[ADwD Spoilers] Melisandre's Glamor

[Faranya]

I believe when Davos was in the dungeon he was unwell, and through all the sleeping/black-outs maybe she had someone switch the fingerbones.

But my gut feeling is it was a red herring and she was only thinking of them as something that would make a perfect glamor, not something that did/would.

Yeah, I figured it was one of those things where you stop and think "Oh man, that would be absolutely perfect for X"

Like if you spotted something that would be absolutely perfect for your job/hobby ("that piece of lumber would make an amazing desk surface!")

[kingkiller]

OP, Davos is ALWAYS in trouble! I like to think of him as the John McClane of ASOIF. GRRM has tried to get us to believe he's been dead two times now, and both times he has survived. If he isn't die-hard, I don't know who is.

However it's a huge coincidence for her to say that, so here's what might have happened:

Mel somehow got Davos's fingerbones, whether by stealing them before the Blackwater or pulling them miraculously from the water.

She looked in her fires for Davos and foresaw that his head would be requested by Cersei. She knows Davos is perhaps her beloved Stannis's only true servant, and decides she needs to save him.

She sent the fingerbones to Manderly with a red glamor ruby with instructions, so the guy they killed and executed as "Davos" is an exact replica of Davos, so no one can accuse Manderly of NOT beheading him.

Makes sense to me, Manderley doesn't seem like someone to take a huge risk right before he's about to launch his pro-Stark campaign against the Boltons and Freys, while his son is still a hostage. Davos isn't the only man capable of finding Rickon, he was given that job to get him the hell out of White Harbor, where his corpse supposedly is. Manderley easily could have sent someone else to do it, executed Davos, and still get his son back.

Besides, Mel already pulled the same trick with Mance and the Lord of Bones...

[Jared Blackmore]

OP, Davos is ALWAYS in trouble! I like to think of him as the John McClane of ASOIF. GRRM has tried to get us to believe he's been dead two times now, and both times he has survived. If he isn't die-hard, I don't know who is.

Hahahahah! All he needs to do now is turn south, put a bullet between Cersei's eyes, steal a dragon, blow up Yunkai, and fly back and melt the Others while screaming "Yippie ki-yay motherfucker!".

10 bucks he can do it in under 2 hours.

[PrinceHenryris]

Except for the fact that the chapter was clearly told from Jon's point of view...

And names have never been switched for any of the POVs before?

Now that I think about it, maybe Mel switched Jon and Davos?

[Jared Blackmore]

That's a really good catch, I think I missed that completely. Do you know what page that was?

419

[kingkiller]

Hahahahah! All he needs to do now is turn south, put a bullet between Cersei's eyes, steal a dragon, blow up Yunkai, and fly back and melt the Others while screaming "Yippie ki-yay motherfucker!".

10 bucks he can do it in under 2 hours.

only if he takes sallador saan along as his sam jackson

[jfrenchy]

Davos' fingerbones are on the bottom of the Blackwater Bay...

just to add to this, we know this from davos pov where he admits to himself he lost his bones since then

[TheMountainThatAbides]

I noticed this too but couldn't think of any reason at all why she would need to make an illusion of Davos..

She needed Rattleshirt's bonearmor to help make the illusion of Rattleshirt but why would she make an illusion of Davos when the man is still alive?

Don't think there is anything behind this.

[Kaitscralt]

just to add to this, we know this from davos pov where he admits to himself he lost his bones since then

The theory is that she switched the bones out of the bag. He never seems to check inside the bag, and he became extremely unlucky on the Blackwater (if the luck was real). Would he even recognize his fingerbones from another batch?

[Golden Skull]

Perhaps Mel was referring to Davos glamoring himself by thinking that his bones brought him luck. As we've seen this is simply a psychological trick Davos played on himself, elsewise his head would be on a pike with an onion stuck in it.

The bigger glamour issue is whether Mel's entire appearance is a deception. I harbour the suspicion she is a gross old crone. That would be awesome especially when Stannis is all: "Ewww, first mustache wife and now this. No wonder I'm always uspet!" ;grinds teeth;

[slayer420]

And names have never been switched for any of the POVs before?

Now that I think about it, maybe Mel switched Jon and Davos?

My crazy therory that fixs the POV is that Mel brought a dead guy back to life glamored it to look like jon. then have him warg it.

[UnGregorian_Chanting]

I'm having trouble understanding why Mel did the whole glamor thing in the first place. Why save Mance and doom Rattleshirt? Does she know she'll need Mance to try and save Jeyne when she does the switch (presumably earlier in AFFC?)? Or is there another reason? Wasn't she keen on burning a King?

[Dave-o]

As for Jon, there is an instance of her messing with Ghost, and Jon himself specifically thinks (I just read this chapter - before page 500) that Ghost is necessary to keep him alive - a gift from the old gods. It seems that he's learned Robb's lesson. Maybe when Ghost tried to get out at the end, he was trying to get to Jon?

As for Davos, she doesn't need his finger bones. It's magic: she could probably use any old similar-looking bag with some finger bones. As for why? There are all sorts of reasons she could want someone to look like the King's dead Hand.

[fassreiter]

I just noticed a funny thing: Didn't the witch doctor's daughter who patched Mance's cloak inherit this 'red silk from Asshai' from her grandmother's grandmother who had found it on the Frozen Shore? Is this just a coincidence? Not that I think all that people-glamouring has something to to with that, but it might be some part of old-hag-Melisandre's wardrobe gone shipwrecked? Where does she come from, anyway? Were there some more Melisandres in red swirling robes dancing about the North before? Any connections with Hardhome, maybe? There was something about slavery there, too.

Anyone noticed this before? Any theories on that? (I'm new to the forums, so...)

[zelticgar]

I totally missed this quote. Here are a couple of thoughts - maybe Mel has Davos' fingerbones as an insurance policy for Stannis? If Stannis gets in trouble she could glamor him to look like Davos to protect him. Of course she could also do this for Jon if he survives. i wonder if the glamor must be done using someone who is dead or if you just need a relic of the person?

Also - related to Mance, I'll have to re-read the chapter but it was my impression that Mel dropped Mance's glamor when she revealed him to Jon. It would probably be an easy thing for him to get out of Castle Black considering all the coming and goings of wildlings and black brothers.

[BFG]

How would Melisandre know all this of Ygritte? I don't think her fires would show her exactly what Ygritte looked like, her favorite saying, and the affection Jon had for her.

I can believe that her fires would show her Ygrittes face, but not the words. This always struck me as 'odd'.

However it's a huge coincidence for her to say that, so here's what might have happened:

Mel somehow got Davos's fingerbones, whether by stealing them before the Blackwater or pulling them miraculously from the water.

She looked in her fires for Davos and foresaw that his head would be requested by Cersei. She knows Davos is perhaps her beloved Stannis's only true servant, and decides she needs to save him.

She sent the fingerbones to Manderly with a red glamor ruby with instructions, so the guy they killed and executed as "Davos" is an exact replica of Davos, so no one can accuse Manderly of NOT beheading him.

Makes sense to me, Manderley doesn't seem like someone to take a huge risk right before he's about to launch his pro-Stark campaign against the Boltons and Freys, while his son is still a hostage. Davos isn't the only man capable of finding Rickon, he was given that job to get him the hell out of White Harbor, where his corpse supposedly is. Manderley easily could have sent someone else to do it, executed Davos, and still get his son back.

Besides, Mel already pulled the same trick with Mance and the Lord of Bones...

Don't have the book to hand, but manderley explained it to Davos, they took a random criminal and used him (having chopped off his fingers) He then stated that if anyone had noticed he'd have produced Davos and killed him anyway.

I agree that it's a huge coincidence, but can't come up with an explanation. Guess I'm a RAFO.

Hahahahah! All he needs to do now is turn south, put a bullet between Cersei's eyes, steal a dragon, blow up Yunkai, and fly back and melt the Others while screaming "Yippie ki-yay motherfucker!".

10 bucks he can do it in under 2 hours.

He could do it in under 2 hours no prob, but in 2 books - doubtful :)

[Rydis]

I dont think it means anything. The "good boots" is a recurring theme. I think this phrase was just a phrase. Something we recognize from the past, just being incorprated in a way to make us remember such things.

Not able to explain it right..lol

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

How would Melisandre know all this of Ygritte? I don't think her fires would show her exactly what Ygritte looked like, her favorite saying, and the affection Jon had for her.

She had direct access to Mance between the time of the Battle for the Wall and Mance's departure for Winterfell which could have provided the opportunity for Melisandre to obtain pieces of that information.

[Deathkiwi]

The bigger glamour issue is whether Mel's entire appearance is a deception. I harbour the suspicion she is a gross old crone. That would be awesome especially when Stannis is all: "Ewww, first mustache wife and now this. No wonder I'm always uspet!" ;grinds teeth;

I agree. It seemed to me that the glamour she put on Mance needed the red ruby on his wrist to make it work. This got me wondering about the red ruby that Mel wears and if this means she is also using a glamour on herself as well.

[Sega AM2]

I'm having trouble understanding why Mel did the whole glamor thing in the first place. Why save Mance and doom Rattleshirt?

Two reasons. First is that Stannis wants Mance burned and made an example of. Stannis is the only King below The Wall and all other pretenders will die. Secondly, Mance is a Night's Watch deserter, and if Stannis didn't give him to the flames the men of The Watch would have beheaded him.

Melisandre is saving Mance from both Stannis and the Night's Watch. Why? We still don't really know though him being sent to Winterfell is probably part of it. We know that Mance has been in Winterfell before and probably knows some of the secrets of the castle. And perhaps Melisandre has seen Mance accomplishing something for her in the flames so she saves him.

Rattleshirt is unlucky to be chosen as the person swapped out. "The bones remember". Well Rattleshirt's bones make a perfect disguise for Mance's glamor and he plays the part well. So Rattleshirt was a perfect candidate for Mance to hide himself in. And the Lord of Bones for his trouble gets a fiery death and a few arrows to the chest.

Does she know she'll need Mance to try and save Jeyne when she does the switch (presumably earlier in AFFC?)? Or is there another reason? Wasn't she keen on burning a King?

Probably something to do with helping out the people of the North and using Mance's success to bargain with support for Stannis. We already see that the Manderly's will support Stannis if Rickon is brought back. Perhaps Melisandre thinks that if Mance brings Arya Stark to Stannis that people will rally around the savior of Winterfell and its heirs in the North.

I can believe that her fires would show her Ygrittes face, but not the words. This always struck me as 'odd'.

She hears "Melony lot seven" in the fire. So she can hear voices and sounds through her flames as well as feel and see. People already suspect that Mel glamored herself to look like Ygritte to mess with Jon so her hearing Ygritte speak to Jon through the flames is a safe assumption in my opinion.