[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei Prophecy<-Maggy the Frog

[Sam with Hooters]

Sand Snake # 9 wrote:

I read the wedding chapter very carefully trying to figure out exactly how Joff got poisoned, and I concluded there had to be a handoff of the poison from Olenna to Margaery, because the only way Margaery could be perfectly safe (i.e. she'd know when to stop drinking the wine) is if she poisoned it herself.

Unless she took an antidote in advance (if there is one), and so could drink with impunity. Problems with this theory: No antidote to Tears of Lys is ever mentioned (so far), and the Tears are described as hard, purple, and gem-like.

[Greybeard]

Sand Snake # 9 wrote:

Unless she took an antidote in advance (if there is one), and so could drink with impunity. Problems with this theory: No antidote to Tears of Lys is ever mentioned (so far), and the Tears are described as hard, purple, and gem-like.

Point of order - Joffrey was poisoned with The Strangler, NOT the Tears of Lys.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Strangler

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tears_of_Lys

Hope this helps...

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Point of order - Joffrey was poisoned with The Strangler, NOT the Tears of Lys.

http://awoiaf.wester...p/The_Strangler

http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Tears_of_Lys

Hope this helps...

Jon Arryn was poisoned by Tears of Lys, at least according to the page of it. That one is deadly to get from healthy to sick and dying the other day.

[Sam with Hooters]

Greybreard wrote:

Point of order - Joffrey was poisoned with The Strangler, NOT the Tears of Lys.

You're right *smacks self*; stupid middle-aged brain!

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Like I said in my previous comment:

Sansa being the younger and beautiful Queen seems to me far more poetic to me then the possibility that Dany ore Margaery may be, especially since the interesting parallel between Sansa and Cersei. Both start off as idealistic, naive and believing in their songs and stories. Both worlds are crumbled down and have to learn to pick up the pieces and using it to their advantage. Though they started the same way I am positive that Sansa won't end up like her. Cersei completely lost herself to the game of thrones. While I see Sansa being a natural politician (this mainly comes from her easily charming people and her polite courtesy), get more edgier by learning the game from a master I still believe that Sansa will still maintain a part of the idealist and purity of her character. This is what will be her beauty. Not because of her psychical appearance, but the beauty of her personality and the fact that Sansa will not be seduced by the greedy game. Plus Sansa already took a couple of things that Cersei hold dear; she was partly responsible with Joffrey's death and gets accused by it, and lets not forget that Jaime has joined Brienne to seek Sansa. He thinks that Sansa will be the key to his last chance at honor. Sansa is probably the least person Cersei expects: she thought Sansa was stupid and pretty weak. Wouldn't Sansa defeating her be the right dosis of karma for her?

Sansa and Cersei have a pretty vindictive past with each other and that would be a very interesting dynamic to read.

[Mumatil]

Its Jaime. They were twins born around the same time but Cersei came out first.

Tyrion is to obvious and we can see that Jaime and Cersei's relationship has gone down the gutter. He keeps thinknig of Tyrions words before they parted ways (Lancel, Osmand Kettleback, and shes been fucking Moonboy for all I know) She will possibly do some bat**** crazy stuff to save Tommen, maybe even trying to kill Tommen or unknowingly puts him in danger. Maybe Jaime feels the need to be sentiment tries to be fatherly to him now and tries to get him away from Cersei. And somehow it goes off the deep end.

My theory.

Of course UnCatelyn and the whole Brienne thing might have a few reasons aswell.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Its Jaime. They were twins born around the same time but Cersei came out first.

Tyrion is to obvious and we can see that Jaime and Cersei's relationship has gone down the gutter. He keeps thinknig of Tyrions words before they parted ways (Lancel, Osmand Kettleback, and shes been fucking Moonboy for all I know) She will possibly do some bat**** crazy stuff to save Tommen, maybe even trying to kill Tommen or unknowingly puts him in danger. Maybe Jaime feels the need to be sentiment tries to be fatherly to him now and tries to get him away from Cersei. And somehow it goes off the deep end.

My theory.

Of course UnCatelyn and the whole Brienne thing might have a few reasons aswell.

Defeating Cersei doesn't necessarily mean that she needs to be killed right away. As far as I am concerned I want an dramatic ending for Cersei; since she is such a dramatic and tragic character. I want Jaime to kill Cersei, and Cersei take him with her. That would be so poetic. They came together to earth, and they will leave together the earth.

[Tharvot]

I like the idea of Sansa.

I had always just dismissed the prophecy as referring to either Margaery or Dany...but now, Sansa seems to make sense.

In a GRRM twist, Sansa has unwittingly helped take out Joff, set up Tommen for failure, and lured Cersei's love away from KL. I think Jamie will end up killing off Cersei (and die simultaneously). Cersei and Jamie entered the world together, and I think Jamie intends for them to leave it together once he has at the very least restored some of his honor through serving Sansa.

I have no idea how it will happen, but it makes sense for it to play out.

[Faint]

I've had somewhat of a revolution in my thinking about this issue. Before, I was almost certain the prophecy referred to Daenerys. Now I've come around to thinking it alludes to Jeyne Westerling. I also think the prophecy will be over and done with by the time Daenerys sets foot in Westeros and that Casterly Rock is the location where it will all go down.

[kwvapor]

It could be Arya, in her prayer, she has Cersei there. She can change her face to be very beautiful as the kindly man is giving her a cute one next. Tommen has cats at his side which Arya can warg with. I'm sure she can use the cats to spy on or kill anyone in the RK.

Of course, when she takes everything away from Queen Cersei, it wouldn't be in the name of Arya of House Stark. It can be any name of ________ a beautiful Queen of Westeros.

Cause Arya is that badass. She can be her sister, she can be Marg, she can even be Cersei's daughter, she can become Cersei. Just saying....

Arya is the one praying for revenge and that is part of her identity and soul.

Just maybe, this would be an awesome gig.

Just going with the flow, a badass ending would be Arya becoming King Brandon of the North. LOL

And rarely be seen, since the family and advisors would be doing most of the work. So she can switch to and from and mostly be free to be who she wants to be.

[Dragonstar]

I think Maergery is Cersei's Usual Suspect, and Dany is who GRRM is seemingly setting up as the readers' usual suspect. But I think/hope that Sansa fits the bill more. She's got way more vested and justified notions of revenge against C.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Margery seemed like the likely younger/prettier candidate, but my scales are starting to tilt towards Dany. Not alot to back it up other than intuition.

As for Dany fighting the Others.... in her dream/vision/prophesy thing, she was fighting enemies in ice armor, if I recall, from dragon-back. I suppose it could be something/someone else, but nothing pops into my head. You could say Jon, as he dreamed of himself in ice armor... but I'm fairly certain Dany's vision had her laying waste to great numbers of ice-armored enemies.

With the series title "A Song Of Ice And Fire", and what we know of the plot from the first 5 novels, it seems probable that Dany shall fight the Others at some point, does it not? I see the first 5 books creating the background set-up to the real conflict, which shall be against the Winter/Others/Wights. Up through ADWD, and probably well into Wind O Winter, GRRM is setting up the game pieces for the Kralizec / Dagor Dagorath / Armaggedon conflict. I think it's safe to assume that Dany & the dragons shall have a pivitol role in that clash.

[IceGal]

I too thought the prophecy refers to Dany, but now I'm starting to believe it's Sansa. There is a Tyrion chapter in ASOS where he sees Sansa's courteous and thoughtful behaviour with guests at Joff's wedding, and muses that she would have made a great queen.

[Pelican]

My vote is for an ironic twist. The greyscale plague will reach King's Landing and leave Tommen and Myrcella dead and Cersei horribly scarred. Meanwhile, Stannis's army will also reach KL and choke the life out of it. Shireen will be installed as Stannis's heir -- she needs only to be more beautiful than Cersei, not the most beautiful in the land. Stannis, as Robert's younger brother, is the valonquar.

[cuendillar]

I've seen a lot of speculation about Maggy's prophecy stated as fact recently, even though those interpretations aren't at all conclusive. Here, I'm going through the final part in some detail.

"Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

The first paragraph is crystal clear, it speaks of their respective bastards. The only thing worth pointing out is that only five of Robert's bastards are named, most are unaccounted for.

Cersei: Joffrey(dead), Myrcella, Tommen

Robert: Mya Stone, Bella, Edric Storm, Gendry, Barra(dead) + 11 unnamed

"Gold shall be their crowns..." = they will all rule as monarchs

Joffrey and Tommen already have fulfilled this, while Myrcella has not. There are basically three plausible ways for this to come about:

1. Tommen dies and she inherits the Iron Throne.
   
2. Doran and Arianne dies and she becomes Queen of Dorne as Trystane's wife, to whom she is betrothed.
   
3. She marries a King, thus becoming Queen by marriage. It's unclear who that would be though.
   

The first implicitly means that her bastardry remains a secret, or she cannot inherit anything. It's admittedly within Tommen's power to legitimize her as a heir, so even this wouldn't completely rule it out. He's very unlikely to do that though, as it would badly undermine is own legitimacy too.

The Dornish more than suspect the truth about Cersei's children, yet they have made no move to break up the marriage contract. Arianne is fiery enough that she may well find an early grave, making Trystane the heir apparent moderately soon.

"... and gold shall be their shrouds"

Shroud has two common meanings in English, both of which are reasonably applicably here. It can either be a funeral cloth or a protecting deception. The latter being, of course, the claim that Robert is their biological father.

If the first meaning is true, the prophecy is about their deaths. It does, however, not in itself imply when death will occur - which makes it rather a trivial statement in itself.

If the second meaning is true, the "golden" part can only mean Cersei - more than once spoken of as "golden twins" or "golden woman". Her lies about their parentage keeps them safe and in positions of power- as long as it holds.

"And when your tears have drowned you,..."

This clearly does not mean drowning in a literal sense, but to mourn gravely - possibly the loss of everything she considers important in her life. This is strongly implied by the first part of Maggy's prophecy

Queen you shall be, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

The only things Cersei can realistically be claimed to love are, in alphabetical order, her children, Jaime and power. She has already, at least temporarily, lost both her power and Jaime. As this post is about her children, I'll focus on that part of it.

The two ways for her to lose her children are either their death, or what she considers utter and complete betrayal on their behalf, "You are no child of mine!". She did not stop loving Myrcella just because she was shipped away to Dorne. Both Tommen and Myrcella are storywise in solid positions for such betrayals as the Lannisters are facing ever-mounting tensions with both Tyrell and Martell. Should it transcend into outright hostilities, they will be forced to choose between their mother and their spouses.

Doran Martell and the Sand Snakes are already moving to infiltrate King's Landing to prepare for open rebellion. They may do this either independently or by joining forces with Aegon, whichever ends up being more suitable. As Myrcella seems quite fond of Trystane, it's definitely not a foregone conclusion what side she will side with. If Darkstar is brought to justice for his attack on her, that may tip it in favour of House Martell. Whether or not she survives it this will still fulfill the prophecy.

For Tommen, the situation is rather similiar. Margaery is in for a trial of uncertain outcome, if she gets convicted there will likely be no way to repair an alliance between Tyrell and Lannister. Tommen is very fond of both Cersei and Margaery, but if he founds out his mothers part in Margaery's undoing even mild-as-milkwater Tommen may abandon her.

So, the prophecy doesn't actually say that they will die young - that is the "speculation taken as fact" I mentioned in the beginning. There isn't really any evidence at all in favour of it beside this prophecy - which isn't exactly clear on the point.

"...the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

To point out the obvious, this means Cersei will die a violent death. The intriguing point is the identity of the valonqar. The paragraph can be read in three different ways:

1. Cersei's own younger brother, which means Tyrion or Jaime
   
2. The younger brother in the context of her children, meaning Tommen
   
3. Any younger brother at all
   

Tyrion in particular have good reasons to want her dead, is already a kinslayer and has pronounced a wish to kill her in person. Jaime is losing his infatuation with her and starts to see her for what she is. His redemption arc may well include killing her.

I have already pointed out a situation is which Tommen may turn on her, though he does not strike me as a potential murderer. The wording of the prophecy strongly suggests it however, it reads "the valonqar" and not "your valonqar" - the context is clearly that of her children as both Cersei's question and Maggy's former answers were about them.

Option 3 feels a bit far-fetched, that includes the greater part of all Westerosi males...

It can be noted that it's not mutually exclusive for Tommen to be the valonqar or die young as the choking described matches closely to Ser Waymar Royce's death in the Game of Thrones prologue, though Tommen-wight is probably crackpot territory.

It has been suggested that "valonqar" is gender-neutral and could thus also mean "younger sister". This all stems for Maester Aemon's musing about the word for "dragon" in the same language being neither masculine nor feminine. This feels like grasping for straws though, words for close relatives are almost invariably gender-specific in real-world languages while those for beasts need not be. We have actually not even seen any indications that the dragons themselves have a well-defined gender.

[kwvapor]

I have posted before that maybe Tommen dies and Arya uses Tommen's face to become "the valonqar." This will fill the gap for Tommen and at the same time fulfill Arya's nightly prayer for Queen Cersei's death. Fun to let your imagination run wild--I like how you have a 2nd explanation for shrouds and that leaves a possibility for her children to survive.

ETA- Arya and Tommen are both fond of cats.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Myrcella does not need to be a crowned queen. "Golden crowns" can refer to the children's Lannister hair.

[Faint]

I think what few consider, that I consider essential, is that Cersei actually realize the prophecy is coming to fruition. It serves no purpose, in my mind, if Myrcella and Tommen fulfill portions of the prophecy with Cersei none the wiser.

[kwvapor]

I think what few consider, that I consider essential, is that Cersei actually realize the prophecy is coming to fruition. It serves no purpose, in my mind, if Myrcella and Tommen fulfill portions of the prophecy with Cersei none the wiser.

I think she did realize this hence her behavior towards Tyrion. I think her thought process was with Tyrion killed/gone I'm free from Maggy the Frog.

[a bastard named snow]

My take was always that dany was that dany was the person more beautiful and that tyrion was the valonquar....after reading adwd I still think dany is the woman more beautiful but I now believe jamie is the valonquar. He seems to hate cersei as much as he loves her now, and he did come onto the world holding cersei's foot which shows he is the younger brother.....or little brother if you prefer....