Did Jon find the Horn of Winter?

[Eyron]

About the singing, could it be that were the giants to die out completely then the world would end? That would mean that the horn is really necessary at the end even if it does destroy the Wall.

I think that is what it means, that the earth can no longer give growth or life or something in those lines.

And that the wall has to go too, if we must rid the world from magic the wall is doomed. So I think the war will change the face of the earth in a big way, maybe the wall will prevent the dragons from going north also so it must come down for the war to commence and the balance to be restored.

Just thought of something... With no good reason or evidence of any kind

The Fist of First men is a big hill right? With some magical attributes IIRC.

Could it be a hall under it? Maybe the giants of the earth sleeps there.

Wroo wrooooo wakey pakey!

[Cydal]

Sam did sell it along with Books and other things for passage to Oldtown but Marwyn was going to buy it all back from the Captain before they left, the books most importantly.

[Eyron]

Sam did sell it along with Books and other things for passage to Oldtown but Marwyn was going to buy it all back from the Captain before they left, the books most importantly.

Can you give a reference for that, it would be nice. I can't find anything that point to that. It's not in the chapter when Sam thinks of how he had to pay for the journey, in that chapter it only says that he paid with everything he owned that was of any worth, like the books.

It says he was allowed to keep Aemons chain, Sams own clothes, boots and the horn.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I think that is what it means, that the earth can no longer give growth or life or something in those lines.

And that the wall has to go too, if we must rid the world from magic the wall is doomed. So I think the war will change the face of the earth in a big way, maybe the wall will prevent the dragons from going north also so it must come down for the war to commence and the balance to be restored.

Just thought of something... With no good reason or evidence of any kind

The Fist of First men is a big hill right? With some magical attributes IIRC.

Could it be a hall under it? Maybe the giants of the earth sleeps there.

Wroo wrooooo wakey pakey!

This is genius! The fist was a fort IIRC and very old. I like this. I just wrote this on the Thenn thread about iron and bronze but look at this. It is the oath that Meera and Jojen swear to Bran when they first meet him:

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green. (ahem, ahem)

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they both finished together.

you are the in-house genius here, tell me what you think of this oath.

[Eyron]

This is genius! The fist was a fort IIRC and very old. I like this. I just wrote this on the Thenn thread about iron and bronze but look at this. It is the oath that Meera and Jojen swear to Bran when they first meet him:

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green. (ahem, ahem)

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they both finished together.

Woaaaah!

You are the genius, you!

I had forgotten about that, I have no idea why, I had a special interest in Jojen and Meera but this just slipped out of my mind.

I feel really good about all our Iron theories now :) And the First men theory you posted... that was brilliant.

It all seems connected, and now we have the people most closely related to the CotF and the first men neatly sewn into the web!

This would suggest that the CotF (and maybe Howland and his children too) have much more knowledge of the two-sided magical forces than we have been told so far.

First idea:

I must be an old vow, probably from the time of the First men and the CotF, from the pact when they began living side by side (and interbreeding from the looks of it). The First Men took to the Old Gods and that means they worshipped the earth just like the CotF.

Could there be earth and water giants? Seems a little strange with water... So no, I do not think it represents giants. Unless the "earth" represents the giants and "water" represents the krakens...

But, all of the lines represents things essential for survival.

Earth and water: foundation for life, represents nature

Bronze and iron: protects you against enemies, represents humans

Ice and fire: as in winter and summer - necessary for seasons and hence life, and represents magic

So all these elements are considered essential and worthy of swearing an oath on... my brain is having a melt-down right now...

Second idea that came to me was that these are the elements of the peoples of Westeros, but that didn't work out when I tried it. It left the Andals (steel weapons) and Rhoynars (...flamboyance?) out.

What do you think?

Edit: I have to add, the iron swords in Winterfell - good catch! Both bronze and iron hold some protective value to the First men it seems, keeping the magic away? The iron swords keep the dead... dead. I wonder what the bronze weapons do...

[HashRouge]

Keep going with your theories guys, this is the longest thread I've ever started by a country mile :D

[Eyron]

Keep going with your theories guys, this is the longest thread I've ever started by a country mile :D

Ooops. We seem to have drifted slightly off topic... :leaving:

But it's all connected right?

The horn - magic- the giants - the First Men - the CotF - the Reeds... :idea:

[Shaggydog Stark]

First idea:

I must be an old vow, probably from the time of the First men and the CotF, from the pact when they began living side by side (and interbreeding from the looks of it). The First Men took to the Old Gods and that means they worshipped the earth just like the CotF.

Earth and water: foundation for life, represents nature

Bronze and iron: protects you against enemies, represents humans

Ice and fire: as in winter and summer - necessary for seasons and hence life, and represents magic

So all these elements are considered essential and worthy of swearing an oath on... my brain is having a melt-down right now...

Second idea that came to me was that these are the elements of the peoples of Westeros, but that didn't work out when I tried it. It left the Andals (steel weapons) and Rhoynars (...flamboyance?) out.

What do you think?

I knew you would offer me something to work with!

I must be an old vow, probably from the time of the First men and the CotF, from the pact when they began living side by side (and interbreeding from the looks of it). The First Men took to the Old Gods and that means they worshipped the earth just like the CotF.

I think it's from the pact too and I agree they seem to have merged two ideologies.

Could there be earth and water giants? Seems a little strange with water... So no, I do not think it represents giants. Unless the "earth" represents the giants and "water" represents the krakens...

But, all of the lines represents things essential for survival.

I am beginning to think that we are talking of all giants here. I don't think that the horn wakes just the giants we were talking about, but all mythological creatures that are gigantic in size and that can be found in both earth and fire...so yeah I think it involves krakens, griffins? what else is there?...etc.

Bronze & iron: I mentioned in the Thenns thread that the Starks when they die they build statues in their crypts and forge swords of iron so that they can protect themselves from spirits. The Starks are of the First Men so why do they forge iron swords instead of bronze? What is the significance of Iron? Okay let's see what we have of iron in westeros and see if we can connect the dots:

Iron:

1-Obviously the Iron Throne (made of the iron swords that Aegon the Conqueror took from the vanquished armies.

2- The Iron Islands and the Iron Kings...I think it is somehow related to "What is dead can never die but rises harder and stronger." (The giants awakening once the horn is blown?)

3-The song "The Iron Lances"...I wish we had the words to this.

4-Iron Bank of Braavos and remember our iron coin theory.

5-The Tattered Prince in ADWD's mercenary company is called "The Iron Shields"

6- One of the Gates in King's Landing is called the Iron Gate

7- A Maesters link, black iron=ravenry, and normal iron=warcraft

- What else? And how are all these connected, if they are connected at all?

Bronze:

1- Obviously it was the metal of choice used by the First Men

2- In the Free Cities the slaves are collared in bronze collars

3-The doors of the Dragonpit in King's Landing are made of bronze

4- House Royce's Coat of arms is: a black portcullis over a white crescent moon on purple bordered with runes on bronze. And Bronze Yohn wears bronze armor, reputedly thousands of years old, worked with runes that are supposed to ward him from harm

5- A Maester's link, bronze=Astronomy

6- The Moon Door in the Eyrie has heavy bronze bars

7- What else?

Can you make any sense of the bronze and iron stuff here or is it all irelevant?

Going back to the discussion, yes all seem to be elements of nature and all are necessary thing for survival.

No I don't think this is related to the Andals. I think you are onto something with your first idea and I am brain dead too.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Keep going with your theories guys, this is the longest thread I've ever started by a country mile :D

Glad you approve OP! We are not hijacking the thread, we will eventually piece all this stuff together to relate it to the horn :)...or we hope to... :lol:

[fassreiter]

Ooops. We seem to have drifted slightly off topic... :leaving:

But it's all connected right?

The horn - magic- the giants - the First Men - the CotF - the Reeds... :idea:

Sure is :)

The north has the best theories. Keep it coming, please.

[ICE CROW]

Can you give a reference for that, it would be nice. I can't find anything that point to that. It's not in the chapter when Sam thinks of how he had to pay for the journey, in that chapter it only says that he paid with everything he owned that was of any worth, like the books.

It says he was allowed to keep Aemons chain, Sams own clothes, boots and the horn.

I agree, i can't remember Sam selling the Horn. I would have remembered that , because of the fact i believed it to be the horn of winter.

@Cydal

If you post the quote, or the page number where this happens.

[Eyron]

Wow good work Shaggydog!

Off the top of my head about the iron and bronze:

There are a lot of Iron swords (connected to war, ravenry and keeping the dead dead)

There are a lot of bronze protection devises (related to dragons, astronomy and the moon)

I especially like the moondoor having bronze bars... A door in the sky... flying dragons...

Bronze Yohn has a moon on his shield, a portcullis, protective bronze runes...

So I think the iron will be a useful weapon against the others and the bronze against the dragons. There may be more uses for them but this is what I have at the moment :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

Wow good work Shaggydog!

Off the top of my head about the iron and bronze:

There are a lot of Iron swords (connected to war, ravenry and keeping the dead dead)

There are a lot of bronze protection devises (related to dragons, astronomy and the moon)

I especially like the moondoor having bronze bars... A door in the sky... flying dragons...

Bronze Yohn has a moon on his shield, a portcullis, protective bronze runes...

So I think the iron will be a useful weapon against the others and the bronze against the dragons. There may be more uses for them but this is what I have at the moment :)

Not bad! And this was off the top of your head? WOW!

So the bronze is to protect against dragons! I always wondered why the doors to the dragonpit were bronze. Were the doors in the Mereen pyramid also bronze? I can't remember. You know where they kept the dragons.

Iron...keeping the dead dead...hmmm...I wonder if this applies to the undead as well? Like Un-Cat and Un-gregor? Maybe Iron can kill them.

About the moondoor...I believe the doors themselves are made of weirwood.

Maybe iron can also be used against the wights?

[Eyron]

The doors in the dragon pit were iron. But they were not made for dragons in the first place I think. The doors were falling apart, were dinted and partly melted. So there is something to this perhaps :)

I can't remember exactly bit I don't think Hodor did so well against the wights with his iron sword. Nobody have tried it against the Others yet though. Maybe it only works if you kill a man with iron, and then they can't become a wight... Or as the Starks did.

I actually think the Stark tradition could have more to do with the warging, it's likely that the warging trait have surfaced before, perhaps in the age of heroes it was more common. So they protect their dead from eternal life as a wandering conscience by having the iron swords on their crypts.

Oh by the way

I think there is something to there just being Earth=Giants and Water=Kraken and not any other super-species.

The Ironborn are partly descendant from the first men (it was the First men who made the Seastone chair out of driftwood), they live closely linked to their environment and pray to their god of nature, the Drowned god= the kraken. It is a part of nature, just as the CotF praying to the earth.

[Eyron]

I just thought of the astronomy and moon part of the bronze-dragon connection...

Moon - Dragons

the moon is an egg :) it is known

Edit:

I also thought of the connection between iron and ravenry

Ravenry came from the CotF, practiced by them and the First men IRRC

But I just wonder, when did the use of iron begin?

It didn't come with the First men, they used bronze, at least I found nothing on the use of iron, and it should have followed the bronze, if we look at real history of development. The Andals came with steel which is a iron alloy, more technologically advanced.

[Shaggydog Stark]

The doors in the dragon pit were iron. But they were not made for dragons in the first place I think. The doors were falling apart, were dinted and partly melted. So there is something to this perhaps :)

I can't remember exactly bit I don't think Hodor did so well against the wights with his iron sword. Nobody have tried it against the Others yet though. Maybe it only works if you kill a man with iron, and then they can't become a wight... Or as the Starks did.

The

I actually think the Stark tradition could have more to do with the warging, it's likely that the warging trait have surfaced before, perhaps in the age of heroes it was more common. So they protect their dead from eternal life as a wandering conscience by having the iron swords on their crypts.

Oh by the way

I think there is something to there just being Earth=Giants and Water=Kraken and not any other super-species.

The Ironborn are partly descendant from the first men (it was the First men who made the Seastone chair out of driftwood), they live closely linked to their environment and pray to their god of nature, the Drowned god= the kraken. It is a part of nature, just as the CotF praying to the earth.

Aha good points. Iron has something to do with warging. That makes so much sense! The Krakens as well. I just remembered that the CoTF shattered the Broken Arm in Dorne using water to rise or something when they were fighting the First Men. I can't remember exactly. Maybe they used Krakens?

I got this off the wiki:

According to legend, the Stepstones were part of the Arm of Dorne, creating a land-bridge connecting Westeros to Essos. The First Men used that land-bridge to cross into the Arm of Dorne to begin their invasion of Westeros. when the greenseers of the children of the forest used magic to shatter the land-bridge into an archipelago named the Stepstones, located between the Broken Arm and the Disputed Lands.

I just thought of the astronomy and moon part of the bronze-dragon connection...

Moon - Dragons

the moon is an egg :) it is known

Edit:

I also thought of the connection between iron and ravenry

Ravenry came from the CotF, practiced by them and the First men IRRC

But I just wonder, when did the use of iron begin?

It didn't come with the First men, they used bronze, at least I found nothing on the use of iron, and it should have followed the bronze, if we look at real history of development. The Andals came with steel which is a iron alloy, more technologically advanced.

OOOOH, I love the moon is an egg and the link to dragons. That is so cool!

I have no clue when iron began to be used. I have to keep searching. I don't think the CoTF used ravenry. IIRC they talked to each through the trees. But I am not sure to honest. Unless you mean they used the ravens through warging? I seem to remember that ravens could speak before or something.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Look at what I just found, this is when Jon finds the horn of winter:

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out.

Honestly, how could we have missed this? :lol:

[Eyron]

Aha good points. Iron has something to do with warging. That makes so much sense! The Krakens as well. I just remembered that the CoTF shattered the Broken Arm in Dorne using water to rise or something when they were fighting the First Men. I can't remember exactly. Maybe they used Krakens?

I got this off the wiki:

According to legend, the Stepstones were part of the Arm of Dorne, creating a land-bridge connecting Westeros to Essos. The First Men used that land-bridge to cross into the Arm of Dorne to begin their invasion of Westeros. when the greenseers of the children of the forest used magic to shatter the land-bridge into an archipelago named the Stepstones, located between the Broken Arm and the Disputed Lands.

I have no clue when iron began to be used. I have to keep searching. I don't think the CoTF used ravenry. IIRC they talked to each through the trees. But I am not sure to honest. Unless you mean they used the ravens through warging? I seem to remember that ravens could speak before or something.

First, I tried to find more about the use of iron (particularly iron swords) but the only thing I found yet is that

Dawn is meteoric iron, from a fallen star.

I already knew this but haven't thought about it in this context. Not sure if it is relevant, since it probably is an alloy too, but the iron references keeps piling up... And we can believe it does not work for dragons, since the dragonpit doors in the pyramid were pretty useless against them.

The stepstones... I think it is likely it was the krakens or whatever force of nature that water represents, that the CotF could somehow summon.

So as of yet we only know that the CotF were connected to giants and krakens (or some water-dwelling being that stories have made into the kraken) So, the Arm of Dorne were destroyed by the CotF to prevent more intruders, and they used magic of nature.

I always interpreted the swords in the crypts as a protection for the dead not from other ghosts, but from awakening themselves. That's how I read it so I thought it was literally keeping them from becoming ghosts. I'm not sure I read it right but it was my impression. That's why I am so excited about the swords missing and the ghost in Winterfell :uhoh:

Look at what I just found, this is when Jon finds the horn of winter:

Honestly, how could we have missed this? :lol:

Aaargh!

How could our keen eyes miss that, I read it in an earlier post and I just escaped me! I have to think about those bronze bands a little...

Could it be to keep it safe from being destroyed by the dragons?

About the ravens, yes I believe it was Bloodraven who told Bran about the CotF using the crows by warging and to send messages, and they used to talk. This is what Bran is trying to do when warging the LCs crow and talking to Jon. It seems he is better at it than Bloodraven somehow. Jon snow jon snow...

[Shaggydog Stark]

First, I tried to find more about the use of iron (particularly iron swords) but the only thing I found yet is that

Dawn is meteoric iron, from a fallen star.

I already knew this but haven't thought about it in this context. Not sure if it is relevant, since it probably is an alloy too, but the iron references keeps piling up... And we can believe it does not work for dragons, since the dragonpit doors in the pyramid were pretty useless against them.

The stepstones... I think it is likely it was the krakens or whatever force of nature that water represents, that the CotF could somehow summon.

So as of yet we only know that the CotF were connected to giants and krakens (or some water-dwelling being that stories have made into the kraken) So, the Arm of Dorne were destroyed by the CotF to prevent more intruders, and they used magic of nature.

I always interpreted the swords in the crypts as a protection for the dead not from other ghosts, but from awakening themselves. That's how I read it so I thought it was literally keeping them from becoming ghosts. I'm not sure I read it right but it was my impression. That's why I am so excited about the swords missing and the ghost in Winterfell :uhoh:

Aaargh!

How could our keen eyes miss that, I read it in an earlier post and I just escaped me! I have to think about those bronze bands a little...

Could it be to keep it safe from being destroyed by the dragons?

About the ravens, yes I believe it was Bloodraven who told Bran about the CotF using the crows by warging and to send messages, and they used to talk. This is what Bran is trying to do when warging the LCs crow and talking to Jon. It seems he is better at it than Bloodraven somehow. Jon snow jon snow...

Oh I am getting excited about the missing swords too. I would love some dead Starks to rise again!

About the sword Dawn. I don't think there is any iron in it. I think it's made completely from a fallen star or something. I have to go back and check.

On a side note. I searched the site for horns and krakens and I found something unexpected. There seems to be three horns not two.

Check out this thread and tell me what you make of it:

http://asoiaf.wester...-a-kraken-horn/

There is a specific horn for krakens and one for giants and a third for dragons.

This of course destroys our theory about the horn of winter being used for waking more than one type of creature. The significance of three comes into play again. Perhaps each horn is meant to be blown by a dragon head? I have no clue and am reaching now.

[Eyron]

4- House Royce's Coat of arms is: a black portcullis over a white crescent moon on purple bordered with runes on bronze. And Bronze Yohn wears bronze armor, reputedly thousands of years old, worked with runes that are supposed to ward him from harm

6- The Moon Door in the Eyrie has heavy bronze bars

I just checked out the Royces, and there has been a mix up. The arms you described are the ones of House Royce of the Gates of the Moon, not the original Royces of Runestone,

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Royce_of_the_Gates_of_the_Moon

Nestor was the one Littlefinger bought and gave lordship to make the Vale accept him.

About the original Royces:

They are descendants from the first men, Their motto is We remember. This I like very much!

Their arms had iron studs on it, I think I actually remember the interpretation that it was a portcullis (or I just had it mixed up with Nestor Royces arms), but I can't figure out if it's just a POV interpretation, I think so, in that case it's a good pointer from GRRM. On the wiki it was interpreted as pebble-stones, but I think the citadel is more likely to be in the right on this!

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Royce02/

The iron studs could represent something else I think. studs=weapon, the bronze shield=protection

I am beginning to be very interested in the Royces, Bronze Yohn was the most outspoken in wanting to join Robb in the war, he is loyal to the North. He refused to marry his daughter to Tyrion when offered by Tywin. I get the feeling that they know a good deal about the past means of protection, and they remember.