what else/more could the Blackfish have done?

[Tini]

What if they starve? If the Lannisters have to abandon the siege because they cannot provision their host, that would mean an opportunity for the Blackfish to escape with Robb's potential heir.

Winter was imminent, it's freezing, there was no food in the country around Riverrun, and there might have popped up more urgent business than a potential Stark heir (in the form of Aegon or the High Septon at KL) which might have forced the Lannisters to reconsider continuing their siege during winter time. Maybe the Blackfish counted on this to help him out.

[Lummel]

But in AFFC virtually the whole realm is at peace under Lannister rule - how can they starve when they have most of Westeros that they can bring in supplies from? Again if the security risk of Jeyne having Robb's child is as great as Jaime says then really the Lannisters are going to devote their resources to capturing Riverrun.

I think escaping with Jeyne was a reasonable option - certainly more reasonable than keeping her in riverrun to wait an inevitable doom - but the time to escape was after the Red Wedding not once they were under siege.

If the Blackfish was counting on the then unknown Aegon or the High Septon saving him then surely he was no ordinary hero but a soothsayer of the first order!

[Tini]

As you said, the supplies would have to be brought in. At a time when travel was becoming increasingly difficult. From far away because there was no food to be had close to Riverrun - thanks to Tywin Lannister and the Blackfish for destroying the harvests and scouring the country clean. The war had destroyed the harvests, and the stores were empty almost everywhere - except in the Vale. The food that was still there was hoarded by its owners for the winter to come. Its owner would not admit they still had food, or would refuse to share (see the Freys). In addition, the wood for keeping fires will be running low, too, and will have to be brought from farther and farther away. The soldiers would be in for a cold and hungry stay at Riverrun's walls. We saw what starvation did to Stannis' host. And that is something that the Blackfish could bank on. Winter was his ally, the longer it lasted, the harder it was, the harder it would hit his enemies.

Coming winter might also have had something to do with his decision to stay in Riverrun. Blizzards are no fun out in the open. As the Lannister host might have found out if the siege had lasted longer.

And if the Blackfish heard any rumors about Cersei's rule, he knew that she would alienate her allies creating interesting situations elsewhere. You don't need to be a soothsayer to predict snow in wintertime. The trouble didn't have to include Aegon or the High Septon, though the High Septon and Cersei's trial were certainly interesting news.

[Errant Bard]

The siege/starving thing is rather moot, Jaime had decided to storm the castle with everything he had, Robb's ex-allies first, then the Freys, then Lannisters. It would have been a bloodbath, but after slaughtering his old friends, the Blackfish would have died, eventually. There would never have been a siege.

[Tini]

Jaime said he had the intention to storm Riverrun when he was trying to persuade Edmure to give him the castle. Many people would have died. It's still not sure that the Lannister forces would have been able to take the castle, so a siege might have followed.

Even if the castle had been stormed successfully, the Blackfish would still have won. If Robb's allies go (and die) first, people will remember that bending their knee to a Lannister will mean that they will die just a bit later, trying to kill their own kin. Such things will be remembered at the oddest hours.

[Errant Bard]

Such things will be remembered at the oddest hours.

Yeah, a pretty odd hour necessiting another civil war, and the Lannisters winning again. Of course, the lords will not remember that the guy who resisted until the end was just exterminated, nah, nobody remembers the ilk of the Reynes.

If that's all Jaime has to fear, that's a bargain.

[LuisDantas]

I don't think we know enough about Edmure to say much about his merits (and even less about his failures) as either a liege lord or a military commander. For what it is worth, I don't recall any true failures from him, other than the failure to further Brynden and Robb's strategy in the West - and that blame can just as easily be assigned to Robb as to Edmure.

That said, I don't think it is fair to hold the Blackfish's refusal of an arranged marriage against him, either. Nor do I see why it would be wrong for him to pressure Edmure into such an marriage despite his own choice.

It may look hypocritical at first glance, but I have no reason to believe that Brynden remaining a bachelor endangered anyone. Different circunstances.

As for Jaime using Edmure as leverage against Brynden, I don't blame him for refusing to yield, either. It is a very difficult decision, and I would respect going either way. But I sure don't expect Brynden Tully to blame himself for the Lannisters' use of hostages and threats. It is not like he is encouraging them.

As for the possibility of Brynden being homosexual, I just don't see how we could know either way from what we have seen so far. Much less do I see why it would matter. People are known to dislike being forced into marriages with people of the gender they feel drawn to.

[mediocre cheese]

Even if the castle had been stormed successfully, the Blackfish would still have won. If Robb's allies go (and die) first, people will remember that bending their knee to a Lannister will mean that they will die just a bit later, trying to kill their own kin. Such things will be remembered at the oddest hours.

No, he would have lost. Because he'd be dead and his ancestral home would have been destroyed. As errant bard said no one remembers the heroic last stand of the reynes and tarbecks. They just remember the that you'd best not fuck with tywin.

[Talleyrand]

To me the Blackfish who's main support comes from the fact he's old. If he was young man hardly anyone would respect him as much on these forums. Edmure's a much better man, he welcomed the people into Riverrun showing he cares for them unlike damn near every other lord we've seen past the caring about the taxes staying the same. Plus Edmund defeated Tywin! Now who else has done that?

[LordBloodraven]

To me the Blackfish who's main support comes from the fact he's old. If he was young man hardly anyone would respect him as much on these forums. Edmure's a much better man, he welcomed the people into Riverrun showing he cares for them unlike damn near every other lord we've seen past the caring about the taxes staying the same. Plus Edmund defeated Tywin! Now who else has done that?

Tactical victory but strategical failure. It wasn't a "victory", Edmure prevented him from crossing because "if Tywin Lannister thinks that he can cross [his] lands unblooded" he's completely delusional. It's similar to Tywin's "victory" against Roose Bolton in AGOT, no strategical achievement.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Winterfell is burning, if any unborn potential child of Robb's is as dangerous or even more dangerous to the iron throne than Robb himself then there is no way that the Lannisters will abandon their siege of Riverrun.

The Blackfish can't hold out indefinitely and there was no hope of relief in AFFC.

Well, I don't know if there is a child or not, but I'd think not.

BF had food for two years. And the Lannister/Freys didn't, since they burned the Riverlands.

BF hoped that:

a) The Lannister continued to lose men by the minute- not unreasonable by any means, and in fact even in the North it was clear that this was happening. To expect them to gain men would be more unreasonable.

b- They continued to be bled by the BWB- This was actually working better than anyone might have been expecting with Lady Stoneheart.

c) That the Lannisters face extreme difficulties, possible loss of allies and men with Tywin's death- not unreasonable, and Cersei made an even worse job than anyone could have expected. And later Varys, of course.

d) That other threats force them to be forced to use their main power elsewhere- He knew of Stannis, Ironborn and Wildlings as well. It's probably impossible he knew of Dany, Aegon and the Faith, but they did become threats, and any of them would cause Lannisters to lose a massive amount of power.

e) That winter and lack of food caused massive losses (whether by deaths or simply soldiers going back home/turning brigand, etc) most of the Lannister/Frey forces- That was certain to happen.

f) That they are able to resist the storming of Riverrun- That's the BIG IF, since we don't know how many men he has in comparison to the Lannister/Freys, but we heard a 10:1 difference in favor of the besiegers be a pretty good number for the besieged, so even if it is 20/1 there is a decent chance of survival.

Apart from f, they all factors at his side. And time was working for him. Lannister hope would be to storm it and finish it quickly, but a failed storming of Riverrun- one of the toughest castles to do it, we hear no reports of it being done successfully, and GRRM probably would have included this information- would make morale on their side even lower.

People accusing the BF of being wrong in resisting are simply assuming that the storming would be undeniably successful and/or a siege would have certain Lannister victory, but I don't see the latter, and I think we have unsufficient information on the former at best.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Tactical victory but strategical failure. It wasn't a "victory", Edmure prevented him from crossing because "if Tywin Lannister thinks that he can cross [his] lands unblooded" he's completely delusional. It's similar to Tywin's "victory" against Roose Bolton in AGOT, no strategical achievement.

I have to agree with this. Tywin's main goal was to reach Robb and his main force, not (at the moment) take Riverrun. If he had decided to seriously stop moving, find or build a place to cross, and set his entire force to storming Riverrun, I think we would have had another mark in the "epic fail" column for Edmure.

[Talleyrand]

I have to agree with this. Tywin's main goal was to reach Robb and his main force, not (at the moment) take Riverrun. If he had decided to seriously stop moving, find or build a place to cross, and set his entire force to storming Riverrun, I think we would have had another mark in the "epic fail" column for Edmure.

How? To take Riverrun, Tywin is still required to cross the fords. So how is he now achieving what he was failing to do beforehand simply because he has a new target?

[Verboten]

Why is Storm's End so different from Riverrun?

Riverrun is described as a very strong castle surrounded by THREE rivers. With traps in the moats. How do you get siege engines up to the walls when they're surrounded by water like that? Not easily.

(is that more on topic? ;-)

Storms End has never been taken. Ever. Impossible is very, very different from 'not easily'. And while the rivers have an admitted advantage in that they provide free water an a modecum of protection to those inside, these are not going to protect you from a vastly superior army and a fresh batch of corpses just waiting to be dumped in the river upstream from your position, where they will conveniently be trapped by your porticullis. Granted this is not as effective as poisoning all the wells but sickness in the water will provide a huge blow to the Blackfish, especially considering the fact that there are probably no wells in Riverrun.

[Tini]

We don't know if there are wells or cisterns in Riverrun. I would expect that they exist because being dependent on a river that may get contaminated by your enemies is a weakness - one that would have been exploited in wars past.

If the Lannisters poisoned the river, they would have to make sure that all their forces surrounding Riverrun are supplied with fresh water, as well as with food. Downstream, peasants and lifestock would be hit by the contaminated water as well. Disease would spread if they left corpses stuck in the portcullis. And that would hit the Lannister host at least as much as the defenders.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

We don't know if there are wells or cisterns in Riverrun. I would expect that they exist because being dependent on a river that may get contaminated by your enemies is a weakness - one that would have been exploited in wars past.

If the Lannisters poisoned the river, they would have to make sure that all their forces surrounding Riverrun are supplied with fresh water, as well as with food. Downstream, peasants and lifestock would be hit by the contaminated water as well. Disease would spread if they left corpses stuck in the portcullis. And that would hit the Lannister host at least as much as the defenders.

This.

[Verboten]

We don't know if there are wells or cisterns in Riverrun. I would expect that they exist because being dependent on a river that may get contaminated by your enemies is a weakness - one that would have been exploited in wars past.

If the Lannisters poisoned the river, they would have to make sure that all their forces surrounding Riverrun are supplied with fresh water, as well as with food. Downstream, peasants and lifestock would be hit by the contaminated water as well. Disease would spread if they left corpses stuck in the portcullis. And that would hit the Lannister host at least as much as the defenders.

I was objecting to the way everyone keeps comparing Riverrun to Storm's End. They just aren't the same, especially if you put a little thought into it. For one thing having three rivers surrounding a chunk of land is a really big disadvantage in some ways, with poisoning the water being the first thing I thought of. Not to mention that the Blackfish was wrong when he thought that the Lannisters would actually play by his pathetic rules and not storm the place with everything they had.

[voodooqueen126]

Who said anything about surrendering Jeyne and her theoretical child to the Lannisters? Keeping them in Riverrun however guarantees that they will fall into Lannister hands unless the Blackfish is planning a Masada style defence.

you are aware that the people at Masada all died?

Though the people at Masada, were like the Blackfish, fighting complete monsters.

[Lummel]

Yes I was, which is why I wrote what you have quoted. The Blackfish is looking for suicide by Lannister for him and his followers.

[voodooqueen126]

Yes I was, which is why I wrote what you have quoted. The Blackfish is looking for suicide by Lannister for him and his followers.

If Queen Jeyne had been pregnant then a Masada style defense would've been inappropriate, since their was still hope for the cause if she was sent to the Free Cities like Daenerys was.

Since Queen Jeyne wasn't pregnant, then a Masada style defence was appropriate in some ways: Blackfish could've easily figured out that the Westerlings were Lannisters patsies who essentially destroyed Robb's kingdom by seducing Robb. Thus a Masada style defence prevents the Westerlings from benefitting from their betrayal of Robb.