[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei Prophecy<-Maggy the Frog

[TheWrongKindOfSnow]

Cersei assumes the more beautiful queen who will replace her to be Margery, but I assumed that Margery's a red herring in this case, and that it's actually dany.

You'd have thought Cersei would have been more paranoid about Sansa though - I know she kept her tightly controlled, but she didn't seem concerned about her posing any threat. Perhaps that's more to do with the fact that when she was arranging for Sansa to marry Joffery, she was in a generally far less paranoid state of mind than she'd reached by the time Margery comes onto the scene.

Always a chance the prophecy is a load of rubbish...

I actually have some sympathy for Cersei, and I enjoy the crazyness of her less sympathetic attributes too. I'm hoping that the turn things took for her at the end of ADWD are an indication that she's not going to be written off as insane and evil. She's driven mad by lust for power and the paranoia of trying to hold onto it in a world where doing so means huge threats towards her children. Maybe she'll learn that she'll be happier taking her children off to some more peacefull life without power.

[Cosca's Goat]

Queen Arriane please.

[Ragnorak]

When Maggy makes the prophecy she has "malice" in her eyes. Could be Cersei's memory or she could just be a bitter old woman. What if the malice comes from Maggy seeing that it is her own great granddaughter who will cast Cersei down? Just a thought. Then the valonquar could be Jeyne's little brother, possibly little brother through marriage Rickon. I still think Jaime or Tommen is far more likely but Rickon has serious entertainment potential.

[udpaco13]

When I first read through this book I thought it was obvious who the "Younger Queen" was but I still never see anyone with the same thought as me.

When we are introduced to these prophecies Cersei is dreaming. When she wakes up she is sleeping next to a beautiful woman who she acknowledges is better looking then her, is younger, and also is directly involved in handing her over to the priests. I cant remember her exact name but it is something like Tenya Merryweather or something. Cersei sends this lady to meet with the High Sparrow, and she arranges the meeting where Cersei is taken. She is not taken herself. This lady knows all of Cersei's secrets, including I believe who and what Sir Robert Strong really is.

Additionally this lady is married to the current Hand. Now that Kevin died and Cersei is still about to go to trial, wouldnt this make the "hand" in charge for the time being? This seems like Lady Merryweather is pretty close to Queen Merryweather.

[Malpka]

Since first time I read it my thought was on Jaime as "Valonquar". Well to be honest always thought it would be like that: Cersei will try to poison Margey with book, by accident Tommen get it, and get poisoned instead - Jaime find out and strangle her with Hand of the King chain.

I know it is very precise and unlikely, however thats what I always think when reading about this part of prophecy.

As for second part of the prophecy, little thought:

"Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Don't have English version of the book at hand, hence quote from the wiki.

It doesn't actually state "another queen" - it is obvious assumption when you read it, and phrase is build in a way that make it obvious, however I have not yet heard about prophecy fulfilled in most obvious way. That way we would have quite a lot of possibilities, considering Cersei social skills half of Westeros would gladly help fulfilling this prophecy. However if the queen is removed from prophecy I would go for Arya - she has motivation, will have skills and I believe it was stated that she is similar to Lyanna - and we know that at least Robert believed her more beautiful than Cersei.

[Uncle Impe]

Myrcella does not need to be a crowned queen. "Golden crowns" can refer to the children's Lannister hair.

I am new here but I joined specifically because I was shocked at how badly people want their musings to be the truth even when it is spelled out boldly to them.

I am not a literature expert, but I will encourage all to to use a bit of common sense and stop wondering off to the crackpot end of the book's spectrum.

Crown means one thing alone and one thing alone in the Frog's prediction. It means crown of a king or Queen in the girl's case!

IT DOES NOT MEAN GOLDEN HAIR, GOLDEN MOLTEN GOLD, or any other yellowish subtance alluded to in the book. Try and use your common sense people. keep proper perspective. REad the whole paragraph regarding the prediction.

The which has already referenced their birth origin. (16 for him and 3 for you) There is no reason for her to go over that story in the consequent line.

Most importantly. G.R.R Martin does not play much with words. Fine he may give you a hint every now and then on something but ultimately as the story progresses he clearly defines exactly what was meant in regards to a particular hint and he does not mince words.

Honestly if you think that Golden crown means golden lannister hair, you must have to still be in total confusion about Jojens dream of winterfell being swept up by the seas. (I argue that because G.R.R Martin uses the exact same methodology to explain to the reader what that dream meant even before Theon actually invades Winterfell.)

G.R.R martin very clearly spells it out to you. Tommen and Myrcella will be king and Queen they WILL BOTH DIE BEFORE THEIR MOTHER! CASE CLOSED.

Now please come back from crack pot theory land.

[protar]

I am new here but I joined specifically because I was shocked at how badly people want their musings to be the truth even when it is spelled out boldly to them. I am not a literature expert, but I will encourage all to to use a bit of common sense and stop wondering off to the crackpot end of the book's spectrum. Crown means one thing alone and one thing alone in the Frog's prediction. It means crown of a king or Queen in the girl's case! IT DOES NOT MEAN GOLDEN HAIR, GOLDEN MOLTEN GOLD, or any other yellowish subtance alluded to in the book. Try and use your common sense people. keep proper perspective. REad the whole paragraph regarding the prediction. The which has already referenced their birth origin. (16 for him and 3 for you) There is no reason for her to go over that story in the consequent line. Most importantly. G.R.R Martin does not play much with words. Fine he may give you a hint every now and then on something but ultimately as the story progresses he clearly defines exactly what was meant in regards to a particular hint and he does not mince words. Honestly if you think that Golden crown means golden lannister hair, you must have to still be in total confusion about Jojens dream of winterfell being swept up by the seas. (I argue that because G.R.R Martin uses the exact same methodology to explain to the reader what that dream meant even before Theon actually invades Winterfell.) G.R.R martin very clearly spells it out to you. Tommen and Myrcella will be king and Queen they WILL BOTH DIE BEFORE THEIR MOTHER! CASE CLOSED. Now please come back from crack pot theory land.

What a spectacular entrance to the forum. You're sure to make lots of friends.

[TheCube]

Crown means one thing alone and one thing alone in the Frog's prediction. It means crown of a king or Queen in the girl's case!

Ignoring the rude tone of your post, your crown is part of your head (remember the nursery rhyme Jack and Jill?) and the phrase "golden is his crown" does not seem, to me, at all too much of a stretch to mean their hair colour.

[Uncle Impe]

they will all rule as monarchs Joffrey and Tommen already have fulfilled this, while Myrcella has not. There are basically three plausible ways for this to come about:

1. Tommen dies and she inherits the Iron Throne.
2. Doran and Arianne dies and she becomes Queen of Dorne as Trystane's wife, to whom she is betrothed.
3. She marries a King, thus becoming Queen by marriage. It's unclear who that would be though.
   Or may be some one in Dorne crowns her king of the Seven kingdoms to provoke war with the lannisters? did you consider that?
   

   The first implicitly means that her bastardry remains a secret, or she cannot inherit anything.

   
   Wrong again. Her bastardy is not even a secret of note to any one any more. Those who matter (as in people who can affect her inheritance) dont care for one of two reasons. They stand to benefit with her as queen or those opposed to the lannisters dont care about it because those who matter, ie, Manderly, Martell are all conspiring against the lannister reign with stategies they believe are better. That is why I believe Manderly dismisses the bastardy charge simply because he has what he believes a better scheme that he has been planning for a long time.
   
   

   "... and gold shall be their shrouds" Shroud has two common meanings in English, both of which are reasonably applicably here. It can either be a funeral cloth or a protecting deception. The latter being, of course, the claim that Robert is their biological father. If the first meaning is true, the prophecy is about their deaths. It does, however, not in itself imply when death will occur - which makes it rather a trivial statement in itself..

   
   I am sorry I dont get the logic in this. Since when has the prediction of death been rendered trivial simply because the prophet did not specify the time?
   People should stop taking this speculation game to ridiculous extremes. The prohecy does clearly talk about Cersei mourning does it not?
   
   That is all you need to read to understand clearly that the shroud referred to clearly means the funeral cloth and that all her children shall die before her and she hall mourn them. (speaking of the time reference, thats about all a mother would need to know about the predicted death of her children.
   
   
   Not to mention, G.R.R martin goes through a great many lengths to pretty much tell you that Myrcella shall be queen and she shall die. ("To Queen her is to kill her") look up that quote for a better understanding on this particular issue because right now you are grasping looking to sell what you want to be true instead of what has been spelled out clearly to you by the writer of the book.

   "You are no child of mine!". She did not stop loving Myrcella just because she was shipped away to Dorne. Both Tommen and Myrcella are storywise in solid positions for such betrayals as the Lannisters are facing ever-mounting tensions with both Tyrell and Martell. Should it transcend into outright hostilities, they will be forced to choose between their mother and their spouses...

   
   Again you have completely misunderstood the book. No one who has really read any of the books in the series can make such a wayward argument. Tommen and Myrcella are pawns. HELLO!!!! (do you actually remember the title of the book, GAME OF THRONES") Please harken back to that or may be something more familiar, like The Game of Chess and figure out the use of pawns
   In so many cases in the book it is spelled out that these children are nothing but pawns used by their regents or parents to advance themselves in the game of thrones. You can not for one second even begin to make some argument about what side either of them will pick. They cant choose a side Sir!!!! THEY ARE PAWNS!!! They will take whatever side they are told to take.
   
   
   Did you forget Myrcella and how easily she lied about her injury?

[Uncle Impe]

Ignoring the rude tone of your post, your crown is part of your head (remember the nursery rhyme Jack and Jill?) and the phrase "golden is his crown" does not seem, to me, at all too much of a stretch to mean their hair colour.

yes you are right, neither would it be too much of a stretch nor it to mean molten gold. After all we did see some one wear a golden crown of molten gold did we not? That is the whole point of my post. Be practicle dont go off the deepend just because you think its not "too much of a stretch"

[Uncle Impe]

The prophecy about the younger beautiful Queen is dumb to me sometimes. Of course someone newer and younger will come around. It is the natural order of succession. Her sons would have had to marry sooner or later and since she killed Robert it was sooner. So she kind of brought it on herself. But she is probably more afraid of dying than anything.

Really this is the natural order of things? In what Realm may I ask? did a younger beautiful queen part of the natural order when Mad Aerys was killed? Pray tell any one ever heard of the Queen of the Iron borne?

You misunderstood the prophecy. Of course some one would come to replace her. Every one is going to die at some point in time. But under what circumstances will you die? Will some one take your job prematurely, would the queen live out her days happily or be detoothed, and kicked out of .....(or crap i think I just realized something. I am posting in a forum where people havent read past the current book or are following by the hbo series.)

But then why would they be talking about Maggy the frog?

[TheCube]

yes you are right, neither would it be too much of a stretch nor it to mean molten gold. After all we did see some one wear a golden crown of molten gold did we not? That is the whole point of my post. Be practicle dont go off the deepend just because you think its not "too much of a stretch"

In fairness, you were the only one who excluded all other interpretations and were also the only one that went off the deep end.

[Uncle Impe]

In fairness, you were the only one who excluded all other interpretations and were also the only one that went off the deep end.

I excluded them because they are just silly when you take the whole prophecy into context instead of clipping one line and running wild with it. I excluded them because of their absurdity.

And I dont see how arguing for the most plausible scenario that is referenced again and again in the book could be called going off the deepend. (Remember sir I am the one arguing for the most obvious not for the outrageous.)

[TheCube]

I excluded them because they are just silly when you take the whole prophecy into context instead of clipping one line and running wild with it. I excluded them because of their absurdity.

And I dont see how arguing for the most plausible scenario that is referenced again and again in the book could be called going off the deepend. (Remember sir I am the one arguing for the most obvious not for the outrageous.)

It's all speculation, and I don't think it's that absurd either.

By going off the deep end I was referring to your rant. It was quiet an entrance.

[Onion Ring Knight]

Really this is the natural order of things? In what Realm may I ask? did a younger beautiful queen part of the natural order when Mad Aerys was killed? Pray tell any one ever heard of the Queen of the Iron borne?

You misunderstood the prophecy. Of course some one would come to replace her. Every one is going to die at some point in time. But under what circumstances will you die? Will some one take your job prematurely, would the queen live out her days happily or be detoothed, and kicked out of .....(or crap i think I just realized something. I am posting in a forum where people havent read past the current book or are following by the hbo series.)

But then why would they be talking about Maggy the frog?

You are making some mighty big assumptions there, sport.

[Uncle Impe]

It's all speculation, and I don't think it's that absurd either. By going off the deep end I was referring to your rant. It was quiet an entrance.

Its only speculation for those with the inability to read and comprehend basic English. Ok G.R.R.Martin's book is rather vast and I wouldnt blame one if they missed basic themes in their entirety in a bid to get finish the book. But come on! there has to be a limit to the absurdity of ones speculation.

I guess if some one told you that Renly and Loras were gay lovers you would be one of those who claim "Not true" its not written any where in the book. "its all speculation" you would say right?

Screw common sense. Lets throw out all that which the writer spent writing just so that you wouldnt be confused into speculation as to what the hell "crown" in the prophecy means.

i really would have liked to be quiz you on the chapters leading up to the fall of winterfell. I guess you must have been hopelessly stumped as to how the "sea" would reach winterfell. For me I wasnt confused at all. I used the authors own written words to come to the correct conclusion, that the ironmen were going to invade Winterfell.

And by golly I higly doubt I will be wrong about all of Cerseis kids become kings (or queen in Myrcella's case) and dying before her..

To those in la-la land, ponder this. When G.R.R Martin keeps making you cooing and fawning over the boy king Tommen good nature and his lovely kittens, he is setting you up! If you cant see what the hell he means to do with him well you must dumber than Penny wondering why a certain crowd was not so pleased with their performance.

I think I will look up that paragraph when Tyrion has had enough of her and her doe eyed perspective of the peril they are in.

[Uncle Impe]

You are making some mighty big assumptions there, sport.

And I hope those mighty assumptions are right. There is no concievable way that any one who has read and understood the books would think that a "younger queen" was part of the "natural order of things"

(Part of that response would have originally included a list of houses or kingdoms where a "Younger queen" never came into the picture.

[Angalin]

<mod>

This thread has just been merged with a newer one, as they cover the same ground. And here's a reminder for all of you: it's possible to disagree with other people politely. Do so.

</mod>

[Uncle Impe]

When I first read through this book I thought it was obvious who the "Younger Queen" was but I still never see anyone with the same thought as me.

When we are introduced to these prophecies Cersei is dreaming. When she wakes up she is sleeping next to a beautiful woman who she acknowledges is better looking then her, is younger, and also is directly involved in handing her over to the priests. I cant remember her exact name but it is something like Tenya Merryweather or something. Cersei sends this lady to meet with the High Sparrow, and she arranges the meeting where Cersei is taken. She is not taken herself. This lady knows all of Cersei's secrets, including I believe who and what Sir Robert Strong really is.

Additionally this lady is married to the current Hand. Now that Kevin died and Cersei is still about to go to trial, wouldnt this make the "hand" in charge for the time being? This seems like Lady Merryweather is pretty close to Queen Merryweather.

Dude u have completely butchered the book. Please go back and read that chapter again. The woman's name was Taena. And she did not engineer the meeting between Maegery and Cersei.

Taena was supposed to go meet with one of Maegery's cousins to convince her to confess or something along those lines. (i am not dead sure about that part) and Cersei was supposed wanted to go see Maegery to gloat! She had mentioned before during the small council meeting that she would go broker a peace between the little queen and the high septon.

the whole sex scandal scheme was her idea.

Taena did not arrange anything including handing over Cersei to the high septon.

I will say that Taena is probably scheming some where along the way. She may have been leaking information to both groups (she squealed on Senelle) and i do believe she run to Queen Maegery and told her of the queen's plan to get Osney kettleblack to seduce her. To which Maegery must have responded by surrounding her self with the wall of her friends referenced in the book.

I am also beginning to think that either she does not have a son or she does not intend to ever take him to the palace to play with tommen. She keeps promising and it never happens.

I do believe she is involved in some kind of scheme against Cersei.

[Lord Over]

GRRM does not play with words? Everything he writes is carefully thought out word play that will force you to decode everything , patchface and his prophecies, Ned's dream, Danys house of the un frickin dying. This was a wonderful forum and now its been stained by your unsavory , unpleasant and self righteous nature.