[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei Prophecy<-Maggy the Frog

[thesheik]

Hm, I hadn't even considered Sansa. But her development as she matures will be interesting, she certainly will have the conniving political know-how from Littlefinger (who btw is so fucking awesome).

[MattTaz]

Dany for me and Aegon is the little brother, if the strangulation is symbolic not literal

[Liliana]

So Im new here and I was just wondering if anyone every thought of the volanquar (sp?) as Jamie. Jamie seems to drift apart from Cerscei. I think in a Feast for Crows she mentions that she asked around for the meaning of volanquar and comes back with the meaning little brother. Everyone would suspect it to be Tyrion but what if its actually Jamie that will strangle her? After all the lying and cheating etc.

I dont know if anyone ever wrote about this but currently the search bar isnt working.

And sorry for my spelling, Im German:)

[ARYa_Nym]

I think most people think that it is Jaimie. I don't because:

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

I don't think Jaimie can physically do that.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Even if Valonquar is genderless the prophecy says "his hands". So, no sisters need apply I think.

Sansa being the more beautiful queen is one of those things that wouldn't have been my first guess but I like more with time. Look at how Lysa relates with her - its like she has this way of making older women nervous. I could see a Snow White theme continuing with her, especially with all the emotions she and Cersei must have for each other. Maergery is a more clear-cut possibility, and Dany I don't like in this role at all. She would only fulfill the prophecy in a technical sense as she and Cersei have little to no past. So, with no real evidence to go by (as in most of these discussions) I pick the choice that would be the best for drama. ;)

Their past is the reason I want it to be Sansa...not sure how it would work out (save perhaps for a marriage to Aegon which seems sort of doomed cause I don't think the kid is going to make it through the series but that is a different post)but it is what I would love to see most. With Dany not even on the move to Westeros however, I think it might be Margery just cause she seems to be the most poised to do it. Until this book however and Dany's disinterest in Westeros I did think it would be Dany.

[Jeynethemaegi]

I think the younger Queen is going to be Jeyne Westerling who will marry Tommen when Maergery(?) dies unexpectedly.

[Liliana]

I think most people think that it is Jaimie. I don't because:

I don't think Jaimie can physically do that.

Thanks:) I didn't even think about that. Maybe it is even Tommen, since he is a younger brother as well. I don't remember it saying in the prophecy that it has to be HER younger brother.

[The Greatmatt]

Cersei is constantly having flashbacks to Maggy the Frog's prophecy, particularly the bit about a young queen taking everything she loves away from her (to that effect).

This has probably been covered, but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, Cersei obviously thinks its Margaery, but my first thought was Dany.

Is there any evidence either way, or just conjecture as to their respective futures?

It's an interesting question. Margaery isn't actually poised to be the one who takes power away from her, but she Tommen and Myrcella could prove loyal to her rather than their mother given all that's gone down.

The Tyrell's appear to be the ones in power now that Kevan's dead. If that holds, then I'd imagine that Margaery is the queen in the prophecy, but not in the sense she ever imagined. The irony there is delicious. If Cersei does claw her way back on top, then I'd imagine Dany will end up handing her and hers a more fiery fate.

[Tagganaro]

I think it's Sansa as well. Pretty much everyone of Sansa's chapters has someone mentioning how pretty or beautiful she is now. She gets hit on by pretty much every guy in the book as well lol. Even the lords of the Vale were hitting on her in AFFC when they came to visit.

Combining Sansa's beauty with Littlefinger's political savvy, and the fact that she could have the entire army of the Vale behind her (which is the only army that's yet to be untouched or harmed), I could definitely see Sansa being the younger queen in the prophecy.

As for the Little Brother, I think it has to be Tyrion. He hates her more than he hated his Dad, and pretty much everyone of his chapters has him thinking about killing her or hurting her.

[Marakesh]

Actually, that word can be genderless and in Spanish it is. You would say "sus manos" regardless of whether they belonged to a man or a woman. So inconclusive.

But we didn't get a 'his' in Spanish or High Valyrian we got it in English! Valonqar is translated for us as 'little brother' and combined with Aemon's prophecy interpretation some have suggested this means it could be little sister as well. However, I would be annoyed since there is no indication Maggy was speaking completely in High Valyrian and somehow Cersei misunderstood this whole thing. Might as well start substituting for any of the words in these prophecies then!

[thesheik]

I can't see it being Sansa at this point. Littlefinger may restore her to power over the North, but that leaves half of Westeros out of her control. Also, we haven't seen any true ambition from her yet.

[Cydal]

I can't see it being Sansa at this point. Littlefinger may restore her to power over the North, but that leaves half of Westeros out of her control. Also, we haven't seen any true ambition from her yet.

North is half and if married to the Lord of the Eyrie, that would mean she has more than half. Also with the riverlands that makes is two-thirds

[littlebird_]

It all depends on what GRRM intends for Cersei's narrative arc to mean.

Is it that prophecies are self-fulfilling? Then its Margaery, because it is the prophecy that causes Cersei to make an enemy out of her.

Is it that Cersei never had any control over the prophecy and she was trying in vain? Because Dany coming in and replacing her is something she could never had predicted and/or changed.

Is it that if she could have prevented it from coming true if only she had been a kinder person? Then its Sansa because Cersei had the chance to make sure what happened to her didn't happen to someone else and she chose to ignore it.

[Miriamele]

But we didn't get a 'his' in Spanish or High Valyrian we got it in English! Valonqar is translated for us as 'little brother' and combined with Aemon's prophecy interpretation some have suggested this means it could be little sister as well. However, I would be annoyed since there is no indication Maggy was speaking completely in High Valyrian and somehow Cersei misunderstood this whole thing. Might as well start substituting for any of the words in these prophecies then!

When I was learning English as a foreign language we were taught that if the gender is not sure, we should use masculine. (The teacher was a native speaker) Maybe strangling someone seems like a masculine act so Maggy used "his" even if she didn't know it would be a man. Especially if she maybe translated from a language where the grammatical gender is not clear. For example in my language (Hungarian) there isn't any real grammatical gender. We don't have separate words for he or she and it's sometimes a problem with translations.

If the younger Queen is Sansa, can the Valonqar be Arya? Sansa's little sibling? She has it in her to strangle someone, and wants Cersei dead. Probably not strong enough yet, but if it happens in a couple of years.

[PrinceHenryris]

What about Arya?

Supposedly, she resembles a young Lyanna - who grew into a woman who could give Rhaegar Targaryen pause, and cause Robert to go to war over her. So the looks problem wouldn't be an issue.

Secondly, out of Dany, Sansa, or Arya, who's most likely to personally wrap their hands around Cersei's neck?

[Red Dirt]

What about Arya?

Supposedly, she resembles a young Lyanna - who grew into a woman who could give Rhaegar Targaryen pause, and cause Robert to go to war over her. So the looks problem wouldn't be an issue.

Secondly, out of Dany, Sansa, or Arya, who's most likely to personally wrap their hands around Cersei's neck?

Not Arya, she wouldn't be that overt.

[Alexia]

It all depends on what GRRM intends for Cersei's narrative arc to mean.

Is it that prophecies are self-fulfilling? Then its Margaery, because it is the prophecy that causes Cersei to make an enemy out of her.

No, not really. This gets lost a lot in Cersei threads but Margaery is already Cersei's enemy. She murdered Cersei's son and if she did not do it herself, she most certainly participated in the plot to do it. Cersei is 100% justified in her hatred of Margaery.

[Marvin]

The deal with the prophecies is that people keep misreading them. Cersei suspects Tyrion and Margaery but the prophecy actually refers to persons she doesn't think of, at least not in the context: Jaime and Daenerys.

[KhalRhaego]

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Does "valonqar" actually mean sibling? I thought it was defined as brother and was wondering if it could be one of the brothers of the knight's watch.

[BladeDancer]

I think it is likely Dany and Jaime. I will throw in a couple of other possible candidates to mull over.

In ADWD we see GRRM foreshadowing another Kingmoot for the IronBorn because Theon was not present at the previous one. The story seems to be leading to Asha becoming Queen of the IronBorn. However I can only see Stannis agreeing to release/pardon Asha and Theon if they agree to try and get the IronBorn to fight against his enemies and make peace with him and the North. So Stannis will require Asha and Theon to pledge to fight against the Lannisters. If Asha Greyjoy successfully takes control over the IronBorn as Queen, as part of her bargain with Stannis, the IronBorn would have to attack the Lannister's holdings - Lannisport and Casterly Rock.

If the IronBorn successfully capture Casterly Rock, then they would free Edmure, Lord of Riverrun, who is being held captive there. He would then be free to raise up the Riverlands again, and kick out the Lannister/Frey powerbase in the Riverlands. So Queen Asha Greyjoy will have taken from Cersei all the Lannister holdings that she holds dear - because all her status is derived from being a Lannister. Now she will be famous as the Lady of Casterly Rock who lost her seat to Queen Asha Greyjoy.

Another possible candidate, is Arianne Martel. She is quite likely to be offered to YG as his bride to seal an alliance between Aegon and Dorne. Remember Doran's original plan was to marry her to Viserys, so this would be very similar. If Arianne became Aegon's Queen, the alliance of Dorne and Aegon could overthrow Tommen's regime in King's Landing.

These are both speculative theories and are less likely than Dany overthrowing Cersei.

As for those who say that Dany has no beef with Cersei. This may be true, but Dany can only take power in King's Landing by overthrowing Cersei and Tommen. For Dany to achieve her goal of taking the Iron Throne she has to take from Cersei all she holds dear - her power.