A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II

[Parwan]

ACOK Daenerys Chapter V

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I am not sure what this means. Does Illyrio know that the dragons have hatched by now? How could Jorah have gotten word out so soon?

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Question answered: Illyrio knows of the dragons.

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Illyrio definitely knows, and Jorah would not have needed to inform him. Remember the reception Dany received as she rode into Qarth? Men beat gongs and blew curious horns, a column of camel riders emerged from the city, etc. Obviously, the word has gone out, and it would undoubtedly have gotten to Pentos pretty quickly. Exactly what "pretty quickly" means here is not entirely clear. Ships travel between the two cities, of course, so the time of a voyage would set a maximum time. I don't think we've heard about communication by raven in Esos, but it seems likely that there would be such a system.

I guess that Quaithe, Xaro, and the warlock brought the news to the city before Dany and her khalasar arrived. There is an issue I brought up in the earlier thread. In the post I labeled "Women, Magic, and Power," I said it was very unlikely that Quaithe just happened to be hanging around in the city when Jhogo arrived. It seems likely that the dragon birth gave her some sort of feeling, premonition, or whatever. Somehow she could sense what happened at a considerable distance. A related matter I didn't bring up earlier: Dany's bloodrider probably wasn't a great salesman. Think about it: some savage rides in from the red waste with a tale about dragons. The citizens of Qarth would probably think, "Yeah right, this guy's been out in the sun too long." But then a woman of the Shadow appears and takes the report seriously. That would have gotten the attention of the powers-that-be and led to three riders (not just one) going out to check on things. That also would have started the rumor mill going and led to a lot of initial news going out in various directions.

[Parwan]

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I'm pretty sure they will be. Aren't glass candles discussed at the Citadel in Sam's final AFFC chapter? I dare say they'll be important in TWOW, as magic continues to take over the series.

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Glass candles are very important in the "magic returns" theme. In the Prologue to A Feast for Crows. some young men from the Citadel are sitting around a tavern, drinking, discussing issues, and trading insults. We have this exchange between two fellows, Armen and Leo.

"Armen looked down his nose at Lazy Leo...'Archmaester Marwyn believes in many curious things,' he said, 'but he has no more proof of dragons than Mollander. Just more sailors' stories.'

'You're wrong,' said Leo. 'There is a glass candle burning in the Mage's chambers.'"

That is one clear link, among many, between dragons and glass candles.

There's also another matter of interest here. It's the oft-stated principle: The problem isn't what you don't know. The problem is the things you "know" which aren't true. The challenge of lighting a glass candle is part of the last step in an acolyte's passage to maester. He stands a vigil in the vault. It is completely dark and he has only a "candle" of obsidian. Those acolytes who try to light the thing always fail. The message from their elders is "Be humble. Don't try the impossible." This is based on the Citadel's view of the world: The Children of the Forest are gone; the Others may never have existed; forget about dragons; glass won't burn; there's no place for magic in the world we are making. This view of the world is highly flawed. Magic does work, and it is returning in a big way.

[mor2]

I agree. Afterthe Valyria doom and eventually the death of dragons, Magic died away but with dany dragons it returned.

p.s. there are also other types of magic.

[Sevumar]

I agree. Afterthe Valyria doom and eventually the death of dragons, Magic died away but with dany dragons it returned.

It's pretty clear that all magic didn't die. It seems to have gone into a state of eclipse, but Bloodraven was still practicing his arts long before circumstance and Dany hatched dragons.

[Silmarien]

It's pretty clear that all magic didn't die. It seems to have gone into a state of eclipse, but Bloodraven was still practicing his arts long before circumstance and Dany hatched dragons.

It seems like magic didn't just suddenly disappear with the death of the last dragon, but slowly, gradually faded. Much like when Dany birthed her dragons, magic didn't suddenly "turn on" like a lightbulb, but is gradually becoming stronger and stronger...

[Sevumar]

It seems like magic didn't just suddenly disappear with the death of the last dragon, but slowly, gradually faded. Much like when Dany birthed her dragons, magic didn't suddenly "turn on" like a lightbulb, but is gradually becoming stronger and stronger...

I'm not saying it was an abrupt change, but there's some evidence that Bloodraven's powers might not have waned as much as those of other kinds of magic practitioners. Brynden talks about watching for a long time, showing that he may have been a fully-powered greenseer during the nadir of magic.

[ARYa_Nym]

The magical barriers that kept the Others from passing through still worked but that might weaken somehow while other forms of magic get stronger.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Heyyy finally back and responding to stuff! I'll get to Ch V in a bit. Here's my replies to ChIV comments.

BTW Alexia! There are actually only six Dany chapters in asos so I think they'll fly by. There are 10 in adwd, though far less happens in them...

It's worth noting that we never seem to get a good sense of what it is the warlocks do or what types of powers they possess. Is their order a traditional broker of knowledge and prophecy? They don't seem to manifest much overt magic the way we'd normally think of it, although Pyat Pree does seem to appear and fade rather easily. This is the only real close-up look we get of the warlocks in the series, except for some mention of Euron's use of them. Can we draw any conclusions about Euron's experiences or abilities from the fact that he seems to have consumed a lot of shade of the evening?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's just fortune telling. I suppose that all or most of their power is derived from that of the Undying themselves. i didnt' get the impression that Pyat ever used stealth magic or anything like that.

We get a pretty detailed description of the experience of drinking shade of the evening and I want to reproduce it here for comparison because it reminded me of Bran's reaction to the weirwood paste in ADWD.

There are some pretty powerful shared themes here. Both are being offered a substance meant to induce visionary experiences. Bran believes he sees veins and blood in his paste, and starts out noting a bitter taste. Dany, too, is initially turned off by the inky appearance of what she's offered and notes that it tastes foul and spoiled.

This is a really good point! Actually when I was rereading this it seemed familiar, and I assumed it was just because, well I've read this chapter many times before! But now I think that I was actually unconsciously comparing it to Bran's experience. I wonder if shade of the evening is actually made from weirwood too?

The key difference seems to be that Bran's experience will result in a permanent change, while Dany doesn't ever seem to show any long term effects from her use of shade of the evening.

I'm not sure that Bran is changed permanently by eating the paste, or at least I hope he is not... I bet he will need to eat more weirwood paste to have the kind of experience he had before - which was basically like the power he already had, but given a big power boost.

It seems like a last ditch effort to get something for all the frustration and time spent in this strange city.

To me it seems more like she put off going to the house because it's the riskiest option. Better to exhaust all the safer avenues first.

They promise her the same thing Quaithe does: answers and truth, but what Dany gets is a jumble of things she doesn't have the knowledge to understand, fuel for her paranoia, and visions which will become clear in time.

I agree. She does get truth, but not answers.

I can't escape the feeling that some of what's going on in the House of the Undying is bending, if not breaking, the fourth wall. Some of it just seems to be for the benefit of the readers more than Dany. I have yet to encounter a satisfactory explanation for why she's shown a glimpse of the Red Wedding (the second clue we readers get), an event she'll neither see and when she receives news of it, it'll be pretty far in the past.

Why should every event she see neccessarily be directly relavent to her? I always considered it more like in LOTR - "some things which were, some that are, and some that have not yet come to pass..." You are right that the RW stands out as teh event shown her that has the least direct relavence to her.

I do wonder if she was shown that with the possibility that she might put a stop to it. I always assumed that Dany would head to Westeros much sooner than she did - that she could potentially arrive well before tRW happens. She might even ally with Robb, and in doing so possibly prevent the tragedy. Anyway wild speculation, but there's one reason it could be a reason she's shown it.

Even after my most recent reread of the series, and having read this chapter alone multiple times, I'm not sure I understand the true motives of the warlocks and Undying. Pyat Pree seems especially eager for her to enter the House of the Undying, and it's hard to tell how sincere he is in his instructions to her.

It's really weird, I agree I don't really understand. It seems like his instructions were entirely correct, so we can probably assume he was sincere.

I think Pyat is a zealot, and whatever the undying tell him to do, he'll do it. That's enough motivation for him. What the undying themselves want is another question. Maybe the Undying can get really, really powerful / add many more years to their life if tehy suck the life from someone as inherently "magical" as Dany. Or maybe it was Drogon they wanted.

After the visions of Westeros being savaged and the Red Wedding, there's a long scene featuring the house with the red door in Braavos, the only real place she'd had a sense of home. Her old guardian, Sir Willem Darry is there, as are all the old memories of the lemon tree and the details of the house. We're told her heart "aches with longing" and she wanted to take Darry's hand "as much as she had ever wanted anything." The house with the red door is a theme and memory that's strongly repeated for Dany throughout the entire series, and it always represents that feeling of home that she never quite knew.

I was struck by how Dany speaks of Darry is very similar to the way she expresses her feelings towards Ser Jorah - she even calls them both her bears! I do think her longing for home is an vital part of her character, and (IMO) a big part of why she is so despondent in Meereen. She feels she is in a complete morass and will never reach her house with the red door (aka The Red Keep as of her dragon dream in agot).

It's almost as if the Undying are trying to dissuade her from conquest by making her believe that she can return to that time and just be happy and comfortable again.

Hmm I think it's just another trick the undying use to try to snare her. If anything, conquest will allow her to finally have the home she wants.

Just as she's about to give in, she catches herself and realizes that Darry has been dead for a long time and the house with the red door must remain in her past.

And perhaps her future...

If their goal is to take the life from her, as they attempt to do before Drogon burns down the House, are they so confident that it doesn't matter if she sees these things? These three sets of three visions and their accompanying titles are some of the most significant in the series and seem tailored to her in a way that other visions in the House were not.

I don't think it hurts them in any way to tell her. Most of these visions have noting to do with them and presumably would never affect them. I am not sure the Undying are purely conscious beings, but may in some way simply be conduits for magical prophecy telling. It may be they cannot help but to tell Daenerys the prophecies relavent to her any more than they can stop their floating heart beating. That is their purpose, even if their goal is to steal her life.

Speaking of Drogon, he seems to be quite a good bullshit detector in this chapter. He's bothered by the appearance of the House of the Undying from the outset, and his reactions at several points help to warn Dany of danger and call her attention to an attempt to hurt her. Without the dragon, she might well have never made it out of the House of the Undying.

It's interesting. This chapter seems to show a dragon at his most intelligent. Later, they seem to be much more bestial and less intuitive - though that could simply be a product of the fact that they have begun to hunger for human flesh, so it's rather difficult to see past that. It did seem that Dany began to "communicate" with Drogon at this sort of level at the very end of her last chapter (she and he are on the same page about where to go and what to do). And Viserion I think had a "moment" with Quentyn before his brother roasted him.

Why only four dwarfs? Don’t they represent the five kings? Which king is missing – Stannis? Or had Renly died by now?

Renly has died by now this point, yes. The four kings are now Robb, Joff, Stannis, and Balon IIRC.

Have the threes already happened or are they yet to come? For example: “three fires must you light.” If these are already underway, the burning of MMD would be one for certain, the one for life. I almost wonder if the fires, mounts, and treasons all refer to men that she will partner with.

I've begun to think that "the mounts" are literally mounts (silver, Drogon, ???). Silver was to bed, Drogon to dread (she'll ride him into battle I suppose), and ??? to love. If "the mounts" are lovers it doesn't really work. She's already bedded three men and none of them I think are "to dread" or "to love."

Is the corpse Jon Snow or Victarion? After ADWD, I am unsure. Or perhaps it refers to the grey plague that is almost certainly going to spread through Westeros?

I had an idea that the corpse could be Jon Con. He's got grey scale after all, and unlike Victarion he's much more likely to "smile sadly." The greygoy = smile sad thing is clever but I dont' really buy it. After all Dany actually saw the corpse on the ship smiling sadly - to her it was a vision, not words.

Does the white lion refer to Tyrion, or to the lion that Drogo gave her the pelt of?

Gotta be Tyrion IMO. Though on the other hand when is he going to be in the Dothraki sea (maybe he and Jorah will go in search of her after reaching Meereen)? And how exactly is Tyrion "taller than a man?" (maybe a reference to that Jon chapter when he first meets Tyrion?)

Interesting to see the crones kneeling and finally understand what it refers to

Perhaps. I hope they get it over and done with quickly if this means something that will actually happen. I hope she tears their so-called "culture" to ribbons. If she is the stallion that mounts the world, I hope she shows the crones that they really ought to fear her, as the crone did when she read the prophecy to Dany. Fear her not because she will bring chaos and destruction upon all the world, as they'd assumed, but that she will STOP the Dothraki from committing atrocities. That is something to truely fear if you are a Dothraki Matriarch.

[Sevumar]

If I had to guess, I'd say it's just fortune telling. I suppose that all or most of their power is derived from that of the Undying themselves. i didnt' get the impression that Pyat ever used stealth magic or anything like that.

I'm inclined to agree that they don't seem to have a large range of power, but it makes me wonder what Euron wants with them and why he'd become a habitual shade of the evening drinker.

This is a really good point! Actually when I was rereading this it seemed familiar, and I assumed it was just because, well I've read this chapter many times before! But now I think that I was actually unconsciously comparing it to Bran's experience. I wonder if shade of the evening is actually made from weirwood too?

It could well have some weirwood-derived ingredient. The only thing we're told that's in it for sure is the leaves of the trees outside the HotU. The door to the chamber of the Undying is made of weirwood and ebony too, like the one at the temple of the Many Faced God in Braavos.

I'm not sure that Bran is changed permanently by eating the paste, or at least I hope he is not... I bet he will need to eat more weirwood paste to have the kind of experience he had before - which was basically like the power he already had, but given a big power boost.

Something about the text suggested that this was a point of no return, but that could equally be from the training he's receiving or the paste.

Why should every event she see neccessarily be directly relavent to her?

It's framed in the book as her experience, her chance to get some knowledge, so I think it's reasonable to wonder what the tie is to her since she's the frame through which we're seeing all this. So much of the rest of the experience seems keyed to her past, future, hopes, and fears that I think it's a decent question. I'm not sure if there was anything she could've done to stop it, but it really seemed like something that was there more for the reader than her based on what we know now. That may change, of course.

It's really weird, I agree I don't really understand. It seems like his instructions were entirely correct, so we can probably assume he was sincere... I think Pyat is a zealot, and whatever the undying tell him to do, he'll do it. That's enough motivation for him. What the undying themselves want is another question. Maybe the Undying can get really, really powerful / add many more years to their life if tehy suck the life from someone as inherently "magical" as Dany. Or maybe it was Drogon they wanted.

I think Pyat seemed genuinely surprised and unprepared by what happened in the House and that suggests that maybe he didn't know everything the Undying had planned. I wish we'd gotten more about how the warlocks and the Undying interact.

It's possible that they wanted Dany's life force, since they seem to try to tempt her with several things designed to appeal to her personality and desires, and then try to suck the life out of her. If there's one thing that's for certain in the story, it's that nobody takes the Drogon!

I was struck by how Dany speaks of Darry is very similar to the way she expresses her feelings towards Ser Jorah - she

even calls them both her bears!

It is interesting that she uses the same term for both, but I think Darry's comes from the fact that he was gentle and comforting, and one of the few stable things in her early life. There's a lot less about Jorah that's gentle or comforting in the physical sense. He was certainly a reassuring presence in the Dothraki Sea and in their journey through the Red Waste, but it's easier to call him a bear because of his family's sigil.

I do think her longing for home is an vital part of her character, and (IMO) a big part of why she is so despondent in Meereen. She feels she is in a complete morass and will never reach her house with the red door (aka The Red Keep as of her dragon dream in agot).

I agree with you about the longing for home. I'm not entirely sure if the house with the red door is necessarily symbolic of the Red Keep. I tend to think it's more of a longing for a time and a place that was comfortable and safe. that's why I mentioned the past. It's also a longing for a time when things were simpler and she was (blessedly) ignorant of the threats to her safety. That part she won't get back, but I think if she survives the series, she will have the satisfaction of having a physical home that truly belongs to her.

I don't think it hurts them in any way to tell her. Most of these visions have noting to do with them and presumably would never affect them. I am not sure the Undying are purely conscious beings, but may in some way simply be conduits for magical prophecy telling. It may be they cannot help but to tell Daenerys the prophecies relavent to her any more than they can stop their floating heart beating. That is their purpose, even if their goal is to steal her life.

I hadn't really given much thought to the idea that the Undying might be compelled to give up their information to seekers who reach them. Viewed in that light, the first parts of the House almost seem calculated to weed out unwary or unworthy seekers. It makes them a bit like an oracle and a bit less of a force unto themselves.

It's interesting. This chapter seems to show a dragon at his most intelligent. Later, they seem to be much more bestial and less intuitive - though that could simply be a product of the fact that they have begun to hunger for human flesh, so it's rather difficult to see past that.

It could be that they have some capacity for intelligence, but that it needs to be cultivated. People who are not socialized as children and who don't grow up around other humans become much more wild and "bestial" than they might otherwise. Obviously, dragons probably wouldn't have much of a range, but there could be something like this going on.

Another possibility is that Drogon is really good at reading Dany's subconscious reactions and acting on them before she's aware of them or able to herself.

I've begun to think that "the mounts" are literally mounts (silver, Drogon, ???). Silver was to bed, Drogon to dread (she'll ride him into battle I suppose), and ??? to love. If "the mounts" are lovers it doesn't really work. She's already bedded three men and none of them I think are "to dread" or "to love."

I tend to agree about the mounts meaning actual things to be ridden. The "bride of fire" cluster of visions later on seems to be a better candidate to refer to husbands or lovers.

Perhaps. I hope they get it over and done with quickly if this means something that will actually happen. I hope she tears their so-called "culture" to ribbons.

I'm not a big fan of Dothraki culture either, but I wonder if she could be the person who starts them on the path to reunion with their Lhazareen cousins. The two seem to share a common origin, and the Dothraki seem like a relatively new arrival (about the time of the Doom if Jorah's story in ASoS is right).

[The Lost Lord]

I believe the blue and cold Un-dying/un-dead are connected to the Others. This could shed some light on the mysterious total absence of the Others from any of Dany's visions in the HOTU, the bizarrely written motiveless strangeness of the Undying, and the awfully convenient luck that Dany gets to hear all these tips about the future.

I've begun to think that "the mounts" are literally mounts (silver, Drogon, ???). Silver was to bed, Drogon to dread (she'll ride him into battle I suppose), and ??? to love.

There's a convincing thread speculating that Ghost is the mount to love.

The greygoy = smile sad thing is clever but I dont' really buy it. After all Dany actually saw the corpse on the ship smiling sadly - to her it was a vision, not words.

It is in the "bride of fire" section where Drogo and Jon are both represented metaphorically, so why wouldn't the corpse be metaphorical as well? The corpse (a Drowned Man), the grey lips smiling ("grey joy"), and the ship -- combined with our knowledge that Vic and Euron are both currently plotting to marry her -- together all seem to indicate it's one of them.

[mrazny]

I had an idea that the corpse could be Jon Con. He's got grey scale after all, and unlike Victarion he's much more likely to "smile sadly." The greygoy = smile sad thing is clever but I dont' really buy it. After all Dany actually saw the corpse on the ship smiling sadly - to her it was a vision, not words.

I'm not sure i'd say the smiling sadly is Victarion either, and the JonCon could be more important, but as far as how to interpret the dream, I'd lean more towards the riddle being unwound by converting what you see to the wording, and read into the wording than just plain physical description is just a physical description.

It's framed in the book as her experience, her chance to get some knowledge, so I think it's reasonable to wonder what the tie is to her since she's the frame through which we're seeing all this. So much of the rest of the experience seems keyed to her past, future, hopes, and fears that I think it's a decent question. I'm not sure if there was anything she could've done to stop it, but it really seemed like something that was there more for the reader than her based on what we know now. That may change, of course.

Although the more likely path is just a vision for the reader type small lapse from GRRM, it's also a reasonable possibility that she is being shown some of the horror's that are happening-going to happen in Westeros as it relates to the strife that she's tangentially involved with. She will be wrapped up in the atrocities in Esos, still thinking of Westeros pretty much in terms of "Mine" and a squabble between lesser men with lesser claims, but not in terms of people suffering in Westeros yet.

Thin, but unless I missed something, her return to Westeros has been colored more as her Right, and she would be a Better ruler, not as Westeros Needs her.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Thin, but unless I missed something, her return to Westeros has been colored more as her Right, and she would be a Better ruler, not as Westeros Needs her.

The idea that she would be a better ruler is, I think, tied closely (in her mind at least) to the idea that Westeros needs her.

Westeros needs a ruler that 1) everyone can agree on, 2) brings justice/rules well.

In my opinion (I know not one shared by all) Dany is actually in an excellent position to achieve 1. Dragons are a super-potent symbol and in Westeros all but signify the right to rule. I think this trait of the dragons will be more important to her conquest than their actual worth in battle. Further, if Dany has shown any strong leadership trait it's in her ability to inspire loyalty as a royal symbol. Even those who hate her and want to destroy her don't deny that she is queenly and her person inspires respect and loyalty. It seems quiet likely to me that if she lands in Westeros at pretty much any time, she will bring a large portion of the populace to her side simply by virtue of her strength as a symbol of "real" rulership in this age of many kings all with questionable claims.

The second is something Dany hopes to achieve at this point but she has had some severe stumbling blocks in terms of execution. Still I think it's better to want to hold justice as an important virtue in rulership than otherwise.

[tze]

The idea that she would be a better ruler is, I think, tied closely (in her mind at least) to the idea that Westeros needs her.

Westeros needs a ruler that 1) everyone can agree on, 2) brings justice/rules well.

In my opinion (I know not one shared by all) Dany is actually in an excellent position to achieve 1. Dragons are a super-potent symbol and in Westeros all but signify the right to rule. I think this trait of the dragons will be more important to her conquest than their actual worth in battle. Further, if Dany has shown any strong leadership trait it's in her ability to inspire loyalty as a royal symbol. Even those who hate her and want to destroy her don't deny that she is queenly and her person inspires respect and loyalty. It seems quiet likely to me that if she lands in Westeros at pretty much any time, she will bring a large portion of the populace to her side simply by virtue of her strength as a symbol of "real" rulership in this age of many kings all with questionable claims.

I honestly think that if Dany had headed to Westeros back in ACOK, or at least by ASOS, this would all be accurate. But after what she went through in ADWD, and what's happened in Westeros in the meantime, I really don't think GRRM is setting Dany up as the savior of Westeros at all.

Dany's inspired a ton of loyalty in her freedmen by freeing them from slavery. Pretty much all of her military victories relied on slaves rising up and coming over to her side. But she can't copy that strategy in Westeros, not just because there are no slaves, but because we've been told again and again that the smallfolk only really care about who can feed them. Dany's only had two methods of feeding her people: 1) plant crops and wait (obviously no longer an option in Westeros), or 2) conquer an enemy city and take all its food (the initial reason she went after Meereen was to feed her followers). But Dany can't exercise Option 2 in Westeros for obvious reasons: any city she sacks in Westeros will be another city she has to feed as Queen of Westeros. It's like feeding yourself by eating your own arm. And after she gets to Westeros, she'll have a lot of trouble buying or trading for food from Essos, since the slaveholding cities there will hold a massive grudge. Pentos is being set up as a problem (via the Tattered Prince, and lord knows what Dany's going to do to it once she finds out about how Illyrio let her and Viserys be beggars just so Aegon could be protected). Braavos is the best option, but they loathe dragons.

And there's winter itself. Have Dany or her followers ever experienced a true winter, such as they're going to encounter in Westeros? I really doubt they have. The continent of Essos is much farther south than Westeros (based on the maps we've seen, it looks like Braavos, which seems like it's on the topmost tip, is closest to White Harbor), and the last winter in seventeen years was short and mild even in Westeros. Throughout ADWD, GRRM emphasized how incredibly hot it was in Meereen and Volantis---this, as full-blown winter was hitting Westeros. Dany's Unsullied (and the Dothraki, if she gets them on her side), not to mention her freedmen, won't be accustomed to fighting or foraging in several feet of snow, let alone massive blizzards; we saw what happened to Stannis's knights in an early winter blizzard in the North. To feed her army, Dany's going to have to take from the lords and the smallfolk, leaving both to starve and destroying any "champion of the people" reputation Dany could have built had she come in autumn.

As for the lords, Dany hasn't really encountered a feudal system in Essos comparable to Westeros. Most of the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay seem to be closer to oligarchies, not feudal systems. Meereen hadn't had a king in a thousand years. Volantis elects its triarchs, Braavos elects its Sealord, Prince of Pentos is primarily a ceremonial role. Dany hasn't really dealt with a place that relies on a vast and intensely complicated system of landed knights, lords, and Lords Paramount, with different lords ruling different areas and reporting to higher ranking lords who report to higher ranking lords who eventually report to the King/Queen, with family ties and historical grudges that Dany knows nothing about. As a leader, the closest thing to a nobility that Dany's encountered was the nobility of Meereen, whose duties, status, and structure were vastly different from the nobility structure of Westeros. And Dany wasn't ruling through the Great Masters, she was ruling around them.

And dragons are a symbol of terrible destruction---they're synonymous with the Field of Fire, the burning of Harrenhal, etc. I don't think people in Westeros will look at Dany's dragons and think they symbolize a true "queen of the people," not when the realm is starving. The dragons will be taking food from the people (and possibly eating the people themselves) and burning down people's homes---terrible PR, especially after all the realm has already suffered.

Basically, she's a daughter of the Mad King, she's bringing creatures who will cause terrible destruction to the already-ravaged country, and she has no experience in how to deal with a savage winter. She doesn't really have any experience with a feudal system, so she won't know how to interact with (and rule through) the various lords of Westeros. Her campaigns in Essos will probably have defeated any shot she had of trade with Essosi cities, so her chances of feeding the country---the only real way she'll have of currying support from the smallfolk---will be slim to none. Dany's pretty good at brutally sacking cities (and her followers are going to expect sacking privileges in Westeros), but remember how Tywin's savage sack of King's Landing pissed off the city so much that, even seventeen years later, the people of King's Landing still hate the Lannisters? If she can't feed the people, and if her army is actually taking what little food the people have left (which seems likely), then I can't see any way for Dany to copy her "messiah of the oppressed" role in Westeros.

Given all this, I'd be very, very surprised if all of Westeros agrees on Queen Dany. She doesn't know winter, which won't endear her to the Northmen. She's the Mad King's daughter, and everyone (even his supporters) seemed to hate Aerys. The Targaryens just aren't the symbol of unity they were three centuries ago. And her Essosi campaigns have made her a lot of enemies there which will make it very, very hard for Dany to forge the necessary trade relationships that will be vital to feeding the realm throughout the winter. Frankly, and I know others will disagree, but I just don't think Westeros needs Dany nearly as much as Dany believes.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I'm inclined to agree that they don't seem to have a large range of power, but it makes me wonder what Euron wants with them and why he'd become a habitual shade of the evening drinker.

It's pretty useful to be able to see the future.

It is interesting that she uses the same term for both, but I think Darry's comes from the fact that he was gentle and comforting, and one of the few stable things in her early life. There's a lot less about Jorah that's gentle or comforting in the physical sense. He was certainly a reassuring presence in the Dothraki Sea and in their journey through the Red Waste, but it's easier to call him a bear because of his family's sigil.

Daenerys is quite clearly comforted by Jorah's presence at this point. She comments on this constantly. His physical presence is to her very gentle and comforting so I'm not sure what you mean by saying he's less physically comforting than Darry (of whom we get no description other than that he is her dear old bear and she wants to run to him and hug him - sounds similar to the ending of adwd actually). Dany certainly never feels threatened by Jorah despite his large size, rather she always feels affectionate towards him. In my opinion, her feelings towards him are like those towards a trusted uncle or father (at least right now). I think this is part of why she's initially so freaked out when he kisses her - It would almost feel incestuous...

It may also explain why she doesn't feel remiss in being physically (though not in her view sexually) affectionate with him.

I agree with you about the longing for home. I'm not entirely sure if the house with the red door is necessarily symbolic of the Red Keep. I tend to think it's more of a longing for a time and a place that was comfortable and safe.

Well it explicitly was that in her dragon dream. I think that quite clearly signified a transformation from a longing for her past home in Pentos, to her longing for her future home in Westeros. She makes the same choice again with Ser Darry...

I think if she survives the series, she will have the satisfaction of having a physical home that truly belongs to her.

I agree.

It could be that they have some capacity for intelligence, but that it needs to be cultivated. People who are not socialized as children and who don't grow up around other humans become much more wild and "bestial" than they might otherwise. Obviously, dragons probably wouldn't have much of a range, but there could be something like this going on.

In general I see what you mean, but Dany gives great care and attention to her dragons until she gets to Meereen, spends a lot of time with them, teaches them, etc. In Meereen they fly off to hunt on their own. And then suddenly they eat kids?

It seems more like puberty than lack of training to me.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I honestly think that if Dany had headed to Westeros back in ACOK, or at least by ASOS, this would all be accurate. But after what she went through in ADWD, and what's happened in Westeros in the meantime, I really don't think GRRM is setting Dany up as the savior of Westeros at all.

You bring up some good points but I think you're a bit too pessamistic.

She can't copy that strategy in Westeros, not just because there are no slaves, but because we've been told again and again that the smallfolk only really care about who can feed them.

I don't think this is true. Food is certainly one thing they care about, but the following have also been shown to be extremely important:

religion - the sparrows and religious pilgrims were motivated by spiritual matters as well as terrestrial ones. The targaryen kings always followed the seven, and the smallfolk may see her as that type of messiah (assuming she doesn't get too involved with the red god - she hasn't yet, but she may).

safety from harm - The smallfolk have strong feelings of hatred towards those who murder them (duh). If Dany can bring justice to the Boltons or the Lannisters or the Cleganes she can inspire loyalty (see Stannis). It would only take a few dramatic examples of her dragons eating brigands to bring the smallfolk behind her and to see the dragons as powers for good rather than destruction.

perception of "immorality" or "rightness" - Joff and Cersei are first accosted by smallfolk saying he was bastard and she was a brotherfucker. Then Cersei was hated because of adultery during her walk. Dany can appeal to this for the reasons I stated to begin with.

And after she gets to Westeros, she'll have a lot of trouble buying or trading for food from Essos, since the slaveholding cities there will hold a massive grudge.

I think slavery is through in Essos. She's started something unstoppable and the call for freedom is spreading like wildfire. These new governments are natural allies to Daenerys though it will probably take some time to become established.

To feed her army, Dany's going to have to take from the lords and the smallfolk, leaving both to starve and destroying any "champion of the people" reputation Dany could have built had she come in autumn.

It's possible she could bring a ton of forage with her but I think you have a valid concern here. On the other hand if she can end the war quickly then the people would actually have more food than they would if she had not come at all (since everyone's armies could finally go home). This assuming she arrives while there is still civil war in Westeros.

As for the lords, Dany hasn't really encountered a feudal system in Essos comparable to Westeros.

Feudalism is not a terribly difficult concept to grasp, nor is it very different than what she's already dealt with. Ultimately, you have a bunch of assholes with armies who are out to become as rich and powerful as possible at the expense of pretty much everyone else.

And dragons are a symbol of terrible destruction---they're synonymous with the Field of Fire, the burning of Harrenhal, etc. I don't think people in Westeros will look at Dany's dragons and think they symbolize a true "queen of the people," not when the realm is starving.

Some people will have that opinion, but I'd guess more people - common and noble - put stock in the other 299 years of peaceful/fruitful Targ rule than the few chaotic events that occurred during a war 300 years ago. It's sort of like saying everyone would hate another Stark because the kings of winter were apparently assholes.

Much of it of course will have to do with how she uses her dragons - as a last resort and only against armies, or indescriminately burning everything. I'd say the former is much more consistent with what we know of the character (and not to mention it would be incredibly stupid to do the latter).

The dragons will be taking food from the people (and possibly eating the people themselves) and burning down people's homes---terrible PR, especially after all the realm has already suffered.

Um what makes you think she's going to let her dragons burn indescriminately and destroy smallfolk homes? This goes against everythign we just read in these last chapters and IMO bears no resemblance to her character.

Her campaigns in Essos will probably have defeated any shot she had of trade with Essosi cities, so her chances of feeding the country---the only real way she'll have of currying support from the smallfolk---will be slim to none.

Well that's pretty pessimistic! I'd say that she will have very strong connections to Essos before she's through sicne she'll have been the cause of the liberation of the majority of the population of the continent.

Also I contest hte idea that the smallfolk only care about food. Thats' not really borne out by the text.

Dany's pretty good at brutally sacking cities (and her followers are going to expect sacking privileges in Westeros), but remember how Tywin's savage sack of King's Landing pissed off the city so much that, even seventeen years later, the people of King's Landing still hate the Lannisters? If she can't feed the people, and if her army is actually taking what little food the people have left (which seems likely), then I can't see any way for Dany to copy her "messiah of the oppressed" role in Westeros.

We have been told explicitly that Dany has no intention of brutally sacking anything in Westeros (see my recap of teh 2nd Clash chapter for details). And what followers of hers are going to be "expecting sacking priviledges"? The entire point of getting the unsullied is to avoid this. Her freedmen want nothing more than to be allowed to settle and live in peace, just like the people of Westeros. And there's absolutely no reason to believe she would let her few dozen Dothraki sack anything she doesnt' watn sacked.

She will avoid pissing people off like Tywin did by not being like Tywin. It's not that difficult.

Given all this, I'd be very, very surprised if all of Westeros agrees on Queen Dany. She doesn't know winter, which won't endear her to the Northmen. She's the Mad King's daughter, and everyone (even his supporters) seemed to hate Aerys.

Of course not all Westerosi will instantly agree on Queen Dany. I'm saying she has some very real advantages over the other candidates due to her dragons, her uncontested bloodline and the fact that she's disconnected from teh current politics in the realm. Backing such an outsider candidate could be very attractive politically.

And there's actually not much solid evidence from the text that "everyone" hated Aerys. In fact we have some of the opposite - Arya meets a man who wishes for the good ol' days and people don't really argue with him when he says things were better under king Aerys. The fact is most Westerosi don't even know or care that he was an insane tyrant.

The Targaryens just aren't the symbol of unity they were three centuries ago. And her Essosi campaigns have made her a lot of enemies there which will make it very, very hard for Dany to forge the necessary trade relationships that will be vital to feeding the realm throughout the winter. Frankly, and I know others will disagree, but I just don't think Westeros needs Dany nearly as much as Dany believes.

[mediocre cheese]

perception of "immorality" or "rightness" - Joff and Cersei are first accosted by smallfolk saying he was bastard and she was a brotherfucker. Then Cersei was hated because of adultery during her walk. Dany can appeal to this for the reasons I stated to begin with.

I think its unlikely that Daenerys is going to appeal to the anti-brotherfucking constituency. Considering that her parents were siblings.

[mrazny]

The idea that she would be a better ruler is, I think, tied closely (in her mind at least) to the idea that Westeros needs her.

Westeros needs a ruler that 1) everyone can agree on, 2) brings justice/rules well.

This was an interesting set of asides about the potential of Dany's rulership, that said I don't think the visions were going for that in support for or in argument against her merits. The visions seemed to be more about Truths, and her interactions with people than a projection of her future role.

What I meant about Red Wedding is now removing our knowledge base, am I forgetting a portion of the story to this point where in Dany's particular world it was brought up that Westeros was in true peril? I thought it was primarily some fluffing "that the people await the return of their true targaryen rulership", and that the motivations to this point were more about rights. Now the Usurper is dead and a civil war is imminent, but much of the talk is still about the military ramifications of this, not neccesarily the fate of the commoners within a civil war though of course that could be implied.

I do want to say that within Dany's experiences that the Red Wedding vision is the first truly awful thing she's exposed to about Westeros besides the events of her father's death and sack of KL by Tywin.

The Sack and Aerys' killings are a vengence/birth rights motivation. The Red Wedding is an extreme consequence of what the Game of Thrones causes.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think it unlikely that Daenerys is going to appeal to the anti-brotherfucking constituency. Considering that her parents were siblings.

lol well I guess I always assumed that the incest taboo doesn't apply to Targs in the minds of the Westerosi. They're held to different standards it seems in many ways.

[ARYa_Nym]

Cersei created a potential problem by rearming the faith.

The Faith Militant uprising was a general rebellion by the militant orders of the Faith of the Seven against the rule of House Targaryen over the Seven Kingdoms.

In 37 AL, upon the death of King Aegon I Targaryen, the faith has made it's objections to the ascension of Aenys Targaryen to the throne, as he was born out of incest, a sin in the eyes of the Seven. When Aenys took the throne anyway, the armed wing of the Faith of the Seven - the Faith Militant - launched an uprising designed at unseating the Targaryens from power.

King Jaehaerys I Targaryen offered an immediate amnesty on pain of the Faith Militant's disbanding, which was accepted.

I don't think they will be a problem by the end of the series but surely in the next book and maybe for some of the last they will be.

[tze]

I don't think this is true. Food is certainly one thing they care about, but the following have also been shown to be extremely important:

religion - the sparrows and religious pilgrims were motivated by spiritual matters as well as terrestrial ones. The targaryen kings always followed the seven, and the smallfolk may see her as that type of messiah (assuming she doesn't get too involved with the red god - she hasn't yet, but she may).

safety from harm - The smallfolk have strong feelings of hatred towards those who murder them (duh). If Dany can bring justice to the Boltons or the Lannisters or the Cleganes she can inspire loyalty (see Stannis). It would only take a few dramatic examples of her dragons eating brigands to bring the smallfolk behind her and to see the dragons as powers for good rather than destruction.

perception of "immorality" or "rightness" - Joff and Cersei are first accosted by smallfolk saying he was bastard and she was a brotherfucker. Then Cersei was hated because of adultery during her walk. Dany can appeal to this for the reasons I stated to begin with.

I'm remembering back to the King's Landing riots, where the smallfolk were shouting for Stannis and Robb and Renly, until finally they were all shouting for bread---all the Kings were forgotten, and "King Bread" ruled the day. Also, the Tyrells' popularity stemmed in large part from the fact that they fed King's Landing (while conveniently forgetting who cut off the food supply in the first place).

As to the religious and morality issues, I honestly don't think Dany will win points there. Dany's never struck me as an intensely religious person, and remember how she prayed to the Seven and to the Dothraki Horse God when entering the House of the Undying? And if she takes up R'hllor, the High Septon will have a fit. And as AverageCheese points out, Dany is a child of incest, and there are plenty in Westeros who apparently believe that the 7 allowed the Targs to get knocked down in the first place because they flouted divine law. (Not to mention, the Old Gods prohibit incest but the Targs never got any special dispensation from them, like they did from the Faith.)

More than that, the Faith of the Seven seems very misogynistic. One of the reasons for the original Dance of the Dragons was supposedly that people didn't like the idea of a ruling queen, that "ancient Andal custom" forbade the crowning of a woman over a man (and the Faith came to Westeros with the Andals). The Faith provides roles for women as maidens, mothers, and crones---but Dany doesn't really fit that mold. Not to mention, look at how she publicly carried on an affair with Daario. She wasn't discreet, and her whole court knew she was screwing him. The High Septon made a Queen of Westeros walk naked through the streets just for sleeping with a man out of wedlock (not adultery, since Robert was dead, and the incest thing hasn't been proven or admitted to yet). If Dany has another affair (either with Daario himself, or with someone else like him), then Dany will be persona non grata to the High Septon and to the newly re-armed Faith. To me, Dany seems to have been set up to clash with the Faith (especially as Aegon, who was instructed by a septa for a while, will probably be their darling).

As to bringing justice, who's going to be left by the time Dany gets to Westeros?

I think slavery is through in Essos. She's started something unstoppable and the call for freedom is spreading like wildfire. These new governments are natural allies to Daenerys though it will probably take some time to become established.

This has been discussed many times elsewhere, so I'll just say this: slavery seems far from finished in Essos. It's going to take a lifetime to eradicate slavery, and we only have two books left.

Feudalism is not a terribly difficult concept to grasp, nor is it very different than what she's already dealt with. Ultimately, you have a bunch of assholes with armies who are out to become as rich and powerful as possible at the expense of pretty much everyone else.

To me, Dany's ruling style seems opposed to the very idea of feudalism: she tends to micromanage, insisting on dealing with all of Meereen's petitioners herself, to the point where she has no time to even deal with her dragons. She doesn't delegate power, has army captains but no real Small Council, and certainly names no Hand. And the entire idea of feudalism is that different lords control different areas of the realm; that's not a concept Dany's dealt with, and all of her experience with ruling has dealt with power as a centralized force. She doesn't really have experience ruling over people with their own personal armies that answer to them before answering to the crown. (The Great Masters of Meereen have wealth and had slaves, but it doesn't look like they had smallfolk they could conscript into an army, like a Westerosi lord could.)

And one of the main problems potential Westerosi rulers have faced is the fact that the Seven Kingdoms are very different from each other; what works in the Stormlands won't work in Dorne, what works in Dorne won't work in the Iron Islands, what works in the Iron Islands won't work in the Westerlands, what works in the Westerlands won't work in the North. The only way around that is to just let the various lords do their thing, and Dany seems like too much of a micro-manager to really allow that.

Some people will have that opinion, but I'd guess more people - common and noble - put stock in the other 299 years of peaceful/fruitful Targ rule than the few chaotic events that occurred during a war 300 years ago.

But was it really 299 years of peace? It sounded like the Targs' rule was filled with war, from the early wars with the Faith, to the wars with Dorne, the Dance of the Dragons, the multiple Blackfyre rebellions, etc., etc. And it was only 300 years. Westerosi Houses pride themselves (accurately or not) on ruling for milennia. Three hundred years is like a hiccup to them.

Um what makes you think she's going to let her dragons burn indescriminately and destroy smallfolk homes? This goes against everythign we just read in these last chapters and IMO bears no resemblance to her character.

When you attack a city, the smallfolk get hurt. And I don't think we can assume that Dany can necessarily keep the dragons from destroying smallfolk's homes. The thing about fire is that it spreads.

We have been told explicitly that Dany has no intention of brutally sacking anything in Westeros (see my recap of teh 2nd Clash chapter for details). And what followers of hers are going to be "expecting sacking priviledges"? The entire point of getting the unsullied is to avoid this. Her freedmen want nothing more than to be allowed to settle and live in peace, just like the people of Westeros. And there's absolutely no reason to believe she would let her few dozen Dothraki sack anything she doesnt' watn sacked.

Yeah, but that was back in ACOK, before she started brutally sacking cities in ASOS. Dany's last chapter of ADWD seemed to have her embracing what it means to be a dragon. If she gets more Dothraki on her side, they're certainly going to want to plunder. If she allies with the Ironborn, same there. Ditto for sellsword companies. As for her freedmen, I disagree that they wouldn't want to plunder. Pretty much everyone wants to plunder.

And there's actually not much solid evidence from the text that "everyone" hated Aerys. In fact we have some of the opposite - Arya meets a man who wishes for the good ol' days and people don't really argue with him when he says things were better under king Aerys. The fact is most Westerosi don't even know or care that he was an insane tyrant.

I think we have to disagree there. Everyone calls him "the Mad King", from Dorne to the Wall. I think there was a reason that Barristan told Dany that people would welcome Rhaegar's sister, yet never told her that people would welcome Aerys's daughter.