Mirri Maz Dur

[Alexia]

MMD and Robert Baratheon use the same rationale to justify the deaths of two boys: the world will be better with them, dead. I'm not defending Dany again, but MMD's killing of Rhaego is vile.

Dany accepted the price. "Show me what I have bought with my son's life." If MMD had actually fully restored Drogo (as Dany hoped she would but MMD never promised to do) she would never have been burnt.

[Evamitchelle]

You wouldn't want to wake the dragon, do you.

MMD and Robert Baratheon use the same rationale to justify the deaths of two boys: the world will be better with them, dead. I'm not defending Dany again, but MMD's killing of Rhaego is vile.

But Robert doesn't die as a result of his actions, while MMD does (and in a horrific fashion too).

[Sand Snake No. 9]

You wouldn't want to wake the dragon, do you.

MMD and Robert Baratheon use the same rationale to justify the deaths of two boys: the world will be better with them, dead. I'm not defending Dany again, but MMD's killing of Rhaego is vile.

You're sure MMD killed Rhaego; I'm not, athough she has no reason to mourn him.

[LordBloodraven]

Dany accepted the price. "Show me what I have bought with my son's life." If MMD had actually fully restored Drogo (as Dany hoped she would but MMD never promised to do) she would never have been burnt.

You're sure MMD killed Rhaego; I'm not, athough she has no reason to mourn him.

She was being bitter and sarcastic, I think Alexia.

"You knew", Dany said when they were gone. She ached, inside and out, but her fury gave her strength. "You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price and let me pay it".

"It was wrong of them to burn my temple", the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly, "That angered the Great Shepherd".

"This was no god's work", Dany said coldly.If I look back, I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me".

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust".

[mcb]

Drogo didn't have any costly ambitions before Dany showed up. If it wasn't for Dany, he wouldn't need to raid the Lambmen or whatever they're called.

Isn't that exactly what I wrote? They would remain simple, peace loving farmers. That's what the Dothraki were famous for, before Dany came and corrupted them.

[brashcandy]

Drogo didn't have any costly ambitions before Dany showed up. If it wasn't for Dany, he wouldn't need to raid the Lambmen or whatever they're called.

Oh Lord! Now I've heard it all!! Drogo entered into an alliance with Illyrio and Viserys. He got a young nubile wife in the bargain, someone that had the blood of the legendary Targs. It was a mutually beneficial agreement for everyone involved. A lot of shit went down in the interim and Dany felt that it was left to her to conquer Westeros in place of her brother and give her son his rightful legacy. She did not ask the Dothraki to go pillaging and raping women.

[Sevumar]

Isn't that exactly what I wrote? They would remain simple, peace loving farmers. That's what Dothraki were famous for, before Dany came and corrupted them.

This does bring up a good question. We know from ASoS that the Free Cities more or less bribed the Dothraki to leave them alone. The Dothraki don't attack the slave cities because they have a mutually-beneficial relationship. So what does that leave for them to attack normally? The Lhazareen, for one, but you'd think if there are dozens of khalasars out there, they'd need more than that to sustain their lifestyle.

[brashcandy]

Dany accepted the price. "Show me what I have bought with my son's life." If MMD had actually fully restored Drogo (as Dany hoped she would but MMD never promised to do) she would never have been burnt.

Perhaps or perhaps not. The point is that Dany learnt a very valuable lesson when Mirri tricked her. Life pays for life. Had it not been for Mirri the dragons might have never been born, but that doesn't mean that what Mirri did was justified or that Dany willingly traded Rhaego's life for Drogo's.

[brashcandy]

But Robert doesn't die as a result of his actions, while MMD does (and in a horrific fashion too).

If Doran Martell had been a remotely competent plotter, the Lannisters and the Baratheons would have felt his wrath a long time ago.

[Verboten]

If Doran Martell had been a remotely competent plotter, the Lannisters and the Baratheons would have felt his wrath a long time ago.

Shut up about Doran Martell already.

[Evamitchelle]

This does bring up a good question. We know from ASoS that the Free Cities more or less bribed the Dothraki to leave them alone. The Dothraki don't attack the slave cities because they have a mutually-beneficial relationship. So what does that leave for them to attack normally? The Lhazareen, for one, but you'd think if there are dozens of khalasars out there, they'd need more than that to sustain their lifestyle.

The Dothraki mainly raid the Lhazareen I'd say, and spend the rest of the time fighting each other.

[Ser Lepus]

The Dothraki mainly raid the Lhazareen I'd say, and spend the rest of the time fighting each other.

They have turned the inland of Essos in a wasteland covered of ruins; they do attack every city small enough or poorly defended enough to be seized by somebody without sophisticated siege techniques, and, if Khal Pono is an example, now and them they try to raid some of the Free Cities; I´m sure they often capture caravans, slaves from the orchards and raid villages and small towns and sell the slaves in another city...

I think the present state of affairs is the end of a cycle: the dothraki have emptied the continent, and they doesn´t attack the remaining Free Cities because of their strong walls, but also because there are no other business partners; they are scraping the corners of Essos they still haven´t depopulated to sell the captives, and once they are done with it, they will have nothing to sell and will try to attack the Free Cities to get a last booty before self-destroying; then, either the Free Cities manage to defend themselves from the dothraki and develop a martial culture able to fight them off, or the dothraki ravage the Free Cities and then regress to a more primitive state as roaming stone-age herders.

[Queen Cersei I]


Oh Lord! Now I've heard it all!! Drogo entered into an alliance with Illyrio and Viserys. He got a young nubile wife in the bargain, someone that had the blood of the legendary Targs. It was a mutually beneficial agreement for everyone involved. A lot of shit went down in the interim and Dany felt that it was left to her to conquer Westeros in place of her brother and give her son his rightful legacy. She did not ask the Dothraki to go pillaging and raping women.


But she knew that that would be part of the bargain when she used their army to try to regain Westeros.

I agree with you that Dany was sold like a piece of meat to Drogo, and that assimilating (as she did) was one of the few options available to her. She was in a horrible situation, and did the best she could with it. And I’m sure plenty of people would find Dany’s leadership abilities and determination in regards to reclaiming Westeros in the name of the Targs to be great and heroic.

But I don’t buy your characterization of her as a naïve girl. Or a completely innocent victim; having nothing whatsoever to do with the atrocities committed against Mirri and her people. As the Queen of the people raiding the villages, she bore some responsibility for everything that went down, yes.

[Chirios]

She has the most awesome line in the first book, she avenges her people by killing a khal. Then she kills The Stallion That Mounts The World. Since there are obviously a lot of differing opinions on her (that are filling other threads) I created a topic for her. At my first though I do think Mirri is justified in killing both Drogo and Rhaego, because Drogo is a monster and Rhaego (if the visions in the house of the Undying can be believed) would have burned cities. But as I thought about it more I came to the conclusion that she should not have killed Rhaego based on the sins of his people. So she's a thought provoking character for me. She's neither a her nor a villain but a complex grey character that GRRM excels at creating in her few scenes. What do you think of her and why?

She was entirely justified in what she did. People don't like her because she isn't a POV character.

[Queen Cersei I]

Drogo spent many years murdering, burning pillaging and raping, and it´s right he was put down like a rabid dog; I don´t care if he was nice to Dany

And he wasn't even that nice to her. With the exception of his kindness and sensitivity on their wedding night, Khal Drogo basically ignored Dany. Their interactions were limited to painful, shockingly insensitive sex, during which Drogo bent her over, banged her without foreplay, and was so rough that Dany was forced to frequently stifle cries of pain and hide her tears. Honestly,, it remains one of the great mysteries of the series why Dany ever came to like, much less love, this man. The only explanation I can find for it is Stockholm syndrome, to tell you the truth.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

No they would have a mammogram.

Uh...sonogram. I have always found the predictions of the gender of infants kind of laughable whenever they happen in the books, because even with modern technology like ultrasounds, mistakes are still made today. I have a friend who had to redo her entire blue sports themed nursery when she got home with her new daughter, whom two separate sonograms had assured her was a boy. I have had three boys myself, and carried each of them differently, so the high vs. low thing is total bunk.

Back on the subject, the sack of Mirri's town was actually primarily carried out by Khal Ogo's khalasar. Khal Drogo showed up and the real battle was between his khalasar and Ogo's, not an attack on the Lamb Men initiated by Drogo to finance conquering Westeros. Not that this is a distinction that would have made much difference to the victims, but the idea that Drogo began moneyraising with a planned attack on that particular village is not correct. Not that he was not capable of such a thing ...just sayin'. If Drogo's khalasar had not shown up and defeated Ogo's, then Mirri's fate would almost certainly have been worse (not cointing what ultimately happened when she pissed Dany off).

I don't believe Mirri intentionally killed Rhaego. I do think she saw his death as kind of a lucky bonus, but I am not sure even Mirri knew whose life would ultimately pay for Drogo's when she began to work her spell. Quite a few people actually ended up dying in the fighting outside the tent, and Mirri did warn Dany to stay out. If Mirri had wanted Rhaego dead, all she had to do was tell Dany it was fine for her to sit with Drogo while she performed the spell.

Mirri told Dany very matter-of-factly what exactly she had given birth to, but I did not get the impression that Rhaego's stillbirth or condition were what Mirri had expected. When Dany says that Rhaego was alive and kicking when Jorah carried her into the tent, Mirri's response is, "that may be as it may be.". That response sounds to me like Mirri did not expect or foresee what would ultimately happen to Rhaego. And Mirri does seem to care what happens to Dany, the text tells of her caring for Dany herself after the birth and going without sleep to do so. I don't think she bore Dany any personal ill will, she simply saw what happened to rhaego as a sort of karmic gift from the Great Shepherd she follows.

As an aside on the Dothraki, I have always found it sort of odd that GRRM states that the Dothraki neither buy nor sell, and do not really understand the concept of buying and selling ...but then turns around and makes it perfectly plain that they have no trouble at all grasping the concept of acquiring slaves, driving them like a herd of cattle to the slaving cities, and selling them.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

My attitude towards MMD is to think that she'd be considered a martyr and hero among her people for stopping supervillain Drogo and potential supervillain II, Rhaego. I do not think that MMD would have killed Rhaego if it were not for Dany's insistence that she was willing to pay any price to save Drogo. I agree with Alexia that at least deep down Dany knew that her son's life would be taken in the ritual. In that context she is aborting Dany's child with her approval so murder is a strong word to use.

The most evil part of what MMD did was to be dishonest with Daenerys about what she was buying. Dany would certainly not have agreed to sacrifice Rhaego's life if she knew that Drogo would be veggie-Drogo. But I don't think that Mirri would have done the ritual if it would actually have saved Drogo's life.

I still think Dany had to burn her. First of all bringing Drogo back as an abomination would be enough to burn her as a witch by Dothraki standards. Secondly, misleading Dany about the price did lead to Rhaego's death. She has the blood of two Dothraki princes on her hands. I think Mirri knew her life was forfeit the moment she began the ritual, but did not care. That's why she stuck around while Dany was unconscious. She wanted to show that she was brave, and willing to accept the consequences of her actions. She also wanted to rub Dany's face in it before she died...

As an aside on the Dothraki, I have always found it sort of odd that GRRM states that the Dothraki neither buy nor sell, and do not really understand the concept of buying and selling ...but then turns around and makes it perfectly plain that they have no trouble at all grasping the concept of acquiring slaves, driving them like a herd of cattle to the slaving cities, and selling them.

They also raise and trade horses and horsemeat to the free cities as part of the arrangement. They definitely trade but I think that the terminology and general feelings surrounding trade are different. It's like the difference between "gifting/receiving" and "buying/selling" - the terms feel different even if the end result is the same.

...who knew the Dothraki could be so touchy-feely.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

MMD cheated Dany and mocked her at the end. She told her that she would cure the Khal (and she was a volunteer, nobody forced her even though I don't care about Khal Drogo's fate) then killed her baby while she was comatose. Her rationale was that all she held dear was turned to ashes by Drogo (fair enough) and that she had saved many many lives. Robert's perspective was that Aegon was a dragonspawn who could rally all the disgruntled noblemen and secret Targ loyalists, and that letting him alive would be tantamount to breeding a new civil war. Both were killed (the two cousins, Aegon and Rhaego) for what they could be...

MMD said she would SAVE Drogo's life, which she did. Was he not alive? Dany asked for him to live and that's what she got. She cheated death so a life had to be given to replace it. Sort of like Jaquen telling Arya that she cheated death out of three lives, so he granted her three deaths in it's place. MMD also warned her NOT to enter the tent while the blood magic was performed, Mormount took Dany into the tent against MMD's warning. Dany even admitted the Jorah killed Rhaego. I don't blame MMD for doing what she did and I'm sure she knew that she was going to die for it. What is life worth when everything that made it worthwhile has been destroyed.

[soob]

The book is obviously supposed to be ambiguous about exactly what happened to the baby. And don't forget that we're seeing everything from the perspective of a 12- or 13-year-old girl. Anyway, my feeling is that the baby was a goner from the moment Dany agreed to the bargain. She blames Mormont, sort of, for taking her back into the tent...but why did he do it? Her healthy baby (and it's repeatedly stated that the baby is quick and apparently healthy) suddenly has to be born now. Was that a coincidence, a natural product of the stress? I doubt it. Too convenient. As to the baby being deformed and rotten--it's stated that the baby was alive shortly before. Why does it come out rotten and deformed? Again it's not clear, but the question is really how malicious MMD is.

Again it's open to multiple interpretations. My reading is "pretty damn malicious." She basically tricks Dany into the agreement. But did she even have to -- did she need Dany's consent to murder the baby? I doubt it. She was just sweetening the retribution by making Dany feel guilty about what happened. The baby comes out rotten with scales and wings like a dragon to mock her.

It's a completely different question as to whether MMD was justified in what she did. The answer is no, of course, there's no way to justify murdering a child to punish its parents. But considering how many kids have died that probably sounded pretty empty to her.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Drogo didn't have any costly ambitions before Dany showed up. If it wasn't for Dany, he wouldn't need to raid the Lambmen or whatever they're called.

Oh please. The Dothraki do not believe in money but they still burn, rape and pillage wherever they go. Jorah told Dany that some towns people give them things in order to keep them from sacking their towns and a Khal might become insulted with the number or quatlity of the gifts and sack them anyway or because he might feel that his men need a good fight. They would reign terror on everyone anyway whether Dany were there or not.