[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei Prophecy<-Maggy the Frog

[Tini]

Renly was trying to replace Cersei with Margery, he was going to have her brought to court. Robert even spoke to Ned about her. If Robert had lived and Cersei not been exposed - then Robert probably would have traded "the bitch wife" in for a newer, younger model and if Marg does look anything like Lyanna then it was a done deal.

Did Cersei know that Robert was planning to replace her? Did she know about Renley's plans? How did Robert plan to set their marriage aside if he didn't even know about Cersei's affair, and the paternity of her children? Would he have dared to insult his father-in-law Tywin Lannister by doing that, without this knowledge?

Given Robert's tastes, I am sure that he did notice Margaery, even felt attracted to her. He would have bedded her, and would have forgotten about her, just as he forgot about all the other women he ever was attracted to.

When Sansa was Joff fiancee,cercei never had problem with her, she did not associate her with the prophecy, why does she do it with Maergary? i do not get it really. But i believe that margary will be the young queen of the prophecy but she will not last on the Throne as I think she will be Aegon Queen.

For one thing, Sansa was never queen. She was just Joffrey's intended bride. For another, Sansa was utterly in Cersei's power, she had no power base of her own, no family to protect her. Sansa was no threat. Margaery has the Tyrell's behind her, and the Tyrells are a threat in Cersei's eyes. But maybe Cersei would have felt threatened by Sansa as well if Sansa had married King Tommen instead of King Joffrey. It was Joffrey's death that made Cersei recall the prophesy keenly.

I think Cersei would have felt less threatened by Margaery as Joffrey's wife. Margaery would never have been able to control Joffrey. Cersei could be sure of that, she could not control him either. But Joffrey died, and suddenly Cersei's power depended on weak little Tommen. She did control Tommen, and she feared that Margaery would wrestle that control from her, through kindness (it doesn't matter if Margaery's kindness had ulterior motives).

[Jem]

Did Cersei know that Robert was planning to replace her? Did she know about Renley's plans? How did Robert plan to set their marriage aside if he didn't even know about Cersei's affair, and the paternity of her children? Would he have dared to insult his father-in-law Tywin Lannister by doing that, without this knowledge?

Given Robert's tastes, I am sure that he did notice Margaery, even felt attracted to her. He would have bedded her, and would have forgotten about her, just as he forgot about all the other women he ever was attracted to.

I don't think even Robert knew about Robert's plan. It was pretty much Renly trying to help his boyfriend's family to get ahead by pushing Loras's sister onto Robert. Cersei, I believe, would suffer an unfortunate accident to make way for Margaery.

[Lord Damian]

When Sansa was Joff fiancee,cercei never had problem with her, she did not associate her with the prophecy, why does she do it with Maergary? i do not get it really. But i believe that margary will be the young queen of the prophecy but she will not last on the Throne as I think she will be Aegon Queen.

Sansa was in her complete control. Joff's control on top of that. When Joff died, the crown passed to her plump little boy of what 7-8. now she is panicking. She found the gold coin that she feels can be traced to Oleana and is associating that with the gaoler whom she suspects of letting Tyrion out of his cell. She is convinced that Tyrion killed her son and now suspects the Tyrell's were in on it too. Cersei is going nuts and paranoia is setting in.

[Lord Damian]

In regards to Sansa. When Young Griff makes a play for the throne and I think he will get it, he will need allies and who has an army ready? The Vale. Dorne should be his through his mother's lineage therefor he needs not seek a bride there but Sansa could be revealed thus destroying any Bolton claim to the North. The Freys would panic if they win the thone, the North would follow unless and until one of the boys surface. Think of it, it is a perfect match. She is the first cousin to the lord of the Vale and the ward if you will to the protector of the Vale, Peter would angle for hand/or some other prize for himself etc..she would be a perfect bride for young Griff/Aegon. Could you not see her wed and crowned with Aegon seated in the throne room looking down on Cersei with eyes of rage?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I think most people think that it is Jaimie. I don't because:

I don't think Jaimie can physically do that.

I actually think it's Jaime because GRRM has put Jaime in this position where you instantly think, oh, crippled, handless Jaime who can barely hold a sword is definitely out of the running for valonqar. It seemed like the most obvious candidate at first was Tyrion, but then you slowly started to see Jaime souring on his sister, not answering her summons to fight for her.

Also, this may be totally crackpot, but remember how Tyrion strangled Shae with a chain of golden hands? Wouldn't that be the most awesome, poetic foreshadowing for what Jaime is going to do to his own whore (he does start thinking of her as that too). Idk how that's going to work physically, using that gold hand of his, but i imagine it'll be something along the lines of using his good hand to grasp her throat with the gold hand serving as a stabilizer. Kind of like being caught between a hammer and anvil, only the hammer needs to move.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Sansa is my current favorite for the younger Queen. I just think it would be cool for her to get her revenge after what Cersei did to her/ let happen to her by way of Joffrey. And I love the irony that she may become the best politricker in the book, ambitions that Cersei clearly had but mucked up royally with her brashness and pride.

I don't think beauty is much evidence one or the other for any of these young ladies, since it seems like every young woman of importance is just extraordinarily beautiful in this series.

Also, whoever came up with that word, politricker, I can't find your post now, but that is officially by new favorite word, especially when used in regards to Littlefinger.

[Arianne Flint]

As for Margaery, I wouldn't call her a pawn but I don't see her as an active player either. Not just yet. I think she's an active, willing participant in the game, but still learning from dad and grandma.

I agree that Margaery's brilliant "innocent" and "sweet" act plays out much better than Cersei's tough "lioness with claws" male-like act.

Margaery does give me the impression of someone who is more of a pawn than a player. She kind of gives me the impression of an Anne Boleyn or Marie Antoinette type; if I remember correctly the only time we see Margaery without her 'public' face on is that dinner with Sansa and the Queen of Thorns, and it seemed that Margaery wasn't very active in that scene (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) as much as there to hear what Sansa had to say.

If she knew and approved of it, that means she went along with the plan. And, by being seated right there next to Joffrey, knowing full well what was coming to him, she is in fact, actively involved.

The fact that the Tyrells want to pull Tommen's strings doesn't mean they have to be rude or mean to him. Quite the contrary, in fact. The happier the boy is with his bride, the more likely he is to consent her every whim...even if said whims are actually based on what the Tyrells want more than what Margaery may want for herself.

...

She's lost 2 husbands in little time and she hasn't even pretended to mourn them for 5 minutes. She has jumped ship and barely blinked while doing it. She's as ruthless as anyone hoping to be seated on a throne must be.

I also agree that Margaery was actively involved in the plan to assassinate Joffrey. I think it's a bit weird how she's trading up in husbands the way she is, and I'm surprised there aren't any rumors surrounding this being heard in Westeros. You don't think she's going to get some sort of reputation for being something of a Black Widow?

I think only the Tyrell women (and LF) were in on Joff's murder. Olenna makes it clear that she thinks Mace is a dolt, and Garlan strikes me as a genuinely good person, or at least as good a person as one's going to get in asoiaf.

I wonder what LF's story was to get the Tyrell ladies to trust him. I don't seem to remember any back-story between LF and the QoT.

Technically, there are only two other queens in the westeros world that have been acknowledged as such. Both are younger than Cersie and both have motive. Dany, her family wiped out almost by Lannister henchmen. Jeyne Westerling who happens to be Maggy the Frog's grandaughter. Jeyne may still have a play if she is pregnant with Robb's child, who would be legit heir to entire North.

I personally suspect that Jeyne is out of contention; she's just too small of a character at this point. Even if she does have a child with Robb (remember we're a few years past CoK now), she's under watch by Lannister loyalists and I highly doubt many Stark bannermen, former or otherwise, are going to rally behind her.

Sansa is my current favorite for the younger Queen. I just think it would be cool for her to get her revenge after what Cersei did to her/ let happen to her by way of Joffrey. And I love the irony that she may become the best politricker in the book, ambitions that Cersei clearly had but mucked up royally with her brashness and pride.

I also think Sansa would be the most satisfying contender for the younger Queen in the prophecy.

[udpaco13]

I always assumed the younger Queen was the Hot Myrish woman she has been "Sleeping With". The wife of the hand (dont have my books, and cant remember her name). She was said to be very hot, and we know she is very ambitious. I think she may be the only character we can absolutely say is better looking then Cersie. Cersie even says as much to herself. Dany is said to be good looking, but she is still only like 15. The same can be said of Sansa. The other lady is older with a fully developed body, a beautiful face, and dark skin.

She is not a queen yet (That we know of. Who knows if she is Royalty in some other land.), but she could easily hook up with who ever takes over after Kevan(sp) died, or someone else. "Queen" seems like a title that would be pretty easy to pick up in the current world of multiple kings/rulers.

Her character was introduced at the same time as the prophesies. She has already been playing both sides of the fence with Marg, and she is somewhat responsible for the current situation with Cersie and the church. Some could say the prophecy is half complete.

[udpaco13]

To add another point for Cersie's "pillow friend" (thank you Robert Jordan), the prophecy never says the "other" would be a queen. It just says "another, younger, and more beautiful". When reading it for the first time I thought it was obvious that the prophecy was referring to this lady (I really need her name if someone could provide it). You get the prophecy in a dream, and Cersie wakes up and the first thing she sees is a younger more beautiful woman. A woman who worked her way to Cersie's only confident, and knows all over her secrets. She also has been sent to "speak" with the high septon alone, before Cersie was taken prisoner. This is the only candidate that make sense to me.

[Fire Princess Arianne]

To add another point for Cersie's "pillow friend" (thank you Robert Jordan), the prophecy never says the "other" would be a queen. It just says "another, younger, and more beautiful". When reading it for the first time I thought it was obvious that the prophecy was referring to this lady (I really need her name if someone could provide it).

I believe her name is Taena Merryweather.

[Kuther2000]

Can Robert put Cersei aside that easily? I think that he would have wanted to, but you also have to remember that the crown is in debt to the Lannisters for a lot of money. I don't think it would have been that easy unless Robert had found out about the children then he would have cause to.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Can Robert put Cersei aside that easily? I think that he would have wanted to, but you also have to remember that the crown is in debt to the Lannisters for a lot of money. I don't think it would have been that easy unless Robert had found out about the children then he would have cause to.

If kings can have accidents, why not queens?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

To add another point for Cersie's "pillow friend" (thank you Robert Jordan), the prophecy never says the "other" would be a queen. It just says "another, younger, and more beautiful". When reading it for the first time I thought it was obvious that the prophecy was referring to this lady (I really need her name if someone could provide it). You get the prophecy in a dream, and Cersie wakes up and the first thing she sees is a younger more beautiful woman. A woman who worked her way to Cersie's only confident, and knows all over her secrets. She also has been sent to "speak" with the high septon alone, before Cersie was taken prisoner. This is the only candidate that make sense to me.

That is really interesting. I would never have thought to connect Lady Merryweather to the Prophecy, but she is definitely in the right place at a time when Cersei suddenly falls really low. I wonder if GRRM is going to definitively reveal the meanings of many of these prophecies. If not, we may never know because any connivance on the part of Lady M was done off screen :/

[Arianne Flint]

I wonder if GRRM is going to definitively reveal the meanings of many of these prophecies. If not, we may never know because any connivance on the part of Lady M was done off screen :/

I think it would be somewhat unsatisfying if the prophecies in the story remained unresolved/ambiguous at the end, since some of the characters are so obsessed with them. GRRM might try to make the point that it doesn't do to listen to prophecies, but in my opinion he gives way too much ink and paper to some of the prophecies for them to be completely insignificant to the plot.

[Tini]

I think it is possible that there will be prophesies which are fulfilled more than once, by different people and circumstances. But I think all will come true.

[Saffron]

Margaery does give me the impression of someone who is more of a pawn than a player. She kind of gives me the impression of an Anne Boleyn or Marie Antoinette type; if I remember correctly the only time we see Margaery without her 'public' face on is that dinner with Sansa and the Queen of Thorns, and it seemed that Margaery wasn't very active in that scene (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) as much as there to hear what Sansa had to say.

If you're going to argue that Margaery is like Anne Boleyn, then she certainly is NOT a pawn, as Anne Boleyn was by no means a pawn of anyone, even her husband. Actually though, she is a good comparison to Margaery-- educated, likeable, attractive, in addition to manipulating her husband. Also like Anne, Margaery is religious (although with her, it could be part of keeping up appearances). I do think that she's a lot more cunning than she appears, and that she knows exactly what's going on. While she may not be the planner, per se, she's not innocent. I think she has her own agenda, maybe even one that the rest of her family doesn't necessarily know about. The fact that she's been so willing to marry so many men (especially Joffrey) indicates that a) she's a power player, just like her family (and Anne Boleyn ;) ) and B) she probably knew of the plan to assassinate Joffrey, otherwise it seems like she would've fought more on the issue of marrying a cruel, sick psychopath. However, I realize this could be giving her too much power, as ultimately she likely has to do whatever her father tells her.

Or maybe Margaery is the female version of Henry VIII and is going to keep going through husbands...? Lol

[Arianne Flint]

If you're going to argue that Margaery is like Anne Boleyn, then she certainly is NOT a pawn, as Anne Boleyn was by no means a pawn of anyone, even her husband. Actually though, she is a good comparison to Margaery-- educated, likeable, attractive, in addition to manipulating her husband.

Similar to or "like" does not necessarily mean "is". Also, Anne Boleyn's husband manipulation worked woefully against her when her husband accused her of witchcraft. It probably didn't help that she had a few powerful enemies in court, either.

At any rate . . . .

If Margaery was not a pawn, then I think she would not need to rely as much on her father or grandmother's tutelage/support in the Game. I also don't really see her growing over time, but that might be due to her not actually being physically present in the text very often.

I'm certain her grandmother assured her that she wasn't going to be wed to Joffrey for long.

[HouseofStark]

If Margaery was not a pawn, then I think she would not need to rely as much on her father or grandmother's tutelage/support in the Game. I also don't really see her growing over time, but that might be due to her not actually being physically present in the text very often.

i dont think that's a very valid criticism of Margaery's abilities. People aren't born master manipulators (though i'll grant you if anyone fits that bill it's LF) and so she has an experienced player helping her along. I think she is a less refined than the heavy hitters like cercei, but she's only 16 and she's managed to become the queen to an 8 year old boy. I know that much of that credit belongs to others, but she doesn't strike me as sharing in Sansa's naivete when she first arrived at King's Landing.

[Arianne Flint]

i dont think that's a very valid criticism of Margaery's abilities. People aren't born master manipulators (though i'll grant you if anyone fits that bill it's LF) and so she has an experienced player helping her along. I think she is a less refined than the heavy hitters like cercei, but she's only 16 and she's managed to become the queen to an 8 year old boy. I know that much of that credit belongs to others, but she doesn't strike me as sharing in Sansa's naivete when she first arrived at King's Landing.

Note that Robb was born the same year as Margaery (according to the wiki), and managed to rally most of the North behind his cause as well as prove himself to be a capable combat tactician. Margaery may not be as naive as Sansa (who is younger, and like her older brother had no one to mentor her in courtly intrigue), but I don't think Margaery is the master player-to-be that some people make her out to be. She was not a particularly active participant when QoT invited Sansa over for dinner and interviewed her, although she did listen in on what Sansa had to say. I suspect if Margaery gets to live long enough she is going to turn out more like Cersei than QoT.

Her marriages were arranged by her father (possibly with QoT scheming/plotting behind-the-scenes) and not by her own doing; the best I think one could say about Margaery is that she can maintain her own positive image with the masses, which was primed by her family (giving out free food in KL during SoS).

I think a QoT POV chapter would be really enlightening on Margaery's character and on exactly how active of a player she is.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa being the younger and beautiful Queen seems to me far more poetic to me then the possibility that Dany ore Margaery may be, especially since the interesting parallel between Sansa and Cersei. Both start off as idealistic, naive and believing in their songs and stories. Both worlds are crumbled down and have to learn to pick up the pieces and using it to their advantage. Though they started the same way I am positive that Sansa won't end up like her. Cersei completely lost herself to the game of thrones. While I see Sansa being a natural politician (this mainly comes from her easily charming people and her polite courtesy), get more edgier by learning the game from a master I still believe that Sansa will still maintain a part of the idealist and purity of her character. This is what will be her beauty. Not because of her psychical appearance, but the beauty of her personality and the fact that Sansa will not be seduced by the greedy game. Plus Sansa already took a couple of things that Cersei hold dear; she was partly responsible with Joffrey's death and gets accused by it, and lets not forget that Jaime has joined Brienne to seek Sansa. He thinks that Sansa will be the key to his last chance at honor. Sansa is probably the least person Cersei expects: she thought Sansa was stupid and pretty weak. Wouldn't Sansa defeating her be the right dosis of karma for her?