the silent speaker Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 3) Again is your interpretation a literal flower growing out of the wall? I'm sure R+L=J fanatics would want an alternative explanation as to why they're wrong.What's wrong with a figurative flower growing into a figurative wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 What's wrong with a figurative flower growing into a figurative wall?Nothing. It still hasn't been explained why people are fanatics for thinking that it refers to Jon though.Anyways, to be on topic I don't think Aegon is Ashara's son. The only way her child would look like that is if she had it with a Targ. Arthur wouldn't still be so close to Rhaegar if he dishonored his sister. Aerys probably didn't rape her because it was said that he used to get aroused by burning people which didn't happen at Harrenhal. I don't see why she would mourn him anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Anyways, to be on topic I don't think Aegon is Ashara's son. The only way her child would look like that is if she had it with a Targ. Arthur wouldn't still be so close to Rhaegar if he dishonored his sister. Aerys probably didn't rape her because it was said that he used to get aroused by burning people which didn't happen at Harrenhal. I don't see why she would mourn him anyway.Because Arthur and Rhaegar were such good friends, it is likely that Arthur knew all about Rhaegar's PtwP prophecy and his need for a third child. If Rhaegar planned on marrying Ashara once he was king and if Arthur believed the PtwP prophecy too, it is possible that he didn't see a relationship between Ashara and Rhaegar as a dishonour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Because Arthur and Rhaegar were such good friends, it is likely that Arthur knew all about Rhaegar's PtwP prophecy and his need for a third child. If Rhaegar planned on marrying Ashara once he was king and if Arthur believed the PtwP prophecy too, it is possible that he didn't see a relationship between Ashara and Rhaegar as a dishonour.That would leave him with 3 wives. Why not just marry her already like he probably did with Lyanna? I don't see that not putting a strain on their relationship. We know that Arthur was loyal to his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron the Always-Late Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Rhaegar's orders would have expired when he died. I take the "vow" to be the general one where the Kingsguard swears to protect the monarch in general and not That Guy in particular. If Rhaegar had made them swear a vow to protect Lyanna and/or Jon that was separate from the generic Kingsguard vow, with Rhaegar's death (and Aerys' and Aegon's), it would have been superseded by their overarching vow to protect the monarch in general (who at that time should have been Viserys). That's why I don't believe any theory that suggests that the three Kingsguard were at the Tower just because of an order Rhaegar gave. That might have been their original purpose for being there, but at the time Ned found them, they should have been there protecting the monarch, not because Rhaegar had told them to stay.There are examples of people abandoning orders made by previously-living-but-now-dead people, like Cersei tearing up Roberts, but at the same it goes both ways.The "honorable" thing to do, some could argue is to hold true to the orders, despite current fluctuations in political grounds, like Beric Dondarrion following out Ned's and indirectly Robert's orders long after both had been disposed of, for the sake of the man who they were loyal to, not just whoever is still breathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 That would leave him with 3 wives. Why not just marry her already like he probably did with Lyanna? I don't see that not putting a strain on their relationship. We know that Arthur was loyal to his death.Maybe he did marry her. Maybe he did have three wives. Or maybe he didn't marry Lyanna after all but only Elia and Ashara. Who knows?If Arthur was as loyal as he was supposed to have been, surely he could put aside any personal resentment he might have held towards Rhaegar and still have been a good, honourable and loyal member of the KG. It isn't the KG job to judge the royal family after all, only to guard them. People put aside their personal biases all the time to get on with their job and it is perfectly possible to like someone even though you don't like every thing they do. And it is possible that Arthur was worried that the end of the world was nigh and that a baby between Ashara and Rhaegar was necessary to save the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Maybe he did marry her. Maybe he did have three wives. Or maybe he didn't marry Lyanna after all but only Elia and Ashara. Who knows?If Arthur was as loyal as he was supposed to have been, surely he could put aside any personal resentment he might have held towards Rhaegar and still have been a good, honourable and loyal member of the KG. It isn't the KG job to judge the royal family after all, only to guard them. People put aside their personal biases all the time to get on with their job and it is perfectly possible to like someone even though you don't like every thing they do. And it is possible that Arthur was worried that the end of the world was nigh and that a baby between Ashara and Rhaegar was necessary to save the world.How would Ashara have been dishonored in this scenario?Arthur wasn't only a loyal member of the KG. He went beyond that as Rhaegar's closest friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 How would Ashara have been dishonored in this scenario?Arthur wasn't only a loyal member of the KG. He went beyond that as Rhaegar's closest friend.She wouldn't have, I only mentioned being or not being dishonoured because you mentioned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 She wouldn't have, I only mentioned being or not being dishonoured because you mentioned it.We know that she was dishonored by someone. Whether she really killed herself or not she had to have a reason for disappearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 We know that she was dishonored by someone. Whether she really killed herself or not she had to have a reason for disappearing.We know that Barristan Selmy believes that she was dishonoured by someone. From this we can conculde that she had a sexual relationship with someone. But whether Ashara, Arthur or anyone else judges this relationship as 'dishonour' is anyone's guess. Selmy is biased as he is in love with Ashara, so likely he judges her relationship with someone else more harshly than another person might judge it.She disappeared to go into exile to look after Aegon but the rest of the world believes she killed herself shortly after Ned Stark told her that Arthur had died. It might be a flimsy excuse, but everyone seems to have bought it. No one seems to think that she died because her lover Rhaegar had died or because her son Aegon had been killed or because her stillborn daughter had died or because Ned had taken off with their son Jon. No one seems to think that she was dishonoured or in a relationship with anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 We know that Barristan Selmy believes that she was dishonoured by someone. From this we can conculde that she had a sexual relationship with someone. But whether Ashara, Arthur or anyone else judges this relationship as 'dishonour' is anyone's guess. Selmy is biased as he is in love with Ashara, so likely he judges her relationship with someone else more harshly than another person might judge it.She disappeared to go into exile to look after Aegon but the rest of the world believes she killed herself shortly after Ned Stark told her that Arthur had died. It might be a flimsy excuse, but everyone seems to have bought it. No one seems to think that she died because her lover Rhaegar had died or because her son Aegon had been killed or because her stillborn daughter had died or because Ned had taken off with their son Jon. No one seems to think that she was dishonoured or in a relationship with anyone.If she slept with someone and married him how can that be misconstrued as dishonor? I'm sure Arthur was around Barriston before Rhaegar decided to run off with Lyanna so he could have found out about the marriage. & I remember Cersei thinking that Ned stole his son Jon from Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 If she slept with someone and married him how can that be misconstrued as dishonor? I'm sure Arthur was around Barriston before Rhaegar decided to run off with Lyanna so he could have found out about the marriage. & I remember Cersei thinking that Ned stole his son Jon from Ashara.Sorry, I feel that we are talking at cross purposes here.The only person who thought that Ashara was dishonoured was Barristan. If Ashara and Rhaegar were married, then I guess he didn't know about it. Or if he did know about it, then maybe he thought that being a second wife was an insult to Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Sorry, I feel that we are talking at cross purposes here.The only person who thought that Ashara was dishonoured was Barristan. If Ashara and Rhaegar were married, then I guess he didn't know about it. Or if he did know about it, then maybe he thought that being a second wife was an insult to Ashara.& Cersei although she doesn't have her information right. The story that Ashara's family has been telling little Ned is that she was in love with Eddard so they also didn't know. All the info that we have to me points to her having sex with someone outside of marriage. It just might not have been Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 & Cersei although she doesn't have her information right. The story that Ashara's family has been telling little Ned is that she was in love with Eddard so they also didn't know. All the info that we have to me points to her having sex with someone outside of marriage. It just might not have been Ned.Sorry, I think I have fallen down a rabbit's hole.I jumped into this discussion because you said that Aegon couldn't be Ashara's son. One of the reasons you gave was that if Rhaegar was sleeping with Ashara, then Arthur wouldn't be friends with him any more. I pointed out that it is possible for Rheagar and Arthur to still be friends even if Rhaegar was sleeping with Arthur's sister.That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Sorry, I think I have fallen down a rabbit's hole.I jumped into this discussion because you said that Aegon couldn't be Ashara's son. One of the reasons you gave was that if Rhaegar was sleeping with Ashara, then Arthur wouldn't be friends with him any more. I pointed out that it is possible for Rheagar and Arthur to still be friends even if Rhaegar was sleeping with Arthur's sister.That is all.My original point was that he would not still be best friends with a guy who dishonored his sister and then went off to impregnate and marry someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 My original point was that he would not still be best friends with a guy who dishonored his sister and then went off to impregnate and marry someone else.And my original point was that Arthur may not have perceived Ashara and Rhaegar's relationship to be dishonourable in the first place. He may have understood Rhaegar's need to have a third child with Lyanna as beng important to the prophecy and therefore didn't take offence at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 And my original point was that Arthur may not have perceived Ashara and Rhaegar's relationship to be dishonourable in the first place. He may have understood Rhaegar's need to have a third child with Lyanna as beng important to the prophecy and therefore didn't take offence at it.A female having a bastard for the most part isn't taken as well as men having bastards are. If we compare Lysa vs. Ned. The Tullys were from a great house so they had more marriage options than the Daynes would. Even if he believed in the prophecy that doesn't mean he would be okay with Rhaegar using his sister especially if he finds love with another woman afterwards.Rhaegar didn't decide that he needed another child until after Aegon was born which was after Harrenhal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Even if he believed in the prophecy that doesn't mean he would be okay with Rhaegar using his sister especially if he finds love with another woman afterwards.But we DON'T KNOW! This is all just pie-in-the-sky speculation. We don't even know that Ashara and Rhaegar did have an affair, it is a fairly unpopular theory anyway. But I just don't think you can rule it out based on anything that Arthur did or didn't do. We don't know him well enough to judge and we don't know what he knew or didn't know. It is impossible to say one way or the other and it isn't something you can use as conclusive proof against an affair between Ashara and Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I agree, but there is far more specific evidence that Jon is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's child, and is legitimate. A careful analysis of the conversation with the King's Guard at the Tower of Joy indicates that they believe that the heir to the throne is under their protection. Further, we have the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice filling the air with sweetness in Daenerys' vision at the House of the Undead. Unlikely that Jon is anything but heir, and that it is yet to be confirmed.I would also point to the fact that in the Crypts of Winterfell, we are told that only the Lords and Kings got statues, (and certainly not women).Rickard got one of course, as well as his Heir, Brandon.By Lyanna had one too.Was it because Ned loved her so?Thats part of it I'm sure.But... could it have been also that she was a Stark who now outranked the Lords of Winterfell, and was on par with the old Kings...as a Princess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 But we DON'T KNOW! This is all just pie-in-the-sky speculation. We don't even know that Ashara and Rhaegar did have an affair, it is a fairly unpopular theory anyway. But I just don't think you can rule it out based on anything that Arthur did or didn't do. We don't know him well enough to judge and we don't know what he knew or didn't know. It is impossible to say one way or the other and it isn't something you can use as conclusive proof against an affair between Ashara and Rhaegar.I think the timeline alone tells us. By the time he decided that he needed another child he had already met Lyanna and crowned her the queen of love and beauty. There would be no need to go to Ashara.We do know that Arthur remained loyal to Rhaegar since he died at the TOJ. There's no reason to think that Rhaegar would have done something that could potentially breach their friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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