The Official Appreciation Thread for The Queen in the North, Sansa Stark

[Hound's She-wolf]

Also, has it ever occurred to anyone that one of the other reasons Sandor didn't/couldn't go through with raping Sansa is because he's a virgin? I know what you're going to say: Tyrion is deformed too but he doesn't have any trouble getting laid. Yes, but maybe that's yet another reason why Sandor hates Tyrion: He never sunk to the same level of self-loathing and self-pity that left Sandor emotionally and physically isolated.

Varys told Tyrion that Sandor drinks and whores. So not a virgin.

And Tyrion has sunk to that level of self loathing and self pity.

[No True Lady]

Varys told Tyrion that Sandor drinks and whores. So not a virgin.

And Tyrion has sunk to that level of self loathing and self pity.

Oops, sorry. I've been reading the books too fast. And on the bus. The bumpy, bumpy bus.

But yeah, I am also a person who likes Sansa!

[Zmeischa]

I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

I can speak only for myself, OK?

I'd have loved to see her marriage work out, because I like her and I like Tyrion. I don't hope for it, because, well, there is nothing to hope for. It just does not work. Tyrion cannot reach out for her. She cannot see him as a human being, only as a cross to bear. That does not make a happy relationship. There is no dynamics in that marriage, they don't make a single step towards each other, but stay forever locked in their own separate unhappiness. It is a pity, but it is so.

Her relationship with Sandor is, on the other hand, a changing one, and it changes them both in the process. It is not the magical romance any girl could dream about, it is rough, violent, filled with bad language and mutual misunderstanding. But there is hope there.

[Zmeischa]

Also, has it ever occurred to anyone that one of the other reasons Sandor didn't/couldn't go through with raping Sansa is because he's a virgin?

No, he is not, it is mentioned in the series that he went to the whores. There is a popular belief that he has never been kissed, though :).

And - back to Sansa again :). At least partly, because I still want to talk about her relationships with Sandor. It has been mentioned quite a lot that he makes her feel a lot of very unpleasant emotions. But - is it neccessary a bad thing? Because Sansa has a way of coping with the horror of her situation - she denies and isolates her emotions. She becomes frozen, she retreats into herself, she starts loosing her personality. Those are, as I see it, much worse things then being scared. Sandor provokes her constantly, and by doing so he takes her out of her shell.

Naturally, lying in her bed, in the dark, with the sword, while being very drunk and covered in blood and vomit, cannot be called a good therapy :D. But I wouldn't call it a rape attempt either. That was more like hysterics.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think it was possible that Sandor wanted to rape Sansa, or at least considered it, when he ambushed her in her room. The important thing is, he stopped himself. What does not bode well for any future 'SanSan' shipping is that Sandor held a knife to Sansa's throat and terrorized her. What bodes well for their personal development is that both Sandor and Sansa were able to reach beyond the position of stalker and victim and reach a state of sudden calm, rather than having things escalate into something much less serene and much more violent. Sandor is a loose cannon; and Sansa is almost, and by necessity while a captive in King's Landing, too controlled. For a few minutes, Sandor was a human being acknowledging his own weakness and Sansa was a few years older in maturity and able to offer sincere, personal empathy as well as kindness.

I really don't know if there will be a 'SanSan' future protracted romance. Sandor will have to change, and not fly off the handle so readily; develop a little more control. And in two or three years, will he still have tender feelings for a 'little bird' who is no longer as innocent and naive as when he left her? Sandor reminds me a bit of Arya, if she were male, post-pubescent, and very large, and was not learning self-control as a Faceless Assassin Trainee. Arya, too, tended to resort to violence, or at least a physical response, when she felt angry or frustrated.

The one thing I do not think Sandor will lose; and this, I believe, is what Sansa prized most about him - he was honest with her and never misled or lied to her. She could always rely on him for honesty, sometimes brutal, sometimes more gentle; which was more than she received than anyone else in King's Landing.

I do think that they are going to meet again; but I doubt that they'll end up happily married and raising houndlings up North or in Castle Clegane...

I really, really hope that GRRM does not turn Sansa into Littlefinger Lite or Cersei Lite (or even Lysa Mark II). What worries me most is Sansa's capacity for self-deception, which seems to be something of a defense mechanism; she has got to find a way to see the world a little clearer, even when frightened, or she could well become a younger version of Cersei. Right now, she alternately admires Littlefinger as a father/teacher and is repelled by him as a seducer, yet parrots some of his ideas, those concerning the treatment of Robert Arryn, even in her thoughts. Is this happening because Sansa really has no one else to turn to (since she is just about to meet Myranda and Mya and not really close to them) than Littlefinger and nowhere else she can go, like Arya appearing to embrace the vocation of hired killer as she is being sheltered and trained by the Faceless Men? Sansa is also growing, during her time as "Alayne", widening her horizons and being pragmatic and not whiny about her sudden drop in social status; and thinking that 'Alayne' is 'bastard brave' and can do things that 'Sansa' could not; which is promising...

[Woman of War]

Sansa also knows that Littlefinger, for ill or for good, is her protector until her circumstances change. In some ways her situation hasn't changed that much from when she was in KL. She's still isolated with no one to trust. I like Sansa... the declawed wolf, deep in lion territory. I always wished that she'd see some good in Tyrion while they were married/together. At one point in the Vale she remembers that he was kind to her. I don't think she's ever realized how many people were urging him to rape her. I find it interesting that there's a host of people clamoring for Sansa to get with Sandor Clegane, but none hoping her marriage works out.

Good morning, I am awake and prepared for the next hot fight before work ( no, really I am the friendy feminist with good manners... :). :) )

I think it was totally impossible for Sansa to see anything good in Tyrion while they were "a married couple", not ony given the awful circumstances of the beginning. Tyrion was humiliated, bitter, an alcoholic. Sansa would have had to dig really deep to find his better qualities like empathy and compassion, although she had met those qualities in him some time before. He was not even an interesting dinner table talk anymore ( an unforgivable sin in a marriage imo ) Although he showed some of his better self when he did not rape her. Even if Tyrion had behaved well ( yes, I know, the beginning, don't tell me again....), she was simply too young in any sense for any relationship, not only for sex, with an older man.

Sansa was not yet able to value an interesting personality over her childhood ideals of beauty and knightly success, she may feel compassion but the erotics of a differenciated mind are stil beyond a thirteen year old. Given the fact that for about everybody's eyes Tyrion was obviously really ugly and physically definitely not a westerosi sex symbol, ( unlike Sandor for many, ohhh that body, sigh!, go on dreaming, girls - or boys ;) ) it would take a mature personality to be above that. Having been taught by your septa to see the good in everybody is only school lesson, a thirteen year old can never have the insight to see the truth in it. So Sansa did her best, failed understandibly and struck very lucky that Tyrion was not too drunk and still had his wits during the wedding to save them both from bedding and from "consummation".

And i am quite sure that Sansa would not have been the best choice for Tyrion as well. The wedding night: even if there had been the situation of a nicely arranged marriage westerosi style with both partners willing to close their eyes and to think of Westeros ( uurrrrgh ) what would they have had to offer each other erotically? A virgin that doesn't know anything about sex would not be Tyrion's first choice, he likes women who know what they are doing, though he might be a good teacher if he really wants. But this would have been love lost on Sansa, because a thirteen year old is simply too young for wicked sex, fortunately. She might enjoy vanilla sex with a boy her age ( hopefully with moon tea ) but she would have been incompatible with Tyrion. Both would have been unhappy even trying their best.

Now the other important part, all that tiny rest of a marriage: Ok, Tyrion will bathe regulary, not put his boots on the table, not spit on the floor and brush his teeth, civilised manners, which are imo essential for someone who grew up in upper or middle class circumstances if you share a household. Tyrion might even value nice curtains and harp music, depending on the lyrics......but their attitude towards life is so far fundamentally different. Sansa would have to become a lot more cynical and streetwise to laugh even at Tyrion's better jokes and Tyrion might learn about the difference between brutal sarcasm as self-defence and a subtle intelligent joke, but so far their sense of humour may be incompatible. During the time when they shared one household, both were deeply scarred, mentally and physically and, given the circumstances, not willing at all to console each other. This unwillingness to share their minds made the gap even deeper - hopeless at that moment.

To speculate about a future development is somewhat useless because if GRRM wants Tyrion and Sansa to be together he will write it that way. If he wants Sansa to have a hot one-night-stand with Sandor he will write that. And if he continues to be a good writer both will be credible.

There is a logic in the plot that Sansa and Tyrion might meet again, I do not see their marriage simply be annulled off screen without further comment. Either there might be a big drama about existing, future and failed twists of claims. Or both simply find another partner or they don't and stay alone without petty legal quabbling about annullment. If there is no no claim involved you can always find a drunken septon and declare yourself married again with someone else. If the other former partner does not care or even wishes you luck, where is the problem, no one will ask ten years later - if the protagonists survive at all.

Actually there is - and the romantic fangirls will hate me - a certain plot logic that Tyrion and Sansa might stay together. Sansa might be a totally different person then, mature, completely disillusioned and scarred, far beyond ideas of physical beauty and martial success. And Tyrion might have learned humility, found back to empathy, lost all he valued like social status and claims an found spiritual insight in contact with forces far beyond rational thinking - we can speculate but this is a possibility in the story.

So Sunni's ideas are not totally absurd. And this would definitely not qualify as so-called happy ending, because even then a relationship between the two would be extremely difficult and flawed , it would be the result of two deeply wounded individuals coming together, not exactly for love at first sight but out of free choice.

No love for both of them is at least as likely, for Sansa because she is so young and everything can come after the books have ended and for Tyrion because his story might as well lead into bitter loneliness on a hard and cold chair of power in any castle.

Enough fanfic, today I am obviously in a creative mode, I should go and do my job. Have fun slaughtering me .

[pansy25]

Sansa is like the fandom bicycle, people pair her with everyone, it gets a little ridiculous tbh. I don't mind though, it's always entertaining to find out what latest crackship people have come up with :lol:.

Its actually funny how they pair her off to Sandor. Thank God, GRRM is the author because this shipping will never happen. lol.

[voodooqueen126]

So awhile ago I mentioned on one of the Sandor Clegane threads that I asked a friend, who comes from a culture where arranged marriages are widespread and furthermore that doesn't really allow widows to remarry.

I described Sansa's scenario to him: her father murdered and her friend disappears, held hostage, beaten and abused, her brother and mother murdered, all by the same family then forced to marry the son of the man who organised the death of her mother and brother, the brother of the woman who betrayed her trust and allowed her to be abused, the uncle and supportor (Tyrion's help allows Joffrey to survive)of the boy who beat and abused her and murdered her father... and this man is marrying her for her claim so that he can seize her inheritance, she also suspects (quite rightly) that her father in law will murder her after she has given birth to a son.

My friend (RT) said that she had no duty to the husband, even though within traditional Hinduism duty towards a husband is a pretty major virtue, hence the lack of widow remarriage, in fact he thought that the girl would not be wrong to poison her husband in vengeance for her family.

Now their were flaws in asking RT: sure he's a Rajput,*but his mother was 23 when she got married and graduated year 10...Rather than voting for the BJP (Hindu nationalist party) RT votes congress, also he has studied the humanities and graduated from university. He is also in love with a girl from another caste. This harms RT's conservative credentials considerably.

So this time I repeated the above scenario to a person who is considerably more conservative than RT namely my partner (counting against him in the Conservatism scale is the fact that he is with me, my partner's sister was married to "A Joffrey" and my partner went to considerable effort to rescue her (he was successful in this): my partners widowed aunt/cousin wears colourful saris, jewellery and perfume nor does she shave her head): my partner either votes BJP or the local nationalist party. His aunt was married at the age of 13** and had her first child within the year, my partner's mother left school in sixth class (making her a 6th grader), the only reason smother-in-fact didn't get married at 13 (she was between the ages of 14-16** when she married) was because my partner's father wasn't a closer relative but a relative unknown... 12 is considered the minimum age for marriage, since that's when periods tend to begin, Rajasthani's who have been known to marry before puberty are considered squicky.

Partner's response: she has no duty towards the husband and she could probably kill him, in fact, even without the murder of her parents, disrespect towards her parents lessens the duty the daughter-in-law has towards her husband.

I am considering asking my partners best friend, whose mother got married and had her first child the year she turned 12***, what he thinks of the situation, but my partner doesn't think I should bother, since he is sure that his best friend will agree with "200%".

So there you have it: a guy whose is supportive of arranged marriages, unlikely to think of his uncle, best friend's father, and to a lesser extent his father (and presumably grandparents) as statutory rapists, and pretty conservative overall (did I mention the cousin who washes his hand if a white person shakes his hand? the fight we had when i put my foot on his shoulder) but still makes a pretty big distinction between arranged marriages and forcing your family's victim to marry you so that you can steal her inheritance.

So yeah.

* This chick was a Rajput: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roop_Kanwar

**husband's in question where 8 years older than their wives in both instances

*** this "ready to bleed ready to breed" attitude that I have been describing, was interestingly enough not shared by medieval Christians, or the denizens of Westeros.

[Zmeischa]

i agree that Sansa's "marriage" should not be an obligation to her. It was done when she was Lannisters' hostage, she was forced to it, her guardians never agreed to it, and, lastly (but the least of all) this marriage was never consummated. It can be debated whether Tyrion would be good for her, but there can be no "dibs!" in that matter.

BTW, her thoughts about Willas when she believed she will marry him may show us how arranged marriages can and do work. Sansa feel that it is her obligation to love any man she marries. A man and a woman are given the deal and make the best (or the worst) of it, and Sansa is prepared to make her best. She even forces herself to be a good wife to Tyrion, but that is where her goodwill ends - she cannot love him, and she doesn't try. It may be unfortunate, it may be lucky, but it's a given.

[Woman of War]

Voodooqueen, your post is extremely interesting, I will have to read it many more times until I understand the complicated links between all the persons in it. Although I know some Indians and their love-life problems, my difficulty in completely grasping your post shows ( apart form the possibility that my brain is too simply structured ) that the idea of marriage, kinship and duty is rather different throughout the world. Although I don't feel like a cultural relativist when it comes to gender politics, I am a good old conservative defender of human rights above ideologies, but there is simply no use in a debate for ignoring each others original vantage points and cultural background.

And I am not really sure if I understood correctly what you tried to say: that Sansa has no obligations towards Tyrion? Agree. That she has a moral right to murder him? Disagree.

In this series people kill each other off for many reasons and Sansa could start with that any time, like all the other characters she may go over to the dark side any moment.

I don't know if Sansa might have a special right to poison Tyrion - I think killing each other is a secondbest solution to marriage problems. But if she wanted to be free of that marriage, of course she has no obligations towards Tyrion, she can simply avoid to ever see him again, love whomever she wants, forgetting about Tyrion. She needs not be a widow for that. And living with your sweetheart even if still married to someone else may seem the lesser sin even to conservatives than murdering the husband who is in the way. Especially if the husband concerned would not make the new love difficult by becoming threatening. And I believe Tyrion would wish Sansa luck for her new life and wave goodbye, not without deep regret that he himself failed so miserably.

Throughout literature hatred between the two families of a couple has never been a handicap but often the extra spice in a relationship, Shakespeare might agree. This is a well known trope as well as abduction and beauty and the beast. So GRRM might surprise us with whatever twist in the story.

But I do not see any reason for irrational hatred between Sansa and Tyrion. In fact whatever consensual arrangement - staying together or leaving each other alone for good and forever - would definitely better for their sleep at night than murder - it usually is.

Well, maybe I am simply too reasonable for a complicated solution like murder.

Or too reasonable for chopping knife solutions - wrong books for me? No!

[voodooqueen126]

Voodooqueen, your post is extremely interesting, I will have to read it many more times until I understand the complicated links between all the persons in it. Although I know some Indians and their love-life problems, my difficulty in completely grasping your post shows ( apart form the possibility that my brain is too simply structured ) that the idea of marriage, kinship and duty is rather different throughout the world.

And I am not really sure if I understood correctly what you tried to say: that Sansa has no obligations towards Tyrion? Agree. That she has a moral right to murder him? Disagree.

In this series people kill each other off for many reasons and Sansa could start with that any time, like all the other characters she may go over to the dark side any moment.

I don't know if Sansa might have a special right to poison Tyrion - I think killing each other is a secondbest solution to marriage problems. But if she wanted to be free of that marriage, of course she has no obligations towards Tyrion, she can simply avoid to ever see him again, love whomever she wants, forgetting about Tyrion. She needs not be a widow for that. And living with your sweetheart even if still married to someone else may seem the lesser sin even to conservatives than murdering the husband who is in the way. Especially if the husband concerned would not make the new love difficult by becoming threatening.

Throughout literature hatred between the two families of a couple has never been a handicap but often the extra spice in a relationship, Shakespeare might agree. This is a well known trope as well as abduction and beauty and the beast. So GRRM might surprise us with whatever.

and it wasn't in reply to you, it was in reply to the many Tyrion fan boys who are like "How dare Sansa be so mean to Tyrion, she should've knelt, she should learn to be happy in the marriage and to love him for his wonderful personality and she only disliked Tyrion because he was ugly, if it had been Jaime she wouldn't have minded at all, and also Tyrion should've had sex with her because in Westeros it's acceptable to have sex with a girl whose just had her first period"

I was trying to show that, even in cultures where people did have the attitude that "bed a girl as soon as she bleeds"* have arranged marriages and are pretty conservative (I am not talking about Indians who watch Deepa Mehta films and read Arundhati Roy), in fact where the primary female virtue is obeidance and respect that borders on worship towards husbands... where traditionally widows did not remarry (in fact the Greeks believe that Sati existed to discourage women from poisoning their husbands)...the Tyrion Sansa marriage would still be considered reprehensible.

The laws of Manu rates "Romeo and Juliet" type marriages (young couple run off together because their family's are enemies) higher than "forcefully abducting a girl from her father's house whilst her brothers try and save her and she screams and wails in fear"... So a text that infamously advocates marrying an 8 year girl to a 24 year old man does make that distinction...

Interestingly, amongst conservatives, murder is often more acceptable than adultery...

Sansa can't just run off into the sunset and live happily ever after with her lover, she needs to marry and live with a man who can support her. to do this she needs a divorce (which Tyrion in his unpleasant ADWD personality might spitefully withhold) or widowhood. Since Sansa is clearly the wronged party then why not?

*attidude not shared by Medieval Westerners or Westerosi btw

[Woman of War]

Sansa can't just run off into the sunset and live happily ever after with her lover, she needs to marry and live with a man who can support her. to do this she needs a divorce (which Tyrion in his unpleasant ADWD personality might spitefully withhold) or widowhood. Since Sansa is clearly the wronged party then why not?

There is no divorce in westeros. Tyrion might be spiteful, but so far no agreement has ever been tried and I think Tyrion has no reason to be spiteful against Sansa - why??

There is always a moral decision in life. And if Sansa makes the choice to commit murder in order to be able to start an economically more supportive relationship than living independently with e.g. a young lover and work for a living - well, that would be a moral choice.

But so far the unwanted marriage is a protection for Sansa against other ugly claims by whomever who wants to use her as pawn again, Tyrion is fortunately far away from her poison and both are more likely to die by someone else's efforts.

[Zmeischa]

But if she wanted to be free of that marriage, of course she has no obligations towards Tyrion, she can simply avoid to ever see him again, love whomever she wants, forgetting about Tyrion. She needs not be a widow for that. And living with your sweetheart even if still married to someone else may seem the lesser sin even to conservatives than murdering the husband who is in the way. Especially if the husband concerned would not make the new love difficult by becoming threatening. And I believe Tyrion would wish Sansa luck for her new life and wave goodbye, not without deep regret that he himself failed so miserably.

I am very much adverse to the idea of Sansa killing anyone, and of anyone killing Tyrion. But the idea that a woman who was dissatisfied with her husband could simply walk away and have a love life elswhere - it is ridiculous. And I'm not just saying that her social status or status of her future children would go to the dogs (no pun intended :) ). There is a value attached to her, a conrete value measured in money, in lands, in power. Would you let your bank account to go to the seaside and live there independently? I doubt it. She is that bank account, like it or not. A married woman, especially a woman of that high standing can't hope to live as she pleases.

[Trinuviel]

It is specifically mentioned by Lord Tywin that annulment is a possiblity if the marriage is not consummated.

There is one paramount reason for why I really, really don't want Sansa ending up with Tyrion: She doesn't trust him (even when he tries to be kind), or any other Lannister for that matter, and I don't think that she'll ever be able to trust any member of that House ever again.

[Zmeischa]

There is no divorce in westeros.

There is no need for a divorce, there is need for an annulement.

[voodooqueen126]

There is no divorce in westeros. Tyrion might be spiteful, but so far no agreement has ever been tried and I think Tyrion has no reason to be spiteful against Sansa - why??

There is always a moral decision in life. And if Sansa makes the choice to commit murder in order to be able to start an economically more supportive relationship than living independently with e.g. a young lover and work for a living - well, that would be a moral choice.

But so far the unwanted marriage is a protection for Sansa against other ugly claims by whomever who wants to use her as pawn again, Tyrion is fortunately far away from her poison and both are more likely to die by someone else's efforts.

What marriage option could possible be worse than Tyrion? the Harry Harding marriage, whilst it may involve being married to Robert Baratheon 0.2 is incredibly advantageous to Sansa, it gives her vengeance, food for the North, power over a new territory (rather than giving an enemy culture power over her territory) Tyrion gives Sansa precisely nothing, which is why it is so offensive to the sensibilities of a typical arranged marriage.

Working for a living does not involve working in Aldi whilst Sansa pays her way through an arts degree, it involves freezing cold, starvation, war... not an option.

Whilst Tyrion has no reason to be spiteful against Sansa-except for the framing for murder thing- since he should understand that he was to be an eventual accomplice to her murder and that he was her captor. The problem is that Tyrion was spiteful against Sansa-he referred to Sansa as "false" in ADWD, and he was generally a pretty, nasty repellent person throughout the whole book (especially where women where concerned).

[Woman of War]

There is no need for a divorce, there is need for an annulement.

Actually given the upcoming threats in Westeros to all human civilisation, the legal status of Sansa's marriage is a minor problem. GRRM will warm it up if there should be a question about a claim for Winterfell or Casterly Rock. Will these feudal centers of power even exist in the end?? Sansa's claim to Winterfell depends on the fate of her three brothers: where is Rickon, what happens to Bran, is Jon alive and the heir of Robb? There may be nothing left for Snsa at all AND she should not be sad because this would mean that her brothers are alive! She cannot want everybody dead!

Would she have a claim to Casterly Rock if she had poisoned her husband or if said husband had dropped dead for other peoples efforts? I don't think so. There are still some Lannisters left, not to forget nice Myrcella and Tommen.

No, the interesting part in Sansa is not her potential claims, it is her personal maturity, her decision towards good and bad, her intellectual development, her capacity for cunning and politics. She may turn completely to the dark side, maybe even as Tyrion's ally or both do the right thing and "save the planet Earth" or they become antagonists and are forced to hate each other, I don't know of course who of them will be "good " or "bad", or ...... or ....

Compared to that their love-life is a rather minor problem. The book is about decision making, about morality under immoral conditions, poisoning your husband to get rid of him may be one of them, but there are far more interesting ones to come. And in the end, when half the world is dead from starvation or war and the other half is currently starving and freezing to death, a valid marriage certificate may turn out to be a rather ridiculous problem, really.

Edit: I believe one reasonable talk between Sansa and Tyrion would clear the fact that none of them murdered Joffrey and that Sansa never intended to implicate Tyrion. Why do you assume that Tyrion would be immune to see the logic of this? On the contrary, he would be the one who desperately wants to find out the truth and if Sansa as witness could tell him more - great. His bitter mood would hardly be directed towards Sansa, who is in fact wanted for the same murder, being innocent as well.

Edit II: i see that you will continue to argue because you simply don't want Tyrion and Sansa to end up together. As I wrote, to me this is only a plot possibility amongst others, and would surely not qualify as purely happy ending. But it cannot be excluded and does NOT, small wonder, depend on a general forum vote :

San/ San: 25%. :lol:

San/ Ty : 25%. :lol:

San/ blacksmith: 25 % :lol:

San/ independent life: 25 %. :lol:

there are still at least two books to be written and the outcome does not at all depend on our debate here.

[QyburnsApprentice]

First, I love this thread. Fascinating discussions you lot got going on. I would respond individually but don’t want to spam, so I’m just going to wing it.

1. Lady’s death is a big deal for Sansa’s arc because it’s the first textual “wake up call” she gets that shatters her idealized view of Westeros. I am glad GRRM killed her for a number of reasons but primarily because I do not believe the direwolves are altruistic. To the Starks, yes, because they are descendents of the First Men (Andals? I forget which) and can naturally warg – but they came from the wrong side of the Wall, built, as you all know, to keep creatures like them and Others out. None of the Stark kids fares well (or differently, better word) in spite of their direwolves as staunch protectors. Lady and her death serve as a separation symbol for Sansa from the North/Winterfell/Stark and her (later reluctant) initiation into the south that happens gradually and most importantly, keeps Sansa as one mind when the shit hits the fan. The textual evidence of the Starks “losing” or “becoming” or um, well, wearing, their identities as direwolves is so very important to me because of how I interpret their coming as an omen from the old gods, who I also think controls the Others yeah yeah another post for another time. But Lady is that first bump to Sansa.

2. The second is The Hound. I can’t help but “ship” these two but in all their magnificent textually perfect passive aggressive glory. The Hound works as a symbol as well (“get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it”) and one that works consistently all throughout her narrative. What I love about this pairing is that Sansa works as a symbol to the Hound too, and together they make an even grander take on the “ice and fire” contrasts of the whole book. Sansa is indeed a little talking bird, unknowing in GOT, but understanding through the rest of the books. The Hound is the antithesis to Lady. Where the direwolf would have kept Sansa in a state of Winterfell and fear without change (since direwolves feel their masters emotions and reverberate ). The Hound forces Sansa to look at him, to face that fear and if not learn then at least adapt. The fire that dismantled his entire existence and shapes his entire non-pov narrative, it’s the second “wake up” call Sansa gets early in GOT. Sansa’s entire arc is about destroying the song of perfect Westeros. In turn, from what I’ve read, the Hound regards Sansa with a hateful curiosity because she is completely genuine as a lady, and, to me, Sandor can’t really deal with that shit because of Gregor being knighted and being part of Lannisters court showed him it was all lies. So they have this pull/pull harder thing where by destroying each others perfectly constructed views of the world they created themselves, they actually give credence to all they resent (chivalry, kindness for Sandor) and hold dear (songs, happiness, etc). How Sansa is able to romanticize him because he did what knights haven’t done: saved and protected her. How Sandor feels like absolute shit when he went to her that night to rape her: she was a true lady. They invert and subvert the Beauty and the Beast trope while being completely trapped by it in the most terribly sad sort of way. I don’t ever think it will work out though I want them too because they’re so intrinsically written to be about each other, but it’s odd. I think how they’re written, especially Sandor’s unabashed cruelty toward her as he’s with her despite his actions speaking louder than and her idealization of him later on with all the hints GRRM drops, it’s set up perfectly tragic. I’m almost certain Sandor is going to die because of it and it will be one of those /too late moments for Sansa.

3. Queen of the North! I want it and don’t want it. Mostly I just want Sansa to learn. Really and truly hone her skills and use them to become a player. But if it does happen, it’ll probably be the last book. Littlefinger has his own set of problems that differ from Sandors and I tend to separate them since they are textually separate from Sansa in that Sansa literally becomes Catelyn Substitute for Littlefinger. Sansa is detached to the point of Alayne Stone and she at least knows as much. Some part of me wants Littlefinger to die at her hands but he works better as a mentor. A completely creepy psychotic mentor with unresolved love issues, but a mentor nonetheless. He is another person who shatters her world but he is much more complex than Sandor. Complex in that, we don’t really know Littlefinger like we do Sandor, and, since “Alayne” is realizing her role as a pawn, he has already started to shape her. I find that some of Littlefinger’s plan is honest (hahaha), but again, this ties into Catelyn and whatever Littlefinger’s true passions are. Sansa has never been anyone other than Sansa, and yeah, just push that fucker out of the moon door! Finish your perfect narrative, Sansa!

4. Sansa and Tyrion is just, IDK. I don’t want to hate on anyone’s preference but I can’t see ever see “working out” in any meaningful way simply because Tyrion is a Lannister. Even if Tyrion was this omgsoperfect man, which is he is absolutely not, Sansa would see him as part of that Lannister trap and well, it is. They only used her for her claim to Winterfell (regardless of who is still alive).

I could write forever about other things but this is already too long.

[Woman of War]

1. Lady’s death is a big deal for Sansa’s arc because it’s the first textual “wake up call” she gets that shatters her idealized view of Westeros. I am glad GRRM killed her for a number of reasons but primarily because I do not believe the direwolves are altruistic. To the Starks, yes, because they are descendents of the First Men (Andals? I forget which) and can naturally warg – but they came from the wrong side of the Wall, built, as you all know, to keep creatures like them and Others out. None of the Stark kids fares well (or differently, better word) in spite of their direwolves as staunch protectors. Lady and her death serve as a separation symbol for Sansa from the North/Winterfell/Stark and her (later reluctant) initiation into the south that happens gradually and most importantly, keeps Sansa as one mind when the shit hits the fan. The textual evidence of the Starks “losing” or “becoming” or um, well, wearing, their identities as direwolves is so very important to me because of how I interpret their coming as an omen from the old gods, who I also think controls the Others yeah yeah another post for another time. But Lady is that first bump to Sansa.

Your first post? Great post! The quoted part esp. Is extremely interesting, and the part about Sandor, while I do not completely agree, is rather clear sighted

I had to look up IDK in Urban Dictionary. Yes, agree, Sansa and Tyrion IDK :)! But not for the Stark - Lannister thing, this may turn out rather irrelevant in the end, but for a possible incompatibility ( does that word exist in English? ) of personalities.

[Trinuviel]

First, I love this thread. Fascinating discussions you lot got going on. I would respond individually but don’t want to spam, so I’m just going to wing it.

1. Lady’s death is a big deal for Sansa’s arc because it’s the first textual “wake up call” she gets that shatters her idealized view of Westeros. I am glad GRRM killed her for a number of reasons but primarily because I do not believe the direwolves are altruistic. To the Starks, yes, because they are descendents of the First Men (Andals? I forget which) and can naturally warg – but they came from the wrong side of the Wall, built, as you all know, to keep creatures like them and Others out. None of the Stark kids fares well (or differently, better word) in spite of their direwolves as staunch protectors. Lady and her death serve as a separation symbol for Sansa from the North/Winterfell/Stark and her (later reluctant) initiation into the south that happens gradually and most importantly, keeps Sansa as one mind when the shit hits the fan. The textual evidence of the Starks “losing” or “becoming” or um, well, wearing, their identities as direwolves is so very important to me because of how I interpret their coming as an omen from the old gods, who I also think controls the Others yeah yeah another post for another time. But Lady is that first bump to Sansa.

Welcome! Great post with a lot of astute observations. I agree with a lot of your thoughts, but right now I'll limit myself to the qestion of the direwolves.

I'm currently re-reading book three and have come to have some nagging doubts about the direwolves and the nature of their mental bonds between them and the Stark children since it seems tied to a certain loss of identity, or bluuring of identities in the Stark children (something that Sansa also seems to suffer from in book 4).

Re-reading bran's chapters made me very worried because when he wargs the wolf seems to completely take over (haven't read Dance yet, so he might learn to control it), the same thing also applies to Arya (which will be exacerbated by her apprenticeship with the FM) and Shaggydog/Rickon are already feral in the first book because he is quite simply to young and exposed to be able to control that bond. I very much fear that Rickon will turn out very bad if he manages to survive childhood.