then Marge and Sansa are quite similar girls in many ways), but Tyrion actually does like Sansa's courteous attitude and notes it as a strength of her (as it is for Margaery, too).

He does mention once that Sansa would have made a good queen if Joffrey had been a better man so I do think he realizes that she can be charming and in a life of court Sansa does have the disposition to be a good wife but that is something that can be found in many other girls.

I like to think that if the conditions had been different they would have liked each other and enjoyed each other's company but I feel connected to both characters in many ways so that might be my bias at work. Though that chance even if it ever existed is gone now so if they do ever cross paths again I am not sure if they can ever be friends but they might be cordial so long as the other one doesn't threaten the other ones interest. Sansa thinks of him as being kind and will think more kindly of him so long as he doesn't go after Winterfell. Tyrion doesn't really hate her and once he learns that she was not actually involved in joffrey's murder and him being framed he might think more kindly of her also. And if he does have someone to get married to he can even let Sansa go.

He tried to treat Sansa with honesty and respect, acknowledging how difficult her situation was, and he couldn't handle or understand it when that wasn't enough to win her over.

Yes, he did try to sympathize with her but I am not sure he ever really understood her or her situation

In ASoS, during Joffrey's wedding feast he notices that Sansa is not eating and wonders if it is because she wishes she were in Margaery's place marrying Joffrey, like DUDE SERIOUSLY!! I think if he had truly understood her situation he would have realized that this was an impossibility and also realized that she would at least try and escape.

A little unrelated but Littlefinger mentions to Sansa that he kept the dwarves in one of his brothels until the wedding night, wouldn't Penny be one of them, did she mention she was hid at a brothel because that might be a connection Tyrion can make if he hears about staying at brothels

[Wouter]

I think his problem with Sansa is that she rejects him when he feels he's made an effort to be kind to her. With Tysha, there seemed to be a genuine, natural connection; Shae and other whores behaved as though he was liked and wanted regardless of how he treated them in return. He tried to treat Sansa with honesty and respect, acknowledging how difficult her situation was, and he couldn't handle or understand it when that wasn't enough to win her over.

But he didn't really treat Sansa with honesty and respect when he married her, did he? What kind of (near future) husband does not even inform his wife of her own wedding? Is that respect? Is that honesty? The Lannisters, including Tyrion in this instance, treated her like dirt. That Tyrion thought he could make it OK afterwards by being nice to her in conversation doesn't make it so; Sansa rightly never forgot what he and his family did to her.

It seems like half or more of the castle knew about it, but no one warned her. Tyrion told her he was sorry he only now spoke to her, that this was because of "reasons of state". But those "reasons of state" were actually that Sansa herself was plotting with the Tyrells to marry Willas, so if he was really honest he might just as well have said "sorry I didn't warn you, but it was for reasons of f*cking you over as we want to punish you for attempting to ally with the Tyrells, and oh yeah, because we want Winterfell after we finish killing the rest of your family. Let this be a sharp lesson for you, remember the rains of Castamere".

So Sansa repaid his "respect" in kind; there were definitely also "reasons of state" (but from the Stark POV, then) behind her sullen, icy courtesy. Sansa isn't normally like that with people; toward Sweetrobin, Brune, Mya and Myranda she is plenty warm, but for Tyrion she put on her icy armour - after he married her in such an underhanded fashion. Why would she reward him for the sh*t he and his pulled on her? By turning the marriage into an utter farce in practice as well as in origin, she could even get back at a rather annoyed Tywin to some degree. Making a laughing stock of a Lannister is a good thing from a Stark POV.

It's bit like with the prisoner exchange in ACOK that never was agreed on; Tyrion regretted afterwards he didn't swap her for Jaime and that he married her against her will, but those were the things he did anyway. He has to live with the consequences of what he actually did, not what he later wanted to have done.

If this marriage could ever work even in circumstances that are completely different, Tyrion should start by extensively apologising for what he did to her in going along with the farce. As of ADWD, he still doesn't realise that he is at fault, it seems to me.

Regarding Shae, in my opinion her beef with Tyrion was not that she was faking it (I think she didn't mind her relation with him all that badly), but that he wasn't elevating her to the position of Ellaria Sand (which Tyrion probably would have done if not for Tywin). When Shae talked about Tyrion with Sansa and Brella, she seemed proud of him. She admired Ellaria, rising from being "near a whore" to "near a princess", as she put it. IMO she wanted Tyrion to stop treating her as a whore in name as well as in deed, and take her as a mistress if not as his wife.

Littlebird,

Penny does not mention anything about brothels IIRC, only that some man named Osmund or something similar hired them. It's only a vague clue for Tyrion that the Kettleblacks were involved, and then he still has to guess who is the actual master of the Kettleblacks. AFAIK Tyrion believed them to be in Cersei's pocket (as did Cersei).

[Été]

But he didn't really treat Sansa with honesty and respect when he married her, did he? What kind of (near future) husband does not even inform his wife of her own wedding? Is that respect? Is that honesty? The Lannisters, including Tyrion in this instance, treated her like dirt. That Tyrion thought he could make it OK afterwards by being nice to her in conversation doesn't make it so; Sansa rightly never forgot what he and his family did to her.

It seems like half or more of the castle knew about it, but no one warned her. Tyrion told her he was sorry he only now spoke to her, that this was because of "reasons of state". But those "reasons of state" were actually that Sansa herself was plotting with the Tyrells to marry Willas, so if he was really honest he might just as well have said "sorry I didn't warn you, but it was for reasons of f*cking you over as we want to punish you for attempting to ally with the Tyrells, and oh yeah, because we want Winterfell after we finish killing the rest of your family. Let this be a sharp lesson for you, remember the rains of Castamere".

His attitude seems to have been, "Oh well, at least I'm a lesser evil than Joffrey or some random Lannister cousin." It doesn't seem to have occurred to him just how badly they were treating Sansa to make the decision without her consent.

So Sansa repaid his "respect" in kind; there were definitely also "reasons of state" (but from the Stark POV, then) behind her sullen, icy courtesy. Sansa isn't normally like that with people; toward Sweetrobin, Brune, Mya and Myranda she is plenty warm, but for Tyrion she put on her icy armour - after he married her in such an underhanded fashion. Why would she reward him for the sh*t he and his pulled on her? By turning the marriage into an utter farce in practice as well as in origin, she could even get back at a rather annoyed Tywin to some degree. Making a laughing stock of a Lannister is a good thing from a Stark POV.

Although that was the end result, Sansa's POV doesn't suggest that that was her motivation. She was reluctant to open up to Tyrion because last time she confided in a Lannister, her dad got decapitated. Her plan to escape to Highgarden fell through; she's playing the Ser Dontos card extremely close to her chest, despite her limited faith in his capability. Even as a Lannister wife, she is still effectively a Stark hostage at court who wants to see her family again. It wouldn't be smart for her to go native.

It's bit like with the prisoner exchange in ACOK that never was agreed on; Tyrion regretted afterwards he didn't swap her for Jaime and that he married her against her will, but those were the things he did anyway. He has to live with the consequences of what he actually did, not what he later wanted to have done.

If this marriage could ever work even in circumstances that are completely different, Tyrion should start by extensively apologising for what he did to her in going along with the farce. As of ADWD, he still doesn't realise that he is at fault, it seems to me.

I think Tyrion has yet to realise just how appallingly he and his family treated Sansa Stark. He seems to think that because his arm was twisted into the marriage, he and Sansa were in pretty much the same boat. He believed he had no choice, whereas she actually didn't. All along, he acted as though he was making the best of a bad situation and didn't get why she couldn't do the same; it shows that he has no idea how much of a power gradient there was in their relationship. He pretty much left her alone after the horror of the wedding night, but she was always entirely at his mercy.

[Nightstar]

I like to think that if the conditions had been different they would have liked each other and enjoyed each other's company but I feel connected to both characters in many ways so that might be my bias at work.

I don't think they would ever have enjoyed one another's company.

Sansa finds Tyrion physically repellent, and there's really no getting past that. The most she'd have been able to give him is pity, and I can't see Tyrion accepting that!

(Yes, one may argue that Sandor Clegane was also ugly, but there were things, like his strength and his skill, that Sansa admired about him. She didn't admire anything about Tyrion; she was merely grateful to him for treating her kindly and sparing her more of Joffrey's abuse).

[voodooqueen126]

I don't think they would ever have enjoyed one another's company.

Sansa finds Tyrion physically repellent, and there's really no getting past that. The most she'd have been able to give him is pity, and I can't see Tyrion accepting that!

(Yes, one may argue that Sandor Clegane was also ugly, but there were things, like his strength and his skill, that Sansa admired about him. She didn't admire anything about Tyrion; she was merely grateful to him for treating her kindly and sparing her more of Joffrey's abuse).

Perhaps if Sansa was a 45 year old widow (having previously been married to a man of her choosing/Sandor and had enjoyed a long successful marriage plentiful in children) she would enjoy a game of cards with a 57 year old Tyrion (who had enjoyed an acceptable marriage with a suitably desperate woman/Penny), exchange of wit, perhaps they could even become lovers.

But this would be a Tyrion whose wounds would've long healed, and a Sansa of mature sexuality who had already had a great love affair... Very different people from 12 year old Sansa and a 26 year old Tyrion of the books.

[littlebird_]

I think Tyrion has yet to realise just how appallingly he and his family treated Sansa Stark. He seems to think that because his arm was twisted into the marriage, he and Sansa were in pretty much the same boat. He believed he had no choice, whereas she actually didn't. All along, he acted as though he was making the best of a bad situation and didn't get why she couldn't do the same; it shows that he has no idea how much of a power gradient there was in their relationship. He pretty much left her alone after the horror of the wedding night, but she was always entirely at his mercy.

I agree, I had hoped that his experiences in ADWD would have changed his understanding of the power dynamics of that relationship but it hasn't though I am not sure he's had a healthy outlook on anything in ADWD so it might be until some time in the next book that he starts putting all his experiences into perspective and reevaluating some of his previous thoughts.

Littlebird,

Penny does not mention anything about brothels IIRC, only that some man named Osmund or something similar hired them. It's only a vague clue for Tyrion that the Kettleblacks were involved, and then he still has to guess who is the actual master of the Kettleblacks. AFAIK Tyrion believed them to be in Cersei's pocket (as did Cersei).

If she does end up mentioning them in the future this is a definite connection Tyrion can make to Littlefinger, not that he can do much about it but I was thinking of who is going to win the game of 'let's figure out where Sansa Stark is' and it seems to be a race between Cersei and Tyrion mainly because no one else cares ......

[Wouter]

Although that was the end result, Sansa's POV doesn't suggest that that was her motivation. She was reluctant to open up to Tyrion because last time she confided in a Lannister, her dad got decapitated. Her plan to escape to Highgarden fell through; she's playing the Ser Dontos card extremely close to her chest, despite her limited faith in his capability. Even as a Lannister wife, she is still effectively a Stark hostage at court who wants to see her family again.

Exactly, Sansa was wise not to fall for the same trick twice and she had also no reason to respond positively to even idle conversation. At least in the latter and in her refusal to kneel, she was getting back at Tyrion and his family to some extent, in addition to not letting her guard down so her plans didn't fall through. I'm glad Sansa managed to surprise the lot of them on the day of Joff's wedding (even LF would be surprised if he knew Sansa took the poison with her, I hope he doesn't know at least).

I think Tyrion has yet to realise just how appallingly he and his family treated Sansa Stark. He seems to think that because his arm was twisted into the marriage, he and Sansa were in pretty much the same boat. He believed he had no choice, whereas she actually didn't. All along, he acted as though he was making the best of a bad situation and didn't get why she couldn't do the same; it shows that he has no idea how much of a power gradient there was in their relationship. He pretty much left her alone after the horror of the wedding night, but she was always entirely at his mercy.

Yes, good point. He does not seem to realise how good the wedding was for him and how awful for Sansa, and thus how she didn't have any motivation whatsoever to make it work even just a little bit. Instead, he wonders if she wanted to marry Joffrey in Marge's place... :bang:

If she does end up mentioning them in the future this is a definite connection Tyrion can make to Littlefinger, not that he can do much about it but I was thinking of who is going to win the game of 'let's figure out where Sansa Stark is' and it seems to be a race between Cersei and Tyrion mainly because no one else cares ......

Right now no one seems to care; Cersei has that one offhand thought but there seem to be no suspicions attached to it yet, and she is focused on Tommen, Margaery and the High Septon (and Myrcella, I suppose). Soon, she will have even more worries with Kevan's death pointing her squarely at the Tyrells even more, and word of Aegon finally coming through.

Tyrion is focused on Dany and Penny for now, and is half looking for Tysha after that. I wonder if her siblings - particularly Bran - will be the first to care and actually find out where Sansa is.

Regarding Tyrion, what about this line in ADWD:

"What do you miss, Halfman?” Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

Is Tysha "the wife he hardly knew" or is this part rather ambiguous as to who he is referring here? He has had 2 wives and arguably, he hardly knew either of them.

[bronnxtyrion]

IMO in Tyrion's POV about we see him constantly switching between wishful thinking and reality. Sometimes he says why couldn't she have done this to me as others do to their husbands. Other times he totally understands that why Sansa is doing what she is doing. Sometimes he makes wrong assumptions but those are usually in the process of arriving at a conclusion which is usually right.

IMO if Tyrion gets angry at her it will be for framing him for Joff's murder and not for leaving him or being cold to him. At present he doesn't seen totally convinced of Sansa's role. Think what will happen when Tyrion finds Sansa with LF. There is a mild chance that he will decide to completely and utterly(Lannisters don't do half measures) destroy her. And this is not because he thinks that she has wronged him but because he begins to think of her as another player and that is what tyrion does- being ruthless to his opponents.

From Sansa's POV what she did is justified. She did all she can to get out of there with as little damage as possible and why should she care about the side-effects since she is all alone in the game and no one else is in her team.

[guad]

Why does everybody want Penny and Tyrion together? Is this because they're both dwarfs? That sucks as a reason to be honest. Besides, it's pretty clear that they don't desire each other. And I think Penny deserves a guy who is honest to her./Off Topic

Sansa and Tyrion has no future whatsoever because they do not love each other, they do not desire each other (Tyrion desires almost every attractive girl over 13, so that doesn't count) and there is way too much past issues involved. And Tyrion is still married, technically to his first wife. His marriage to Sansa can easily be annulled because it was never consumated.

[littlebird_]

I wonder if her siblings - particularly Bran - will be the first to care and actually find out where Sansa is.

The only possibility with the siblings seem to be Bran stumbling upon her or what happened to her in the past as he looks through the past.

Regarding Tyrion, what about this line in ADWD:

Is Tysha "the wife he hardly knew" or is this part rather ambiguous as to who he is referring here? He has had 2 wives and arguably, he hardly knew either of them.

It looks like he's considering only two names; Shae and Tysha and out of the two he misses the wife he never knew.

IMO in Tyrion's POV about we see him constantly switching between wishful thinking and reality. Sometimes he says why couldn't she have done this to me as others do to their husbands. Other times he totally understands that why Sansa is doing what she is doing. Sometimes he makes wrong assumptions but those are usually in the process of arriving at a conclusion which is usually right.

This is true, he gets angry at her and then goes on to say well what did you expect her entire family is dead, so he switches a lot between wanting to blame her but not really being able to because he does know the conditions. This might be related to him not wanting to openly admit to himself his involvement in holding Sansa hostage, he realizes the conditions but he also always goes back to being angry at her first.

IMO if Tyrion gets angry at her it will be for framing him for Joff's murder and not for leaving him or being cold to him. At present he doesn't seen totally convinced of Sansa's role. Think what will happen when Tyrion finds Sansa with LF. There is a mild chance that he will decide to completely and utterly(Lannisters don't do half measures) destroy her. And this is not because he thinks that she has wronged him but because he begins to think of her as another player and that is what tyrion does- being ruthless to his opponents.

As it stands right now I don't think Tyrion is looking to destroy her either, I think if he figured out where she was (with LF) he could come to the wrong conclusion that she and LF together planned framing him and set out to destroy her. Right now he is not completely convinced about Joffrey because he can not figure out how she would be able to do it but if he does connect her to LF, he finally has an answer.

And Tyrion is still married, technically to his first wife. His marriage to Sansa can easily be annulled because it was never consumated.

Is he? That would make the annulment so much easier, maybe LF has Tysha hidden somewhere