Others vs Wall

[Eyron]

Black Crow, I keep thinking about that too. It is driving me nuts...

My guts says Mance is a descent guy, all honourable in his own badass way. But what you say is true, it's very suspicious all of it.

Why have the free folk not had more trouble with the White walkers as they call them? One would think it was cold enough for them to roam free in the Thenns, the Ice river and the rest of the remote north, for a long time now. Considering how superior their weapons and adaptation to the environment are the free folk should have been decreasing rapidly, since they don't have obsidian weapons (as far as we know).

The Others must have a very different agenda than what we are led to believe. To me it seems they were herding the free folk south, not trying to annihilate them... And the NW on the Fist of First men were standing in their way as you say. And by some random luck Jon was not there...

Heh, maybe the Others are sort of a Watch too, and they wanted to contribute with some fresh troops to the force at the Wall, to defend it from the south :)

[kissdbyfire]

Haven't the Others been dormant for ages? And by 'ages' I mean some 8,000 years?

[Eyron]

Sam found some more recent reports IIRC, not dating 8000 years back since they were written down at the time of events. (Black Crow would know for sure :))

And Craster had been sacrificing to them for a while in the most recent time.

The free folk had trouble with them before the NW did, further north, if what they say is true of course.

[zmandacorrupt]

The bit about the night's watch staying true is important, however, I do not think they've crossed the line yet. Jon agreed that the Night's watch wouldn't get involved with Ramsay but he himself still wanted to go, which still isn't allowed, technically they were executing a deserter, albeit unconventionally. The soldiers of the night's watch that do worry me are the guys at Craster's Keep, any confirmation on what happened to them?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

The wildling conspiracy? On the other hand, I didn't doubt Tormund's story about his son, and Ygritte and Varamyr seemed frightened enough.

[kissdbyfire]

Sam found some more recent reports IIRC, not dating 8000 years back since they were written down at the time of events. (Black Crow would know for sure :))

And Craster had been sacrificing to them for a while in the most recent time.

The free folk had trouble with them before the NW did, further north, if what they say is true of course.

Well spotted, I'd completely forgotten about Craster's sacrifices. But isn't it possible he was sacrificing his male offspring to the Great Other (or whatever name the supreme entity has) while the Others were dormant? Maybe even the sacrifices - along with other things - are what has brought them back, or awakened them?

ps: I don't remember it being specifically mentioned that the wildlings were having troubles with Others or whights, but again, it could be because they have been awakened recently, maybe...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

just to clarify that, there are Others and there are Wights, the later being reanimated corpses that serve the former. So unless Wightyfing means an Other going to town on Wight having some necrophilia fun and you just happen to be there enjoying the show "asking" him questions, that may be indeed very difficult.

to wightify = verb, an Other killing somebody and raising his corpse as a wight :cool4:

[kissdbyfire]

The bit about the night's watch staying true is important, however, I do not think they've crossed the line yet. Jon agreed that the Night's watch wouldn't get involved with Ramsay but he himself still wanted to go, which still isn't allowed, technically they were executing a deserter, albeit unconventionally. The soldiers of the night's watch that do worry me are the guys at Craster's Keep, any confirmation on what happened to them?

Oh, I think they have crossed the line. In fact, when they stabbed Jon they had already crossed it, IMHO. To me, they became untrue when they murdered the Old Bear...

[Eyron]

The wildling conspiracy? On the other hand, I didn't doubt Tormund's story about his son, and Ygritte and Varamyr seemed frightened enough.

Yeeeessss, welcome to the Paranoia Extravaganza! :D

I am a bit suspicious and critical by nature, and these books aren't helping I tell you...

Seriously though, something is up with the Others that does not fit with the "exterminate mankind" agenda.

[tze]

If the Horn of Joramun is that broken horn that Ghost dug up at the Fist (and was taken by Sam, the guy from Horn Hill), then I assumed the purpose of the attack at the Fist was to get control of the horn in order to bring down the Wall. Maybe that's why it was buried with a cache of dragonglass weapons? I.e., perhaps the person/creature who buried the horn knew the Others would be coming for it, and included the dragonglass weapons for that eventuality.

Maybe some sort of pact existed between the Others and the First Men---maybe even between the Others and the Starks---that's unknowingly been broken? (A la the pact between the Children and the First Men, made at the Isle of Faces, a pact which we know has been broken.)

I totally agree that the Others' agenda seems more in line with herding the humans rather than annihilating them. Tormund tells Jon that the Others/wights "never came in force" and merely "nibbled along the edges" of Tormund's group during the trip to the Wall. Why not attack in force? Why just allow more humans to get through the Wall, and thereby strengthen their enemies? And look what happens when the Others encounter Ser Waymar Royce:

The pale sword came shivering through the air. Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

The Others could have slaughtered Royce in seconds, yet the group stands back and watches while only one of them actually fights. Why? I got the impression that this was some sort of test and Royce failed. (Maybe because Royce didn't take his vows before a weirwood tree, any magic that was imbued in the Watch by its founder(s) didn't apply to him, and the Others didn't see him as a "true" Watchman?)

It seems like the only way we'll get a true recounting of what really happened during the War for the Dawn will be if someone can read those "runes on rock" that Sam mentions. It's possible that Sam will find some sort of Rosetta Stone for runes at the Citadel. And don't the Thenns consider themselves the last true First Men left? We know they don't even speak the Common Tongue (which was brought by the Andals), so if anyone can read runes, it's our darling Sigorn.

[Queen Regent]

I fear the wall will in the end fall. I really hope it doesn't, but that is my prediction.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I like the herding idea, it makes sense, even though what they hoped to achieve is a mystery. Smash the wildlings against the wall? Maybe they feel crowded and just want some space!

The wildlings being in cahoots with the Others seem a bit far-fetched, though. A wildling conspiracy on a very small scale... I guess? But, in general, my feeling is that the free folk seem just as scared of the Others and wights as the NW is.

[kissdbyfire]

I like the herding idea, it makes sense, even though what they hoped to achieve is a mystery. Smash the wildlings against the wall? Maybe they feel crowded and just want some space!

The wildlings being in cahoots with the Others seem a bit far-fetched, though. A wildling conspiracy on a very small scale... I guess? But, in general, my feeling is that the free folk seem just as scared of the Others and wights as the NW is.

Herding humans... Why? To what end? To me, the more obvious 'they are evil and want to whightify (sp?) everyone and their dog' makes more sense...

[tze]

Herding humans... Why? To what end? To me, the more obvious 'they are evil and want to whightify (sp?) everyone and their dog' makes more sense...

Maybe they just want the humans out of their territory? I can't see GRRM writing about a purely evil group. That seems antithetical to what he's been doing for five books.

[Eyron]

Maybe some sort of pact existed between the Others and the First Men---maybe even between the Others and the Starks---that's unknowingly been broken? (A la the pact between the Children and the First Men, made at the Isle of Faces, a pact which we know has been broken.)

Maybe some Starks (before they were called Starks) went north of the Wall, and one (Bran the builder) stayed south.

The Others could have slaughtered Royce in seconds, yet the group stands back and watches while only one of them actually fights. Why? I got the impression that this was some sort of test and Royce failed. (Maybe because Royce didn't take his vows before a weirwood tree, any magic that was imbued in the Watch by its founder(s) didn't apply to him, and the Others didn't see him as a "true" Watchman?)

It seems like the only way we'll get a true recounting of what really happened during the War for the Dawn will be if someone can read those "runes on rock" that Sam mentions. It's possible that Sam will find some sort of Rosetta Stone for runes at the Citadel. And don't the Thenns consider themselves the last true First Men left? We know they don't even speak the Common Tongue (which was brought by the Andals), so if anyone can read runes, it's our darling Sigorn.

I like the idea that they were testing Ser Waymar... I thought maybe they wanted to know what kind of weapons these puny humans had nowadays. And they were happy with the outcome of that expedition. But there could be something to the vow being said before the weirwoods to, it did not effect them attacking Sam though.

Good idea about the runes! It's something Sam could learn in the Citadel, so he has business there besides confronting his father and being part of Citadel scheme...

[kissdbyfire]

Maybe they just want the humans out of their territory? I can't see GRRM writing about a purely evil group. That seems antithetical to what he's been doing for five books.

Yes, I agree it would be different from how he has given all other characters more layers, no one else is 'a cardboard villain. But maybe they are one exception, maybe they are just evil. Or, as you say, it could be that they just want humans out of their turf. I have to read more about the Long Night and the Battle for the Dawn; but wouldn't the actual building of the Wall seem to indicate that they must be kept north of the Wall to prevent an invasion?

[mediterraneo]

I did never think the Others could be anything but the Westeros equivalent of the "scary end of the world badass inhuman thinghs race" but it indeed is strange in this novel: he does not have a "racist" style (good elf, industrious dwarves, cowardly goblins, ugly orcs, and on).

But there are a lot of things I did not understand of this, at least at first reading.

One thing I noted was that Melisandra couldn't sell me her used car on the shadow being a light product.

But even that, even a reversed polarization between who the goods and the evils are and appear is still a polarized simplification unfit in this fantasy novel.

In any case, and regardless of their motives, these "peoples" kill people and revive them later as aggressive zombies.

I don't care if they really want to save the ecosystem from the terrible action of the humans and or the dragons, they are out to catch me! I'm scared!

I have to admit that I'd like to understand better what are they trying to do and why.

Definitely, this thread added a question to answer, to me...

I read something about various citations of Robert Jordan in the book...

Apart from a GRRM hint that he will not end this series and he knows it, and given the fact that we started seeing characters able to see and interact with scenarios and people far in time and space, I'm starting to ask myself if, when Bran was told in his first pages that he could still be a Bran the Constructor, the thing could be quite literal, as with the "rebirth" of AA and so much of the things appeared in the first book.

Sure it is just late night stupidity, but... but it is also off topic, I just realized.

By the way, I hope it is not true.

[Chalais]

I think the Wall was in the process of falling as per Jons last POV, the Others no doubt have some means of keeping an eye on things since they're last attack happened when the Wall was at it's weakest.

What's the odds that during the 'Civil War' that the Others will attack in force and mop up?

[kissdbyfire]

I read something about various citations of Robert Jordan in the book...

Apart from a GRRM hint that he will not end this series and he knows it,

What hint are you talking about? :-(

[Black Crow]

Well spotted, I'd completely forgotten about Craster's sacrifices. But isn't it possible he was sacrificing his male offspring to the Great Other (or whatever name the supreme entity has) while the Others were dormant? Maybe even the sacrifices - along with other things - are what has brought them back, or awakened them?

Craster wasn't sacrificing them. His sons are White Walkers.