[Spoilers] Ignored Detail, Last Dany Chapter

[tze]

This is far-fetched, tze. Dany has never shown an "obsession" with the Iron Throne, her brother Viserys was actually the one who did, however, most posters disregard this fact. If Dany had an obsession with the Iron Throne she would have been in Westeros from around two books ago. Dany seems to actually have an obsession with protecting the rights of innocents and those enslaved, not in actually ruling anything. She does not deny her relevance as a Queen and a "dragon", but it also does not define her purpose in terms of wearing a crown. She is much more invested in the lives of the people who depend on her.

She's not "obsessed" with the Iron Throne in the same way as Viserys, but then again, she calls herself Queen of the Andals, Rhoynar, and First Men, despite never even having seen Westeros. And she is extremely concerned with the slaves of Essos---having her abandon them would, in my opinion, require a pretty huge shift in philosophy. And if she doesn't abandon them, she can't conquer Westeros.

And she is actually considered a very great woman already, and her legend will likely grow when she moves on Volantis, and maybe Asshai etc.

To the slaves that she's freed, not to the slavers. If Dany has to choose between Essos and Westeros (and I don't see any way she can realistically do both), and if she chooses Westeros, her slave rebellions stand a very good chance of being crushed, just like Astapor eventually fell when Dany moved on. History is written by the winners. If Dany doesn't complete what she started, her "legend" will end up as a historical footnote.

Dany's story will not be a tragedy for a very simple reason: she has been shown to be fighting tragedies all her life. Even if she dies it will be as a hero, not as someone who ended up on a destructive path but was nobly trying to do the good thing. She started her life out as nothing really. She was a princess in exile, destitute and forgotten after a while... her overall story is one of triumph, not failure.

A wonderful and moving story. But this is A Song of Ice and Fire. :) GRRM loves his Robb Starks and Quentyn Martells. I think making Dany's story ultimately be a tragedy is perfectly plausible.

[boojam]

Who knows? I might be the one overlooking the critical detail here.

I think the detail is Drogon. I think that Khal Jhaq and his Dothraki are going to be gob smacked by Dany and a large dragon.

I don't know what will happen this is a kind of 'out of left field' for the Dothraki kind of thing.

[tze]

When did I say this? I said that prophecies are one thing and foreshadowing is another. Writers can twist and play with prophecies, but they stick to what is foreshadowed. This is why it's a literary device that we can use to glean insights into the text.

But while we don't know what GRRM's prophecies truly mean until the series ends, we also won't know what he's truly foreshadowing until the same time. You can't just say he's foreshadowed something and assume your interpretation of that foreshadowing will be correct. We've now had the character of Quentyn Martell, a good and decent young man who only wanted to do what was best, whose journey we followed throughout ADWD, and whose story ended in unexpected tragedy. Couldn't Quentyn Martell be foreshadowing Dany's own doom? That good intentions aren't enough if you don't know how to properly accomplish your goals? I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying that we won't know 100% until GRRM gives us more books.

The part that I bolded in the quote is exactly what Dany knows and has been doing and nobody has had to teach her a thing.

Yes, Dany knows that she should be doing what's best for her people. The problem is, she doesn't always know what action will be best for her people in the long run. That doesn't mean she's a bad person. That means she's someone who was never taught how to rule. Right now, she's made Meereen her test case and is learning by doing. But when she makes mistakes, it's her people who end up suffering. And you can't learn to rule in a month---it's going to take Dany years of trial-and-error to get where she wants to be. So either she doesn't invade Westeros for a really long time, or she goes before she's ready and the smallfolk of Westeros pay the price for her mistakes. Either way, that sounds ripe for a tragedy.

[Sevumar]

Yes I remember that question :) No, I haven't read it, care to enlighten me on what it's about?

It's part of a series set in a world based on Norse mythology, but the book starts with a succession crisis in an important kingdom charged with helping keep the world in balance. There's not a system of primogeniture and the succession is supposed to be determined by an artifact called the Staff of Law. Each member of the royal family undergoes a test while holding the staff, facing a number of hypothetical situations.

We see one of these tests through the eyes of a girl who shares many qualities with Dany: she's compassionate, kindhearted, and well-meaning, and she seems to come up with reasonable responses to the test's scenarios. She's rejected as a candidate for the throne (along with the rest of the royal family) and ultimately becomes part of the search for the last remaining (distant) relative of the royal family. To me, it seems like a good illustration that it takes more than good character qualities to make a good ruler.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think we will know if Aegon is real when he encounters the dragons, and not before. They seemed to recognize Ben Plumm's two drops of Targ blood, so surely they would recognize Aegon as a Targ as much as they do Dany.. if they don't, then I fear Aegon is toast.. and Varys at that point will be revealed as a charlatan to be destroyed.

I don't think having dragon blood is enough. Quentyn has dragon blood and Rhaegal killed him.

&

Rhaenyra Targaryen-However, Ser Criston Cole, also known as the Kingmaker, supported her half-brother Aegon II and the civil war, known as the Dance of Dragons, was fought.^[1][2] She rode the dragon Syrax.^[3] Rhaenyra's bid failed and her half brother Aegon had her eaten by his dragon.^[4]

[Sevumar]

I don't think having dragon blood is enough. Quentyn has dragon blood and Rhaegal killed him.

Yeah, I think there's something else that matters here too. If the three heads of the dragon are the three riders and Martin has raised the possibility that the heads need not be Targs, it suggests that "dragon" blood might not be as key as some characters believe it is. But that's a lot of what-ifs in a world where everyone has a limited understanding of how dragons work and the laboratory is quite deadly as Quentyn Martell can attest.

[GoodGuyA]

I think the detail is Drogon. I think that Khal Jhaq and his Dothraki are going to be gob smacked by Dany and a large dragon.

I don't know what will happen this is a kind of 'out of left field' for the Dothraki kind of thing.

As I proposed before, what would be the point of reintroducing Jhaqo if he was going to be removed in the first pages of Dany's opening? Yes, she wants him dead, but she won't kill him in a damned instant. I feel a lot of people are rallying behind the idea that she is first taken to Vaes Dothrak and then all the theories are up in the air. Just as many are suspecting un-Gregor to be important because of his build up, so too is Jhaqo being actually named instead of a random Khalasar.

[brashcandy]

But while we don't know what GRRM's prophecies truly mean until the series ends, we also won't know what he's truly foreshadowing until the same time. You can't just say he's foreshadowed something and assume your interpretation of that foreshadowing will be correct. We've now had the character of Quentyn Martell, a good and decent young man who only wanted to do what was best, whose journey we followed throughout ADWD, and whose story ended in unexpected tragedy. Couldn't Quentyn Martell be foreshadowing Dany's own doom? That good intentions aren't enough if you don't know how to properly accomplish your goals? I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying that we won't know 100% until GRRM gives us more books.

Of course won't know the outcome of the forshadowing until the end, but we can predict certain obvious outcomes. Now, as to Quentyn... no he can't foreshadow anything about Dany in that way. All Quentyn illustrated is that he wasn't a dragon in the slightest bit or even someone with much sense. And I don't think Quentyn had good intentions either, they were actually very selfish.

Yes, Dany knows that she should be doing what's best for her people. The problem is, she doesn't always know what action will be best for her people in the long run. That doesn't mean she's a bad person. That means she's someone who was never taught how to rule. Right now, she's made Meereen her test case and is learning by doing. But when she makes mistakes, it's her people who end up suffering. And you can't learn to rule in a month---it's going to take Dany years of trial-and-error to get where she wants to be. So either she doesn't invade Westeros for a really long time, or she goes before she's ready and the smallfolk of Westeros pay the price for her mistakes. Either way, that sounds ripe for a tragedy.

Once again why these unrealistic expectations and predictions of doom? The only way one can really learn to rule is by ruling. No matter how much abstract knowledge one gains, the experience is always remarkably different. And Dany has been ruling. She hasn't been in Meereen for a month. How will the smallfolk pay the price for her mistakes when she's actually the only one with real experience and we know she cares for people, especially the smallfolk? This just doesn't add up. Dany was hampered in Meereen by a vicious insurgency and her reluctance to rely on her dragons to quell the violence. She's learnt a lot from that time, and should be able to meet the challenges of Westeros. What has Aegon learnt by the way that hasn't come from a book?

[brashcandy]

It's part of a series set in a world based on Norse mythology, but the book starts with a succession crisis in an important kingdom charged with helping keep the world in balance. There's not a system of primogeniture and the succession is supposed to be determined by an artifact called the Staff of Law. Each member of the royal family undergoes a test while holding the staff, facing a number of hypothetical situations.

We see one of these tests through the eyes of a girl who shares many qualities with Dany: she's compassionate, kindhearted, and well-meaning, and she seems to come up with reasonable responses to the test's scenarios. She's rejected as a candidate for the throne (along with the rest of the royal family) and ultimately becomes part of the search for the last remaining (distant) relative of the royal family. To me, it seems like a good illustration that it takes more than good character qualities to make a good ruler.

Ok, the book sounds quite interesting, I'll have to check it out.

Now, as to the idea that it takes more than good character qualities to make a good ruler, I think you're missing the point. "Good" character qualities don't equate to being weak or a bleeding heart. One can still be strong, ruthless (when needed), cunning and resourceful. I think Dany embodies all these qualities as a leader, just that Meereen focused on her conflicted feelings a lot of the time.

[tze]

Of course won't know the outcome of the forshadowing until the end, but we can predict certain obvious outcomes.

No, we can't. What's obvious to one person is incredibly unlikely to someone else. These forums should certainly have taught us that. :) You think it's obvious that Quentyn Martell can't be foreshadowing doom for Dany. I think he very well might. What's obvious to me is not obvious to you. What's obvious to you is not obvious to me.

Once again why these unrealistic expectations and predictions of doom? The only way one can really learn to rule is by ruling. No matter how much abstract knowledge one gains, the experience is always remarkably different. And Dany has been ruling. She hasn't been in Meereen for a month. How will the smallfolk pay the price for her mistakes when she's actually the only one with real experience and we know she cares for people, especially the smallfolk? This just doesn't add up. Dany was hampered in Meereen by a vicious insurgency and her reluctance to rely on her dragons to quell the violence. She's learnt a lot from that time, and should be able to meet the challenges of Westeros. What has Aegon learnt by the way that hasn't come from a book?

You think it's unrealistic to expect or predict doom? In A Song of Ice and Fire?

The smallfolk of Astapor paid for Dany's mistakes (i.e., leaving unsuitable people in charge, not marching when Cleon took over, and later not moving when Astapor was being attacked by the Yunkish). In Meereen, Dany's Unsullied (not Dany herself) are the ones being attacked by the Sons of the Harpy. Dany's good intentions didn't change the fact that she didn't know how best to accomplish her goals.

And what has Dany learned? She still doesn't know who the Harpy is. She doesn't know how to find out who was instigating the insurgency against her. She still doesn't know how to control Rhaegal and Viserion, and she can't get Drogon to take her back to Meereen.

And I don't think Aegon will end up doing any better (especially since Connington, someone who actually has done some ruling, is dying). If anyone's going to be a good ruler in Westeros, my money's on the newly-resurrected-and-freed-from-his-vows Jon. Dude negotiates a mean treaty.

[Sevumar]

Now, as to the idea that it takes more than good character qualities to make a good ruler, I think you're missing the point. "Good" character qualities don't equate to being weak or a bleeding heart. One can still be strong, ruthless (when needed), cunning and resourceful. I think Dany embodies all these qualities as a leader, just that Meereen focused on her conflicted feelings a lot of the time.

I'm not saying that compassion and caring for the weak are the only good traits. I was trying to say that all traits, specifically the ones Dany has and other rulers seem to lack, represent a potential. One of Dany's biggest obstacles thus far is translating that potential into any meaningful change and stability as a leader. She's pretty good at thinking on her feet in intense situations, such as negotiating the disintegrating khalasar and hatching the dragons or negotiating for the Unsullied in Astapor, but she's a lot less successful when it comes to the aftermath of her actions.

Based on her performance in Meereen, I wouldn't want Dany to run anything, much less a kingdom the size of a continent. If she stays the way she is, she makes a better lieutenant or tool for someone else than a candidate for overall leadership.

Once again why these unrealistic expectations and predictions of doom? The only way one can really learn to rule is by ruling. No matter how much abstract knowledge one gains, the experience is always remarkably different. And Dany has been ruling. She hasn't been in Meereen for a month. How will the smallfolk pay the price for her mistakes when she's actually the only one with real experience and we know she cares for people, especially the smallfolk?

I wouldn't say that Dany is the only candidate with experience. Stannis has a decent amount of experience, though he's not as charismatic as either of his brothers were, and he has shown that he's willing to listen to the hard truths his advisers bring to his attention. That's something we've yet to see from Dany in any real measure. Experience does matter, and Dany has a tiny bit, but she's not anywhere near ready to rule as an absolute monarch.

As others have pointed out, in Martin's world, efforts rarely meet with unmitigated success. Dany might well end up succeeding in some of her goals, but it's going to be a long road full of suffering, regret, and hardship. It's reasonable to predict some doom based on what we've read in the series to date.

[brashcandy]

You think it's unrealistic to expect or predict doom? In A Song of Ice and Fire?

The smallfolk of Astapor paid for Dany's mistakes (i.e., leaving unsuitable people in charge, not marching when Cleon took over, and later not moving when Astapor was being attacked by the Yunkish). In Meereen, Dany's Unsullied (not Dany herself) are the ones being attacked by the Sons of the Harpy. Dany's good intentions didn't change the fact that she didn't know how best to accomplish her goals.

And what has Dany learned? She still doesn't know who the Harpy is. She doesn't know how to find out who was instigating the insurgency against her. She still doesn't know how to control Rhaegal and Viserion, and she can't get Drogon to take her back to Meereen.

And I don't think Aegon will end up doing any better (especially since Connington, someone who actually has done some ruling, is dying). If anyone's going to be a good ruler in Westeros, my money's on the newly-resurrected-and-freed-from-his-vows Jon. Dude negotiates a mean treaty.

Tze, I never asserted that she's had smooth sailing so far. In terms of Astaphor, she had very good reasons for not moving on that front, and the people in charge were the ones who bungled the whole affair. Can we blame her for this? Who does the buck stop with when Dany isn't around to clean up the mess.

Dany has learnt a lot I'd argue. Not much in the way of hard facts, but her character arc doesn't require them. Barristan and the others can focus on finding out who the Harpy is etc etc, but I think GRRM really wanted to show Dany's coming to a full acceptance of herself and understanding of her journey forward. We just don't know what that journey forward is yet, but I can't see it as being full of the same pitfalls she experienced in Meereen. Besides the new found clarity she achieved in that final chapter, it just wouldn't make sense. We have to see a resurgent dragon in TWOW because this is the part she kept hidden and chained from the world.

I'd agree with you on the Jon part though. He's the best :)

I'm not saying that compassion and caring for the weak are the only good traits. I was trying to say that all traits, specifically the ones Dany has and other rulers seem to lack, represent a potential. One of Dany's biggest obstacles thus far is translating that potential into any meaningful change and stability as a leader. She's pretty good at thinking on her feet in intense situations, such as negotiating the disintegrating khalasar and hatching the dragons or negotiating for the Unsullied in Astapor, but she's a lot less successful when it comes to the aftermath of her actions.

Based on her performance in Meereen, I wouldn't want Dany to run anything, much less a kingdom the size of a continent. If she stays the way she is, she makes a better lieutenant or tool for someone else than a candidate for overall leadership.

I wouldn't say that Dany is the only candidate with experience. Stannis has a decent amount of experience, though he's not as charismatic as either of his brothers were, and he has shown that he's willing to listen to the hard truths his advisers bring to his attention. That's something we've yet to see from Dany in any real measure. Experience does matter, and Dany has a tiny bit, but she's not anywhere near ready to rule as an absolute monarch.

As others have pointed out, in Martin's world, efforts rarely meet with unmitigated success. Dany might well end up succeeding in some of her goals, but it's going to be a long road full of suffering, regret, and hardship. It's reasonable to predict some doom based on what we've read in the series to date.

She didn't do badly in Meereen, Sevumar. She made a marriage pact that she thought was in the best interests of the city, she tried to find out who the Harpies were but failing this, she at least tried negotiation. We cannot simply whitewash her efforts there as ineffective. She was battling an enemy that was operating completely underground, and she was trying at the same time to feed the people and keep violence to a minimum. Also, she has to worry about Westeros, people constantly telling her to get back there, that she doesn't belong in Meereen etc etc. She's conflicted and confused, but she's also competent and courageous. She could have headed for the hills when the guy from Qarth declared war, but instead she stays and doesn't desert those in need.

As for Stannis, well where do I start? He simply cannot be a leader, and it's not just charisma. He lost it for me when he started out allowing Mel so much control, and even though he's shown marginal growth, he still lacks the true vision and people skills that distinguish Jon and Dany. He lacks any diplomatic skills and he's too bullheaded. As for experience, yes I suppose he has a bit from being around KL and all, but it hasn't made him a more enlightened or effective ruler in my view.

[The Lost Lord]

She had a dream of fighting an army armored in ice at the Trident. But remember, Jon dreams of wearing ice armor.

Wow, great observation. I have often wondered about the absence of the Others in the Undying House visions. This unrelated dream of Dany's previously seemed to be the most blatant sign we've had that she'll fight the Others, and you've suggested a very interesting alternate possibility.

To the bolded part of your statement, you have completely ignored Dany's whole reasoning for staying in Essos. She is the last person interested in running to claim the Iron Throne (unlike Stannis and Aegon). She already knows about service and leadership and this is why she refuses to abandon the people of Meereen even though everyone tells her her fight is in Westeros.

But in her final chapter Dany decides that Meereen is not her home, it's the harpy's city and she'll never be a harpy, that her "war" is in Westeros instead. I'm on board with the general thrust of tze's interpretation here. Dany's decision that she's rather go to Westeros than stick around and do the hard work of reforming Essos is sad. It will likely be bad for Essos and bad for Westeros.

As I proposed before, what would be the point of reintroducing Jhaqo if he was going to be removed in the first pages of Dany's opening? Yes, she wants him dead, but she won't kill him in a damned instant. I feel a lot of people are rallying behind the idea that she is first taken to Vaes Dothrak and then all the theories are up in the air. Just as many are suspecting un-Gregor to be important because of his build up, so too is Jhaqo being actually named instead of a random Khalasar.

Jhaqo's character has not been built up in any significant way. He's only relevant because Dany has a grudge against him. It seems reasonable to speculate that she will settle her grudge in a permanent way very early in TWOW, especially since the Dothraki follow strength. Then again, Martin said that Mago would be a "recurring character" in Book 6, so maybe she will put past differences aside.

[DragonsHungry]

She didn't do badly in Meereen, Sevumar. She made a marriage pact that she thought was in the best interests of the city, she tried to find out who the Harpies were but failing this, she at least tried negotiation. We cannot simply whitewash her efforts there as ineffective. She was battling an enemy that was operating completely underground, and she was trying at the same time to feed the people and keep violence to a minimum. Also, she has to worry about Westeros, people constantly telling her to get back there, that she doesn't belong in Meereen etc etc. She's conflicted and confused, but she's also competent and courageous. She could have headed for the hills when the guy from Qarth declared war, but instead she stays and doesn't desert those in need.

Everything she did in Meereen was a mistake. She never belonged in Meereen in the first place, and set herself back with what she is supposed to be doing, namely going to Westeros to claim the throne. I would say her time in Meereen was a failure and only served to point out to her, she doesn't belong there at all.

Her marriage was a complete mistake, and her focus on Meereen cost her time with her dragons. Now Dany is separated from two of them, maybe will lose them as it seems she is destined to go on a Dothrakyi adventure for a bit. Hard to say what will happen with the other two still at Meereen, Tyrion there, and Victarion on the way with the horn. Nothing Dany did would ever make the nobles accept her, short of giving in to everything they wanted, which Dany pretty much did. Dany's rule was pretty much a failure, and now she is off and her city is at war and about to be infested with plague.

I would hardly call that a successful rule.

I also think Dany also didn't seem to worry about Westeros too much, she changed the subject with Barristan anytime it came up. Sure, she was polite to Quentyn, but her desire to stay in Meereen cost her a ready-made ally in Dorne.

The Meereenese Knot seemed to only constrict, not unravel.

[Sevumar]

She didn't do badly in Meereen, Sevumar. She made a marriage pact that she thought was in the best interests of the city, she tried to find out who the Harpies were but failing this, she at least tried negotiation. We cannot simply whitewash her efforts there as ineffective. She was battling an enemy that was operating completely underground, and she was trying at the same time to feed the people and keep violence to a minimum. Also, she has to worry about Westeros, people constantly telling her to get back there, that she doesn't belong in Meereen etc etc. She's conflicted and confused, but she's also competent and courageous. She could have headed for the hills when the guy from Qarth declared war, but instead she stays and doesn't desert those in need.

Yes, she stayed, to her credit, but I'm not as positive as you are about her efforts. Her decisions at court show a real lack of understanding about how justice works. I think she could've done a lot better if she would've learned to delegate some matters to her council so that she would have more time to focus on the most important things (the war with Yunkai and the dragons among them). She becomes paralyzed very easily and loses a lot of opportunities to act when better choices are available, leaving her at the eleventh hour with only a handful of poor options.

As for Stannis, well where do I start? He simply cannot be a leader, and it's not just charisma. He lost it for me when he started out allowing Mel so much control, and even though he's shown marginal growth, he still lacks the true vision and people skills that distinguish Jon and Dany. He lacks any diplomatic skills and he's too bullheaded. As for experience, yes I suppose he has a bit from being around KL and all, but it hasn't made him a more enlightened or effective ruler in my view.

He's the only candidate for the throne who has shown any real leadership so far. His start wasn't so spectacular, but he's improved a lot since the beginning of the series. His personality makes him hard to like on a personal level, but he has gotten results and he has been pretty consistent in his application of law and justice. Stannis might not be a natural diplomat by himself, but he does have people in his service who can fill the role and he does listen to his advisers. His advisers are the most unorthodox group among the claimants, but so far they have served him pretty well. He's one of the few people making forward progress in ADWD if he's not dead beneath the walls of Winterfell as TWoW opens.

[Saerca Targaryen-Stark]

I don't think having dragon blood is enough. Quentyn has dragon blood and Rhaegal killed him.

My only point was that if Aegon is a true Targ, there should be some recognition by the dragons proving that he is. Certainly, that doesn't mean he will ride one, or that they won't kill him..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben Plumm encountered the dragons before they were chained up in that airless dungeon, and they were apparently attracted to him because he does have a few drops of Targ blood in his veins.

Quentyn Martell was a fool. He walked into that mad nest with a bunch of sellswords thinking he would ride out on a dragon.. and if I were Rhaegal or Viserion, my first goal would be to break free of the fucking place. Not to mention the fact that the dragons expected Dany to be there, and when she wasn't, well, they decided to turn everything to toast - as dragons are wont to do. Poor stupid Quentyn.

All I'm saying is that if Aegon is an imposter, and at this point I don't think he is, then the dragons will be the litmus test.

[DragonsHungry]

Yes, she stayed, to her credit, but I'm not as positive as you are about her efforts. Her decisions at court show a real lack of understanding about how justice works. I think she could've done a lot better if she would've learned to delegate some matters to her council so that she would have more time to focus on the most important things (the war with Yunkai and the dragons among them). She becomes paralyzed very easily and loses a lot of opportunities to act when better choices are available, leaving her at the eleventh hour with only a handful of poor options.

He's the only candidate for the throne who has shown any real leadership so far. His start wasn't so spectacular, but he's improved a lot since the beginning of the series. His personality makes him hard to like on a personal level, but he has gotten results and he has been pretty consistent in his application of law and justice. Stannis might not be a natural diplomat by himself, but he does have people in his service who can fill the role and he does listen to his advisers. His advisers are the most unorthodox group among the claimants, but so far they have served him pretty well. He's one of the few people making forward progress in ADWD if he's not dead beneath the walls of Winterfell as TWoW opens.

Good post. I have grown to like Stannis more and more as the series has progressed. He is the one person who is acting like a King, he gives a crap about the Seven Kingdoms by saving it from its true enemy and itself. Sure he has failings and has done despicable things, but its the world they live in.

[ARYa_Nym]

My only point was that if Aegon is a true Targ, there should be some recognition by the dragons proving that he is. Certainly, that doesn't mean he will ride one, or that they won't kill him..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben Plumm encountered the dragons before they were chained up in that airless dungeon, and they were apparently attracted to him because he does have a few drops of Targ blood in his veins.

Quentyn Martell was a fool. He walked into that mad nest with a bunch of sellswords thinking he would ride out on a dragon.. and if I were Rhaegal or Viserion, my first goal would be to break free of the fucking place. Not to mention the fact that the dragons expected Dany to be there, and when she wasn't, well, they decided to turn everything to toast - as dragons are wont to do. Poor stupid Quentyn.

All I'm saying is that if Aegon is an imposter, and at this point I don't think he is, then the dragons will be the litmus test.

I get what you mean.

A Blackfyre would be recognized just as a Baratheon would though.

If Stannis or YG get the impression that their background would cause the dragons to be more receptive then they might be in for a nasty surprise like Quentyn was. For their sake, they should be smarter than he was and not assume that their blood can tame a wild beast. Stannis doesn't seem to be stupid enough but who knows.

I'm not sure if it was Aegon I and his sisters or not but I remember reading that they never dared to touch the others' dragons.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I actually really liked DwD... much better than FfC, especially.

But I think Drogon will fly away and Jhoqo will take Dany back to the Dosh Kaleen in Vaes Dothrak, to live amongst the crones of fallen khals. Drogon will then show up when she's there, rescue her, and turn the place to ash...

[brashcandy]

He's the only candidate for the throne who has shown any real leadership so far. His start wasn't so spectacular, but he's improved a lot since the beginning of the series. His personality makes him hard to like on a personal level, but he has gotten results and he has been pretty consistent in his application of law and justice. Stannis might not be a natural diplomat by himself, but he does have people in his service who can fill the role and he does listen to his advisers. His advisers are the most unorthodox group among the claimants, but so far they have served him pretty well. He's one of the few people making forward progress in ADWD if he's not dead beneath the walls of Winterfell as TWoW opens.

Well we agree to disagree on Stannis. I think that everything he got came from some thieving, underhanded act, and that his only claim to fame is that he's Robert's brother. Stannis may surprise me in TWOW but I see nothing upstanding or outstanding about his character. He's willing to sit his bum in the Irone Throne at any cost and yet he manages to fool everyone that he's all about "duty". He's only had two decent advisors, Master Cressen and Davos, and he stood by and watched the former get killed by his mistress/magician/sorceress. He comes to the Wall because he's desperate and has no other place to go. If it weren't for Davos the man would be a sheer disaster.He spends half his time sulking at the Wall and the other half trying to pressure Jon Snow into giving him more leverage despite knowing full well and dandy that the Watch is to take no part. He would have walked directly into a trap if Jon hadn't told him to seek out the mountain clans. After the attack on Deepwood Motte his army is in shambles and what does he do? Come out once IIRC to burn some men and retreat back inside to stare at some fires. He's petty and petulant and he won't even man up to sleep with his own wife, but he had the audacity to mock Renly about his sexuality.

Obviously there's something about him that posters on this board like, but for the life of me I cannot fathom what it is.