[ADWD Spoilers] Littlefinger big in TWOW

[Duskfire]

I don't think he has a big role left to play. He already has done so much damage to the realm and helped ensure that the Others' invasion and the harsh winter will be so much more terrible than they needed to be. He's reached the peak of his power (the only thing above his current station is the Iron Throne, and that he can't get), so, dramatically speaking, this is the perfect moment for him to be brought down.

You really think that once he gets firm control of the Vale thats it, he'll be happy with that? No way. This is someone who has manipulated events that put powerful families up against one another, who has sleazed and swindled his way to the top, and who has done it so subtlely and so unremarkably that the majority of characters have absolutely no idea he had anything to do with anything. I dont know what his plan is, but its heck of alot more then just the Vale.

[Arthanis]

You really think that once he gets firm control of the Vale thats it, he'll be happy with that? No way. This is someone who has manipulated events that put powerful families up against one another, who has sleazed and swindled his way to the top, and who has done it so subtlely and so unremarkably that the majority of characters have absolutely no idea he had anything to do with anything. I dont know what his plan is, but its heck of alot more then just the Vale.

Exactly. Littlefinger's plan just started working. He clearly said he is playing game of thrones, so his final goal is not less then control over entire Westeros. Questions are:

- Is he working for himself, or is he some kind of "faction ambassador" working for greater power? (bravos, Iron Bank etc.) Or is he ruling this greater power secretely?

- He want Sansa because she is younger and more beauty version of women he loved, or he need her for her rights to Winterfell and North? (maybe both?)

- What he did in Pre-Robert era? Anything important to series?

- What is his final goal (if Westeros is not enough...)?

[The North Remembers]

I think after Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn he went with them, in some financial capacity. He impressed so much that he was eventually elevated to Master of Coin.

[Arthanis]

I think after Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn he went with them, in some financial capacity. He impressed so much that he was eventually elevated to Master of Coin.

Yes, it's truth. But events BEFORE it are more interesting. Maybe it's totally meaningless... but please note:

- Brandon Stark, man who was going to marry Cat won duel against littlefinger... Brandon is dead soon (littlefinger officially did nothing)

- Ned Stark, Cat Husband, is dead (littlefinger officialy did nothing)

- Jeoffey, boy who was going to marry Sansa and who was total motherf@@@@@ is dead (killed by LF)

- Ser Dantos, man who wanted to became Snasa "Florian" is dead (killed by LF)

- Lysa, who wanted to kill Sansa, is dead (killed by LF)

- Marillion who wanted to rape Sansa, is dead (killed by LF)

What I mean:

Maybe there is Littlefinger behind Brandon death?

[Alexia]

I don't see anything in here to indicate that Varys kills us off all his birds once they reach a certain age, but rather only that being a bird is a very dangerous job.

So your position is that the tongue-less, literate birds are casually retired out and sent to the farm for mute ex-birds where they and their secrets are kept under guard for the rest of that natural lives? Forgive me if I'm a skeptic, those birds are ending up in bowls of brown. Not to mention that many of them apparently die when their tongues are extracted.

There's also the matter that Varys is an adult, and appears to be able to get around the undercastle with great facility, implying that reliance on child-size humans is not necessarily *that* necessary.

When Tyrion was going after Tywin, there was a place in the walls where he says that any normal sized man would have to crawl on hands and knees but Tyrion was able to walk upright. And then...

Finally, a place made for dwarfs.

No dear, it is a place made for birds. Rather, tongueless children.

[Raksha the Demon]

Varys can babble on about how he's doing it for the children, but he's abused and thrown away (probably killed) untold numbers of children, probably hundreds or more. Unless he means the Targaryen children. Varys is one of the smartest and most capable characters, but he is not a nice or even a good man in my opinion...

[Raksha the Demon]

Because of this, I think LF, unlike as some posters suggested, will not bat too much of an eye at choosing his hide over Sansa's. He plays off his own men against one another because he doesn't want to be in a position where they can entirely ruin his plans. Varys' end game is over if YG dies, loses, or otherwise doesn't act in accordance of his wishes. Varys could try to ingratiate himself to Daenerys but Selmy would act as a counter. The Lannisters want him dead, and I'd wager Stannis would dispose of him quite swiftly. While Sansa is certainly a vulnerable pawn that could unravel his plan to secure the North, LF still has other options with the Vale, as a Riverland lord, and his sterling reputation to the West.

I think there is no question that Littlefinger would choose his hide over Sansa's. She is extremely valuable to him, his greatest prize and most valuable pawn, but I think that Littlefinger is too selfish a man to ever risk himself to protect another; with the possible exception of Catelyn when they were both young, before Cat was married. (Littlefinger did risk his life to win Cat, by challenging and fighting Brandon Stark) Littlefinger would regret losing Sansa, but he'd dump her to protect himself.

[Arthanis]

I think there is no question that Littlefinger would choose his hide over Sansa's. She is extremely valuable to him, his greatest prize and most valuable pawn, but I think that Littlefinger is too selfish a man to ever risk himself to protect another; with the possible exception of Catelyn when they were both young, before Cat was married. (Littlefinger did risk his life to win Cat, by challenging and fighting Brandon Stark) Littlefinger would regret losing Sansa, but he'd dump her to protect himself.

It depends of his feelings to Sansa. He was able to risk his life for Cat, he may be able to do same for younger, innocent and more beautiful version of Cat. Sansa is definitely main Littlefinger's weakness. IMO Littlefinger want her to love him, he want to turn her into both his lover and apprentice just because she reminds him only women he ever loved. He captured Sansa more for his pleasure then for his plan, and probably he want her to stay with him after game of thrones is over.

[Ishuäl]

) unaware that Dany is shallow and likes dudes with blue beards.

Hilarious, couldn't have put it better myself :D

So, concerning the whole hero/villain debate... I'm actually quite surprised that people are discussing this at this point in the story... I think one of the main points Martin makes is that there are no heroes and villains as you would find in classic fantasy. I for one can only admire LF's insight and skill with which he pursues what he wants, same for Varys... In the end, they're just people with different sets of goals and motivations, and good and evil does not really come into it, which makes the series much closer to life (and one of the reasons I cannot stand the unlikely-good-guy-finds-a-sword-and-kills-the-bad-dark-lord stories anymore...) Obviously you could argue that people like Joffrey or Ramsay are not good guys, and noone would disagree, but I think a major point of the story is that there are only shades of grey and not black and white...

Concerning LF and his plans... I'll be very interested in how this turns out. Judging from AFFC I'd say Sansa is becoming his apprentice, and what good apprentice does not kill the master eventually? It makes me fear for poor LF, but Sansa as master manipulator, not the sloppy screw-ups of someone like Cersei... That would be cool to see.

[Winterfelon]

Concerning LF and his plans... I'll be very interested in how this turns out. Judging from AFFC I'd say Sansa is becoming his apprentice, and what good apprentice does not kill the master eventually? It makes me fear for poor LF, but Sansa as master manipulator, not the sloppy screw-ups of someone like Cersei... That would be cool to see.

I think Sansa's situation is delicate and much depends on what route LF decides to take her on and how fast he moves.

She's not ready to be the master manipulator yet and we know that if you make an ill-advised move in 'the game' (Theon) you generally come off worst.

So - I put forward, we might be in for Sansa having to make a move before she's ready and LF busting her...

[Ishuäl]

So - I put forward, we might be in for Sansa having to make a move before she's ready and LF busting her...

Interesting, I think that one of Sansa's main advantages is that LF has a blind spot where she's concerned. Otherwise he might be clear and rational, but Sansa is too much Cat in his mind for him to be unimpaired.

[Winterfelon]

Interesting, I think that one of Sansa's main advantages is that LF has a blind spot where she's concerned. Otherwise he might be clear and rational, but Sansa is too much Cat in his mind to be clear and rational about.

Yeah - true that, she does currently enjoy an advantage few others seem to. And of course, if he did bust her, what would he do? Kill her? Unlikely for the reasons you mention, but he may give her a less pleasant destiny than he might otherwise have done.

However there have though been many great points made here which counter that scenario about people's personal indiscretions (most notably Robb - you silly boy!) being their downfall rather than their day job.

To me it's strongly implied that Sansa's gonna make a move at some point, so I guess it's a case of if she's successful or not!

Guess we'll find out in ten years.

Or so. :P

[littlebird_]

Yeah - true that, she does currently enjoy an advantage few others seem to. And of course, if he did bust her, what would he do? Kill her? Unlikely for the reasons you mention, but he may give her a less pleasant destiny than he might otherwise have done.

To me it's strongly implied that Sansa's gonna make a move at some point, so I guess it's a case of if she's successful or not!

If he does find out he'll definitely kill her but I think his blind spot means that he won't be suspicious until its too late, I do think Sansa will make a move at some point and her one advantage is that she is one person Littlefinger is not expecting a move from, if he was rational about her he would realize that he can't keep the status quo as it is but he can't think rationally when it concerns her

[Wouter]

I think one of the main points Martin makes is that there are no heroes and villains as you would find in classic fantasy. I for one can only admire LF's insight and skill with which he pursues what he wants, same for Varys... In the end, they're just people with different sets of goals and motivations, and good and evil does not really come into it, which makes the series much closer to life

I think you are misreading Martin - Martin says that everybody is the hero of his own tale, but this does not mean there are no heroes and villains in his books. Even Joffrey no doubt considered himself to be in the right, only insisting on his due. If "good and evil doesn't come into it", then Joffrey and Ramsay and Gregor are also "just people with different sets of goals and motivations".

Littlefinger and Varys both are power-hungry manipulators who have caused the deaths of thousands in pursuit of their goals. Both together are the main cause for the entire war of the five kings (together with the incest), and Varys also had a hand in the rebellion against the Targs before that. If Westeros is now in complete shambles to face winter and the Others, those 2 gentlemen are heavily responsible for that. They also have shown that they use people, even children, without any mercy or conscience. Both seem to be extremely dangerous sociopaths.

If anything, both are like pitch black instead of gray. It doesn't get much worse.

[Ishuäl]

If "good and evil doesn't come into it", then Joffrey and Ramsay and Gregor are also "just people with different sets of goals and motivations".

That is exactly what I am saying. It is you who judges Joffrey, not Joffrey. He has a reason for doing what he does, he did not get up one morning and think "I'm going to be evil and a terrible king". That's all I'm saying. Also, I resent the reproach as to misreading the series :) I am merely pointing out that, for example, Theon, who everyone surely agrees would be classified a villain in earlier books, does have a heroic moment in ADwD. The borders are fuzzy, and that's what makes Martin's character more lifelike.

Martin says that everybody is the hero of his own tale, but this does not mean there are no heroes and villains in his books

See, that's contradictory to me. While I agree with the first statement, the second seems to contradict it, because then it's the reader who judges, and as we all know, judgment is subjective and varies from reader to reader. So no, I don't think you can label heroes and villains, as is the case in vanilla fantasy.

As for Varys and LF, I agree that LF's motivations are surely to his own benefit, but I don't believe Varys is entirely oblivious to the threat of the Others. His original plans were just thwarted by Tyrion's whispers and Dany's irrationality.

[RickD]

Yes, it's truth. But events BEFORE it are more interesting. Maybe it's totally meaningless... but please note:

...

What I mean:

Maybe there is Littlefinger behind Brandon death?

Littlefinger had no power at the time. His path to power came first as Arryn's advisor, and then he came to King's Landing when Robert became King. He was never an advisor to Aerys Targaryen.

[longlivestark]

Littlefinger seems at bit just a bit, better at the game then Varys. Littlefinger won the Vale and the Trident, killed a King, and gained control of the only widely KNOWN living Stark, and did all of this without anyone suspecting him at all, outsmarting Tyrion, Cersei, and Tywin. Varys more impressive skill is not his planning (which kind of sucks considering all his failures), but his ability to make do with a situation even when the plan goes horribly wrong. He didn't plan on Viserys dying, Ned's execution, and Aegon's early invasion, but made due with what he had. But with all that being said, I still believe Vary's won't make it to the end of the story, there is no way that at the end of ADOS that Aegon will sit on the Iron Throne and if Dany does make it to the throne she will not trust Varys, not with Tyrion and Barristan as her primary advisors, of course I don't believe Dany will be on the throne either, but then again I have NO idea who will sit on the throne, so....

[Jon AS]

You really think that once he gets firm control of the Vale thats it, he'll be happy with that? No way. This is someone who has manipulated events that put powerful families up against one another, who has sleazed and swindled his way to the top, and who has done it so subtlely and so unremarkably that the majority of characters have absolutely no idea he had anything to do with anything. I dont know what his plan is, but its heck of alot more then just the Vale.

Of course Littlefinger won't be happy with what he's got. He'll never be happy, because at the end of the day, no matter how much power and wealth he amasses, the older nobility will always look down on him. The only thing he could possibly hope for is that a few generations down the line the Baelishs will no longer be seen as lowborn upstarts, but he won't live to see that.

Realistically, the power he wields now is about as much as he can hope for. If he tries for more, even the not-so-bright members of the nobility will begin to see his influence and will oppose him, and in the end all his power is founded on money and manipulation, he doesn't command personal loyalty, nor can he draw on a big family name, so he will ultimately fail if he overreaches himself. The jury is still out on whether his great success has made him overconfident, and of course there's always the possibility of Sansa figuring him out and bringing him down.

[the Scorpion Knight]

. The jury is still out on whether his great success has made him overconfident, and of course there's always the possibility of Sansa figuring him out and bringing him down.

my bet is on both

[Marcus Cicero]

I'm sure everyone would agree that Littlefinger has two primary goals:

Accumulate as much power and wealth as possible

Bang Sansa

Whether or not he lives will be determined by how he prioritizes them. If he places emotion and love above his professional ambitions, then both goals will fail. Currently, banging Sansa doesn't seem to be his primary focus. Yeah, he kisses her every now and then, but he is willing to marry her off to another guy to further both of their ends (or just his own ends).

In my opinion, Varys is the most overrated player in the game of thrones. First of all, the Dothraki alliance plan was just idiotic. Yeah, the Dothraki have strength, but if there's any way to unite the Seven Kingdoms behind the Baratheons or Lannisters, it would be a Dothraki invasion in the name of some other king. It's one thing for Tywin's or Robb's forces to do some foraging and raping, but to have 40000 foreign "savages" living off the land, that would really piss everybody off. Birthright suddenly wouldn't matter that much, unless the dragons accompanied the invaders (something that Varys could NOT have predicted). Unless for some weird reason it wasn't really his plan, this was a very very stupid idea.