The general young age of the characters

[MM22]

Also just as a side note - Robb and Sansa are more competent and aware and okay with what is expected of them because as the eldest boy and girl, their roles are more defined and rigid. Robb knows that his eventual job is to lead, and carry out his fathers duties, just as Sansa (easily the most eligible bride of her generation along with Margaery) knows (or thinks ) that a glittering marriage for her house is her destiny.

Look at Bran and Arya, and their roles are less defined. Neither of them have been brought up to shoulder as big a responsibility as Robb or Sansa, therefore they are more free, and believable to US at their ages.

[Castel]

Lyanna's age bothered me a bit

.

When she has that conversation with Ned about Robert's nature, she seems a bit too wise, resigned and worldly for (at most) a 13-14 year old girl who wouldn't have had much experience of men or of the world outside Winterfell, whereas Ned (4 or 5 years older) comes across as as naive.

You've never heard a child parrot back something they heard from their elders or read in books?

[MM22]

You've never heard a child parrot back something they heard from their elders or read in books?

This is true, Lyanna at 14 doesn't necessarily lack wisdom but she could easily be somewhat discouraged by hearing of Roberts nature or philandering, it's not difficult to imagine her disliking or being apprehensive the prospect of him of her own accord but even if she is just parroting something that someone else has told her or that she's seen or read, at least she has the sense to realise that Robert may have faults.

If only Sansa had that sense at 13. . .

[winterbird]

I like this topic, I do think that most of the child characters (everyone under 20) would have benefited by adding three years to their age. But I do want to point out that these young children are highly unsuccessful. Robb quickly become the King who lost the North, Dany is stuck defending a city that was never her aim from people who want her dead, Sansa is always misused by people she hopes to trust, Arya is quick and clever but she ends up with a very black/white view of the world which I would assume is due to having experienced such devastation at such a young age, Bran is constantly a moody child, and Rickon shows the aggression of a typical toddler/preschooler who acts first and then thinks... this isn't so much his trait as it is a trait of his age.

I am fairly certain that if adding 3/4 years to the age made the characters more acceptable my medieval standards, then we would expect them to be more successful and not keep mucking things up. Had Sansa been three years older she would have been within a short time of getting to King's Landing and even if she hadn't there would have been no reason for Tyrion to hold off on doing so. Had Arya hit puberty, she might have ended up more like Lyanna and less like a faceless assassin. Bran might have understood what he was hearing and have the sense to get away. These characters are constantly being taken advantage of because of their age. I think it has become a large part of who they are.

These are largely children playing at war while manipulative adults play their "game of thrones" by moving these child-pieces about. And the children make childish mistakes. If they had already reached the age of majority then we would expect them to be acting like responsible adults and not like children. I wouldn't mind seeing some time skips so that the children get older and less child like. I would have loved for them to grow up some already.

But also to add to the age questions... the younger characters seem receptive to change and I can see them growing to change the rules and make peace whereas the older characters are set in their ways and unable to accept when things change. (For example the struggle between Jon and his subordinates on the Wall). These young characters need to experience some things when they are still growing that makes them accept the change. (That being said I DO think it is now time for them to grow up... past time in some cases).

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I like this topic, I do think that most of the child characters (everyone under 20) would have benefited by adding three years to their age. But I do want to point out that these young children are highly unsuccessful. Robb quickly become the King who lost the North, Dany is stuck defending a city that was never her aim from people who want her dead, Sansa is always misused by people she hopes to trust, Arya is quick and clever but she ends up with a very black/white view of the world which I would assume is due to having experienced such devastation at such a young age, Bran is constantly a moody child, and Rickon shows the aggression of a typical toddler/preschooler who acts first and then thinks... this isn't so much his trait as it is a trait of his age.

I am fairly certain that if adding 3/4 years to the age made the characters more acceptable my medieval standards, then we would expect them to be more successful and not keep mucking things up. Had Sansa been three years older she would have been within a short time of getting to King's Landing and even if she hadn't there would have been no reason for Tyrion to hold off on doing so. Had Arya hit puberty, she might have ended up more like Lyanna and less like a faceless assassin. Bran might have understood what he was hearing and have the sense to get away. These characters are constantly being taken advantage of because of their age. I think it has become a large part of who they are.

These are largely children playing at war while manipulative adults play their "game of thrones" by moving these child-pieces about. And the children make childish mistakes. If they had already reached the age of majority then we would expect them to be acting like responsible adults and not like children. I wouldn't mind seeing some time skips so that the children get older and less child like. I would have loved for them to grow up some already.

But also to add to the age questions... the younger characters seem receptive to change and I can see them growing to change the rules and make peace whereas the older characters are set in their ways and unable to accept when things change. (For example the struggle between Jon and his subordinates on the Wall). These young characters need to experience some things when they are still growing that makes them accept the change. (That being said I DO think it is now time for them to grow up... past time in some cases).

[DurararaFTW]

I like this topic, I do think that most of the child characters (everyone under 20) would have benefited by adding three years to their age. But I do want to point out that these young children are highly unsuccessful. Robb quickly become the King who lost the North, Dany is stuck defending a city that was never her aim from people who want her dead, Sansa is always misused by people she hopes to trust, Arya is quick and clever but she ends up with a very black/white view of the world which I would assume is due to having experienced such devastation at such a young age, Bran is constantly a moody child, and Rickon shows the aggression of a typical toddler/preschooler who acts first and then thinks... this isn't so much his trait as it is a trait of his age.

Robb only became the King who Lost the North AFTER being crowned for constantly humiliating Tywin Lannister in the field, a matter of months after he was even to allowed carry steel. Jon too, correctly lecturing Stannis and his men on the basics of combat strategy and the intricate politics of the Norths out of nowhere.

[Castel]

Robb only became the King who Lost the North AFTER being crowned for constantly humiliating Tywin Lannister in the field, a matter of months after he was even to allowed carry steel. Jon too, correctly lecturing Stannis and his men on the basics of combat strategy and the intricate politics of the Norths out of nowhere.

Robb only became the King who Lost the North AFTER being crowned for constantly humiliating Tywin Lannister in the field, a matter of months after he was even to allowed carry steel. Jon too, correctly lecturing Stannis and his men on the basics of combat strategy and the intricate politics of the Norths out of nowhere.

Yet Robb failed in a way that a child would fail. Jon is the only one to escape the problems his age cause, and he's had different circumstances.

[jons nissa]

after reading through this thread, i realize that the people who have problems with the ages claim they would be fine with them aged up 3 or 4 years, which (not coincidentally) would put the characters at ages where leadership, sex, childbirth, etc. would be acceptable behavior by people today.

grrm had the right of it. people in the middle ages went from being children (who worked as hard as many modern day adults!) to being adults. there was little time for play and a person's or family's very life depended on their learning how to do "their job" well enough to eke out a living. that sounds hard by today's standards but that is how it was. childhood was very brief and if it existed at all, it likely ended when a child was 6 or 7. if i had a dollar for every instance sansa or robb or jon is called a child in one of the threads here, i'd be rich. they aren't teens or children in this story and looking at asoiaf with this modern lens is going to make enjoyment of the tale very difficult.

that said, even though young people were trained in the art of warfare and killing or keeping a household and rearing children well before they reached an age of majority, there are many instances of "super young people" that are a little hard to swallow given the lack of serious magical elements to help even out the score a little against the older, smarter and more stronger people.

[winterbird]

Robb only became the King who Lost the North AFTER being crowned for constantly humiliating Tywin Lannister in the field, a matter of months after he was even to allowed carry steel. Jon too, correctly lecturing Stannis and his men on the basics of combat strategy and the intricate politics of the Norths out of nowhere.

Yet Robb failed in a way that a child would fail. Jon is the only one to escape the problems his age cause, and he's had different circumstances.

Yes exactly. Robb won a lot of battles, but even the ones he won were considered "easy" by his enemies. He didn't face Tywin in the field only lesser Lannister forces (some say even half-trained). He might have fought Tywin, but his uncle messed that up. He took Jamie with the element of surprise and quite a bit of luck. The accomplishment easily leads to an inflated head/ego where Robb seems to think he has to win because he is right and the Lannisters are wrong. He acts rashly and loses everything quickly. It doesn't matter when he was crowned or that his people thought him a great leader, what matters is the childish actions he took. I will admit he acted more childish after he got his crown (and he was not the only monarch to do so in the series). The measure of being a "man" is not in receiving a crown but in keeping it.

Jon I believe is the "oldest" of the Stark children in the sense that as a bastard, he had to grow up fast. And his actions and reasoning really seem to speak volumes. I find him to be the one of Ned's children who is most like Ned... he is truly Ned's son (questions of lineage aside Jon eas raised by Ned and not Catelyn. Jon had one parent and that was Ned whether you believe Ned is biological his father or no). I can see Ned in the actions he chooses at the wall. And he does give Stannis good advice (the same advice his father might give). Jon's age problems circle not around maturity, but the fact that others around him look down on him for his young age and new ideals. The characters who get in his way are older men who cannot change their way of thinking. The younger men of the nights watch seem readier to accept Jon's leadership while the older men were never really on his side. But Jon really did listen to Maester Aemon (the only older man who was not blinded by his own ideals) and "killed the boy." Jon Snow regardless of his age is a man in truth. You can look at the choices he made to honor his vows over running to Robb, to kill his comrade and the man he looked up to because it was an order, to fulfill his order of scoping out Mance's intentions despite how dirty it made him feel to wear that cloak, to leave Ygritt to go back to the watch, to turn down Stannis's offer of Winterfell and stand up to Stannis repeatedly, to face winter and make changes to try to man the watch and not just give the battle over to Stannis. He never chooses the easiest decision, he chooses the hard decision and the one he will have to work for, the choices that may not be popular. These are the marks of a true adult. Age would not have mattered one bit for him, he made these decisions without reaching the age of maturity.

But that does not make anyone like him more or make his decisions more popular. The men at the watch view him as a bastard, a child, and his ideas/changes as going against them. If he were older (not 3-4 years, but possibly Ned's age) he would have had more success with these changes. His age is not so much a fault that sets him up to fail, but something his enemies perceive and use against him. (and I am not saying this as a Jon Snow fan-girl or anything (I know they exist). He is far from my favorite character, but I do feel like he is the only child in this whole series who truly acts like an adult.)

[Night Gathers]

Gendry being 14 years old and has a thick black beard coming along.

How many 14 year olds have you met with thick beards?

[StannisBarFTW]

The general idea is that in the middle ages you were an able man, capable of conducting all kinds of business from age 12 ( if im not mistaken mb 14 not sure) woman's had very few rights and were mainly marriage goods ( for lords ) and were considered to be of age ( good to marry, since woman back then couldnt conduct business unless it was approved by a man, might have been special cases but that was the main law) at the time of her first period.

People in that age had a shorter lifespan than we have today, they didnt had "teenagers" that was not a concept back then, either you were a boy ( less than 12 ) or you were a man ( older than 12 ).

I´ll add this fun example: Portugal's first king and founder declared war on the kingdoms of Castela&Leon (spain) at age 13, after at age 11 kicking his mother out of power, this was back at the early 12th century.

[winterbird]

Gendry being 14 years old and has a thick black beard coming along.

How many 14 year olds have you met with thick beards?

Depends on the parenting and the age maturity began to set in. I have known more than a few 14 year olds with impressive beards. And it says "coming along" as in it might be a very nice, very thick, black beard some day.

ETA: was reading interviews last night and Martain said there was no "adolescence" then you were a child or you were an adult with the marker of reaching sexual maturity in the middle.

[Ghost Rider]

I like this topic, I do think that most of the child characters (everyone under 20) would have benefited by adding three years to their age.

Why would you think that when you point out here just why they have to be that young.

(...) we would expect them to be more successful and not keep mucking things up.

Exactly. We would think of them as morons if they were still acting the same way they do act at such a young age, at some point later in their life. Imagine Sansa at 15/16 instead of 11/12 in KL with a crush on Joff of all people. It's bad enough now that she goes running and complaining to Cersei about the planned departure. But at 15/16 such an action would be inexcusable! We would expect her to understand what is at stake there. That being said, I think she could have been 13, but not older then that to make these mistakes and still be sympathetic.

The same for the boys. Jon at 14 leaving for NW with just about the same amount of naivete Sansa displays, expecting to join some heroic force for the good of the realm and disregarding the sacrifices associated with it - understandable. But the same decision at 17/18 would make me question his sanity.

You could go on with Robb and his misfortune at the Crag. I agree about Dany, if she were 15/16 it would still be young enough, her mistakes/beliefs are not of the kind that would be inexcusable in a 16/17/18 year old.

One more thing related to the thread: Repeatedly I have read here that girls were generally married off at a very early age during the Middle Ages. While that is true for noble girls because they were political assets, it is general consensus among historians that common girls married much later for various reasons, in their early twenties rather then in their teens. I also doubt very much that these girls matured earlier then today, I suspect the opposite might be true, because bad nourishment tends to delay the onset of the female cycle. So if Sansa would have wanted to delay or stop it very badly, she should have stopped eating Lemon Cake. :D

[ShadowRaven]

Dude....Different times.

Those guys grew up early. AND YES; males can become physically super strong at the age of 12-15. You are missing a point: children now a days don't grow up with the physical necessities of that time. So in theory and in practical proven studies, a male can become VERY strong at those ages.

.....

[salt]

What people seem to forget is that GRRM already said that even the generally young ages of the characters found in the books were older than what was initially planned. In the original manuscript, Ned was 8.

[1234567]

Margaret Beaufort was very young to have a child even in the Medieval Era. All the Stark kids are too young by at least 3-5 years (depending on which one we are talking about). Most medieval girls did not have children until they were at least 15-16, and many were later than that.

[Castel]

Margaret Beaufort was very young to have a child even in the Medieval Era. All the Stark kids are too young by at least 3-5 years (depending on which one we are talking about). Most medieval girls did not have children until they were at least 15-16, and many were later than that.

Well yes, the only time we've seen people marry much earlier is when circumstances force them to. Sansa did so because of Mace Tyrell's machinations, and I think there was one other example that was so because of the war and the dangers it brought about. In general I would think that people would marry more at Margaery's age.

[Stark4life]

Children need to grow up quicker in this setting. Plus winter is coming.

[Accio Euron]

It seems fitting for the time. 8 or 11 was not as young as its considered today. Remember Sansa in AGOT saying that an age of twenty-two or twenty-three was old? I'm sure at her age any age ten years past her own would seem so, but I considered the early twenties to be young, now if you said thirty-two or thirty-three to me at twelve I might have the same response.

I don't know. It seems fitting for the time he's trying to portray.

[Ghost Rider]

It seems fitting for the time. 8 or 11 was not as young as its considered today. Remember Sansa in AGOT saying that an age of twenty-two or twenty-three was old? I'm sure at her age any age ten years past her own would seem so, but I considered the early twenties to be young, now if you said thirty-two or thirty-three to me at twelve I might have the same response.

How one views people older then oneself is surely subjective and personal maturity level as well, not only dependant on societal views. Myself at age 11 - I thought of 16 year- olds as totally old, when I was 15,16 I still thought of early twenties as rather old. :), while a class-mate had a bf of 40, so I can totally understand Sansa when she doesn't see bf material in a 20 something (and that's what it was about...) Jeyne Poole, who is Sansa's peer otoh, does consider Berric Dondarrion and Dany enjoys being with 30 year old Drogo at age 12 :ack: .

Now that is something I cannot get behind from my own POV. :)

[Casperjd2]

Well considering how the younger characters are all highborn, they have been drilled and instructed on how to be a Lord/Lady as soon as they popped out of the womb.

Martin does a great job of describing how life was in the middle ages. Its like reading a history book that is fake and has a little fantasy involved.

Life in the middle ages was full of war, violence, and scheming. So Highborns had to ensure their legacy in case anything were to happen to them the children needed to be ready.