A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

To me, the "one of the husbands" bit seemed to come out of nowhere. I thought it was possibly just a crazy thought that popped into Jorah's mind. Previous to this, has there been any mention of polyandry in ASoIaF? I don't remember any such thing. Females have a few paths to power. Of course, some women have affairs. I don't, however, remember any sort of tradition in either Esos or Westeros where one woman would have more than one husband.

It made a lot of sense to me. The parallels between Daenerys and Aegon the Conquerer are clear - she's Aegon, not Visenya or Rhaeneys. This is borne out by the fact that she rides Drogon, who has more in common with Balerion than the other dragons. So, the symmetry would have it that Dany should have two husbands who take the place of Aegon's sisters in the retelling of the legend.

And who cares about law in this case: Aegon brought Polygamy to Westeros, Dany could bring Polyandry.

[Parwan]

I see a steadily-growing role and importance of religion throughout the books. I'm not sure it's as simple as everyone becomes a zealot in AFFC. Melisandre seemed pretty damned zealous to me in ACoK, but if you're just talking about the Seven, then I see what you're saying. The High Septon of the Faith has pretty much been a corrupt bastard in one faction's pocket or another until the election in AFFC too.

My point wasn't that Dany was much different from a lot of the characters in ASOIAF in not taking religion very seriously. I just think that if the Faith remains a major power by the time she arrives in Westeros, being "insufficiently pious" could contribute to the friction in what's already going to be a difficult relationship.

...

"God of my fathers, if you can hear me in your watery halls beneath the waves, grant me just one small throwing axe. The Drowned God did not answer. He seldom did. That was the trouble with gods."

Those are Asha's thoughts. The "gods who don't answer" theme is a pretty common one in ASoIaF though. Such thinking is done almost entirely by Westerosi characters. We have a related but much harsher and sarcastic point of view from Jaime Lannister: If the gods are so merciful and just, why is the world so thoroughly fucked up? There are other philosophical/theological matters--e.g. are The Seven actually separate entities, or are they different aspects of a single deity? None of the main characters in the thread we are following spend any time thinking about such matters. Dany, Jorah, and Barristan are basically secularists.

Yes, religion is playing a more important role as the story progresses. Things may change for Dany when (or if) she meets up with Moqorro. A meeting with Marwyn may also have theological as well as magical significance. I note that there are some who think that Moqorro actually is Marwyn in disguise. The physical descriptions of the two men lead me to doubt this. I suppose things will become clearer in the upcoming books.

[Parwan]

It made a lot of sense to me. The parallels between Daenerys and Aegon the Conquerer are clear - she's Aegon, not Visenya or Rhaeneys. This is borne out by the fact that she rides Drogon, who has more in common with Balerion than the other dragons. So, the symmetry would have it that Dany should have two husbands who take the place of Aegon's sisters in the retelling of the legend.

And who cares about law in this case: Aegon brought Polygamy to Westeros, Dany could bring Polyandry.

That could be, but Jorah would really be reaching here. He's obviously not Dany's brother; he's not even a Targaryen. Still, it's possible. His attitude toward marriage and dragon riding might be the same as the one Alexia attributes to him in the matter of sexual advance--nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Alexia]

That could be, but Jorah would really be reaching here. He's obviously not Dany's brother; he's not even a Targaryen.

I agree with this; thus I said...

Oh, and I found it interesting that he is fantasizing about marrying her and riding one of her dragons! Jorah, have you lost the few brain cells that were bouncing around in there to begin with? Do you ever not think with Little Jorah?

It was an extremely presumptuous suggestion to make, at best. The sex bit, well, she just flashed him her boobs. Like I said, ball in his court now. Marriage is a whole different ball of wax, and one would think that Jorah learned his lesson through Lynesse.

Things like this, incidentally, are what make me think that Jorah won't have learned anything from his experience on the wrong end of a slave collar.

[Sevumar]

It was an extremely presumptuous suggestion to make, at best. The sex bit, well, she just flashed him her boobs. Like I said, ball in his court now. Marriage is a whole different ball of wax, and one would think that Jorah learned his lesson through Lynesse.

I'm not sure it's all that presumptuous. I mean, he's the only one who has been there for her throughout all the trials of the series to ASoS. He's saved her life numerous times, provided her with good counsel, helped her adapt to the Dothraki way of life, and served as a source of reassurance. It's not uncommon for people who forge very close bonds through dramatic (and traumatic) common experiences to end up in romantic relationships. She's been affectionate and downright flirty with him the whole way, so it's not completely out of bounds to suggest he might have a role as her husband. He doesn't know until right then that she doesn't return his feelings.

Things like this, incidentally, are what make me think that Jorah won't have learned anything from his experience on the wrong end of a slave collar.

He's definitely stubborn, but learning to adapt to harsh circumstances that differ dramatically from what he's accustomed to is exactly how he's managed to stay alive. He can learn, if he has to. I think Dany might provide the pressure he needs to internalize those lessons, if he hasn't already.

[Alexia]

I mean, he's the only one who has been there for her throughout all the trials of the series to ASoS. He's saved her life numerous times, provided her with good counsel, helped her adapt to the Dothraki way of life, and served as a source of reassurance. It's not uncommon for people who forge very close bonds through dramatic (and traumatic) common experiences to end up in romantic relationships. She's been affectionate and downright flirty with him the whole way, so it's not completely out of bounds to suggest he might have a role as her husband.

All of these are great reasons why he could suggest that he might have a role as her lover. Husband? King? Dragonrider?

:lmao:

I should get the next chapter up by tomorrow night, btw. I have a commitment this evening so I won't be able to do this. Should be fun, now that they've turned towards Slaver's Bay.

And I have to reiterate again how much I like reading Dany's chapters independently. :)

[PatrickStormborn]

I think Jorah's husband speech was a bit... presumptious of him. He's about three times her age, so I don't know what he was expecting. He should have been happy being her most trusted adviser - and maybe he could've even become a dragonrider!

And I have to reiterate again how much I like reading Dany's chapters independently. :)

I generally find that with all the characters. Part of the reason why I was fairly slow reading the books was because I'd be gripped with one story, and then the next chapter would be on the other side of Westeros. ADWD was the worst for me, because I found that most chapters only got interesting towards the end.

On re-reads, though, I don't mind the switching point of views.

[Parwan]

...

It was an extremely presumptuous suggestion to make, at best. The sex bit, well, she just flashed him her boobs. Like I said, ball in his court now. Marriage is a whole different ball of wax, and one would think that Jorah learned his lesson through Lynesse.

Things like this, incidentally, are what make me think that Jorah won't have learned anything from his experience on the wrong end of a slave collar.

Good points.

A related issue: Jorah, at his worst, is not as presumptuous as a certain Iron Born pirate. I do not buy the Dany + Victarion idea at all. (I can't remember whether this was suggested on this thread or on the previous one.) It is possible, though definitely not certain, that Dany the teenager might find the commander of the Iron Fleet attractive. Queen Daenerys, however, would never accept being kidnapped (not Victarion's term, but essentially what he intends). Whatever the physical attraction, the man's "marriage proposal" would turn the queen off completely and kill any chance he might have had. I bring this up out of sequence because it is related to the debate about what characters should and should not presume. We can discuss Victarion more when we get to A Dance with Dragons.

[SeanF]

Good points.

A related issue: Jorah, at his worst, is not as presumptuous as a certain Iron Born pirate. I do not buy the Dany + Victarion idea at all. (I can't remember whether this was suggested on this thread or on the previous one.) It is possible, though definitely not certain, that Dany the teenager might find the commander of the Iron Fleet attractive. Queen Daenerys, however, would never accept being kidnapped (not Victarion's term, but essentially what he intends). Whatever the physical attraction, the man's "marriage proposal" would turn the queen off completely and kill any chance he might have had. I bring this up out of sequence because it is related to the debate about what characters should and should not presume. We can discuss Victarion more when we get to A Dance with Dragons.

I doubt if she'd find his burnt forearm very appealing either, although she does like men with blue hair and gold teeth.

[mrazny]

Most of Dany's actions are going to suffer from confirmation bias, but with how young she is there is little chance of clearing up how much of it is a learning/growing experience and how much are simply character flaws.

One of these aspects is how Dany has advisors sure, but she doesn't confide in them in full. When it comes to Jorah, she makes internal notes of her feelings towards Jorah but never talks to him about it directly.

Hopefully this turns out to be youth and not a recurring aspect of Dany's character that she will still after ADWD assume people will understand things that she isn't revealing to them. She does the little bits of affection after deciding that she doesnt' love him back the way her loves her, but she still cares, and wants to show that she cares. Those actions are only "necessary" as a reaction to her not loving him back, but she never tells him, which allows those actions to seem like she could love him in the way he does her.

If there's a worry that I actually harbor about Dany's character, it's her obsession with the prophecies. I don't want to be a broken record about how Dany's obsession parallels with Aegon V's obsession with the PWTP, which become Rhaegar's obsession, and both of them DIED in circumstances that were very much shaped by that obsession. I'll try to see the bits that appear along the way with the re-read, but Dany seems to only send Jorah away *because* of her stupid prophecies, not because he deserved to be sent away. Dany's quest only started to stymie after this.

This chapter had Jorah take his chance because Dany's obsession gave him the framework to work himself into her destiny. Though Jorah's love will not be the reason she sends him away.

[Sevumar]

All of these are great reasons why he could suggest that he might have a role as her lover. Husband? King? Dragonrider?

I don't think it's impossible for him to become any of those. He wouldn't be her first choice for political reasons and all kinds of crazy things have happened in the books. An important thing to keep in mind is that Dany is probably not in much of a position to pick dragon riders, so I'm pretty sure if one of the others decides Jorah's his guy, then she's going to have to deal with it.

[mrazny]

And how will Dany handle having her Dragons superseding her wishes? Possibly well, and may even be the necessary circumstance for Dany to increase the additional *needed* self-awareness to become the right kind of ruler.

[Parwan]

And how will Dany handle having her Dragons superseding her wishes? Possibly well, and may even be the necessary circumstance for Dany to increase the additional *needed* self-awareness to become the right kind of ruler.

It seems to me that you are wondering about the solution to a problem that may not exist. No dragon ever accepts more than one rider at a time. Fine, but this does not say that this fact ever caused any significant difficulty for any Targaryen ruler. I don't see that the text gives us any hint of a problem like the one you are suggesting. Rather the contrary. Aegon the conquerer only rode one dragon. This clearly did not mean that the other dragons superseded his wishes. There is no strong reason to assume that anything of the sort will happen with Dany.

Obviously, dragons present challenges and dangers. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that too much is being made of the "only one rider at a time" business.

[Parwan]

Does anyone else feel that the Westerosi aren't very good at the assassination business? Does anyone else think it interesting that Dany and her people do not notice this?

We hear quite often that men will risk much for a lordship. That may be true. If so, it could be that almost all such men live in Gulltown or White Harbor. They can't afford the price of passage to Qarth or Slaver's Bay. In AGoT, there was exactly one attempt on Dany's life that was the result of Robert's offer. There were no attempts on Viserys, even though he was a much softer target.

Even in the early days of the two Targaryen children, it's not clear that any significant assassination attempts were made. There are a lot of references to the Usurper's knives. However, no specific examples of attacks or attempted poisonings are given. It could be that when Daenerys and Viserys made their escapes, they were being pursued by bill collectors. Certainly, Robert indicates that this could have been the case. He tells Ned that Jon Arryn kept him from going after the two Targaryens when they were easier to get to. Also, at one point Dany remembers playing around in the market as a little girl. This doesn't sound like she was in much danger.

We don't need to worry too much about Varys here. Even if we pretend that he died during the rebellion or was otherwise replaced by a different master of whisperers, the situation doesn't change much. Jorah keeps saying that Dany's peril will increase the closer she gets to Westeros. The facts don't bear this out. There are attempts on her life, but these are made by people of Esos because of things Daenerys has done in Esos. Jorah may believe in the threat from the iron throne, or he may be exaggerating the danger to make himself more important to the queen. It is interesting that neither Dany nor any of her entourage ever notice the paucity of credible threats emanating from King's Landing. In all of the story through A Dance with Dragons, the entire Westerosi-inspired danger to Daenerys comes to:

One wineseller.

Relatively speaking, not much of a threat.

[Sevumar]

It seems to me that you are wondering about the solution to a problem that may not exist. No dragon ever accepts more than one rider at a time. Fine, but this does not say that this fact ever caused any significant difficulty for any Targaryen ruler.

I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing. I wasn't talking about dragons having more than one rider, I was saying that Dany may not be pleased with the riders the other two dragons end up selecting and that there may be conflicts of purpose, strategy, and personality when all 3 positions are filled. Up until now, it seems like her understanding has been that she gets to play some role in the selection of the other riders, but the end of ADWD suggests to me that the dragons are much more in control of that process.

We don't know much about the process that leads a dragon to choose it's rider. It may be that the Targaryens on Dragonstone forbade anyone but family members from being around the dragons in an attempt to restrict the candidate pool to themselves. Dany really hasn't been in a position to do that during the adolescence of Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal.

[Sevumar]

Does anyone else feel that the Westerosi aren't very good at the assassination business? Does anyone else think it interesting that Dany and her people do not notice this?

I think it's pretty clear to readers that Varys was doing the minimum necessary to sell Robert the idea that he had arranged for the assassination of Dany/Viserys. Obviously, he wouldn't want anyone to succeed, as Dany represents an asset to him and Illyrio.

There were no attempts on Viserys, even though he was a much softer target.

Drogo never did get that lordship.

Even in the early days of the two Targaryen children, it's not clear that any significant assassination attempts were made. There are a lot of references to the Usurper's knives. However, no specific examples of attacks or attempted poisonings are given.

I agree. There's no evidence that assassination attempts were made while Viserys and Dany were moving from city to city in their youth. I think the stories told to Dany were manifestations of Viserys's fear and paranoia, perhaps reinforcing his sense of importance in a twisted kind of way.

Jorah keeps saying that Dany's peril will increase the closer she gets to Westeros. The facts don't bear this out. There are attempts on her life, but these are made by people of Esos because of things Daenerys has done in Esos. Jorah may believe in the threat from the iron throne, or he may be exaggerating the danger to make himself more important to the queen.

Jorah's always extremely cautious and very suspicious when it comes to Dany's life. I think part of this stems from the fact that what he fears most is losing her, and he takes his job very seriously. I don't think he's wrong, but he hurts his case by being so vocal about it without any up-to-date information on the power and political situation in Westeros. Why he hasn't tried to find out some of this from Tyrion is beyond me. He was never good at the whole intelligence-gathering thing,

[Alexia]

I'm sorry it took so long for me to get to our next chapter. It has been a long, tiring week. But here it is!

ASOS Daenerys Chapter II

Here we have the first mention of the harpy, which becomes important in ADWD. And a little history.

Old Ghis had fallen five thousand years ago, if she remembered true; its legions shattered by the might of young Valyria, its brick walls pulled down, its streets and buildings turned to ash and cinder by dragonflame, its very fields sown with salt, sulfer, and skulls. The gods of Ghis were dead, and so too its people; these Astapori were mongrels, Ser Jorah said. Even the Ghiscari tongue was largely forgotten; the slave cities spoke the High Valyrian of their conquerers, or what they had made of it.

Yet the symbol of the Old Empire still endured here, though this bronze monster had a heavy chain dangling from her talons, an open manacle at either end. The harpy of Ghis had a thunderbolt in her claws. This is the harpy of Astapor.

We meet the charming Krznys mo Nakloz, who gets off to the right start by telling his slave to “tell the Westerosi whore to lower her eyes.” I have to admit, as over the top as GRRM made the slavers, this entire translation is hilarious. He’s so insulting, all the while not realizing that she understands him perfectly well.

We meet little Messendei, who is no more than ten years old and appears to be from Naath – a place that I never remembered, where the inhabitants are called the Peaceful People and considered to be the best slaves.

Dany observes that Kraznys has larger breasts than she does. Either her breasts are very small, or his are very large. I’m not sure what to think either way.

Dany is told that only one boy in three survives the training. Kraznys informs her that they would be willing to stand until they dropped if he commanded it. Arstan doesn’t really consider this a positive, and neither does Alexia.

Dany asks why they are cut, when whole men are stronger than eunuchs (aside: I would assume testosterone production would affect muscle development?). She is told that their discipline, loyalty, and lack of fear is more important than brute strength.

This is GRRM; the past few chapters allowed me to forget it. A nipple is slowly worked off. Some special drug is used to kill pain. Which seems like a really bad idea to me, but what do I know…

They remove the entire penis as well as the testes, to prevent any erection. Uhm… how do they urinate? More importantly, how do they survive the operation? Kraznys expresses pity for the celibates of the Seven Kingdoms, saying men are not meant to live in chastity.

They don’t have names. Presented for your reading pleasure are… Red Flea, Black Rat, and Brown Flea. They draw names from a bin daily. Why not just assign them numbers? This seems excessively complicated.

Ah yes… the baby killing. Before the mother’s eyes, no less. Puppy strangling too, of a puppy that the poor kid has raised for a year.

I should add that the Unsullied are so ridiculously over the top that it is impossible to feel much beyond hilarity while reading this entire passage. Outrage eludes me… Kraznys has escaped from a video game and needs to be put back in. Bad Kraznys!

Unsullied only sold by the unit – the thousand or the century. They used to sell them by the ten, but found that they broke their conditioning in that case.

Dany must place her own officers over them. They are trained to obey, not to think. No wonder she has so many problems in ADWD…

Arstan’s thoughts demand quoting.

”My queen, there have been no slaves in the Seven Kingdoms for thousands of years. The old gods and the new alike hold slavery to be an abomination. Evil. If you should land in Westeros at the head of a slave army, many good men will oppose you for no other reason than that. You will do great harm to your cause, and to the honor of your House.

I intend to save this and use it in response to every defense of Jorah’s slaving that I see. Cultural relativism may be applicable to Drogo, but in Jorah’s case it is just as though a local police officer arrests some girls for shoplifting and instead of sending them to prison, sells them to an international sex-trafficking ring to be exported to Amsterdam to work in brothels.

Arstan thinks that she should stay with Illyrio and begin sending envoys to Westerosi lords to raise support while her dragons are growing.

This passage has me in hysterical laughter.

”Tell the whore that if she requires a guide to our sweet city, Kraznys mo Nakloz will gladly serve her… and service her as well, if she is more woman than she looks.”

“Good master Kraznys would be most pleased to show you Astapor while you ponder, Your Grace.”

“I will feed her jellied dog brains, and a fine rich stew of red octopus and unborn puppy.”

“Many delicious dishes can be had here, he says.”

“Tell her how pretty the pyramids are at night. Tell her I will lick honey off her breasts, or allow her to lick honey off mine if she prefers.”

“Astapor is most beautiful at dusk, Your Grace.”

“Ask her if she wishes to view our fighting pits. Douquor’s Pit has a fine folly scheduled for the evening. A bear and three small boys. One boy will be rolled in honey, one in blood, and one in rotting fish, and she may wager on which the bear will eat first.”

Barristan rocks here.

”When I leave Astapor, it must be with an army, Ser Jorah says.”

“Ser Jorah was a slaver himself, Your Grace. There are sellswords in Pentos and Myr and Tyrosh you can hire. A man who kills for coin has no honor, but at least they are no slaves.

I do think the line about no honor is ridiculous. Some folks do need to eat, and even Barristan himself got paid for his killing, however much he likes to dress it up in the pretty language of honor.

An interesting line, on Dany’s part. “I… my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?”

She has been thinking about Jorah’s kiss, and is not pleased with him. She also thinks that Jorah is jealous of Barristan. She’s getting horny now, and has started masturbating to someone she can’t visualize who is younger and hotter than Jorah. Her maid woke up to her masturbation, and decided (as any normal woman would) that the appropriate response is to join in! By the way, it is a great honor to please her khaleesi.

Dany slaps Jorah for bringing her to Astapor.

This line makes me laugh. “There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone.” And Gregor was thus honored.

When she argues in favor of how Rhaegar fought, Jorah said that Rhaegar fought nobly, valiantly, honorably… and died. For Jorah, the end justifies the means.

[Verboten]

Uhm for a sex slave the training will probably kick in in that situation. I always interpreted that scene as a way to show that Dany will use things she doesn't approve of, but will feel horribly guilty about it later and attempt to justify it, which is an attitude that contrasts directly with her motto of If I look back I am lost and is therefore a huge part of her character and the struggles she faces with Meereen, her ruthless,harpy eating Danaerys fighting with the free all slaves, compassionate Dany who wants to watch olive trees grow.

[Alexia]

Irri isn't a sex slave. I just checked MDIND's recap of the second AGOT chapter, and Irri was given to Dany as a riding instructor. Doreah (who died at the beginning of ACOK) was the sex slave.

[mediocre cheese]

in Jorah’s case it is just as though a local police officer arrests some girls for shoplifting and instead of sending them to prison, sells them to an international sex-trafficking ring to be exported to Amsterdam to work in brothels.

Jorah mormont = Mark Ciavarella?