A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II

[mediocre cheese]

Everyone in the nobility calls him the mad king. I doubt barristan is an expert on the smallfolk, and from everything we've seen they have a really imperfect understanding of what's going on. The only smallfolk comments we have got on aerys are positive.

[tze]

Everyone in the nobility calls him the mad king. I doubt barristan is an expert on the smallfolk, and from everything we've seen they have a really imperfect understanding of what's going on. The only smallfolk comments we have got on aerys are positive.

That's absolutely true, but at the same time, even the Watchmen have a saying that the Wall "has more moods than Mad King Aerys", and it seems like there are more smallfolk in the Watch than lords.

[mor2]

And there's actually not much solid evidence from the text that "everyone" hated Aerys. In fact we have some of the opposite - Arya meets a man who wishes for the good ol' days and people don't really argue with him when he says things were better under king Aerys. The fact is most Westerosi don't even know or care that he was an insane tyrant.

you might be confusing Aerys time before and after his imprisonment.

[PatrickStormborn]

None of the smallfolk seem to care that Aerys was mad. Does anyone remember the puppet shows the smallfolk were doing in AFFC? They showed a lion butchering other animals before being killed by a dragon - so it seems like dragons are a symbol of hope to them, not a symbol of fear.

I expect it's the nobles Dany will have trouble winning over, as at the end of ADWD Mace Tyrell calls Dany as mad as her father - despite actually fighting for the Targaryens in Robert's Rebellion!

As for the Seven, I don't think they'll be huge fans of Dany! I'm guessing they'll love Aegon and champion him, along with most of the nobles, as he'll be seen as Rhaegar's son instead of Daenerys who will be seen as the Mad King's daughter. And she was also born of incest, unlike Aegon. However, I think it would be a nice twist if Aegon turns out to be "mad", and Daenerys wins over the smallfolk and proves that she's Rhaegar's sister.

[nanother]

Finally caught up again! Too tired to make a coherent post, and the Undying and all this prophecy stuff confuse the hell out of me anyway. Some random thoughts (although I'm guessing most/all of this has been discussed to death on these boards)

Did all those signs (glass candles, ghost grass, blind guy allgedly regaining sight etc) start happening after burning down the HoU or is it just when the rumors reached Xaro? There was some discussion, I think in the previous thread, about the relationship between magic and Dragons...but could the Undying also be affecting it? (WTH are the Undying, anyway?)

I might be slow, but I never noticed noticed the difference in wording: one for life, one for death, one to love. I sort of thought it was also 'for'. How does that work? I like the 'fire for death' being the House of Undying, especially if the above signs resulted from it, as it seems to have a similar significance to the birth of dragons.

As for the treasons, do they have to be in the same order? I'd think Viserys already betrayed her for gold...don't think Jorah fits that well - he is dishonest, but betrayal is something else (and it's not for gold in any case - possibly for the love of his homeland, but it all feels rather forced); I sort of like the idea of her being the betrayer, although 'know' seems to indicate more of a passive role (ie being on the receiving end). I don't think she betrayed Viserys, though. She kind of betrayed her son, sacrificing him for Drogo. But what was that for? Love, perhaps? Dunno, it doesn't seem to work all that well. Also, IIRC tricking the masters of Astapor could possibly be a betrayal for gold, but it's a bit of a stretch.

Interesting that the 'daughter of death' section refers to Viserys, Rhaego (I guess) and Rhaegar - indicating the three deaths that turned her (in whatever way) into who she is. She assumed that he 'bought' her dragons with her husband's and son's life, but clearly her 'sun-and-stars' is actually pretty insignificant in the whole scheme (other than fathering Rhaego). Not saying the spell would have worked without him and MMD, but perhaps Viserys and Rhaeegar were also 'ingredients' in some way.

The third elements of 'daughter of death' and 'bride of fire' are both related to Lyanna - does it make sense to assume that the 'stone beast' is also related to her (or Jon)? In any case, no clue what it might be...

Bride of fire - considering that her marriage to Drogo ended with a fire, does it mean that fire will be an important feature in all three relationships (I guess) indicated there? Or does it all lead to fire? The 'fire to love', whatever that is? If L+R-J then bth the flower and 'fire' could refer to Jon, but I sooo don't want the two of them hooking up...

crackpot theory: Jorah is AA, Dany is Nissa-Nissa (I recall that Dany intended to give a really fine sword to Jorah someday); the 3 heads of the dragon are Aegon (he's real or at least a Blackfyre in this case), Sam Tarly (so that he can get back to the wall safely and fast enough to be any help) and...umm Tyrion, I guess (let's grant him his childhood wish...)

[Parwan]

Sevumar:

"It's worth noting that we never seem to get a good sense of what it is the warlocks do or what types of powers they possess."

MyDogIsNamedDanerys:

"If I had to guess, I'd say it's just fortune telling. I suppose that all or most of their power is derived from that of the Undying themselves."

I'd say that a good percentage of their business is spells and curses, along with things like charms and wards to block or reduce the effect of curses and evil spells. A warlock, after all, is a male witch. In A Game of Thrones when Sam is talking about his early days, he says that his father brought two warlocks from Qarth. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and had Sam bathe in the hot blood to make him brave. It didn't work. This goes along with Pyat Pree's comments to Dany. She asks if it is not true that people fear the power of the warlocks. He answers that this is no longer the case. Their power has faded. Later, though, he says their power is increasing. One of the examples he gives is pretty definitely a curse. A woman who once laughed at one of them now has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all.

Dany dealt them a severe blow. On the other hand, just the appearance of the dragons and the return of magic appears to be adding to their power.

[nanother]

About Aerys and the smallfolk:

1) we have no idea what the smallfolk thought abouthim before all the fighting started. And when life sucks (and it clearly does right now, primarily because of the war), it's quite natural to hate the current regime and recall the 'good old times'.

2) it's quite possible that his madness wasn't really noticeable to the smallfolk, or not in an obvious way - I get the impression that it mostly affected those who were important/stupid/unfortunte enough to get his attention, which would be mostly the nobility. That doesn't make it any more acceptable.

Setting King's Landing on fire would have been one thing that goes pretty hard on smallfolk, but luckily it didn't happen, no thanks to Aerys...

Arya meets a man who wishes for the good ol' days and people don't really argue with him when he says things were better under king Aerys

I'm guessing it's the encounter during the march to Harrenhal - there's not much room for discussion there, as said old man gets his teeth knocked out for saying that much, so everyone shuts up afterwards. So we don't know if that's the general opinion or just that one man. But yes, it's remarkable that he doesn't mean Robert.

[Alexia]

I'm guessing it's the encounter during the march to Harrenhal - there's not much room for discussion there, as said old man gets his teeth knocked out for saying that much, so everyone shuts up afterwards. So we don't know if that's the general opinion or just that one man. But yes, it's remarkable that he doesn't mean Robert.

I wonder if the smallfolk blame Robert for how they suffered during his rebellion, too. If they perceive Aerys as a victim of Robert's aggression, that would make sense.

[Parwan]

... In A Game of Thrones when Sam is talking about his early days, he says that his father brought two warlocks from Qarth. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and had Sam bathe in the hot blood to make him brave. It didn't work. This goes along with Pyat Pree's comments to Dany. She asks if it is not true that people fear the power of the warlocks. He answers that this is no longer the case. Their power has faded.

...

Oops, wrote that too fast. "Pyat Pree" above should be "Xaro Xhoan Daxos."

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Ok, I just wanted to post a few reactions to the last Clash chapter before I post the first asos one (I'll do that tomorrow).

OK so Dany and Xaro finally end the "arrangement" they've had, both realizing they're not going to coerce anything else out of each other. :) Still looking back I honestly think that it was mutually beneficial. Xaro's palace became the center of focus in Qarth for the months he was hosting Daenerys. Dignitaries from across the city and common folk alike poured into his palace. I can't imagine that he wasn't taking a cut of his own from Dany's gifts.

Dany meanwhile had a home base of relative safety and comfort from which to plan her next move. She also made use of Xaro's knowledge of the city to make her (unfortunately unsuccessful) attempt to woo the pureborn.

He's a fun character, I've decided. I'm quite interested to see what they do with him in the TV series. I especially enjoy how he bursts into tears and makes the most ridiculous over the top statements of lust/love/devotion. I feel that this can be strongly contrasted to Jorah's mostly stoic presence. I suspect that whether Dany saw it or not there was a ton of eyerolling going on in the background.

I really like the scene with the plate. Both Jorah and Dany are quite clever which I enjoy seeing. I absolutely love Dany's haggling skills! It makes sense, too - we learned in one of her aGoT chapters that she practically grew up in the markets of Pentos. I suspect she learnt how to haggle quite well, especially since she and Viserys were poor and no doubt needed to make every penny count. Hey, there's at least one educational advantage she has over Aegon! ;)

She is now hated by the Qartheen for what she did, with the commons glaring as she went through the streets. Pyat Pree survived the beatdown from when he tried to kill her and is now gathering the other warlocks together to get even. She has to run or die, which is an unpleasant reminder of fleeing the Usurper’s knives as a child.

This is interesting, it's still unclear to me exactly why everyone hates her other than to advance the plot. It never seemed like the warlocks were very popular. Maybe it's what I was thinking before - dragons were a curiosity, but now it's clear they are dangerous. Meh, we dont' really understand enough of Qarth to say for sure... well, Dany needs to move on and now she has a reason so that's good enough I suppose.

Dany is very interested in the three treasons. She believes that the first one is MMD. She pauses to wonder if Pyat Pree and Xaro were the others and then rejects the idea because she doesn’t feel that their motivations fit. I think she’s missing a key piece here – that actions against her could not really be considered treason because these men have no professed loyalties towards her, no oaths, no nothing.

Hmm... I suppose that if someone invites you into their home, makes you feel welcome and then stabs you in the back that could be considered "treason" or at least "betrayal". Not that I think that's what Xaro of course, but I'm not sure a specific oath of loyalty is required. Perhaps a sense that this person is on your side is all that's needed? I'm not clear on the distinction between treason and betrayal here. You may be right that Dany is missing a piece.

How could Jorah have gotten word out so soon? I’m surprised Barristan wasn’t reserved for their Aegon imposter. How much time has elapsed between the hatching of the dragons, and this chapter? A fair chunk of it was spent wandering across desert.

I don't think it's clear, but Dany's been in Qarth for months. We can pretty much assume that Jorah sent word as soon as he reached the Qarth docks, and at the same time, the sailors began to spread the rumors too. A month is likely enough time for word to reach Pentos.

I too wonder exactly how Barristan got mixed up with Illyrio and Belwas. I had thought that adwd would make it clear that Varys was involved, but what Barristan says about how he started towards Dany really makes it seem as if it was his own idea and Varys was not involved. I suppose Varys would have known what was up and given Illyrio advance warning that he should intercept Barristan on his way. But exactly how did he meet Illyrio? And when? Who came up with the idea to have him be Belwas' squire?

But your other point is also a salient one. Why not save him for Aegon if they dont' even have any intention of using Daenerys?

I think because Dragons suddenly make Dany at least as important as Aegon. They already have many strong protectors around Aegon, and Dany has only Jorah. They really are the ultimate siege weapon and would make Aegon's otherwise dicey - and we'll soon see just how dicey - conflict a complete rout instead.

This is the final recap for ACOK. MDIND will start us on our first chapter recap of ASOS (ten chapters).

There are (incredibly) only 6 chapters in aSoS actually! They are action packed though.

[ARYa_Nym]

It was mentioned in another thread but Barriston was the one who killed the last Blackfyre pretender of the male line, Maelys the Monstrous. This could be why they didn't want him near Aegon.

[Sevumar]

OK so Dany and Xaro finally end the "arrangement" they've had, both realizing they're not going to coerce anything else out of each other. :) Still looking back I honestly think that it was mutually beneficial. Xaro's palace became the center of focus in Qarth for the months he was hosting Daenerys. Dignitaries from across the city and common folk alike poured into his palace. I can't imagine that he wasn't taking a cut of his own from Dany's gifts.

Sometimes I wonder how safe she really felt there. With Xaro leering at you all the time and his incessant flattery, how could it be comfortable? But it's better than not having a magnificent palace to work from in a city full of people you don't know. And I'm with you on the profit thing, I would bet that Xaro found a way to make money on Dany's visit even if he didn't get the girl.

As you mentioned, Xaro himself was a good source of information, taken with a teaspoon of salt, of course.

He's a fun character, I've decided. I especially enjoy how he bursts into tears and makes the most ridiculous over the top statements of lust/love/devotion.

I like how flamboyant and ostentatious he is in his language and gestures, but I'm not real fond of him as a character. He provides a lot of texture to Dany's time in Qarth, but her visit to the city still feels like a bit of a lull in the action wedged between the Dothraki and her adventures in Slaver's Bay.

This is interesting, it's still unclear to me exactly why everyone hates her other than to advance the plot. It never seemed like the warlocks were very popular. Maybe it's what I was thinking before - dragons were a curiosity, but now it's clear they are dangerous.

Yeah, I agree. I brought up the point about the warlocks earlier in the thread. It's one of the few times when Martin could've been a bit clearer about cause and effect.

I too wonder exactly how Barristan got mixed up with Illyrio and Belwas. I had thought that adwd would make it clear that Varys was involved, but what Barristan says about how he started towards Dany really makes it seem as if it was his own idea and Varys was not involved. I suppose Varys would have known what was up and given Illyrio advance warning that he should intercept Barristan on his way. But exactly how did he meet Illyrio? And when? Who came up with the idea to have him be Belwas' squire?

These are things I've wondered too. He was on his own in King's Landing for a while after his dismissal, but given that he didn't have any money, he probably had some help crossing the sea to Essos. I'm willing to bet Varys arranged his delivery to Illyrio, but we won't hear about it in the story.

I think because Dragons suddenly make Dany at least as important as Aegon. They already have many strong protectors around Aegon, and Dany has only Jorah. They really are the ultimate siege weapon and would make Aegon's otherwise dicey - and we'll soon see just how dicey - conflict a complete rout instead.

Jorah's done a pretty good job of keeping Dany safe and alive, and keeping her grounded in reality. Dany does become a much more valuable asset to Illyrio after she gets the dragons. I think he's in for a bit of a surprise when he actually sees her again. She's never been in direct contact with him since leaving Pentos, yet he still expects her to be willing to comply with his orders. Dany's had plenty of time to mull over Illyrio's motives and he's going to be shocked when she doesn't go along with his plans.

[manitot]

I love this thread! First time i read the Dany arcs I simply enjoyed following her thoughts and actions...with the occasional reactions: "No!!" or "I understand, Khaleesi..." or "WTF little fool?!" or "Yeah, Dracarys!! Dracarys!!!" and finally with "Ooh wonder what happens next" after ADWD.

Now, after scrolling through much on this thread, I am especially liking the 'questions' the readers are left to wonder about, those that didn't immediately catch my attention even after X times of reread :blush: = illyrio and varys' plots on targaryens, ser barristan being sent to dany instead of aegon, quaithe being like 'the riddler' of batman among others...also wondering why Pyat Pree wasn't killed...

I'm now really excited to read more since aSoS is next! First chapter's the Jorah-kiss! (Okay, obviously you now know who I'm rooting for)

On a side note...

I really like the scene with the plate. Both Jorah and Dany are quite clever which I enjoy seeing.

Loved this as well! I was laughing my ass off while reading it especially the brass platter on Belwas' head! Would be nice to see some badassery Astan action time too since he had none in the first season.

[mrazny]

Very much looking forward to the ASOS chapters! (and as a bit of a ribbing, glad we'll finally actually be re-reading the sections people are arguing consistently ;) )

One parallel between reader reality and the Westeros/Essos reality that may inform the story...

I don't think GRRM is setting up prophecy as more a payoff for how/who, but for the path the character is taking *because* they have heard this prophecy.

Stannis seems almost too stubborn to compromise because of the prophecy, but it's unilateral that no reader believes he's AA. Melisandre being wrong about Stannis paints her in a negative light from a competency perspective let alone what her role and motives are moving forward.

And historically, the PTWP prophecy led to one of the Largest (as far as events that the whole world seems to be aware of) mysteries left within the novels in Summerhall. Since we don't know exactly how Aegon V acted, we don't have the full Targaryen history lesson about prophecy, but especially with how much Dany thinks about it, and I don't believe anyone has championed the case for Jorah to actually be one of the betrayals, I'm definitely leaning towards the most important part of the prophecies being how Dany either obsesses over or confuses their meaning going forward.

[Parwan]

It's pretty clear that all magic didn't die. It seems to have gone into a state of eclipse, but Bloodraven was still practicing his arts long before circumstance and Dany hatched dragons.

Yeah, all magic didn't die. Also,we see a decline in magic in the lands of the POV characters. Elsewhere, things aren't so clear. There are indications in the text, for example, that the Others and the wights didn't go away entirely. The White Walkers might not have been sleeping below the ice for thousands of years. Perhaps they just retreated to the far north, with only occasional forays into the lands inhabited by the Free Folk. The wildlings burned their dead. Craster's sons didn't just die and rot. There are other indications and hints that the "bad guys" were always out there somewhere.

Also, we know very little about Yi Ti, Asshai, the Shadow, the Jade Sea...From what we do know, magic in these places probably didn't go away. It may not even have declined much.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

A Storm of Swords, Daenerys Chapter 1

Daenerys and her Khalasaar are on their way to Pentos in the ships Illyrio sent - much to the dismay of the Dothraki. The ships are becalmed at the moment, and Dany is watching her dragons fly.

Jorah and then Arstan join her, and they speak of Dragons. Dany wonders how long dragons live, and how large they will grow. Jorah explains that in Westeros, dragons usually died in war, and Arstan adds that Balerion lived 200 years and was large enough to swallow oxen. Jorah and Arstan take the opportunity to have a little bitchfight about the size of dragons. Arstan mentions he knew Dany’s father and her brother, and she is delighted, asking to know more.

“Did you find [Aerys] good and gentle?”

Whitebeard did his best to hide his feelings, but they were there, plain on his face. “His Grace was… often pleasant.”

“Often?” Dany smiled. “But not always?”

“He could be harsh to those he thought his enemies.”

“A wise man never makes an enemy of a king,” said Dany. “Did you know my broter Rhaegar as well?”

“It was said no man truly knew prince Rhaegar. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.”

Ser Jorah snorted. “Along with a thousand others at some harvest feast. Next you’ll claim you squired for him.”

Arstan and Jorah bitch at each other some more about Rhaegar and Lynesse, and Arstan tells a tale of Rhaegar as a boy reading a prophecy and deciding he would have to be a warrior to achieve his destiny. After Arstan leaves to attend Belwas, Jorah tells her not to trust Arstan because he is too old, too well spoken and too knowledgeable to be squire to Belwas. Dany agrees tacitly and wonders at who might betray her next, when the wind suddenly picks up.

Later Dany is feeding her dragons (nekkid dragon training seems like a bad idea??) when Ser Jorah comes in and wants a word. He watches her feed her dragons, using a new technique she taught them.

“Drogon,” Dany said softly, “dracarys.” And she tossed the pork in the air.

Drogon moved quicker than a striking cobra. Flame roared from his mouth, orange and scarlet and black, searing the meat before it began to fall.

Dany exiles her naked handmaids and invites Jorah to sit beside her on the bed. Jorah tells her she shouldn’t trust Arstan or Belwas, he tells her they will be the ones to betray her as prophecied. He says that Arstan and Belwas could have been in league with the sorrowful man, that it was all an act to gain her trust. Dany laughs at the extremity of his paranoia, but Jorah is undeterred, arguing at least Illyrio is not to be trusted. They go back and forth for awhile.

He means well, Dany reminded herself. He does all he does for love. “It seems to me that a queen who trusts no one is as foolish as a queen who trusts everyone. Every man I take into my service is a risk, I understand that, but how am I to win the Seven Kingdoms without such risks? Am I to conquer Westeros withi one exile knight and three Dothraki bloodriders?”

His jaw set stubbornly. “Your path is dangerous, I will not deny that. But if you blindly trust in every liar and schemer who crosses it, you will end as your brothers did.”

His obstinacy made her angry. He treats me like some child.

Finally, Jorah suggests his plan. Instead of going to Illyrio on Illyrio’s ships with Illyrio’s men, they should buy an army first in Slaver’s Bay. An Unsullied army. He tells her the tale of “the three thousand of Qohor,” (obviously a Thermopylae reference) where three thousand Unsullied successfully defended the city from 20,000 Dothraki. He tells her they can use the goods in the ships to buy the Unsullied and make their way over land. Dany begins to be convinced, and then excited at the plan. She stands (oops, still naked), declares she’ll tell Groleo their new plan at once, and begins to dress… when Ser Jorah grabs her and kisses her. She is surprised and doesn’t protest until he lets her go.

“You… you should not have…”

“I should not have waited so long,” he finished for her. “I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often an well.” His eyes were on her breasts.

Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. “I… that was not fitting. I am your queen.”

“My queen,” he said, “and the bravest, sweetest, and most beautiful woman I have ever seen. Daenerys--”

“Your Grace!”

“Your Grace,” he conceded, “the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust. Well here’s your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen – three dragons and three riders.”

“Yes,” said Dany, “but my brothers are dead.”

“Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon’s wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly Daenerys there is no man in all the world who will be as true to you as me.”

My thoughts on this one:

Eeeeee dragons flying!!!! <3 <3 <3 Dany is thinking at this point that her dragons may be large enough to ride in a year. I guess that's about right, actually! They are only the size of dogs at the moment.

OH and wow it’s so blindingly obvious that Arstan is Barristan Selmy. I totally missed it when I read the books for the first time. I didn’t think about Barristan even existing after his banishment until Arstan is “unmasked” but seeing it now I feel like a complete idiot... OH well.

And Jorah, way to be a big ol’ hypocrite. Hey I wonder why he thinks everyone’s a trator - MAYBE BECAUSE HE WAS ONE. Sigh. I do see his perspective (he’s absolutely right that Arstan’s not who he says he is, and Jorah knows that Dany trusted him while he was spying on her) but this attitude of his just makes his actions much more difficult to forgive. Good thing I have a soft spot in my heart for hypocrites (I really do!). Dany’s response to Jorah which I quoted is spot on and his reply is weak. “You shouldn’t trust anyone.” “I have to trust someone.” “Well… you shouldn’t trust everyone.” Yeah, that’s what she said… And also! His advice is specifically “Don’t trust Illyrio” when he is the one that’s been sending letters to Varys by way of Illyrio until very recently! This just popped into my head, but I wonder if the reason he is delaying their return to Illyrio is because he is afraid his secret will be revealed, and he’s buying time?

And I just want to add that Jorah (despite demonstrating his weak moral fibre) is acting in a consistent and understandable way from his perspective. He luuurves Dany, wants to protect her, and he knows because he’s a traitor, that traitors can appear to be allies. His plan with the unsullied seems reasonable, too – it provides a backup plan in case Illyrio’s not to be trusted.

And, the kiss. First off, I don’t think Jorah went into Dany’s cabin intending to make a move on her – it seems to me he was all business until Dany stood naked in front of him and dude decided to take a chance. Plus like Semuvar and I were saying before, he has some hope, I think, that Dany might be into him what with all the kissing, hand touching, drawing down onto cushions and whatnot. Still, he probably shouldn’t have surprised her like that - seems like Jorah has been reading too many romance novels (much like GRRM, “before her nipples could betray her??” C’mon George! That’s pure Harlequin…)

Dany’s reaction is conflicted and we don’t get much of her actual thoughts on it (yet). Based on her reactions next chapter I can only conclude that at least physically she was turned on by being kissed. Her thoughts during the kiss are too neutral though to imply her finding it either repulsive, or definitely attractive. Mentally though it’s obviously a violation of their relationship and she’s disturbed by that. She’s his superior, and grabbing her/jerking her around/kissing her without without permission is not something a man who supposedly lives to serve her should be doing. Plus there’s the whole fatherly love thing which I think is the type of love that currently predominates towards him. Plus, in her mind he’s taken it upon himself to change their relationship and she likes the way their relationship had been (well except the condescending attitude she’s still having to put up with).

Ugh you guys I have a lot of feelings.

[brashcandy]

Jorah definitely proves his usefulness in this chapter. Sure, he is a big hypocrite for warning her about traitors when he was a traitor himself, but as you noted MDIND, at least he's doing it out of genuine concern and love for her. His suggestion to go to Slaver's Bay is the real turning point in Dany's arc, moving her from pawn to player, and it's sad to think that soon after this he is banished

:(

I find his declaration of his desire for her to be at once fascinating and disturbing, I mean it's obvious that the man has been pining for this young girl for a while. I never really saw it coming, but when it happened it was like oh, yes, of course he wanted her. His idea that he could be one of her husbands is sweet, but I think at this moment he is truly divorced from reality.

Poor Dany is obviously caught off-guard, and her only response is to pull the "Queen card". It works, but it's obvious that overstepping his bounds is not what she truly takes offence to. She simply never envisioned him in this light and is not attracted to him in this way. Agreed on the covering the nipples part - so not realistic and seems like something GRRM picked up along the way from a bad romance novel. :)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Jorah definitely proves his usefulness in this chapter. Sure, he is a big hypocrite for warning her about traitors when he was a traitor himself, but as you noted MDIND, at least he's doing it out of genuine concern and love for her. His suggestion to go to Slaver's Bay is the real turning point in Dany's arc, moving her from pawn to player, and it's sad to think that soon after this he is banished

:(

Hmm we can discuss it later but I'm not really sure that going to Slaver's Bay was one of Jorah's best ideas. Like I pointed out, with his original plan they could only afford a few hundred Unsullied. Obviously Dany's "ingenuity" makes that much more, but as a plan it leaves a lot to be desired. Plus, what doesn't occur to Dany until she actually arrives is that the plan requiresthat she buy human beings! Which turns out to be horribly morally repugnant to her in reality and there's an argument to be made that Dany should have realized how wrong this would be before she agreed to Jorah's plan. Dany often uses her gut feelings as her moral compass, and this turns out to be the case in Astapor. However, she knows how horribly slaves are treated by the Dothraki - why should she expect Slaver's Bay to be any better?

And the rest of the chapter is basically Jorah lecturing her on things she already knows... so not terribly useful either.

I find his declaration of his desire for her to be at once fascinating and disturbing, I mean it's obvious that the man has been pining for this young girl for a while.I never really saw it coming, but when it happened it was like oh, yes, of course he wanted her. His idea that he could be one of her husbands is sweet, but I think at this moment he is truly divorced from reality.

Hehe I think we are in Dany's mind here because that's her reaction exactly.

As for the husbands thing... that's quite interesting. Knowing what we know of Jorah, would he really be happy for Dany to marry someone in addition to him? He's definitely the jealous type. There's a funny bit in a couple chapters where she considers marrying Daario and Jorah (hahahha... how soon before one kills the other in that arrangement??).

Poor Dany is obviously caught off-guard, and her only response is to pull the "Queen card". It works, but it's obvious that overstepping his bounds is not what she truly takes offence to. She simply never envisioned him in this light and is not attracted to him in this way.

Hmm... I don't think that can be true. She knew since the start of aCoK that he's hopelessly in love with her. What's different and what offended her is that he would actually act on it. She's super naive about romance literally having had no exposure to it whatsoever. She was barely past puberty when she was sold - she probably has never even had a crush. I believe she honestly thought that Jorah could remain unrequited forever and still be her loyal subject and best friend and be flashed boobies and sit next to her naked on a bed without ever acting on his desires or revealing his feelings. She doesn't realize how incredibly painful that would be and therefore how unsustainable. Why? Because she has not yet desired someone that she could not have.

Therefore, I actually think that the overstepping his bounds thing is why she was upset - she really didn't realize that there would even be a problem here.

[Lummel]

Hmm we can discuss it later but I'm not really sure that going to Slaver's Bay was one of Jorah's best ideas. Like I pointed out, with his original plan they could only afford a few hundred Unsullied. ...

I think this is a really interesting point because it develops into a question about Jorah's motivation.

The unsullied that Dany eventually makes off with make for a good sized core for an invasion army but a couple of hundred would only be enough for a good sized bodyguard. Jorah we know has been active in the slave trade and as a mercenary in the cities so we might expect him to know something about the cost of slaves so is he just naive here and imagines that three ships worth of goods can buy them an awful lot of soldiers or is this just a ploy (consciously or unconsciously) to keep Dany away from Pentos and away from becoming a serious pretender for the throne of Westeros - a situation in which Jorah could well be supplanted by other men?

[mediocre cheese]

Jorah knew that a boat was the perfect place to make his move.

...

In terms of the plan to go to slaver's bay, I was always of two minds. If Dany had gone to pentos she'd be entirely in Illyrio's power. Her dragons are still symbolic at this point, and she has only jorah and her 3 bloodriders, against all those who are under illyrio's command. Illyrio's reputation is of someone who'd cheerfully sell his closest friends out, and in pentos she'd be right across the sea from tywin and the lannisters who would want to eliminate her (which they wouldn't be able to do, due to the civil war, but she doesn't know that). Going to pentos had a great deal of risks. At the same time stopping at slaver's bay in order to procure a small army has relatively little effect as well, and ends up delaying her significantly.

One thing that always puzzled me in this chapter, Jorah says everyone saw rhaegar in tournaments and playing his harp. How often would jorah have seen rhaegar? He's lord of bear island, which is a small isolated remote area, how many times would he have seen the crown prince? Did Jorah frequently go to KL? (I would presume not). Did Rhaegar ever go north? At ned's tournament the only northern contestants were the guys he brought south with him, so I presume jorah was not frequently entering southern tournaments. But if Jorah does vaguely know rhaegar, the question comes up of how well brandon and ned knew him, and what they think when he kidnapped lyanna.