The Official Appreciation Thread for The Queen in the North, Sansa Stark

[brashcandy]

This is... really not true. Sandor purposefully frightens Sansa many, many times, and constantly uses his physical strength and size to intimidate her. He mocks her, talks down to her, and calls her an fool and a child and a parrot. The first encounter they have he corners her against the wall and forces her to look at his scars. I do not think you can legitimately read what Sandor Clegane actually says and does to her and call it "dignity" and "kindness", at least not as a whole. There are a few moments when he is more gentle but in general he is rough, rude, forceful, intimidating, and frightening. You could call his behavior honest, however, which to Sansa is I think quite a bit more valuable than dignity or kindness would be.

It was dignity in the sense that Sansa never felt defiled in his company, or experienced the same kind of mental and physical anguish that she felt around others like Joffrey and Cersei. She didn't have to strip off her clothes like she did with Tyrion, or as she is now having to sit on LF's lap for his special pervy times. Sandor stood by her when she needed assistance with the lie to Joffrey about Dontos, he said "Enough" when she was being beaten by the knights, and he refused to join in with Joff when he was asked to recall some insensitive remark he had made at Winterfell. Saving her from the riot in KL was all about ensuring that her dignity as a young girl wasn't violated. Sure, his mockery may appear harsh, but it's really a minor thing in the grand scheme of events. Sandor's "kindness" may be hard to read, but in comparison to the way she was treated by others, his actions and words did allow her some sense of security in a very volatile place.

I think she has eroticized their encounter, and this has caused her to reevaluate some of her feelings of terror for other... equally frightening feelings. However she remembers him, if you read her reactions at the time they are fearful, with occasional gratitude for the times when he actually is kind to her (when he wipes her lip, when he saves her from the crowd, etc).

Hmmm, I think she has eroticized one encounter, which was the Blackwater scene, definitely not the sum total of their experiences together. Everything that the Hound told her, her own experiences have validated, and she thinks of him not with fear or loathing, but as a protector and perhaps a potential ally. Sansa, in fact, never actually focuses on his mocking jibes. She certainly thinks that Joffrey and Cersei believe she is stupid, but I don't think she believes Sandor truly felt that about her.

[Sunni]

I think she has processed the information, but truly, Sansa was more afraid for her own life in that scene to pay due attention to what Lysa was ranting about. I think she knows perfectly well that LF is a dangerous man capable of really awful things, and that's why she's careful around him. At the same time, she is fascinated by his machinations, and how he is able to turn situations that appear hopeless to his advantage. Sansa understandably is attracted to this kind of power because it is precisely what she lacked in KL.

Sansa also knows that Littlefinger, for ill or for good, is her protector until her circumstances change. In some ways her situation hasn't changed that much from when she was in KL. She's still isolated with no one to trust. I like Sansa... the declawed wolf, deep in lion territory. I always wished that she'd see some good in Tyrion while they were married/together. At one point in the Vale she remembers that he was kind to her. I don't think she's ever realized how many people were urging him to rape her. I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

[brashcandy]

Sansa also knows that Littlefinger, for ill or for good, is her protector until her circumstances change. In some ways her situation hasn't changed that much from when she was in KL. She's still isolated with no one to trust. I like Sansa... the declawed wolf, deep in lion territory. I always wished that she'd see some good in Tyrion while they were married/together. At one point in the Vale she remembers that he was kind to her. I don't think she's ever realized how many people were urging him to rape her. I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

Well, it's probably because both she and Tyrion were extremely miserable in that marriage, and that she and Sandor actually seem to like each other, and have chemistry.

[Erinne]

I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

Actually there are some Tyrion/Sansa shippers, not as many as those who ship SanSan, but they do exist.

[Jamie Lannister]

I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

Well, the circumstances are different. Really different. She was forced into a mock-marriage with a repulsive dwarf lacking half a nose. She just... doesn't feel anything other than revulsion for him, physically not least of all. She saw him as the enemy, too, remember; she put up a wall of courtesy coated in ice when dealing with her little husband. She could not flee him quickly enough -- there was nothing there for her, and Tyrion knew it too.

Sandor's a different beast. There are some subtle hints to her having a very primal form of attraction to him, like when she instinctively cups his face in their last meeting, how she misremembers the level of their intimacy before he ripped his cloak off... or how she can't go a chapter without thinking about him.

[ZacharyB]

I've never liked SanSan because I couldn't see them working out if they ever got serious. Sandor doesn't seem like the type who would want to be in a relationship. He might now, assuming he's alive, but still..

ETA: *Prepares for the wrath of the SanSans*

[1234567]

I've never liked SanSan because I couldn't see them working out if they ever got serious. Sandor doesn't seem like the type who would want to be in a relationship. He might now, assuming he's alive, but still..

ETA: *Prepares for the wrath of the SanSans*

Ah the wrath begins..... :devil:

Seriously though you raise a good point. Sandor is emotionally crippled and although I think time on the QI may help with rage and personal development issues, he is still at a teenage level of understanding when it comes to girls and relationships, in the same way that Tyrion does his whole lets play make believe with a prostitute thing. I do think Sandor does want a relationship, although the only evidence I have for this is when he received his White Cloak and took a while to mull it over and before agreeing, seemed to bitterly note that he didn't have a wife or lands to forsake. How Sandor would actually handle the day to day ins and outs of getting along with someone would be interesting to see.

[Alexia]

I've never liked SanSan because I couldn't see them working out if they ever got serious. Sandor doesn't seem like the type who would want to be in a relationship. He might now, assuming he's alive, but still..

ETA: *Prepares for the wrath of the SanSans*

For what its worth, I'm a SanSan fan but mostly in the "one night stand" sense. I don't want to see them together permanently, more like hot sex before Sandor's tragic death and then Sansa remembering him forever as the great love of her life...

But nonetheless, Sansa's awesome even without her romantic entanglements and there's a SanSan thread active for this!

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

It was dignity in the sense that Sansa never felt defiled in his company, or experienced the same kind of mental and physical anguish that she felt around others like Joffrey and Cersei. She didn't have to strip off her clothes like she did with Tyrion, or as she is now having to sit on LF's lap for his special pervy times. Sandor stood by her when she needed assistance with the lie to Joffrey about Dontos, he said "Enough" when she was being beaten by the knights, and he refused to join in with Joff when he was asked to recall some insensitive remark he had made at Winterfell. Saving her from the riot in KL was all about ensuring that her dignity as a young girl wasn't violated. Sure, his mockery may appear harsh, but it's really a minor thing in the grand scheme of events. Sandor's "kindness" may be hard to read, but in comparison to the way she was treated by others, his actions and words did allow her some sense of security in a very volatile place.

My point is that reading those actions and words as kindness is rather absurd. His mockery is anything but kind.

Call his words what they are - cynical, amoral, even envious. His most generous actions are those of inaction (not beating her, not letting her be raped) which isn't saying much. Indeed, The Hound is driven to his mockery by the fact that Sansa provokes him with her very nature - with her beliefs in righteousness and goodness. He envies this and wants to destroy it, to grab her and shake her until she understands there are no true knights. The fact that she will not accept this frustrates him greatly and leads to the climactic encounter where he finally decides the only way to show her is to steal her innocence himself. Of course he can't go through with it because in the end Sansa's innocence and rightness is stronger than Sandor's cynicism.

He did save her on numerous occasions, which she finds quite surprising at the time. I wouldn't exactly call this kindness... And it's not as if "not as bad as Joffery and Cersei" or "doesn't join in beating up 13 year old" are great commendations.

And like I said, his cynical attitude is precisely what Sansa needed to hear and see. So he did her a service in the end.

Hmmm, I think she has eroticized one encounter, which was the Blackwater scene, definitely not the sum total of their experiences together. Everything that the Hound told her, her own experiences have validated, and she thinks of him not with fear or loathing, but as a protector and perhaps a potential ally. Sansa, in fact, never actually focuses on his mocking jibes. She certainly thinks that Joffrey and Cersei believe she is stupid, but I don't think she believes Sandor truly felt that about her.

That's the encounter I meant. Her eroticization of that encounter has colored her remembrances of him.

And my point is that Sansa focuses on Sandor's negative behavior whenever he is with her. Fear is all she can think about - her predominating feeling in his presence is that of fear, terror, and loathing for his attitude. Her reactions are mostly of shock that a knight could be so cruel, mocking, and frightening.

This is in stark contrast to her thoughts regarding him when he is not with her, which are much more positive. There, she focuses on his protectiveness towards her, his weaknesses (crying, fear of fire), the safety he made her feel, etc.

[brashcandy]

He envies this and wants to destroy it, to grab her and shake her until she understands there are no true knights. The fact that she will not accept this frustrates him greatly and leads to the climactic encounter where he finally decides the only way to show her is to steal her innocence himself. Of course he can't go through with it because in the end Sansa's innocence and rightness is stronger than Sandor's cynicism.

He did save her on numerous occasions, which she finds quite surprising at the time. I wouldn't exactly call this kindness... And it's not as if "not as bad as Joffery and Cersei" or "doesn't join in beating up 13 year old" are great commendations.

What exactly are you referring to here? At which point did he decide to steal her innocence? I do think his behaviour in comparison to the other louts around him - considering these louts are his employers - is remarkable and commendable, but hey, that just my opinion. If you're thinking that the BBB scene was some attempt to steal her innocence as in to rape her, well that's a common perception but a misreading in my view. Sandor was a shattered man that night, and I don't believe raping her was ever on his mind. He wanted comfort, and came to the only place he thought he could get it. It's rather sad and pitiful, but he shouldn't be demonised as some would be rapist.

That's the encounter I meant. Her eroticization of that encounter has colored her remembrances of him.

Yeah, agreed. However, when you really think about it, the encounter was erotic all on it's own. Sure Sansa has now added in the unkiss, but there's also the touching of his face to consider. It's not as though the eroticization of the scene is somehow evidence of trauma on her part.

And my point is that Sansa focuses on Sandor's negative behavior whenever he is with her. Fear is all she can think about - her predominating feeling in his presence is that of fear, terror, and loathing for his attitude. Her reactions are mostly of shock that a knight could be so cruel, mocking, and frightening.

This is in stark contrast to her thoughts regarding him when he is not with her, which are much more positive. There, she focuses on his protectiveness towards her, his weaknesses (crying, fear of fire), the safety he made her feel, etc.

But this is only to be expected, MDIND. Of course she feels somewhat frightened around him because he's a very scary man, but what really counts is how she feels when he's not there. If she was so terrorized by him she would not have been wishing that he was there in place of Illyn Payne, or when she had to go with Margaery. It is really telling that she desires his company both in times when she herself is feeling confused and in fear. Also, he's the one person that she speaks to directly, and doesn't hide being icy courtesy.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I do think his behaviour in comparison to the other louts around him - considering these louts are his employers - is remarkable and commendable, but hey, that just my opinion.

It's great, yes! Better than nothing. I'm not a Sandor hater at all, though he does get a bit weepy for my tastes. :P

I was pretty much reacting specifically to your use of the word "kind" as not quite fitting either the character, or Sansa's perception of the character.

If you're thinking that the BBB scene was some attempt to steal her innocence as in to rape her, well that's a common perception but a misreading in my view. Sandor was a shattered man that night, and I don't believe raping her was ever on his mind. He wanted comfort, and came to the only place he thought he could get it. It's rather sad and pitiful, but he shouldn't be demonised as some would be rapist.

Interesting!

My interpretation is that Sandor did intend to rape Sansa in that room, but couldn't go through with it. This comes from a few pieces of evidence - first off, he did push her onto a bed and hold a knife to her throat. These are the first steps if rape is what he intended. At the very least he intended to frighten her - to make her believe he intended to rape her.

Second of all, it's the natural progression from how he's been treating Sansa throughout a Clash of Kings. He clearly was annoyed by Sansa's innocence, and he wanted to disabuse her of her girlish notions. He's constantly trying to make her believe that her ideas of knights and honor and chilvalry are lies. He's constantly mocking her, telling her there are no knights, that all men are evil, and knights the worst monsters of all, that everyone loves to kill as much as he does. He wants to prove to her that innocence is no protection against monstrosity - that the strong will always win. His attempt to rape her was going to show her once and for all that she can't live in a dream world anymore.

And, of course, he is wrong. That is what Sandor learned when Sansa sang her song to him. Her innocence and purity did protect her from his monstrosity.

I don't think it's fair to call this a "misreading".

But this is only to be expected, MDIND. Of course she feels somewhat frightened around him because he's a very scary man, but what really counts is how she feels when he's not there. If she was so terrorized by him she would not have been wishing that he was there in place of Illyn Payne, or when she had to go with Margaery. It is really telling that she desires his company both in times when she herself is feeling confused and in fear. Also, he's the one person that she speaks to directly, and doesn't hide being icy courtesy.

I think both her feelings when she is with him and when she is not should "count" just as much. Why should we say Sansa's feelings at one time are more legitimate than her feelings at another? Both are real.

I think that you know I don't ship SanSan, but I don't deny that she has some vague attraction towards him. But I think it's also fair to say she's repulsed by him as well.

[Maester Hodor]

I <3 Sansa. One of my favorite characters in the book!

[brashcandy]

It's great, yes! Better than nothing. I'm not a Sandor hater at all, though he does get a bit weepy for my tastes. :P

I was pretty much reacting specifically to your use of the word "kind" as not quite fitting either the character, or Sansa's perception of the character.

When I first used the word "kind" I was careful to qualify it as Sandor's special brand. He doesn't act in a kindly manner to her personally, but he does do kindly things.

Interesting!

My interpretation is that Sandor did intend to rape Sansa in that room, but couldn't go through with it. This comes from a few pieces of evidence - first off, he did push her onto a bed and hold a knife to her throat. These are the first steps if rape is what he intended. At the very least he intended to frighten her - to make her believe he intended to rape her.

Second of all, it's the natural progression from how he's been treating Sansa throughout a Clash of Kings. He clearly was annoyed by Sansa's innocence, and he wanted to disabuse her of her girlish notions. He's constantly trying to make her believe that her ideas of knights and honor and chilvalry are lies. He's constantly mocking her, telling her there are no knights, that all men are evil, and knights the worst monsters of all, that everyone loves to kill as much as he does. He wants to prove to her that innocence is no protection against monstrosity - that the strong will always win. His attempt to rape her was going to show her once and for all that she can't live in a dream world anymore.

And, of course, he is wrong. That is what Sandor learned when Sansa sang her song to him. Her innocence and purity did protect her from his monstrosity.

I don't think it's fair to call this a "misreading".

MDIND, I don't know where you're getting this from :) A natural progression to raping her? Sure he is disdainful of her innocence, but he never appeared to want to rob her of it. It's one of the things that actually attracts him to her. He tells her the truth about knights because he wants her to wise up. He knows this kind of naivete is dangerous, and that she won't survive long if she's relying on "true knights" to rescue her. Sandor isn't even the one who finally knocks this into Sansa's head. I think the full harsh truth is brought home to her that day when Joffrey orders her to be beaten and stripped, and all the other Knights, and lords stand around and let it happen. You'll remember that Sandor is the one to state "Enough" and he gives her his cloak to cover her nakedness. He is very sympathetic to Sansa's ordeal throughout ACOK, despite his mocking mannerisms. He isn't trying to tear down her resolve, but rather to build it up.

As for her innocence and purity protecting her from his monstrosity, well, sure, but you're missing the point here. It was never about attacking her purity, but rather her naivete. He likes that she's a lady in fact.

I think both her feelings when she is with him and when she is not should "count" just as much. Why should we say Sansa's feelings at one time are more legitimate than her feelings at another? Both are real.

I think that you know I don't ship SanSan, but I don't deny that she has some vague attraction towards him. But I think it's also fair to say she's repulsed by him as well.

I'm saying that her feelings when she's with him are not overwhelmingly of fear so much, but rather there's a lot of confusion mixed in there too. Why is he so harsh? Why is he so angry? Fear, but also a willingness to dig deeper. When she's not with him, her feelings reveal that she actually desires his protection, his company. So one state sheds light on the other. If she was fearful in his presence to the point of abject terror, then we would never see this longing on her part. To end, she is definitely not repulsed by Sandor, the man. She may be repulsed by his anger, but she's attracted to the man she sees beneath it.

[Sunni]

Woman of War, have you read ACOK &amp; ASOS? If you have, then I am frankly puzzled over these statements. Throughout those 2 books - in the first one with Sansa - Sandor changes remarkably. He's still the same snarky, rough man he always will be, but he genuinely seems to come to care about something (Sansa's wellbeing) besides his own misery. He was the only member of the KG that didn't hit her, and I don't think he ever would have even if Joff's command wasn't fulfilled by Dontos. He protected her and saved her on numerous occasions, and GRRM always points out that he handles her "gently" or "not ungently". How you can claim that this man would then turn around and abuse Sansa if they were together is beyond me. In ASOS we also see through his interaction with Arya that whilst he may look mean and say mean things, and is even capable of doing very awful things, he isn't the type to pick on the weak and powerless. Sandor is not the kind of man to go about indulging in evil for evil's sake. I figure that most of his wicked deeds, if not all, have taken place under Lannister employment. He doesn't go about raiding and raping women for sport, neither does he seem to take pleasure in sadistic pursuits like beating them either. You may benefit from taking a closer look at his character, and not investing so much meaning to that one statement which is belied by his actual actions in dealing with Sansa.

<p>Still, Sandor hit Arya in the head with an ax. Ok, she was running into the Red Wedding, and it was the FLAT side of the ax, but still. Not gentle. I think Sandor is much changed by his time in the Quiet Island (or wherever it is that Brienne sees him and Stranger). The Elder Brother says he "died" but I'm thinking that it's more like The Hound died and was reborn, since the Elder also says he, himself "died" as well.</p>

One poster said they thought Arya and Sansa might lose their identities during the game of thrones. I don't agree. Sure they're growing up, but I don't think either Sansa or Arya will lose their essential identity. They are both wolves, but Sansa is a lady and Arya is a warrior. They both seem very consistent in that way. Sansa is still nurturing and compassionate (towards Sweet Robin, for instance). She thinks about courtesy and her clothing (it's not just vanity either, she has to look a certain way to fulfill her role. Not too Tully, not too highborn, not like she's striving to take over the Vale). She's becoming a considerate hostess and she's learning how to stay alive.

[Skeksi]

I really didn't like Sansa in AGOT- I mean, she's pretty much the typical teenage girl, so blinded by her love for the pretty prince that she overlooks the fact he's a massive dick :P She's still not one of my favourite characters, but she's definitely growing on me, and she's definitely interesting to read.

I think Sansa is, first and foremost, very real. As I've said, there's a lot of the "stereotypical teenage girl" about her at first. She's had a pretty nice, easy life- she's been brought up to believe that one day she will be married to a highborn lord or prince, run his household and bear his children, and seems pretty happy with her outlook on life. She's not a rough and tumble fighter, or a ruthless politician (though I think she may develop into this later at some point). She's a teenager whose happy, rose tinted worldview falls to spectacular pieces, and ends up in the grip of the horrible, abusive little turd that is Joffrey, and she spends the next few books just trying to survive and get by. She doesn't have magical powers or sword fighting skills, she is just a normal young girl, and I think she's interesting to read for that reason.

Since Sandor and Littlefinger seem to have featured heavily in the conversation so far:

Re Sandor: I've expressed my dislike of SanSan as a ship elsewhere- just to recap briefly, one of my main issues with it, other than the "I should have raped and murdered her before leaving her for the Imp..." thing, which is a biggie, is the fact that when they are together, Sansa is mostly afraid of Sandor. I reread the Blackwater scene, and literally, she is terrified for most of it. When he goes to kiss her, he smells, he's clearly drunk, she closes her eyes and wants it to be over. Now, when he's not there, she idealises him, misremembers the kiss/ non kiss, etc. but then, he's pretty much the best of a bad bunch that she's been surrounded by for books. He scares her, but he looked out for her, too. That doesn't change the fact that however she remembers it, at the time she was genuinely afraid for her life. Not good. Not something a relationship should follow. Let her find a nice guy who loves her, and who doesn't scare her.

Re Littlefinger: I think she knows Littlefinger is "not a good guy"- I mean, he admitted to being in on a plot to murder the king at his wedding feast, he filled Ser Dontos full of feathers in front of her, and he pushed Lysa out of the Moon Door. She remembers, too, that Littlefinger (who she separates from Petyr) is not her friend- in King's Landing, it was Tyrion who saved her from beatings, Sandor who saved her from the mob (and, I believe she also mentions Garlan Tyrell comforting her at her wedding), not Littlefinger. However, she has largely been around not nice guys this whole series, and a fair few of them have been quite willing, even eager, to hurt her. Littlefinger, for the time being at least, is a bad guy whose plans involve keeping her safe and hidden- he's got to look like a more appealing option at this stage! I also agree that she's slightly fascinated by his ability to come out on top, despite apparently lacking power- I can definitely see that being something she'd like to pick up on. Essentially, she's stuck with him, and quite frankly there's no better options at the moment, it's much easier to close her eyes to Littlefinger's less savoury schemes for now. That's my thoughts, anyway.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

When I first used the word "kind" I was careful to qualify it as Sandor's special brand. He doesn't act in a kindly manner to her personally, but he does do kindly things.

That's fine, I was explaining why this all came up. I don't believe you explained what you meant by that qualification in your original post. You stated he treated her with kindness and dignity, and I was reacting to that specifically.

MDIND, I don't know where you're getting this from :) A natural progression to raping her?

erm ...yep? I think I explained my interpretation pretty clearly. I think it's a consistent reading of the text.

Sure he is disdainful of her innocence, but he never appeared to want to rob her of it.

Can you describe what Sando would have to do to appear to want to rob Sansa of her innocence in your eyes?

I'd think from an outsider's perspective that physically threatening her with a knife and violating her person very strongly "appears" to have that motive behind it. As indeed does his disdainful attitude towards any hope she expresses, and his continual attempts to dissuade her of her "naive" notions.

As for her innocence and purity protecting her from his monstrosity, well, sure, but you're missing the point here. It was never about attacking her purity, but rather her naivete. He likes that she's a lady in fact.

I am not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between her naivete and her purity - to me these are the same thing. If he wants to destroy one, he wants to destroy the other as well.

It's one of the things that actually attracts him to her. He tells her the truth about knights because he wants her to wise up. He knows this kind of naivete is dangerous, and that she won't survive long if she's relying on "true knights" to rescue her.

Aha, but this is where I think we're getting confused.

I think that Sandor's statements to Sansa are deeply flawed. I think ultimately it is proven that she is right, not him. True chivalry can exist, and goodness can triumph over evil. He is of course correct that some knights are monsters whereas some monsters are more virtuous than some knights. That's the truth that is in Sandor's statements, and what is valuable to her. Appearances can be deceptive, and help can come from the most unexpected places.

The falsehood in his statements and actions are in his refusal to accept that innocence can triumph, that righteousness can win, and that some knights really are pure, and some causes really are righteous. When Sandor says that all knights love to kill just as much as he does, that is a lie he is telling himself just as much as he is trying to convince Sansa. He is afraid of Sansa's purity/innocence/naivete becuase it is so foreign to him. He has been cynical for so long, he has completely convinced himself that the world is entirely dark.

In the end, he doesn't tell her "the truth about knights". He tells her the truth about himself. He is practically confessing to her. He projects his monstrosity onto everyone else and tries to make her believe that everyone is as great a monster as he is. Which they are not - some are of course: I certainly don't deny that. In the end, Sansa shows him that he himself is not even as great a monster as he has made himself believe.

I'm saying that her feelings when she's with him are not overwhelmingly of fear so much, but rather there's a lot of confusion mixed in there too. Why is he so harsh? Why is he so angry? Fear, but also a willingness to dig deeper. When she's not with him, her feelings reveal that she actually desires his protection, his company. So one state sheds light on the other. If she was fearful in his presence to the point of abject terror, then we would never see this longing on her part. To end, she is definitely not repulsed by Sandor, the man. She may be repulsed by his anger, but she's attracted to the man she sees beneath it.

You stated that "what really counts" are her feelings when he is not there - that's what I responded to as being unfair.

I think we can both agree she is very confused. :)

[Sunni]

Still, Sandor hit Arya in the head with an ax. Ok, she was running into the Red Wedding, and it was the FLAT side of the ax, but still. Not gentle. I think Sandor is much changed by his time in the Quiet Island (or wherever it is that Brienne sees him and Stranger). The Elder Brother says he "died" but I'm thinking that it's more like The Hound died and was reborn, since the Elder also says he, himself "died" as well.

One poster said they thought Arya and Sansa might lose their identities during the game of thrones. I don't agree. Sure they're growing up, but I don't think either Sansa or Arya will lose their essential identity. They are both wolves, but Sansa is a lady and Arya is a warrior. They both seem very consistent in that way. Sansa is still nurturing and compassionate (towards Sweet Robin, for instance). She thinks about courtesy and her clothing (it's not just vanity either, she has to look a certain way to fulfill her role. Not too Tully, not too highborn, not like she's striving to take over the Vale). She's becoming a considerate hostess and she's learning how to stay alive.

[Lemon Cake]

I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

For me, it's mostly because I simply don't think Tyrion and Sansa are compatible. They're not each other's "type" at all. I don't think their marriage would have been a satisfying one even if it had been arranged under the best of circumstances; say, by two sets of loving parents who had their children's best interests at heart, and with both Tyrion and Sansa willingly consenting. They're just completely different people -- and not the type of "different" that would make an "opposites attract" romance possible, either.

I don't blame either of them for this. It's not Tyrion's fault. It's not Sansa's fault. It just is what it is.

But anyway, that's why I'm personally rooting for them to get an annullment. I don't think they could ever truly be happy together.

[ZacharyB]

Personally, during those chapters they were together, I was hoping Sansa would see the nice little imp that we all knew and loved. Despite how funny I thought it was when she wouldn't kneel down for him during the wedding ceremony, after awhile it just became torturous to watch. Now that she's ditched KL, I don't want to see them back together again though.

[No True Lady]

But that's not what he's saying. He isn't wishing violence on her because she married Tyrion. He isn't wishing violence on her AT ALL. He's lamenting that he couldn't have saved her, and that he left her for a fate worse than rape and murder.

The full text is:

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

He's regretting that he couldn't save her. Is he saying it in awful, bloody language? Yes.

Please remember that the entire time he is delivering this speech, he is crying his eyes out.

Wow, I never thought to interpret it that way. It's sort of a nice sentiment in its way (this is Sandor we're talking about - it's basically the best he can do). But the statement can still be viewed either way. Maybe one of these days we'll find out which way Sandor really meant it.

Also, has it ever occurred to anyone that one of the other reasons Sandor didn't/couldn't go through with raping Sansa is because he's a virgin? I know what you're going to say: Tyrion is deformed too but he doesn't have any trouble getting laid. Yes, but maybe that's yet another reason why Sandor hates Tyrion: He never sunk to the same level of self-loathing and self-pity that left Sandor emotionally and physically isolated.