[ADwD Spoilers] Cersei Prophecy<-Maggy the Frog

[Hielo y Fuego]

It is correct that the prophecy has her on edge about Margaery, but it doesn't "cause her to make an enemy out of Margaery." Margaery does that nicely on her own. Do we agree? I'm thinking we do...

Oh yes, on this we do agree. Definitely lol...

As for the rest of your post...hmm, I'm not sure I would contend with what you've said, as I believe that does capture Margaery's personality very well. But, how much of it is her own doing and how much is it her father's and grandmother's plotting and scheming? Seems to me like Mace Tyrell's just as power hungry as anyone in the series and grandma looks like an all-star player of the game of thrones.

This is not to say she's as innocent as one would be led to believe at first glance, of course. IMO, she is much like a young Cersei herself and this is the reason why the lioness fears the rose of Highgarden so much. I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is the main reason why both queens have become such bitter rivals either.

Concerning personal preferences, I also agree that Margaery's presented as a much more likable character than Cersei. But personally, I haven't trusted the girl one bit, after seeing just how easily and quickly she forgot all about Renly (regardless of their sex life or lack thereof) and was such a "sweetheart" to Sansa. I think given time, she could be even worse than Cersei. Poor Tommen lol

Edit: for spelling and grammar.

[Alexia]

Mace and Olenna Tyrell are definitely playing politics but Margaery seems to fully play along, as far as I can see. She's not a pawn, she's a player. When the issue of marriage came up and Mace was insistent on making her a queen, Margaery and Olenna decided to murder the king to get Margaery a more malleable king to marry. Olenna might be coming up with the ideas but Margaery is taking action to implement them. And one thing I found fascinating about those Tyrells is how Garlan sat smiling at Tyrion and telling him about how unappreciated he was -- while he was in league with his sister and grandmother to murder his sister's new husband and frame poor Tyrion for it.

One thing I find very interesting about the relationship between Margaery and Cersei is that Cersei wants to be a man and tries to play it like a man during AFFC. Margaery, OTOH, plays it like a woman. This leads to Margaery being far, far more effective than Cersei is. In fact, Cersei seems to have some of her best successes when she plays it like a woman, such as when she did her sobbing in front of the HS, played the meek and cowed part for Kevan, et cetera.

I would really like more Tyrells, btw, I was really hoping we could get a Highgarden (Willas, Garlan, or Margaery) POV. I would have enjoyed that way more than Oberyn or Ser Barristan.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Mace and Olenna Tyrell are definitely playing politics but Margaery seems to fully play along, as far as I can see...

Well, to be fair to her, Cersei has suffered a couple of grievous blows back to back, which may have very well contributed to her paranoia and thus, diminished her skills as the cunning, ruthless player she proved to be in Ned's case, for instance. This has made her much more vulnerable to all her enemies, the Tyrells included, of course.

As for Margaery, I wouldn't call her a pawn but I don't see her as an active player either. Not just yet. I think she's an active, willing participant in the game, but still learning from dad and grandma. In other words, she's more than capable of pulling sweet, innocent, young Tommen's strings, of course, but still a bit too young and inexperienced to contend with the heavy weights such as LF, Varys, etc. I think Sansa's "apprenticeship" under LF's wing is a good indicator of just what Margaery's been learning under Mace and Olenna's tutelage.

I agree that Margaery's brilliant "innocent" and "sweet" act plays out much better than Cersei's tough "lioness with claws" male-like act. That could just swing the ballot in favor of Marg in their respective upcoming trials. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case, though I don't expect Cersei's downfall to end with her losing her head on the steps of Baelor's Sept a la Ned. Would be too anticlimactic for my taste, not to mention repetitive and lame for someone like GRRM.

I also agree that a Margaery POV would be a very interesting read. Or Mace or Olenna. Just not more so than Barristan the Bold, though lol! But that's just me. I love honorable, true, courageous types like him, Ned, Jon, etc. But I'd definitely take any Tyrell POV over the Ironborn or Dornish any day lol!

[Tagganaro]

I don't know. Maybe I just misread it, but I can't imagine Marg was actively involved in Joffrey's assassination. I think it's possible of course that she knew about it and even approved of it, but it's just as likely that she had no idea and it was more her powerhungry father and her awesome, scheming grandmother behind it.

Like usual Littlefinger was also awesome in planning it out. Didn't he say that when he went to Highgarden he had some of his men start telling tales about Joffrey's cruelness, and that's what really began everything?

And even if Marg is just using Tommen to gain power, he at least really likes her back. She's really nice to him, and of course she got him or convinced him to get the awesomeness that is Ser Pounce.

Cersei on the other hand uses Tommen as well, only she treats him poorly, and forces him to watch her hurt other people when he disobeys her. She's also the one who cooked up the whole ridiculous plan that got Marg and her into trouble in the first place. She also hates all the commoners and thinks of herself as being above everybody else, while Marg has every commoner love her and seems to treat everyone well.

In closing, Marg is awesome and Cersei is awful. I don't think Cersei is justified in any of her opinions on anyone, because she's crazy, paranoid, arrogant, and hateful.

[ARYa_Nym]

It all depends on what GRRM intends for Cersei's narrative arc to mean.

Is it that prophecies are self-fulfilling? Then its Margaery, because it is the prophecy that causes Cersei to make an enemy out of her.

Is it that Cersei never had any control over the prophecy and she was trying in vain? Because Dany coming in and replacing her is something she could never had predicted and/or changed.

Is it that if she could have prevented it from coming true if only she had been a kinder person? Then its Sansa because Cersei had the chance to make sure what happened to her didn't happen to someone else and she chose to ignore it.

I'm not sure. Although the part about her friend was separate it came true because Cersei made it so.

"I get three questions too," her friend insisted. And when Cersei tugged upon her arm, she wriggled free and turned back to the crone. "Will I marry Jaime?" she blurted out.

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin.

.... "Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

The part about her friend might not be a clue as to how Cersei's part will play out though.

[borwin]

One thing people fail to account for is that Sansa is not a Queen, not do I see her marrying a King in the future as things stand now.

[Alexia]

I don't know. Maybe I just misread it, but I can't imagine Marg was actively involved in Joffrey's assassination. I think it's possible of course that she knew about it and even approved of it, but it's just as likely that she had no idea and it was more her powerhungry father and her awesome, scheming grandmother behind it.

Margaery was drinking from the cup that was poisoned, as Mace Tyrell took great pains to let everyone know at the trial. You really think her family would risk her life to kill Joffrey? Mace adores her. Her grandmother adores her, and her brothers adore her.

Also, Mace wasn't part of the plot to kill Joffrey. That would be Olenna, Garlan, and Margaery. Mace genuinely thinks that Tyrion and Sansa tried to kill his precious daughter.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

premature post -- gah

[Hielo y Fuego]

I don't know. Maybe I just misread it, but I can't imagine Marg was actively involved in Joffrey's assassination. I think it's possible of course that she knew about it and even approved of it, but it's just as likely that she had no idea and it was more her powerhungry father and her awesome, scheming grandmother behind it.

If she knew and approved of it, that means she went along with the plan. And, by being seated right there next to Joffrey, knowing full well what was coming to him, she is in fact, actively involved.

And even if Marg is just using Tommen to gain power, he at least really likes her back. She's really nice to him, and of course she got him or convinced him to get the awesomeness that is Ser Pounce.

The fact that the Tyrells want to pull Tommen's strings doesn't mean they have to be rude or mean to him. Quite the contrary, in fact. The happier the boy is with his bride, the more likely he is to consent her every whim...even if said whims are actually based on what the Tyrells want more than what Margaery may want for herself.

Cersei on the other hand uses Tommen as well, only she treats him poorly, and forces him to watch her hurt other people when he disobeys her. She's also the one who cooked up the whole ridiculous plan that got Marg and her into trouble in the first place. She also hates all the commoners and thinks of herself as being above everybody else, while Marg has every commoner love her and seems to treat everyone well.

All due respect, I don't see Cersei using Tommen. I see a paranoid, ruthless woman doing everything she can to hold on to power while protecting her son (with great reason to do so, in fact, given what has just happened to her firstborn). The question here, IMO, would be if she knows how to do this better. After all, Lord Tywin doesn't strike me as the kind of man who would've been a very loving father and left a very good example for his children on how to raise their own kids. Not justifying Cersei here, just saying that, on top of being a very deranged woman, she may not know any better.

In closing, Marg is awesome and Cersei is awful. I don't think Cersei is justified in any of her opinions on anyone, because she's crazy, paranoid, arrogant, and hateful.

Margaery's awesome?

She's lost 2 husbands in little time and she hasn't even pretended to mourn them for 5 minutes. She has jumped ship and barely blinked while doing it. She's as ruthless as anyone hoping to be seated on a throne must be. Why, in fact, isn't it Dany's noble personality what led to her making such huge and rather stupid/childish mistakes in Meereen? Margaery comes out as a likable character, yes, but I'm sure that rose has some very sharp thorns on her, too.

Cersei's awful? Well, IMO, not as awful as Lena Headey's portrayal of the character lol! But yes, she is. In my book, that doesn't make Margaery the total sweetheart she seems to be on paper, though.

[Tagganaro]

If she knew and approved of it, that means she went along with the plan. And, by being seated right there next to Joffrey, knowing full well what was coming to him, she is in fact, actively involved.

I was speaking in reply to the idea that Marg actively dropped the poison into the cup. That's what I meant by being actively involved. Poor choice of words I guess lol.

Second- I was saying that at least the Tyrells are really nice to Tommen, regardless of their motives, he enjoys their company. Cersei on the other hand is totally ruthless with him, regardless of her motives.

Third- Why the heck should Marg mourn for either of her husbands? Olenna stated that it was Mace and Garlan's desire for the throne that set these marriages in place. Marg's first husband was gay and was much more interested in her brother than her. Marg's second husband was a sadistic monster who treated his last wife like a prisoner and had her beaten almost on a daily basis.

Fourth- I like Lena Headey for one, but I'm more talking about Cersei in AFFC. She's a total paranoid monster who had several innocent people tortured, thought everyone but her was an idiot while the whole time she was the idiot, and singlehandedly destabilized King's Landing and the Lannister power base to the point where they went from having the most power to perhaps the least among the several families in KL. She actually did a worse job as King/Queen then Robert did, and that's saying something lol.

[Hielo y Fuego]

I was speaking in reply to the idea that Marg actively dropped the poison into the cup. That's what I meant by being actively involved. Poor choice of words I guess lol.

Oh okay, yeah well, that's entirely different, sure lol! And there's no proof of that, of course. Though she did drink from Joffrey's cup, which does turn her into an accessory to murder, at least, since that would make the boy king confident that he could drink. And IMO, that does constitute active involvement. Kinda like loading the gun and handing it to the shooter, even when you didn't pull the trigger yourself.

Second- I was saying that at least the Tyrells are really nice to Tommen, regardless of their motives, he enjoys their company...

And I agreed. I just said that their motives may just be to earn the boy's trust and get him on their corner. Not everyone has to mistreat a potential hostage, the way Cersei did with Sansa (not even the Lannisters as a whole, as Tyrion was always polite to Sansa and her conditions seemed to improve once Tywin was there calling the shots, IIRC).

As for Cersei, again, I believe her treatment of Tommen is based on her own upbringing and her deranged personality, not so much to her trying to be an ass to her own kid just for the sake of it. Overly protective mothers tend to be mean and prohibitive with/to their kids at times, "for their own good." So it's nothing out of the ordinary, IMO.

Third- Why the heck should Marg mourn for either of her husbands?...

I guess Marg should mourn her husbands to keep her public figure as a "victim" and "noble, sensible" queen, if nothing else. Keeping appearances in that sort of medieval setting was almost always a must for all those in power and it didn't really have anything to do with a person's feelings for the dead.

In that sense, Renly's sexual preferences or Joffrey's cruel and sadistic nature aren't relevant. The important thing,IMO, is how the commoners perceive their new young queen. Not indispensable, by any means, but important to save face in public (as well as not to raise suspicions amongst the nobles that you're a cold-hearted bitch like the Queen Regent, precisely ;))

Fourth- I like Lena Headey for one, but I'm more talking about Cersei in AFFC...

Well, my Lena Heady comment was just a joke. I think her portrayal of Cersei onscreen has got more to do with her being miscast for the role and the way the character was written than with her acting abilities. Don't like her in that role. As for the rest, I agree wholeheartedly. I have totally despised the Lioness of Lannister right off the bat. My point was that I just feel like Margaery is much more similar to Cersei than meets the eye. I just don't see her as the "sweet, innocent, pretty" girl she appears to be on paper. Far from it.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don't know about that. It seemed more like it was a LF/Olenna plot. I remember Margaery trying to pull Joffrey away from Tyrion and the poison, he was the one who went back and wouldn't give it up.

I read the wedding chapter very carefully trying to figure out exactly how Joff got poisoned, and I concluded there had to be a handoff of the poison from Olenna to Margaery, because the only way Margaery could be perfectly safe (i.e. she'd know when to stop drinking the wine) is if she poisoned it herself. As far as I could tell, even though Olenna approached the couple to encourage them to sit down, she never got that close to the chalice, once all the post joust excitement began. However, I also thought that the death scene was vaguely written – understandable from Tyrion's point of view, he could hardly keep track of everyone once Joff started pouring wine on him – so unless one or the other one fesses up, we'll never know.

If I have not totally missed important clues, there is also no indication that Marg tries to frame Tyrion & Sansa. Not that Cersei would need any egging on in that direction - but if anything, then the two dwarfs that Littlefinger hired could be seen as an attempt to provoke discord between Tyrion and Joffrey (and thus paint him as a more likely murderer).

I don't think Marg tried to frame Tyrion, but I'm sure Littlefinger at least hoped that would happen. He has to get rid of Sansa's husband somehow. I'm also sure that he wanted Sansa implicated, otherwise why would he give her the poison-studded hairnet? Suspicion also would fall upon Sansa because the murder was committed at a wedding, and could be considered payback for the Red Wedding. The other advantage to LF is that Sansa's much more dependent upon him as a fugitive who has to stay hidden.

And one thing I found fascinating about those Tyrells is how Garlan sat smiling at Tyrion and telling him about how unappreciated he was -- while he was in league with his sister and grandmother to murder his sister's new husband and frame poor Tyrion for it.

I think only the Tyrell women (and LF) were in on Joff's murder. Olenna makes it clear that she thinks Mace is a dolt, and Garlan strikes me as a genuinely good person, or at least as good a person as one's going to get in asoiaf.

On the other hand, the way the scene is written made me wonder what Tywin knew, and when he knew it . . . Tywin usually wouldn't tolerate the kind of scenes made by Joff, he wouldn't be at all amused by dwarf performers, and he wouldn't want to see his dwarf son make a spectacle of himself in front of half the nobles in the realm. He could have put a stop to the whole Joff/Tyrion charade just by raising his voice, but he didn't.

[Cydal]

I think it is likely Dany and Jaime. I will throw in a couple of other possible candidates to mull over.

In ADWD we see GRRM foreshadowing another Kingmoot for the IronBorn because Theon was not present at the previous one. The story seems to be leading to Asha becoming Queen of the IronBorn. However I can only see Stannis agreeing to release/pardon Asha and Theon if they agree to try and get the IronBorn to fight against his enemies and make peace with him and the North. So Stannis will require Asha and Theon to pledge to fight against the Lannisters. If Asha Greyjoy successfully takes control over the IronBorn as Queen, as part of her bargain with Stannis, the IronBorn would have to attack the Lannister's holdings - Lannisport and Casterly Rock.

If the IronBorn successfully capture Casterly Rock, then they would free Edmure, Lord of Riverrun, who is being held captive there. He would then be free to raise up the Riverlands again, and kick out the Lannister/Frey powerbase in the Riverlands. So Queen Asha Greyjoy will have taken from Cersei all the Lannister holdings that she holds dear - because all her status is derived from being a Lannister. Now she will be famous as the Lady of Casterly Rock who lost her seat to Queen Asha Greyjoy.

Another possible candidate, is Arianne Martel. She is quite likely to be offered to YG as his bride to seal an alliance between Aegon and Dorne. Remember Doran's original plan was to marry her to Viserys, so this would be very similar. If Arianne became Aegon's Queen, the alliance of Dorne and Aegon could overthrow Tommen's regime in King's Landing.

These are both speculative theories and are less likely than Dany overthrowing Cersei.

As for those who say that Dany has no beef with Cersei. This may be true, but Dany can only take power in King's Landing by overthrowing Cersei and Tommen. For Dany to achieve her goal of taking the Iron Throne she has to take from Cersei all she holds dear - her power.

If Asha makes peace with Stannis, that would make her a lady not a queen. So it can't be Asha then

[ARYa_Nym]

Crackpot theory:

Maybe Margaraey loses her trial so the Tyrells kill Tommen.

Then they marry Willas to Myrcella. She dies somehow. In the meantime Loras strangles Cersei.

[Alexia]

I think only the Tyrell women (and LF) were in on Joff's murder. Olenna makes it clear that she thinks Mace is a dolt, and Garlan strikes me as a genuinely good person, or at least as good a person as one's going to get in asoiaf.

Trust me, Garlan is just as conniving and smart as his sister and grandmother. Although I genuinely do like him, he was far nicer and more sympathetic to Sansa at her wedding to Tyrion (trying to provide some actual comfort to her) but at the same time, I've no doubt that he was flattering Tyrion as part of the scheme. He probably wanted to get Sansa back from Tyrion for the marriage with Willas (wouldn't be in the least surprised if he was in on it too) and there were very good reasons behind Joffrey's murder and Tyrion as the choice of person to frame. The Tyrells were fairly sure that Margaery would have gotten the Sansa-treatment and Loras would respond by killing Joffrey, which would set off war between them.

On the other hand, the way the scene is written made me wonder what Tywin knew, and when he knew it . . . Tywin usually wouldn't tolerate the kind of scenes made by Joff, he wouldn't be at all amused by dwarf performers, and he wouldn't want to see his dwarf son make a spectacle of himself in front of half the nobles in the realm. He could have put a stop to the whole Joff/Tyrion charade just by raising his voice, but he didn't.

He couldn't put a stop to it though; they were in public in front of half the realm and Joffrey was the king. He tried to put a stop to it by getting Joffrey to cut his pie.

[voodooqueen126]

It is correct that the prophecy has her on edge about Margaery, but it doesn't "cause her to make an enemy out of Margaery." Margaery does that nicely on her own. Do we agree? I'm thinking we do...

What I find interesting about Margaery is that she is every bit as much a conniving, scheming bitch as Cersei but we are all manipulated to like her better. She worked with her grandmother to marry Sansa to her brother for her claim to Winterfell, dropped Sansa like a hot potato when the Lannisters married her to Tyrion instead, murdered Cersei's son, has been working very systemically to undermine Cersei's power within the court, king and commons. In my thoughts, the reason we like her is because most of us hate Cersei (and Cersei is a bad person but I still like her a bit) and because she killed Joffrey (whom Cersei loved with a passion). Margaery herself, though...she has quite the ruthless streak to her. Unlike Cersei, she encases it in the velvet glove.

I think it is true that Margaery is every bit as coniving as Cersei, but to be coniving is not necessarily a bad thing. You know how people keep on talking about how Sansa is being reared by Littlefinger to be a manipulator but she will turn on him and rstore house Stark using the lessons she learnt from Littlefinger, well that isn't a bad thing although she will have to learn to be as coniving as Cersei to do so. So Margaery is the same, she knew that Joffrey was a monster and a king who did more damage in a year than Aerys did in 25 years, so she and her grandmother conspired to kill him and frame Tyrion (the smartest Lannister) and I think Sansa would have prefered to be married to a Tyrell who wants Winterfell then a Lannister who wants Winterfell (though as we all know Sansa despises anyone who wants to marry her for her claim to Wnterfell) so perhaps the Tyrells did feel a bit sorry for her.

Margaery is stealing Tommen from Cersei and doing things that encourage Tommen to a better person and a better king. So whilst she is Cersei's enemy, ruthless and coniving as Cersei. Her actions would leave Westeros better off (where as Cersei wanted Tommen to be disinterested in power so that she could be regent for as long as possible).

[sashk]

My crackpot theory:

"Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

another: why another queen?

younger and more beautiful: Cersei is no more "beautiful" after her walk across the city, so younger and more beautiful should be related to this "other" more than balancing beauty with Cersei.

all Cersei has is her position of power as queen regent, and she holds that dear

Everything will be decided in this aspect with the fight against undead GRegor

So I put my two cents on Sandor Clegane as champion of the faith to be this other.

"Another" brother came back from the death as Gregor is (Sandor is believed dead), who will kill his nemesis (Gregor) and so take all from Cersei

"Younger" brother

"More beautiful" in the sense he is no more the psychopatic brute he once was and now fights for a good cause....

Valonqar:

Arya Stark!

Cersei is on top of her list

Use of Valyrian brings to her IMO (valar morghulis)

[Alexia]

You know, continuing to think about the prophecy I wonder if Myrcella is really going to die. After all, if she was "crowned" by the Dornish there was also a very nearly successful assassination attempt on her. If that crowning fulfills the prophecy, then it seems very possible that the assassination attempt by Darkstar is what the witch referred to by the suggestion that Myrcella would die.

Tommen is toast but I think Myrcella has some chance of survival. Now that she's headed for KL, I don't know. She would have been much safer in Dorne.

[BladeDancer]

If Asha makes peace with Stannis, that would make her a lady not a queen. So it can't be Asha then

Disagree, due to the following. Stannis may not regard Asha as a Queen, and may require an oath of fealty from Asha. However Asha has to win power at the Kingsmoot. And the result of that will be her being acclaimed by the IronBorn as their Queen. For the purposes of fulfilling this Prophecy, it does not matter what Stannis thinks about who is a valid Queen.

The Prophecy is not about who Stannis regards as being a Queen. He would not accept Dany being the Queen, or Arianne Martel, or Sansa. He currently does not accept Margaeary being Queen and would not accept Myrcella either. So if the Prophecy accepted only Stannis' opinion on who was a Queen, then only Selyse could fulfill this Prophecy as Stannis only accepts her as being a valid Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. I doubt Selyse will be the one foretold - therefore I conclude that Stannis' opinion on whether Asha was a Queen or not is irrelevant.

[voodooqueen126]

Disagree, due to the following. Stannis may not regard Asha as a Queen, and may require an oath of fealty from Asha. However Asha has to win power at the Kingsmoot. And the result of that will be her being acclaimed by the IronBorn as their Queen. For the purposes of fulfilling this Prophecy, it does not matter what Stannis thinks about who is a valid Queen.

The Prophecy is not about who Stannis regards as being a Queen. He would not accept Dany being the Queen, or Arianne Martel, or Sansa. He currently does not accept Margaeary being Queen and would not accept Myrcella either. So if the Prophecy accepted only Stannis' opinion on who was a Queen, then only Selyse could fulfill this Prophecy as Stannis only accepts her as being a valid Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. I doubt Selyse will be the one foretold - therefore I conclude that Stannis' opinion on whether Asha was a Queen or not is irrelevant.

I don't know if Cersei gets set on fire but survives and becomes as ugly as Sandor, then maybe Selyse would be more beautiful than her :P