what else/more could the Blackfish have done?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Since the appreciation threads have run their course, i am starting this one with a few specific questions regarding complaints that have been thrown out about him. Here is a link to an essay on what a general jackass he was:

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/11/17-2-characters-unworthy-of-praise/index.html

I disagree with almost everything this essay has to say about the Blackfish. First, regarding his parley with Jaime ... What was the Blackfish supposed to do? Agree to terms with a Lannister best known for breaking oaths, and then watch as all his people are slaughtered anyway? He had NO reason to trust anythinf said by the Lannisters OR the Freys, after the recent behavior of both families. Brynden knows that Jaime swore to return Cat's girls, and has not. With the Freys, the Red Wedding is still fresh in everyone's minds.

If I were Brynden, I would have told Jaime where he could stick his terms and ridden away as well. Better to buy time and hope for some change in circumstances that will even out the odds or offer some hope. There have been people in worse siege situations who have been rescued by unforeseen events. I think in the Blackfish's mind, the odds of some miraculous deliverance were better than those of the Lannisters/Freys keeping any surrender terms.

As to his treatment of Edmure ... Edmure IS an utter buffoon. This is a guy who cannot follow the simplest of orders and directions, and HE is the one who was hungry to help himself to a healthy chuck of the glory with his Battle of the Fords. This is a guy who can be literally so wrapped up in banging his new wife (and so oblivious of the obvious clues Cat is noticing all around them) that he has no clue that his king and most of their retinue are being slaughtered downstairs. I son't care how loud the fiddlers were ...and would it not strike you as odd that you have been assigned the world's loudest and worst fiddlers for your bedding at all?

I'm sorry, but if there is one thing we have learned in asoiaf, it is that the person born to inherit is quite often one of the least capable of actually doing the job. Edmure would have been to Riverrun what Robert was to Westeros, spent it blind, screwed everything in sight and just generally have made the Riverlands an ill-run mess.

As to Brynden speaking directly to Robb rather than through Edmure to Robb, I have not seen any cases yet where members of a war council had to pass a note before study hall to get to coice their opinions. Robert, Stannis, Robb, even Tywin - they listen to what ALL their closest advisors have to say, directly. Why should Brynden have been the only one who had to raise his hand for permission before he spoke?

And, there is absolutely no evidence to back up the theory that Robb's battle plans for the west were fictitious in any way; throughout the war he has been winning by out- strategizing the enemy. Edmure completely deserved the dressing down he got over ruining it.

So yeah, his "liege lord" is standing around with a noose about his neck, and could be killed any minute. There is not a thing the Blackfish can do about that and if I were him, I would be somewhat bitter to see this total blunderer, who has inherited (and left to his own devices, will probably wreck) everything my deceased brother worked all his life to build, standing there alive and hale, married to a woman who is carrying his child and with whom he evidently shares a mutual affection ...as I thought about my dead KING who has just been foully murdered by a coterie of these "honorable" people now trying to make "peace terms" with me, knowing HIS wife was completely false (whether on her own or because of her family) and no heir of his will ever be born.

Robb was his nephew the same as Edmure, but for a man like Blackfish, the sort who would be much easier to bond with and like. At that point I might shoot Edmure myself, deprive the Freys of their hostage, and put Edmure out of everyone's misery. At least Brynden has had the self control not to. And I am sure he is quite pissed off when the first thing Edmure does is turn his ancestral home over to the Lannisters and Freys without so much as a single attempt to influence the terms. Just kind of, "here ya go on a silver platter."

[Alexia]

Edmure was a far better person than the Blackfish.

The Blackfish strips the lands of food and condemns all of the smallfolk to starve so that he can go out in a blaze of glory. Edmure does his best to protect the innocent, helpless people in his lands. Thousands of people will starve to death for the Blackfish's "honor."

I'm not sure why Edmure deserves to be dressed down for following orders. When did he gain his famed mind-reading abilities that enabled him to read Robb's mind and realized what Robb wanted to do? I happen to agree with the author that the plan was probably fictitious anyway or else they could never have been so stupid as to not inform Edmure of it. I believe they intended to strongarm Edmure into a forced marriage to make up for Robb's betrayal of the Freys and made it up on the spot.

The riverlands would have been better served if Edmure had repudiated his allegiance to Robb and sworn to the Iron Throne. Robb wanted revenge and made the riverlands pay for it while systemically botching every political decision of the war. Edmure's poor political decision-making was in not following the example of more insightful lords, who fled the sinking ship while they still could benefit from it. As a result, the Tullys lost Riverrun.

Finally, the Blackfish is a massive hypocrite. He refuses to marry and cuts ties over it, and then turns around and strongarms his nephew into a forced marriage. Watch in TWOW as we see him meet Sansa and he turns right back around and tries to force her into a marriage!

If I was a peasant, I would far prefer to live in a kingdom run by Edmure Tully rather than by Brynden Tully. *shudders*

[Alexia]

Also, here is something else I find odd. I don't want to see Roslin Frey as Lady of Riverrun any more than the next reader. But the BF is part of strongarming Edmure into that marriage. He stood there in the room and put pressure on him to make him marry her as "amends." But then Edmure is wrong for not casting her off?

Part of what shows Edmure is a good person is the fact that he doesn't hold Roslin responsible for the scheming and treason of her family, unlike, say.... Joffrey, with Sansa Stark, who has "traitor's blood." The Blackfish has himself to blame for Edmure's marriage to Roslin Frey. It isn't enough for him to dictate the marriage, now he gets to dictate the divorce?

And, there is absolutely no evidence to back up the theory that Robb's battle plans for the west were fictitious in any way;

Why yes there is. We heard not so much as a peep of this plan until Robb broke his oath to a Frey and decided to force Edmure to marry one in his place. Robb would be seriously mentally deficient not to have shared this with Edmure. If this plan ever existed, they came up with it long after they parted ways with Edmure and left him at Riverrun.

[Stannis the Great]

I think it's a bit harsh to reprimand Edmure Tully for failing to notice the Red Wedding. It was his wedding day after all, it's reasonable to assume that he was very much distracted in his bride. And I doubt that he would be thinking of how loud the music was during the bedding - he had other issues at hand.

Edmure is also one of the few lords in ASOIAF that actually seems to care about his common-folk. Strategically unsound but actually a good move considering that the common-folk create most of the wealth so it would be wise to see them alive whilst fighting a losing battle.

With regards to the Lannister march to the Westerlands, I honestly think Robb and the Blackfish were too busy planning and assumed that Edmure would understand the strategy to trap the Lannister forces in the Westerlands. I highly doubt that the plan was fictitious because it fits in with Robb's surprise tactics.

I see the Blackfish as a good military commander but a poor liege Lord while the opposite proves true for his nephew.

The forced marriage of Edmure by the Blackfish was not too hypocritical. I believe that the Blackfish is homosexual and that was his reason for refusing to marry and that he thought that Edmure was getting a decent wife which would aid Robb's efforts.

[LordBloodraven]

Edmure is too candid, too good to be a good Leader (by which I mean one that will promote the interests of his House and his people) in times of war. As Ned called him, he's too gallant and will take sound risks for it. I don't think that the Blackfish wanted to die in a blaze of glory, the kingdom was decapitated but Riverrun shouldn't fall as easily as that. The Blackfish by reaping all the food, and keeping only soldiers in Riverrun did a drastic move, but one that could give him leverage towards the Lannisters. It was a harsh one but strategically sound. Not always good, but sometimes necessary. And what happened in AFFC just proved it: the Frey-Lannister needed to negociate the surrender of Riverrun instead of storming it or besieging it. The latter one was nearly impossible since they would need to have a long supply line stretching to the Westerlands, which was dangerous given how Riverrun was infested with outlaws.

I do think that Edmure is a good person. I admire him for his devotion toward Roslin, given what happened at their wedding.But Edmure is an average lord at best, if Robb hadn't come early in AGOT, he would probably be dead by this time. As Ned pointed it, he's too gallant, the male Sansa at 27 years old. He scattered his army instead of rassembling it. He wanted to defend every inch of the Riverlands instead of defending the strategic points. Result: in two battles he's prisoner beneath his walls. There's no debate on his goodness and I still don't understand why Robb and the Blackfish expected him not to fight Tywin Lannister in the riverlands. The fault lies on them, for not giving proper instructions to the leader of the Riverlands after all. But again in this battle, he wanted to prove himself, his gallantry, his ardeur and knightly valor. He fought to rival Robb's growing glory, to be loved by the smallfolk and to erase his earlier defeat in AGOT.

Concerning the Frey wedding, in the Blackfish's rationale, Edmure just botched all their plans and gave a strategic advantage to the Lannisters by not keeping himself in the castle. Edmure wanted to make amends, and given his fondness for the gentle sex, it was a good start. But like I said, the fault is theirs for not giving proper instructions.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I usually like Stefan's articles and posts, but as I said there, I completely disagree with his views because they are based on two false premises:

Premise A: That BF knew that he could count on Jaime's word that he and his men wouldn't be executed. This is obviously untrue, and even Daven points that out to Jaime. We know that Jaime intended to keep his word, but only because we were inside his head.

Premise B: That the Lannisters cannot be defeated. That looked false even in AFFC, but even more in ADWD, which makes even more clear how the Lannister army is melting away. In addition to that, most of the Freys are in the North, and this Lannister/Frey/Bolton unholy alliance has to deal with Stannis gaining strength, Aegon appearing, Ironborn raids and the BWB, all that without having enough food for their men, which is not a problem for BF, and the arrival of winter.

And at the end of ADWD, the one man that could bring any hope of stability for the Lannisters is murdered.

Even if it would be hard to have the Kingdom of the North and the Trident back, there were definitively other alternatives, and the Lannisters would have been forced to give up the siege because of more pressing concerns eventually.

[David Selig]

It's always annoyed me how Robb and the Blackfish blame Edmure for their big blunder. if they wanted him to stay in Riverrun and let Tywin pass, they should've told him so. They didn't, so it's their fault. And the Blackfish is not 16, so he's more to blame than Robb for his childish behaviour on this.

And he should've surrended Riverrun. Yes, there was a chance the Lannisters and freys would betray him again, but compared to the certainty that they have no way to hold the castle again vastly superior forces, it was the better option for the defenders. The war was pretty much over, what's the point of another betrayal?

[mediocre cheese]

I son't care how loud the fiddlers were ...and would it not strike you as odd that you have been assigned the world's loudest and worst fiddlers for your bedding at all?

It has already been alluded to, but no, loud fiddlers playing badly would not lead me to believe my sister and nephew were being executed in the reception hall. Even if he had made a sherlock holmesian deduction (fiddlers outside my bedchamber playing poorly can only mean that they are trying to cover something up, and what else would they try to cover up, but the murder of thousands of soldiers) what would he have done? Leaped off the bed and strode out of the hall nude to fight the boltons and freys?

[Erinne]

It has already been alluded to, but no, loud fiddlers playing badly would not lead me to believe my sister and nephew were being executed in the reception hall. Even if he had made a sherlock holmesian deduction (fiddlers outside my bedchamber playing poorly can only mean that they are trying to cover something up, and what else would they try to cover up, but the murder of thousands of soldiers) what would he have done? Leaped off the bed and strode out of the hall nude to fight the boltons and freys?

I am sure the sight of his rampant manhood would've made them all flee in terror.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Blaming Edmure for Stone Mill was uncalled for. But otherwise the Blackfish did a good job. Trusting Lannister/Freys in surrender? Good luck. Your chances that they will keep their promises are about one in a million. The only chance Edmure to survive Riverruns surrender ever had was Jaime trying to redeem himself. Something totally unexpected. Genna Frey makes a valid point about executing Edmure. It is not only sensible, but necessary to kill a rallying point for defense. Same thing for (possibly pregnant) Jeyne Stark and himself. A siege on the other hand is chancy at best. Riverrun had a better chance to withstand an all out attack by Lannister/Freys than trusting in their promises. And a siege was impossible. Sieging a castle for two years, straight into winter? In a ravaged country? Your troops will die by the thousands.

And it will give the BWB, the Northern Lords, the Vale and possible other forces time to off the Lannisters.

Oh, and what's wrong with gays (or lesbians)?

[Queensmoot]

I think it's a bit harsh to reprimand Edmure Tully for failing to notice the Red Wedding. It was his wedding day after all, it's reasonable to assume that he was very much distracted in his bride. And I doubt that he would be thinking of how loud the music was during the bedding - he had other issues at hand.

Edmure is also one of the few lords in ASOIAF that actually seems to care about his common-folk. Strategically unsound but actually a good move considering that the common-folk create most of the wealth so it would be wise to see them alive whilst fighting a losing battle.

With regards to the Lannister march to the Westerlands, I honestly think Robb and the Blackfish were too busy planning and assumed that Edmure would understand the strategy to trap the Lannister forces in the Westerlands. I highly doubt that the plan was fictitious because it fits in with Robb's surprise tactics.

I see the Blackfish as a good military commander but a poor liege Lord while the opposite proves true for his nephew.

The forced marriage of Edmure by the Blackfish was not too hypocritical. I believe that the Blackfish is homosexual and that was his reason for refusing to marry and that he thought that Edmure was getting a decent wife which would aid Robb's efforts.

I agree - Blackfish is probably gay.

I'm very curious as to where he is going since his escape. The Vale? He lived there for a long time, but if he knows LF is there it's out. I imagine he'll hook up with the BWB.

[LordBloodraven]

I am sure the sight of his rampant manhood would've made them all flee in terror.

Who wouldn't flee at the sight of a sweating naked man with a bloody sword, trying to catch his breath?

[Queensmoot]

I am sure the sight of his rampant manhood would've made them all flee in terror.

:bowdown: The Riverlands hookers seemed fond of him! :laugh:

[brashcandy]

Who wouldn't flee at the sight of a sweating naked man with a bloody sword, trying to catch his breath?

:lol: If it was Robert Baratheon I might agree with you.

[Winterfell is Burning]

It's always annoyed me how Robb and the Blackfish blame Edmure for their big blunder. if they wanted him to stay in Riverrun and let Tywin pass, they should've told him so. They didn't, so it's their fault. And the Blackfish is not 16, so he's more to blame than Robb for his childish behaviour on this.

And he should've surrended Riverrun. Yes, there was a chance the Lannisters and freys would betray him again, but compared to the certainty that they have no way to hold the castle again vastly superior forces, it was the better option for the defenders. The war was pretty much over, what's the point of another betrayal?

Why couldn't he hold Riverrun? The castle is one of the toughest to storm in the entire realm and the Lannisters are losing men by the minute. A siege, by the reasons, stated above by me and others, is almost impossible, and Lannister defeat was likely- and considering the events of ADWD, pretty much certain.

[Stannis the Great]

Who wouldn't flee at the sight of a sweating naked man with a bloody sword, trying to catch his breath?

I see what you did there. :P

I have a feeling that the Blackfish is the Hooded Man in Winterfell (he has the mannerisms of Brynden Tully when he talks to Theon) however I'm unsure if it's even possible for him to be there or if Theon was become a bit deranged. There are few other places for him to go but if not Winterfell he's probably with UnCat and the BwB. Or in the Vale where he finds Sansa.

[David Selig]

Why couldn't he hold Riverrun? The castle is one of the toughest to storm in the entire realm and the Lannisters are losing men by the minute. A siege, by the reasons, stated above by me and others, is almost impossible, and Lannister defeat was likely- and considering the events of ADWD, pretty much certain.

Because the Lannisters had 20 times his numbers, and could bring more if necessary. They weren't going to extend the siege due to the lack of food - Jaime was going to storm the castle it if his plan with Edmure hadn't work, and I don't see how the Blackfish could've succeeded in repelling his forces. That's the only realistic hope Brynden had - killing much more of the Lannisters than the number of is own troops, but the defenders were doomed in any case. Do you think the Lannister forces woul've just sat thereuntil they run out of food and then pack and go home?

[LordBloodraven]

Because the Lannisters had 20 times his numbers, and could bring more if necessary. They weren't going to extend the siege due to the lack of food - Jaime was going to storm the castle it if his plan with Edmure hadn't work, and I don't see how the Blackfish could've succeeded in repelling his forces. That's the only realistic hope Brynden had - killing much more of the Lannisters than the number of is own troops, but the defenders were doomed in any case. Do you think the Lannister forces woul've just sat thereuntil they run out of food and then pack and go home?

Between surrendering a garrison and expecting mercy from people who had just committed the greatest treachery and retreating behind the walls of a castle, well approvisionned and garrisonned, a castle which could be transformed in an island, when besieged, what would you choose?

[Alexia]

An additional comment: I think there are exactly two alternatives under which this "plan" existed.

Option One: The Blackfish and Robb came up with it while in the westerlands, far from home and Edmure, on the fly. They were unable to send him word.

Option Two: The Blackfish and Robb wanted Edmure to put up a realistic fight against Tywin and considered him a loser who wouldn't be able to win. They smirked, laughed about how much he sucks, and then came unglued with outrage when he won the battles they expected him to lose and blamed him for it instead of themselves.

[Alexia]

Between surrendering a garrison and expecting mercy from people who had just committed the greatest treachery and retreating behind the walls of a castle, well approvisionned and garrisonned, a castle which could be transformed in an island, when besieged, what would you choose?

I'd surrender the garrison because, in the face of certain defeat, mercy is possible with surrender but will never be granted if they take the castle by force. But then, in the Blackfish's shoes, I would have already snatched up a few of the most important people (Jeyne Westerling and any important Tully Stark relatives) and fled with them into exile (maybe the Vale, maybe elsewhere). The war and Riverrun were lost at the Red Wedding.