The Official Appreciation Thread for The Queen in the North, Sansa Stark

[QyburnsApprentice]

Welcome! Great post with a lot of astute observations. I agree with a lot of your thoughts, but right now I'll limit myself to the qestion of the direwolves.

I'm currently re-reading book three and have come to have some nagging doubts about the direwolves and the nature of their mental bonds between them and the Stark children since it seems tied to a certain loss of identity, or bluuring of identities in the Stark children (something that Sansa also seems to suffer from in book 4).

Thanks! This board is very intimidating. Heard many things. But I lurked around enough to see for myself and decided to get an account last night because I need to talk about ASOIAF things.

So far I haven't seen the direwolves painted in any sort of negative light. Maybe I haven't looked too hard but so far Lady's death is seen as something bad for Sansa. I don't think she would have adapated/survived and kept her own identity if she had that pull to her direwolf as her siblings did (and this makes me think of her as more Tully than Stark, or rather, more "south" than "north" why I think she's lived as long). Given all that's happened to the Stark family, I'm surprised the direwolves are not seen as omens.

[headtrip_honey]

Thanks! This board is very intimidating. Heard many things. But I lurked around enough to see for myself and decided to get an account last night because I need to talk about ASOIAF things.

So far I haven't seen the direwolves painted in any sort of negative light. Maybe I haven't looked too hard but so far Lady's death is seen as something bad for Sansa. I don't think she would have adapated/survived and kept her own identity if she had that pull to her direwolf as her siblings did (and this makes me think of her as more Tully than Stark, or rather, more "south" than "north" why I think she's lived as long). Given all that's happened to the Stark family, I'm surprised the direwolves are not seen as omens.

I actually think that, at her core, Sansa is VERY much of the North.

She is stoic in the face of the torment Joff gives her.

She believed, falsely, as did Ned, that people will generally act in an honorable fashion.

And more than anything else, she wants to go HOME. Her scene with the snow Winterfell tells me she is VERY much a Stark.

And above all, a Stark survives.

And honestly, besides Robb, I think Sansa is the MOST like Ned of the children. Arya is clearly like Lyanna and Brandon, not Ned. Fiery temper, impetuous. Perhaps Rickon is, too, although he's too young to truly know. Bran, I think, is the most like Catelyn. But that's my own feeling.

Sansa loved songs and stories, true. But she was an isolated teenage girl. Songs and stories were her connection to the world outside of Winterfell.

But when she's put IN that world, she retreats into herself, and there, I think, discovers how strong she truly is. She seeks out the godswood, she dreams of home, of having children that look like her siblings.

AUGH, I could ramble on and on. I have a lot of ~feelings about Sansa.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I think it is significant that Lady is dead, whereas Nymeria is just roaming around. I think Arya will reunite with Nymeria and hopefully remember that she isn't nobody, that she is a Stark of Winterfell. Sansa doesn't have that link to her old self, so I worry that if she fully loses herself in Alayne or in LF's schemes she won't have anything to pull herself back.

[headtrip_honey]

I think it is significant that Lady is dead, whereas Nymeria is just roaming around. I think Arya will reunite with Nymeria and hopefully remember that she isn't nobody, that she is a Stark of Winterfell. Sansa doesn't have that link to her old self, so I worry that if she fully loses herself in Alayne or in LF's schemes she won't have anything to pull herself back.

except a certain crippled old dog....coughcough...

[Hound's She-wolf]

except a certain crippled old dog....coughcough...

I hope with all my fangirly heart this is true.

[ZacharyB]

Weird sort of irrelevant thought I had.

You know how Robb and Jon went into Grey Wind and Ghost when they died. What if Lady went into Sansa when she died?

I don't have any textual evidence to back it up, but it's a nice thought.

[voodooqueen126]

You know what I liked most of all about Sandor and Sansa.... it's that he seems to like her for herself.

Sure he tries to destroy her naivety but ultimately he respects her innocence.

Sansa trusts him enough to be honest with him: when she tells him that he is 'an awful man', she trusts no other person in the whole text.

[mor2]

What will happen if Sansa will turn into Cersei instead of LF?

[Hound's She-wolf]

What will happen if Sansa will turn into Cersei instead of LF?

Of-course I really don't want that to happen, we already have so many examples of people who started out innocent and believing in songs and then end up corrupted or cynical. Why can't we just have ONE person stay sweet and innocent. OK, she does have to learn how to play the Game so she doesn't end up like dear old Ned, but I don't want her to lose her morality and decency.

[Verboten]

Of-course I really don't want that to happen, we already have so many examples of people who started out innocent and believing in songs and then end up corrupted or cynical. Why can't we just have ONE person stay sweet and innocent. OK, she does have to learn how to play the Game so she doesn't end up like dear old Ned, but I don't want her to lose her morality and decency.

She's embittered and brutally disillusioned. She is no longer sweet and innocent.

[Verboten]

Innocent in the personality sense, not the guilty sense.

[Alexia]

Am I one of the few who would like to see Sansa become Cersei? I mean the Cersei as she could have been... a smart, savvy, politically aware woman who bucks social expectations and charts her own course at life.

This is what Cersei wanted to do and was a completely failure at. I think that Sansa may end up becoming more successful at it -- I think she may end up as the Eleanor or Aquitaine figure for ASOIAF.

[Verboten]

Am I one of the few who would like to see Sansa become Cersei? I mean the Cersei as she could have been... a smart, savvy, politically aware woman who bucks social expectations and charts her own course at life.

This is what Cersei wanted to do and was a completely failure at. I think that Sansa may end up becoming more successful at it -- I think she may end up as the Eleanor or Aquitaine figure for ASOIAF.

If she were going to be any historical figure I want her to be Wu Zetian. Except she doesn't get executed at the end.

[Candor]

Am I one of the few who would like to see Sansa become Cersei? I mean the Cersei as she could have been... a smart, savvy, politically aware woman who bucks social expectations and charts her own course at life.

This is what Cersei wanted to do and was a completely failure at. I think that Sansa may end up becoming more successful at it -- I think she may end up as the Eleanor or Aquitaine figure for ASOIAF.

In those terms, yes, that would be satisfying to see. As long as you remove the incompetence and the "crazy" factor from Cersei's actions, she makes for a strong female character and it probably wouldn't hurt Sansa to become more like that.

Sansa already shows some natural diplomatic ability, and is quite compassionate. After some more learning I would not be surprised if she came out as a good-minded, tactful player of the Game. I'd very much like her to "chart her own course" you know, so that she's happy, not a pawn.

[Candor]

I think she may end up as the Eleanor or Aquitaine figure for ASOIAF.

As long as her husband doesn't get all.....Henry the 2nd and lock her in a tower, this would be good.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think it is significant that Lady is dead, whereas Nymeria is just roaming around. I think Arya will reunite with Nymeria and hopefully remember that she isn't nobody, that she is a Stark of Winterfell. Sansa doesn't have that link to her old self, so I worry that if she fully loses herself in Alayne or in LF's schemes she won't have anything to pull herself back.

What's interesting is that all the Starks from Rickard on down have either died violently or are in hiding/disguise and losing their Starkness. And there are no Starks in Winterfell anymore, Winterfell, like House Stark, is a broken ruin.

Lord Rickard, father of Ned, came to his son's aid and expected, as per the demands of honor, to fight Aerys' champion in a trial by combat for the life of Rickard's heir Brandon. Brandon had acted like a 'wild' Stark, showing the impetuous wolf blood that marks him and a few other Starks we know (Arya, Lyanna, probably Rickon), and threatened the crown prince's life out of rage for that prince's abduction of his sister. Rickard and Brandon died.

Lyanna also was a strong Stark with a wild streak; who died young and painfully, probably as a result of childbirth infection.

Benjen Stark, very much a stern, honorable Stark, is probably dead; I don't think he's Coldhands.

We all know what happened to 'the Ned', who was not as impetuous or wild as two of his siblings, but was very Stark in his sense of honor and his strength.

Robb, the Young Wolf, the heir of House Stark and King of the North, who had perhaps, some of that wild, impetuous streak that comes out in the Starks, died violently.

Jon Snow, the bastard half-Stark outsider, has remade himself from the brother of Ned's children, a well-liked (by most) but still somewhat outcast lord's son of Winterfell and potential liege-man of Robb, into the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He seems to have managed to find his own identity and been able to keep his honor and the Stark tradition of loyalty and courage while having to break with the actual Starks...He is closest to finding himself a worthy new life while keeping the best Stark traditions and memories alive. And he still has his direwolf.

Sansa is alive, having survived physical and emotional abuse, but has lost much of the outward signs of being a Stark - her direwolf, her name (since she married a Lannister and then took on the name of her family's betrayer's fictional daughter) and even her status a trueborn Stark. Though she managed to carry the Stark traditions of honor and (from Ned) compassion with her in her captivity in King's Landing, Sansa, as Alayne, is in danger of losing both under the seductive and corrupting influence of her current protector. She lost her direwolf and does not, if I remember correctly, dream of her often. Still, Sansa has become more a daughter of Winterfell in her exile than she was when she left it in AGOT as a spoiled little girl dreaming of glory in the South; she thinks lovingly of her siblings, wishes she could name future children after them, and builds Winterfell in the snow.

Arya after having killed to stay alive and free and to avenge suffering, is the farthest from home; and perhaps the farthest from the traditions of the Starks. Her wild streak has kept her alive, but she has taken on other names, and recently, willingly embraced the mantle of an assassin. Arya had to drive her direwolf away to save her life, but runs with Nymeria in her dreams.

Bran has Stark-serving companions - Hodor, the Reeds, and his direwolf Summer - to remind him of his Stark background on his journey to find the Three-eyed crow.

however, the point of the journey seems to be to annex Bran to the weirwood trees and make him a tree-bound prophet - which will give him great visions and power, but pretty much destroy his life as the true Lord Stark

Currently, Bran seems to be moving away from his Stark heritage rather than towards it; though he still has Summer.

The littlest Stark may not even remember that he is a Stark at all. Rickon was four or five when we saw him, angry and frustrated by upheavals that he could not understand, often unable to control his fierce wolf. Osha took him away from Bran, who represented the last remnant of the life Rickon knew and wanted, at Bran's orders and for the child's safety, but it was a terrible moment for the little boy. Even if Osha can continue to safeguard Rickon, how can she teach him anything of his Stark heritage, when she is supposed to keep him hidden from their enemies? If Rickon ever returns to Winterfell, he may be more of a Wildling or an outlaw than a Stark.

There are two pseudo-Starks in ADWD: Alys Karstark and Jeyne Poole. Both are stand-ins for Arya. Alys draws Melisandre's eye and Jon's concern when Melisandre believes her to be Arya on the run. Alys begs Jon's help "In your father's name"; and he gives it; proving that oath or no oath, the North does remember and Jon is still Ned Stark's son. Alys is of a house that is distantly related to the Starks; and she acts very much like a Stark, strong, honorable, and self-reliant enough to get herself out of danger and into the right hands, over dangerous terrain. Jeyne Poole, on the other hand, is a sad girl of about 14, brutalized by her time in the whorehouse, and given to a psychopath to cement his claim to Winterfell. She is Stark-affiliated, raised in Winterfell as a companion to the first daughter of House Stark, and is given into marriage under the assumed name and identity of Arya Stark, a guise that fools only a few people, but that no one dares unmask. Jeyne is a Stark who is not a Stark; but she is not brave, or brave only in that she does not go insane in Ramsay Bolton's hands. She serves not only as the fake Stark who enhances Bolton's hold on Winterfell, but as a living reminder to the broken Theon not of who he once was, but who he would like to be and who he could be.

What makes a person a Stark? The name, the genes, the physical environment of Winterfell, the traditions of honor and courage, the direwolf affiliations and warging abilities? Perhaps it comes from the house words: Winter is Coming. The Starks seem to value the ability to stand up for what is right, to lead and protect their people, in the adversity of Winter as well as the warmth of Summer. Lannisters roar, Baratheons announce their fury, Tullys prize duty-honor-family, Tyrells grow stronger, Arryns hold themselves high as honor, Greyjoys reap and Martells neither bow nor bend nor break, but the Starks stand for the best of humanity, and the protection of humanity in the worst of times.

[Alexia]

I think that Cersei could have done a lot better at things had she been groomed for the role her family expected her to play. She played with no natural ability and no training and failed, spectacularly.

OTOH, Sansa has some very good instincts for such a young girl (such as seeing the inevitable war between the Tyrells and the Lannisters through the Joff/Marg marriage) and has receiving political training from such Westerosi luminaries as Queen Cersei (a study in what NOT to do) and Littlefinger.

I very much want to see Sansa's reaction to hearing about the Great Nude Parade, incidentally. Will she take pleasure in Cersei's downfall, or will she pity her?

[Verboten]

I think that Cersei could have done a lot better at things had she been groomed for the role her family expected her to play. She played with no natural ability and no training and failed, spectacularly.

OTOH, Sansa has some very good instincts for such a young girl (such as seeing the inevitable war between the Tyrells and the Lannisters through the Joff/Marg marriage) and has receiving political training from such Westerosi luminaries as Queen Cersei (a study in what NOT to do) and Littlefinger.

I very much want to see Sansa's reaction to hearing about the Great Nude Parade, incidentally. Will she take pleasure in Cersei's downfall, or will she pity her?

I think she'll feel both.

[Candor]

I very much want to see Sansa's reaction to hearing about the Great Nude Parade, incidentally. Will she take pleasure in Cersei's downfall, or will she pity her?

I suspect both. It's Sansa.

[Candor]

Random thought process, please excuse.

Lady was very well-behaved, dignified, perhaps unusual for her species (sure, the owner has a bearing on the animal but by nature are direwolves known to be well-behaved? Probably not). A Southern, somewhat un-Stark-ly wolf. At the beginning, so was Sansa.

Fast forward for a time. Sansa loses Lady as she goes South, by the hand of the people who will torment her, break her, and shape her for the next few years.

Currently, Sansa is showing herself to be very much with Stark tendencies, but wields them well. It's kind of hard to explain myself but I think that losing her wolf, while tragic, might not be the bad omen some people make i tout to be. Perhaps losing Lady symbolizes the the things that change for Sansa. She rids herself of certain tendencies she had at the beginning of the series, and those other qualities begin to bloom.

Kudos to anyone who gets what I'm trying to say here, :lol: it sounds like a bunch of ramble but I swear I have a point if only I could make it clear!