[ADWD Spoilers] Littlefinger big in TWOW

[RichardHaro]

-wall of text-

I think you don't give him enough credit. The fact that he was master of coin despite being low born is a testament to his skill. As is earning the trust of Ned Stark and a lot of others while at the same time not trusting them or divulging his goals or unnecessary information to them. Completely owning the loyalty of the city guard and Janos Slynt, is again, something that takes more than average skill. You could say he is a master of deception.

And managing to bring the Tyrells to the Lannister's side was also pretty impressive, don't you think?

As was having the balls to push Lysa Tully out of the door to her death and get away with it.

[Alexia]

As to Ned's execution: Yes, the hint in Cersei's chapter most likely is supposed to point towards the fact that Littlefinger spoiled the Stark-Lannister-peace because Cersei did not want to arrange a marriage between him and Sansa. But this makes little sense if you read AGoT/ACoK as the Cersei there never intended to dissolve the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa. So it makes little sense to assume she intended to marry her to a Lannister who was not Joffrey (instead of Littlefinger or Joffrey) back before Ned was executed.

I'll freely admit that I kinda look at that part as a retcon, but I do think it makes sense and isn't at odds with any part of the narrative previously set up that LF asked for her while thinking that Cersei would no longer want to marry her to Joffrey. I don't understand why Cersei wouldn't have thought of it in AFFC but whatever, it still works in the overall narrative (and AFFC/ADWD were supposed to be a single book, with this coming up in Cersei's final chapter of the single book). The idea that she was planning to marry Sansa to Lancel or some other Lannister is directly at odds with ACOK, OTOH. Asking for Sansa would have been incredibly presumptuous by hey, he already asked for Catelyn and went after Lysa.

Stealing Sansa away from the Lannisters after he himself is a great lord to take her with him to the Vale is also an idea he hatched rather early.

Yeah, Dontos appears in Sansa's second ACOK chapter. He came up with it almost immediately -- and in terms of his wish for a great seat, now I'm trying to remember the details of the marriage arrangement that Tyrion suggested for Robert Arryn and Myrcella.

As to Sansa's life: I'm sure Petyr himself is torn between 'Petyr' and 'Lord Littlefinger'. GRRM did not establish 'two personas' for nothing. And the young boy Petyr Baelish was once determined to sacrifice himself for Catelyn Tully, and the love they felt for each other (in his mind). So I'm not sure what Littlefinger would do if somebody forced him to choose between his life and the life of his 'daughter' and second Cat.

I don't believe there is any altruistic love involved here, though. It is a combination of lust, revenge, and inadequacy issues. I think that he might *pause* if he had to abandon Sansa to save his skin, and the pause could be fatal. But mostly, I think that Sansa is his blind spot and he won't be able to conceive of her acting against him. Doesn't he say that if you know what a man wants, you can use it to control him? Sansa knows perfectly well what LF wants, and by contrast, he's got no clue what she wants. He proves this through his attempts to control her by dangling a cute boy and Winterfell in front of her.

I think that Varys may have a decent chance of survival -- or not, because he is a villain, never doubt it. If Aegon succeeds in taking the throne, that might do it. But I still theorize that the kingdoms will divide again. I don't think we can make any sort of good prediction either way just yet.

[Tagganaro]

Yeah, Dontos appears in Sansa's second ACOK chapter. He came up with it almost immediately -- and in terms of his wish for a great seat, now I'm trying to remember the details of the marriage arrangement that Tyrion suggested for Robert Arryn and Myrcella.

I don't believe there is any altruistic love involved here, though. It is a combination of lust, revenge, and inadequacy issues. I think that he might *pause* if he had to abandon Sansa to save his skin, and the pause could be fatal. But mostly, I think that Sansa is his blind spot and he won't be able to conceive of her acting against him. Doesn't he say that if you know what a man wants, you can use it to control him? Sansa knows perfectly well what LF wants, and by contrast, he's got no clue what she wants. He proves this through his attempts to control her by dangling a cute boy and Winterfell in front of her.

I think that Varys may have a decent chance of survival -- or not, because he is a villain, never doubt it. If Aegon succeeds in taking the throne, that might do it. But I still theorize that the kingdoms will divide again. I don't think we can make any sort of good prediction either way just yet.

It's true that Sansa can destroy LF if she really wants to. I'd love it if she could finally take some initiative, I think it would be a great character arc and make total thematic sense for her to destroy LF. However, I'm still worried that she's too indebted to him for getting her out of KL. But this marriage idea on his part is an awful idea- She will most likely mess this up or seduce Harry and use him to turn on LF. I'm very interested to see what she comes up with.

As for Varys, why is he suddenly not a villain? Maybe I used to buy his spiel about acting for the good of the realm, but now it's clear that he's not. If he was, he would have never killed Kevan Lannister who was working and succeeding at fixing the realm after Cersei's disastrous rule. Varys is actually clearly a villain now- He's working to destabilize the realm in order to set the rule for his own Mummer's Dragon, all while ignoring the potentially catastrophic impact that can have when the Others finally arrive.

[The Undead Martyr]

He seems to have exhausted all of his friends, and only has Sansa left who is being married off. I feel he is coming to an end as the Vale does not seem to like him too much. But we all know how impenetrable the towers are in the Vale.

Not exactly. Jaime thinks that Littlefinger would be the "perfect hand" b/c he's competent and "too lowborn" to be a threat. :shocked:

Tyrion is really the only one who immediately sees him as the threat he really is. He recognizes that LF is a BFD b/c he's a diabolical schemer and knows how to use his low birth to remain discreet. "Nine out of every ten [customs officers, tax collectors, keeper of the keys, etc- basically the minor administrative people in Westeros] belonged to LF. No one questioned the appointments, and why should they? Everyone's friend, able to find whatever gold the King or his council required, of low birth, no great keep or army of retainers."

Basically, his only enemies right now are Varys and Tyrion. While they are certainly clever enough to compete with him, they need a power base and AUTHORITY to do so. Tyrion, as acting hand of the king in ACOK, thought "do I dare touch him even if he's a traitor?" If the HAND couldn't safely dispose of LF, then two traitors/exiles won't, either. Not without a FM, anyway.

Long term, yes, both of them could be a problem- IF Aegon/Dany take the Throne, Varys/Tyrion MIGHT end up in a position to threaten LF. Of course, LF is probably aware of this (and Dany/Aegon) and is planning accordingly... Chess Grandmasters can only compete if they have pieces to play, and LF has a lot more pieces to work with. Varys/Tyrion would need to take on LF and rebuild their power base at the same time- virtually impossible to do, given how evenly they are matched and how well informed LF is.

Basically, Sansa and/or the Others are the only ways I see LF getting taken down. No one else has the power and ability to do it right now.

[Alexia]

As for Varys, why is he suddenly not a villain?

You are preaching to the choir. I fear my previous post may have been misconstrued because I said that one should never doubt that Varys is a villain and for this specific reason I am not sure he will be alive at the end of the narrative.

[Tagganaro]

You are preaching to the choir. I fear my previous post may have been misconstrued because I said that one should never doubt that Varys is a villain and for this specific reason I am not sure he will be alive at the end of the narrative.

yeah, I completely agree. I was reading through some of the posts on here and they seemed to say: LF is bad, he's just trying to get what he wants, but Varys is good because he's working for the good of the realm. Why?

[The Greatmatt]

As for Varys, why is he suddenly not a villain? Maybe I used to buy his spiel about acting for the good of the realm, but now it's clear that he's not. If he was, he would have never killed Kevan Lannister who was working and succeeding at fixing the realm after Cersei's disastrous rule. Varys is actually clearly a villain now- He's working to destabilize the realm in order to set the rule for his own Mummer's Dragon, all while ignoring the potentially catastrophic impact that can have when the Others finally arrive.

I think you get nowhere trying to label someone like Varys as a hero or a villain. Is someone who does bad things in the name of a good cause a hero or villain? Now, if you truly believe that Varys is working for a bad cause, that's one thing, but to me that's a huge uncertainty.

Now I can see the argument "No matter if he's trying to put a better king in place, the chaos in the realm he's inducing, particularly at a time where the Others threaten, make what he's doing a bad thing.", but again, it's just not clear cut to me.

[Alexia]

Is someone who does bad things in the name of a good cause a hero or villain? Now, if you truly believe that Varys is working for a bad cause, that's one thing, but to me that's a huge uncertainty.

So your position is that the end justifies the means? I completely disagree, and I did a happy dance when Ser Kevan and Pycelle died because the Lannisters are finally getting Stark-ed.

[The Greatmatt]

yeah, I completely agree. I was reading through some of the posts on here and they seemed to say: LF is bad, he's just trying to get what he wants, but Varys is good because he's working for the good of the realm. Why?

You don't think end goals are an important part of what makes someone good or bad?

Let's also remember that Littlefinger basically started a war between the Lannisters and Starks that didn't need to exist at all for evidently the purpose of 1) Destroying a good man, 2) Getting revenge on the one woman he ever loved, 3) Going pedo on her daughter, and 4) General personal game. While I love LF as a character, this is NOT a good person by any stretch of the imagination.

With Varys, we just don't know. He could turn out to be even worse than LF, but there is plenty of reason to believe he isn't.

I'll also admit that I'm hoping he turns out to be a relatively good guy simply because I'd find that more interesting. Having a character willing to do every bad thing imaginable to accomplish a good ends is always interesting, and having it come from a meek-demeanored eunuch instead of Clint Eastwood is pretty awesome.

[ARYa_Nym]

LF IS evil. I don't believe he cared about Cat after she rejected him. I don't believe he genuinely cares for Sansa either. It's just sex, revenge, and power to him. Let's not forget he gave Jeyne Poole to that monster Ramsay Bolton. He could have found a random northern girl but he specifically sent her only friend.

[The Greatmatt]

So your position is that the end justifies the means? I completely disagree, and I did a happy dance when Ser Kevan and Pycelle died because the Lannisters are finally getting Stark-ed.

My position is that the ends make things less black & white and more gray, and that sometimes a gray person can do more to make the world a better place than a perfectly good person can.

[Alexia]

LF IS evil. I don't believe he cared about Cat after she rejected him. I don't believe he genuinely cares for Sansa either. It's just sex, revenge, and power to him. Let's not forget he gave Jeyne Poole to that monster Ramsay Bolton. He could have found a random northern girl but he specifically sent her only friend.

Don't forget that Jeyne was prostituted and terribly abused before she was sent North, too. In one of LF's brothels.

My position is that the ends make things less black & white and more gray, and that sometimes a gray person can do more to make the world a better place than a perfectly good person can.

Yeah, that sounds kind of like what the Khmer Rouge thought they were doing. :stillsick:

[littlespider]

I have to admit that I'm very heavily Varys-biased before going on. I think Varys is the man, AA reborn, a total stud who still secretly has balls, and all that. I also think it's a total mistake to label him (or LF, tho I hate LF), or perhaps even anyone in GRRM's books, as a villain. Well, except for unequivocal evils like Gregor, Ramsay, and their ilk. I just don't think that Martin is setting up his books this way. But that conversations for another day...

It seems like we're doing best guesses at LF's motivations, though some of them (more power, more $$, getting Cat, and failing that perving on Sansa) seem to be pretty clear. We're also doing best guesses with Varys, though. Like, if Varys is really working for a stable realm and peace, wouldn't it make more sense to see Cersei out of the way, support Kevan (who seems like he's bringing some real stability to the Lannister regime) and see Tommen well-educated and informed, rather than trying to bring in Targaryen exiles whose family has a history of bat-shit crazy? (Speculative points, I know, since Varys is outlawed at this point.)

LF has in some ways functioned as a Loki/wildcard figure, and he comes completely out of left field frequently. He and Varys are both brilliant, though I think LF is a playah at a local level, whereas Varys is a playah of the global game. And when we last left LF, even though he had his strategies all worked out, wasn't he in a somewhat tenuous position with the Vale lords regarding his regency? He had plans to manipulate them, but he hadn't solidified their allegiance yet, right? (Someone correct me if I'm off here.)

I have no doubt that if given a choice between his own life and Sansa's, he'd waste Sansa in a second. And I'm not even sure it would give him pause. We've never actually seen the guy display genuine emotion, hesitation, or seen him in any kind of real moral dilemma. His only weakness appears to be in a backstory that took place years before GoT started, though I'm inclined to agree with readers who suspect that his only current weakness is his lust for Sansa.

Agreed with another poster that his only clear enemies at this point are Tyrion and Varys, both of whom are politically out of commission until a Targ takeover. What I'd really like to see is Tyrion and Sansa take down LF; those two working together would be a thing of beauty, though I'm not a fan of them staying married.

On a side note, I'd be interested to see what Tyrion's reaction would be to LF abducting and perving on Sansa. I think Tyrion would honestly be pretty pissed and protective of her.

[Tagganaro]

You don't think end goals are an important part of what makes someone good or bad?

Let's also remember that Littlefinger basically started a war between the Lannisters and Starks that didn't need to exist at all for evidently the purpose of 1) Destroying a good man, 2) Getting revenge on the one woman he ever loved, 3) Going pedo on her daughter, and 4) General personal game. While I love LF as a character, this is NOT a good person by any stretch of the imagination.

With Varys, we just don't know. He could turn out to be even worse than LF, but there is plenty of reason to believe he isn't.

I'll also admit that I'm hoping he turns out to be a relatively good guy simply because I'd find that more interesting. Having a character willing to do every bad thing imaginable to accomplish a good ends is always interesting, and having it come from a meek-demeanored eunuch instead of Clint Eastwood is pretty awesome.

Why is it good when Varys does it but bad when Littlefinger does it? You can pretty much take your summary of LF and apply it to Varys word-for-word. Varys is basically continuing a war by destroying a good man (Kevan) in order to throw the realm back into chaos so his own candidate for power can more easily take power. By killing Kevan (I don't care how well schooled Aegon has been to rule, if he even is Aegon, he won't be a better ruler than Kevan, who is the perfect ruler because he's like Tywin without the psychopathy and murderous rage), Varys has now put the realm back in the hands of maniacal Cersei fighting with the incredibly greedy Tyrells, not to mention Dorne is about to enter the mix as well.

How can this be good? And Varys actually specifically said this to Kevan as he was wounded about to die. He said Kevan was doing too good of a job of fixing Cersei's problems, and that he needs Lannisters and Tyrells at war in order to make it easier for Aegon to take power.

[Brucolac]

He sent Jeyne because she had personal knowledge of the Starks and would hold better under scrutiny, less coaching and she would actually know more than him. It was not out of spite.

You have to wonder how much gold he has tucked away from the treasury in his own ventures and investments. He might be the second richest man in the Seven Kingdoms and if he does get Harry the Heir, he will have control of the vale army. Until he actually does that, I don't see him being able to get enough support to call them to arms.

The north is not an immediate power and it is only going to get worse with winter, so being able to use Sansa would only be a long term venture.

I don't find it likely that his long term goal is King, because I don't think he really believes that it is a position of true power or one that he could ever be accepted as. Regent or Hand seem his likely endgame.

[the Scorpion Knight]

He sent Jeyne because she had personal knowledge of the Starks and would hold better under scrutiny, less coaching and she would actually know more than him. It was not out of spite.

that doesn't make forcing an 13year old child into prostitution and sending it to a KNOWN serial killer as a future wife better.

You have to wonder how much gold he has tucked away from the treasury in his own ventures and investments. He might be the second richest man in the Seven Kingdoms and if he does get Harry the Heir, he will have control of the vale army. Until he actually does that, I don't see him being able to get enough support to call them to arms.

I doubt he will gain controll of the vale army

The north is not an immediate power and it is only going to get worse with winter, so being able to use Sansa would only be a long term venture.

IMHO its only going to get worse for the rest once the forces at the wall and the rest of the northern host join forces and move south

I don't find it likely that his long term goal is King, because I don't think he really believes that it is a position of true power or one that he could ever be accepted as. Regent or Hand seem his likely endgame.

i Don't think he cares less about it. but I doubt he'l live till the middle of the next book

[Alexia]

that doesn't make forcing an 13year old child into prostitution and sending it to a KNOWN serial killer as a future wife better.

An eleven year old child, Jeyne was the same age as Sansa when LF took control of her. Her body is scarred from repeated beatings after he installed her in one of her brothels.

I want to see him burn in the seven hells for all eternity. That character makes me sick. :stillsick:

[ARYa_Nym]

It doesn't have to be spiteful. The fact that he was willing to send Jeyne tells me that he has no morals. Judge a man by his actions and not his words.

[The Bronze Wyvern]

My favourite Littlefinger moment is him telling Sansa that he arranged the jousting dwarves! Priceless.

I tend to think that Varys and Littlefinger will both die, in time, Varys at Dany's command, Littlefinger at Sansa's (or- going out on a limb- Faceless Man Arya gets a mission...).

I think the thing about the game is that, as LF says, the pieces don't always make the moves you want or expect them to. Doran suffers from this: he sends Quentyn to Dany, but he is a) too late and B) unaware that Dany is shallow and likes dudes with blue beards. Varys and Illyrio are desperate to delay the civil war in AGOT because they're not ready yet. LF didn't expect Cersei to mess up quite so quickly. Given all of that, I don't know if it's possible to say who is or isn't the best player- because we don't know the result yet, and as other posters have said, the Others may well render all of this moot.

One more thing: the series started with Ned influencing the reader to believe in the honourable Stark rules of government: he who passes the sentence must swing the sword, intriguing and plotting is poisonous, you need to know your people if you expect to lead them, etc...I think that the series will likely end with a return to those values; it would be nicely circular. For this to happen, LF and Varys have to go. And I reckon they will.

[the Scorpion Knight]

It doesn't have to be spiteful. The fact that he was willing to send Jeyne tells me that he has no morals. Judge a man by his actions and not his words.

to parapharse varys in the series(in meaning not in words): morally bankrupt, but pokets full of ambition

I think the northerners will be quite pissed at LF after they find out what he did