The Pirate and the Reaver

[Celiana]

I'm really not understanding why people are making such a big deal out of this. They've changed god knows how many other things in the TV series, why is everyone suddenly talking about this casting?

Making the series more diverse can only be a good thing in my mind. Fantasy, as a genre, often has very few important and/or strong characters of colour, and I'm encouraged when I see high-profile TV shows like this trying to challenge that. And even though it wasn't how he was described in the books, Salladhor Saan was always black in my mind.

As Knurk said, I don't think a TV audience are going to be sitting there, picking over the ethnicities of the characters from one particular area. Unless someone in-show specifically points it out, it probably won't even cross their minds. It's not as if they decided to make the wildlings all black, or made Joffrey Asian; that would hardly make sense. But Lys is one of the Free Cities, close to the Summer Isles and the Basilisk Isles. I realise it's a fairly insular and inward looking society, but it's on a tiny island; it's likely that a lot of the population would be immigrants. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that his parents sailed over and he was born there. He's a pirate, it's possible his father was also in the sailing business.

And everyone keeps talking about how the whiteness or blonde hair-edness of the Lyseni is going to be a possible future plot point. I'm sorry, but this appears to have completely passed me by. Can anyone tell me what on earth this plot point could be? And even if it is true, I hardly think that having one black Lyseni on the TV show, amongst a majority of white people, is going to affect the plot points of the book.

And as for Ran, saying how you don't see what's so interesting about diversity; if the show continued to be all about white people, casting nothing but white actors, the producers were going to isolate a huge number of their viewers, including me. I'm still praying they don't make an absolute hash out of the Dornish. There isn't nearly enough diversity on TV at the moment, so it's no bad thing to represent all kinds of people, or give work to actors who otherwise might not have any, had the producers stuck fanatically to the books.

[benadgatemusic]

I think the "book readers" are making such a fuss because, honestly, they've been waiting for this series to end since the mid-90s. They have a severe, depressing, and frightening form of cabin fever. And this is causing them to be up in arms about things as trivial as the race of an actor.

[Ran]

I'd hardly call myself up in arms. I certainly want Msamati as Salladhor Saan, or Anozi as Xaro. But I'd like the show to be as thoughtful about these things as I hope one wants them to be thoughtful about all aspects of the show in respect to adaptation.

I completely agree that they shouldn't cast anything but "white" actors. That's not true to the setting. But this show is already more ethnically diverse than The Sopranos, Rome, or Deadwood, three other much-lauded HBO shows, and pretending otherwise is strange.

I'd like to see Jhalabhar Xho and Chataya and Alayaya. I'd like to see Quhuru Mo. If we get far enough, I'd love to see Xhondo, Alleras, Moqorro, and so on. I'm looking forward to Msamati as Salla and Anozi as Xaro. But I'd like the world-building to be given a bit of respect and not just treated as if this setting can be as loopily unreal as Xena. There's a deliberateness to every choice GRRM has made.

[Celiana]

Even though the show is still more ethnically diverse than other HBO shows, it's still overwhelmingly populated by white actors. Which isn't a bad thing, but just because there is a higher-than-average number of POCs doesn't mean that we should protest the adding of more. I'd rather have many roles filled by black actors, than have a few just thrown in by the producers as tokens to 'appease the masses' as I saw someone put it.

Saying

But this show is already more ethnically diverse than ...

makes it sound like you think there's a quota of non-whites to put in a show, and then you're done. Like, oh god, they're not casting more POCs, look how many there are already!

I know that's probably not what you meant, but that's what it sounds like.

I don't see why casting non-white actors for relatively minor roles is seen as disrespecting GRRM's worldbuilding. If you look around you today, you'd struggle to find a major city or area populated by people of only one ethnicity. I know there was less mixing of societies and cultures back in those days, but they still had ships, horses etc. People still travelled about.

I don't see why it's so unreal or unbelievable that there would be a black person living in Lys. Yes, it might be more than 90% white, but I'd be honestly surprised if GRRM came out and said that there was not a single POC living in Lys, and I think it's a ridiculous thing to assume that every single person in Lys is white.

As eleusis said:

"This city can't possibly have black people in it!" is always a pretty ridiculous thing to say, no matter how delicately you choose to phrase it.

POC = person of colour, if anyone was unsure.

[Knurk]

The diversity in season 1 was pretty non-existent in my eyes, save from a few dark dothraki-extras. Comparing this with diversity in documentaries, that is apples and oranges. Comparing it with other shows and movies makes more sense and I always cringe at those all white or all black romantic comedies. This is TV and not the book, George's worldbuilding is all and well, the HBO world building will be far more simplistic, this change will be all for the better and it definately won't hurt the story which is priority number one. People already worrying about

Griff being from Lys (which is by no means a MAJOR plot point) should brace themselves, if we ever get that far noone wil care he's maybe from Lys, and the showrunners most definately can have an easy solution for that.

[benadgatemusic]

Ran-You refuse to get over it and stop talking about it, so yes, you are up in arms.

[mummer]

I'd hardly call myself up in arms. .... But I'd like the world-building to be given a bit of respect and not just treated as if this setting can be as loopily unreal as Xena. There's a deliberateness to every choice GRRM has made.

Even though you're not ranting and raving, this is the kind of thing that does make you sound (to me) pretty far over the top. It's just not true that "there's a deliberateness to every choice GRRM has made." Martin has explicitly said that there are plenty of details in the books that he doesn't consider to be particularly important - they're "deliberate" in the sense that he was aware of the words he was typing, but not in the sense that they had to be done that way to be true to his vision. You're looking at it from the perspective of a very, very, very dedicated fan who's very, very, very familiar with all the details, and you're assuming that the books and the show are both meant to be approached in that way.

I mean, seriously, how many references in dialogue on the show do you think there will be to Salla's country of origin, or the name of his ship? I'm guessing zero, in which case his putatively Valyrian* background is just not a fact in the world of the show, any more than Renly's long hair is. Same thing with Xaro being a native Qartheen. All these problematic implications you're seeing, that you think are so in conflict with Martin's world-building, are meaningless, because there's just no freaking reason why every fact you can derive from the books has to be reflected on screen, except to satisfy the fannish desire for everything to be an Easter egg. And I don't mean to mock that desire! I totally get it! I just think it's worth having some perspective and a sense of humor about it.

* Oh yeah, about the Valyrian thing... I really don't think Salla naming his ship that way proves anything about his heritage. For people on both sides of the Narrow Sea, "Valyrian" is a signifier of cool, impressive, powerful, rich, etc. - something a flamboyant guy like Salla would want to associate himself with whether or not it was true.

[mummer]

Also, Ran, at first I missed the point you raised about the demographics of Lys being a "potentially important plot point"... but seriously, I think that's a huge stretch. It's something that's been barely mentioned in the last five books - I'd be really surprised if more than 10% of serious readers have a clue what you're referring to. And we know that GRRM hasn't been shy about telling the showrunners when some decision they're making now might have an effect on future plot developments... so you're basically saying that if there's something that you, a fan, imagine might become important later on, they should pay more attention to your concern than to the writer and co-executive producer who actually knows where the plot is going.

[Ran]

GRRM has noted he has no veto rights, and that they have cast actors that he wouldn't have chosen.

But if they make no reference to Salladhor Saan's origin (or give him a different origin), then it seems to me that they are, indeed, quite aware of the world-building that's going on and are acting appropriately.

Like I said, end of the day, it's a matter of consistency and some level of respect for the world-building that's going on. If something's worth adapting, it's worth adapting well.

(Interestingly enough, at Worldcon George apparently put forward that in his personal view, book to film adaptations should be as faithful as possible, within the constraints of the medium and budget and so on. You find the right actor but they look entirely wrong? Tweak the details to make it work, ala Shae being from Essos rather than Westeros, rather than creating incongruities.)

[Ariadne Snow]

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with making Saan black, I always saw him as Arabic/Persian looking myself - but he's a 2nd/3rd tier character at best and changing his skin colour/place of origin has absolutely no bearing on the story/plot at all in my opinion. You must remember that only a tiny percentage of book readers obsess about details, ask the vast majority of book readers what Sallador Saan looks like/is from and they'll go - who?

The show is going to have differences to the books, some you mightn't agree with (some I don't agree with), but this is such a small change that I can't see why some people are putting so much effort into being outraged by it. I'd save your energy for needless changes to the story/plot - which I'm sure will happen, on the grand scheme of things changing the skin colour of such a minor character doesn't even register on my list of concerns.

[Kim87]

I for one see no real point in making a show more diverse, just to make it for diverse. But I supposed that they had to throw some black people in the mix. But I do wish they would do it more proper, that if they make one person black, they create a culture around it. Because this is a world in the middle ages, not the modern world. You did not have random black people living in cities in France or Germany during the middle ages in Europe.

And besides, they have black side characters later on. So there could have been some parts later on.

[Celiana]

I for one see no real point in making a show more diverse, just to make it for diverse. But I supposed that had to throw some black people in the mix. But I do wish they would do it more proper, that if they make one person black, they create a culture around it. Because this is a world in the middle ages, not the modern world. You did not have random black people living in cities in France or Germany during the middle ages in Europe.

And besides, they have black side characters later on. So there could have been some parts later on.

Fair enough, out in the villages or countryside, you would find the majority of people would live their lives never seeing anyone who looked different from themselves. But in the cities, and the areas built up around ports, which Lys most certainly is, then of course you're going to find people from other countries, cultures, etc. I see what you're saying, Germany's fairly landlocked, and most of France isn't by the coast, but look at the size of Lys. It's a port city on a tiny island. There are definitely going to be 'random black people' as you say, living there.

Look at London. I don't know how much bigger it is in relation to Lys, but back in the day it was full of travellers and people from other lands. Because it was a port city. It's not like they made a black man lord of the Reach for god's sake.

As you say, there are black side characters later on. Side characters, most of whom are likely to be cut out because they have little or no bearing on the plot. And even if they do, that's no guarantee they'll make it into the script. Look at the Blackfish, after all. So just waiting to see if they might add in the POC characters later on, isn't quite going to do it for me, sorry.

And they're not just making the show more diverse just for the sake of it, they're making it more diverse because POCs, LGBTQ people, hell, anyone not a white heterosexual man, are under-represented on television, and trying to combat that through a high-profile series is no bad thing.

[Ran]

Look at London.

I'm not sure why we need to drag places from outside of the novels into it, when in the novel it's explicit that people are able to identify Lyseni by their appearance. I couldn't look at someone in London today and say, "Oh, fair-haired, blue eyes, must be from the city of London."

You're going to have to look at historical cities which were much more ethnically insular to represent something similar. The Greek city-states, for example -- the Athenian citizenship was extremely regulated, with citizenship only passing to those who had parents who were Athenian citizens on both sides. To be accepted into the demos, you had to prove your descent from Athenians on both sides going several generations back. And yet, yes, there were non-citizens resident in Athens, merchants who were transient, Greeks of other city-states who had established themselves there and settled down, but they weren't really Athenians as the Athenians themselves saw it -- they were a special class, metics, and special laws applied, and they would never be citizens unless the Athenian citizenry (as a body) voted that they be given the gift of citizenship (which was rarely done, and invariably it was done for Greeks hailing from other city-states or from colonies).

(And there were other city-states that were far more restrictive -- like Sparta, where foreigners were generally not allowed to reside on a permanent basis at all, which sort of feels a bit like Volantis refusing residence within the Black Walls. Or if we want to be more comparable to the "port city on a tiny island", apparently the Cretans were similarly restrictive and did not permit foreigners to reside on Crete.)

[Joe Reed]

'tis true. But the fact that since book 1 or whatever, we've heard repeatedly that half the whores in Lys have the Valyrian silvery hair, is one of the best foreshadowings that Y.G. is fake.

I dunno, I think Illyrio simply being so proud of YG and being thoroughly bummed out about not seeing him before he saw Tyrion off is a little bit better at letting us know that YG is a fake.

I listened to the audiobooks featuring both Dotrice and Avers doing their impressions of Saan and they both did a pretty Middle Eastern-y rendition of the guy. For this I don't really have an issue with the race changes.

I'm sure this will work out, it just is a shame that we got a whole year of this kind of quibbling that we're gonna have to deal with until we watch the new season and stop caring.

[Celiana]

Fair enough, I agree that London maybe wasn't the best city I could have used there, I was just trying to make the point that you'll always find foreign people in port cities. But as you say, Ran, granting citizenship to foreigners was rare but it wasn't unheard of. It's not as if they've cast about 50 black Lyseni, it's only one man.

I still don't see why everyone thinks it's going to throw off viewers when they see one black person from a city we've never even seen or heard about, but whatever.

I agree with fourtoe, I think it's a shame that there's all this negative attention being shown towards this casting choice. People just need to realise that it's an adaptation, it's not the books they're changing, it's just a TV show that they don't even have to watch if they hate the changes that much.

It just annoys me how everyone is hiding these racist opinions behind a wall of, 'oh I'm just concerned for the worldbuilding of GRRM' or 'viewers will get confused that not everyone from the same area is of the same ethnicitiy' or whatever. I didn't see this big of a fuss being made when Doreah was cast with brown hair. I mean, what if the viewers got confused about where she was from, she has brown hair for goodness sake. And everyone knows people from Lys have blonde hair! Plus she's kind of tanned, aren't the Lyseni meant to be pale? /sarcasm

It just makes the fandom look petty and bigoted, and it devalues our opinions if ever there was a questionable casting choice or a real problem with an actor.

[Reposado]

I don't see what's so interesting about diversity, in and of itself, though. Does one crowd of extras seem more interesting than any other crowd of extras? I can't see it. Should I watch a documentary about the ethnically-diverse favelas of Rio de Janeiro instead of a documentary about ethnically homogeneous Inuit? I mean, it's apples and oranges in my mind.

A heterogeneous Qarth will say something about them... but it won't be the same thing that GRRM wanted to say about them. So I'm really hoping it's homogeneous, with Xaro or Pyat being more the exception than the rule, simply because they'll then be capturing part of the essence of the writing in a very deliberate way.

Certainly, I think no one wants to feel like the show is partaking of lazy storytelling. All the effort they put into the sets, costumes, etc., you sort of hope they put it into the worldbuilding as well.

This, I don't see the problem with casting Qarth with mostly black actors, and the pureborn as entirely black. Implying that Qarth is ethnically black, but it is a busy port with foreigners in it.

[Ran]

Yeah, wouldn't have a problem with that at all, Baelor. That'd work for me. Homogeneous doesn't mean totally lacking other people, but it does mean it's an exception rather than a rule. And if the exception is a significant character, I wouldn't mind some nod towards recognizing the fact that it's an exception rather than treating it as normal.

[jxd]

I cannot grasp how casting a black actor for the sake of "diversity" is a good thing, or even why the cast needs diversity to begin with.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

Two more casting notes have come in today, and these are quite fun. First off, despite our own thinking that the Iron Islands casting had pretty much wrapped up, it appears that the old master-at-arms of Pyke, Dagmer Cleftjaw, has been cast according to Winter is Coming. British actor Ralph Ineson apparently has the role—quite a change from the character as described, at least age-wise, as Cleftjaw’s said to have a snow-white beard and seems to sound as if he’s in his late 50’s or early 60’s. We’re going to guess that the wound that gives Cleftjaw his name is not going to even be attempted by the show, as that’d be rather extreme make-up! Ineson is among the new cast members who can be found on Twitter.

And just now, EW has the scoop on the casting of Salladhor Saan, a Lyseni pirate king who hires his sails out to Stannis Baratheon, and is an old friend of Davos Seaworth. According to EW, British-born stage and actor Lucian Msamati—who I remember very fondly from HBO’s The No. 1 Ladies’ Detective Agency as JLB Matekoni—has been cast in the role.

Given our previous casting exclusive regarding Pyat Pree (which also discusses the casting of Balon Greyjoy and Podrick Payne), I think there’s a topic we need to revisit…

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Ralph is perfect for Cleftjaw.

Also, HBO's casting isn't inconsistant with my reading of Sal Saan at all. I've always pictured him in my imagination as a black guy and think Lucian is perfect for the role. I don't think that many of the eastern city-states, especially those of non-Valyrian origin are filled with particular ethnicities. The "free cities" that aren't those lorded over by Valyrian ancestors (like Volanits and Pentos) are mostly populated by adventurers and escaped slaves. We know Braavos is like this. Perhaps Sal's or his ancestors were adventurous traders from the summer Isles?

Anyway, I'm glad to see in the world of westeros and essos there are more shades of skin other than white and whiter... I feel like some of the stuff GRRM wrote in the novels was an attempt to dodge criticism about eurocentrism... IMO Sal is a good guy, or at least a chaotic neutral. The only culture that is really strange and terrible to most readers is the Ghiscari & I doubt HBO will make them white people like GRRM just for the sake of political correctness. When this stuff is on the screen, people want to see actors of all races get parts... cultural stereotypes be damned.

Where are the Ghiscari parts being filmed? any info on that?

[Kim87]

I am baffled by the large amount of people who for some reason pictured this and that character as black despite being described fairly early on as belong to a certain ethnicity that was described in a specific manner. I always pictured him as a big blond guy.

And I do not think most people care one way or the other. You could make a show all white or all black. And it would not affect the show at all. What annoys me is this obsession certain people have about getting more color in the show, like it is some necessity.