3 babies, only 1 mother

[MtnLion]

As I recall, it was in 287-288 AL that Jon Connington was given charge of Young Griff. BTW, if someone was born in 282, they would be 18 in DwD, as that occurs in 300AL. I fear that Young Griff may prove to be a year or two younger, though.

[Silmarien]

Jon Connington definitely did not see YG until he was around 5, which is more than enough time for YG to be a fake (and actually be a year or two younger than Aegon would be).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As I recall, it was in 287-288 AL that Jon Connington was given charge of Young Griff. BTW, if someone was born in 282, they would be 18 in DwD, as that occurs in 300AL. I fear that Young Griff may prove to be a year or two younger, though.

This is actually Tyrion's point — he thinks Young Griff is too young to the real. Others have mentioned that this is a red herring and Tyrion's age guesses are always off, but that's like a misdirection within a misdirection and makes my head hurt.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also, the HoTU vision makes no sense, if Aegon wasn't born by the time the Tourney of Harrenhal took place.

Are you claiming he crowned Lyanna for a different reason other than just to court her? (If you are trying to say that Rhaegar gave her the crown knowing she was the KotLT, and deserved to WIN the tourney, then I'll buy that).

The vision goes like this: Aegon is a newborn, Elia is in her bed. By this time, the maesters have told the couple Elia cannot bear more children due to her bad health. Rhaegar looks at Dany and says "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads."

Then Rhaegar would know he had to go off and find the mother of his 3rd child, whom he thought would be Visenya.

Did he just think "OH! That hot chick I met at the Tourney....she's a Stark, which equals Ice! DUH! Now, I'm off to kidnap her!" ???

You're automatically assuming that the Harrenhal tourney dovetailed immediately into Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, and it didn't.

There's also a theory that Rhaegar discovered that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and that's how they met and began a rapport, before actually eloping. Rhaegar naming her queen and loving beauty wasn't necessarily just about showing affection, but also clandestinely tipping his hat to her because she wasn't able to gain public recognition for being the KotLT.

In any case, I stick by my timeline. Harrenhal was 281, Aegon wasn't born until 282.

[Ygritte Lady Snow]

Someone came to me with the idea that Ned Stark could have had a bastard with Ashara Dayne indeed. This is a good theory a friend told me...

If Ashara had a child with Ned then it would be possible that Ned had switched the babies when Lyanna asked him to save Jon.

If the enemies knew that she had a baby then they'd be wondering who took this child and where? That wouldn't be convenient for Ned's plans so he put his own child in Jon's place to be murdered. That could explain why Ashara had comitted suicide: she couldn't bear the pain of having her son murdered.

It's not that crazy if we think about Gilly's baby and Mance's heir in AFFC. Jon did the same thing. He protected the son of a king by using a peasant child as a substitute,

That would end all of the complaints on Ned being 100% honored, with no mistakes and sins.

So

1. The baby that Ned brings home and calls Jon Snow. (son of R & L)

2 - The baby that Gregory Clegane murders. (Aegon)

3. The baby that Viserys (?) delivers to Jon Connington and who grows up to be "Young Griff"/Aegon (I don't believe this child ever existed. I think he's fake).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Someone came to me with the idea that Ned Stark could have had a bastard with Ashara Dayne indeed.

My only hang-up about a Ned/Ashara baby is, when would they have had this baby? As far as we know, the only time that they're together is at Harrenhal and while it's possible that Ashara could have gotten pregnant there, it's entirely possible that Ned isn't the father (Barristan mentions her "turning to Stark" after being dishonored, but never says outright that it was a Stark who dishonored her), and that child would be far too old to double as a newborn at the Tower of Joy.

If the enemies knew that she had a baby then they'd be wondering who took this child and where? That wouldn't be convenient for Ned's plans so he put his own child in Jon's place to be murdered. That could explain why Ashara had comitted suicide: she couldn't bear the pain of having her son murdered.

What? No babies were murdered at the Tower of Joy. Did you really mean in Aegon's place to be murdered? In that case, why sub in a highborn bastard to be murdered when the city is crawling with peasant babies?

[Ygritte Lady Snow]

My only hang-up about a Ned/Ashara baby is, when would they have had this baby? As far as we know, the only time that they're together is at Harrenhal and while it's possible that Ashara could have gotten pregnant there, it's entirely possible that Ned isn't the father (Barristan mentions her "turning to Stark" after being dishonored, but never says outright that it was a Stark who dishonored her), and that child would be far too old to double as a newborn at the Tower of Joy.

What? No babies were murdered at the Tower of Joy. Did you really mean in Aegon's place to be murdered? In that case, why sub in a highborn bastard to be murdered when the city is crawling with peasant babies?

That's just a theory, but it's based on how Ashara is linked to Ned. I see no reason why she and Wylla would be linked to Ned if there wasn't a plot involving those characters. At some point, he had an affair with someone (maybe one of them, maybe both) and it turned to be convenient when he had to carry a baby to Winterfell. Otherwise, that would be suspiscious.

As for your second complaint...well, they were in the middle of a war. He had no idea his sister got pregnant and had just given birth to a child when he arrived. The whole situation was a mess so it makes sense to me he'd act quickly. Where would he find a baby the same size and appearance in time to switch the babies before they came to kill the child? The youngest child he knew was his own. If his own child was too old to convince, then the whole Jon plan would be ruined. It's highly unlinkley that no one knew Lyanna was pragnant. I'm not sayin' Ned's son was murdered but he was supposed to be. If else, why was Lyanna so desperate?

When Jon took the decision to switch the babies I felt that as a parallel to his own story. This theory may be stupid but the parallel is there and somehow that's connected to Jon's own story. Just my opinion :D

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I don't know... Ned leaving his own son as an expendable decoy? That seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of character for Eddard Stark.

ETA: On the comparison with Jon: I always figured that if Stannis or Mel started demanding for "Mance's son" (i.e. Monster) to be burned, Jon would simply say "Oh, but that's not him" and give them his best troll face.

[Silmarien]

You're automatically assuming that the Harrenhal tourney dovetailed immediately into Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, and it didn't.

There's also a theory that Rhaegar discovered that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and that's how they met and began a rapport, before actually eloping. Rhaegar naming her queen and loving beauty wasn't necessarily just about showing affection, but also clandestinely tipping his hat to her because she wasn't able to gain public recognition for being the KotLT.

In any case, I stick by my timeline. Harrenhal was 281, Aegon wasn't born until 282.

Nah, I was agreeing with you, that Harrenhal was not immediately followed by Lyanna being kidnapped (or else the HoTU vision makes no sense). I already concede that Aegon was not born until after Harrenhal. We're on the same page. :-)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know... Ned leaving his own son as an expendable decoy? That seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of character for Eddard Stark.

Agreed. I don't think he'd do it.

That's just a theory, but it's based on how Ashara is linked to Ned. I see no reason why she and Wylla would be linked to Ned if there wasn't a plot involving those characters. At some point, he had an affair with someone (maybe one of them, maybe both) and it turned to be convenient when he had to carry a baby to Winterfell. Otherwise, that would be suspiscious.

Wylla was probably Lyanna's midwife and wet nurse when she gave birth, and she and Ned agreed to say publicly that she was Jon's mother. As for Ashara, given her brother and servant's role in all of this, I think that she probably knew the truth about it and it's also possible that her suicide was a way to cover up this knowledge. I think her name was allowed to remain as "candidate" for Jon's mother so that if he grew up to have some Targ features (like purple eyes and the silvery hair that some male Daynes apparently have), people would think he'd inherited them from a Dayne mother, not a Targ father. Ashara's "suicide" in that case would explain why Ned took the baby instead of leaving him with his "mother."

As for your second complaint...well, they were in the middle of a war. He had no idea his sister got pregnant and had just given birth to a child when he arrived. The whole situation was a mess so it makes sense to me he'd act quickly. Where would he find a baby the same size and appearance in time to switch the babies before they came to kill the child? The youngest child he knew was his own. If his own child was too old to convince, then the whole Jon plan would be ruined. It's highly unlinkley that no one knew Lyanna was pragnant. I'm not sayin' Ned's son was murdered but he was supposed to be. If else, why was Lyanna so desperate?

I'm sorry, I'm still not sure what you're talking about. No children were killed at the Tower of Joy, so what are you saying about a baby switch? It's not like Aegon/"Aegon," where another baby would have died in place of Aegon if he'd been switched. If Jon's a switch (is that what you're saying), then where's the other kid? We have no reason to believe that Ned was involved in any baby-switching plot, ever, whether it was his own son or someone else's.

[Ygritte Lady Snow]

I'm sorry, I'm still not sure what you're talking about. No children were killed at the Tower of Joy, so what are you saying about a baby switch? It's not like Aegon/"Aegon," where another baby would have died in place of Aegon if he'd been switched. If Jon's a switch (is that what you're saying), then where's the other kid? We have no reason to believe that Ned was involved in any baby-switching plot, ever, whether it was his own son or someone else's.

No children were killed as far as we know from the books. Taking things this way, we can assume there WERE no children there and the whole L+R=J thing is nonsense. It's not written that a child was murdered as it's not written that a woman gave birth to a child there. We are assuming this happened for the clues GRRM spread here and there.

Whether or not Ashara's baby was Ned's, he may have used this child in the switch and his/her son may still be alive. Or the death wasn't mentioned, which is possible.

I can't see Ned as this unidmensional character, without any regrets and mistakes. Even Jon, who's honored and reasonable most of the time, still has his "dark side". Ned's part on the R+L=J theory dosn't fit me mostly because it makes Ned look like a super hero. There's no ambiguity. No complexity. The only time he lied and went out of his principles it was to save a little baby. It's too good to be true.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No children were killed as far as we know from the books. Taking things this way, we can assume there WERE no children there and the whole L+R=J thing is nonsense. It's not written that a child was murdered as it's not written that a woman gave birth to a child there. We are assuming this happened for the clues GRRM spread here and there.

Whether or not Ashara's baby was Ned's, he may have used this child in the switch and his/her son may still be alive. Or the death wasn't mentioned, which is possible.

I can't see Ned as this unidmensional character, without any regrets and mistakes. Even Jon, who's honored and reasonable most of the time, still has his "dark side". Ned's part on the R+L=J theory dosn't fit me mostly because it makes Ned look like a super hero. There's no ambiguity. No complexity. The only time he lied and went out of his principles it was to save a little baby. It's too good to be true.

So because I think the baby-switch-at-the-Tower-of-Joy thing is complete bunk, I also have to discount the fact that Jon was born there? It's either two babies, or no babies? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We're not TOLD that there was a child there, but there's heavy evidence in the book that suggests that. There's no evidence, anywhere, that would point to a baby switch at the Tower. What would the logistics of that even be? Ned would have had to have known that he'd find a baby at the Tower when he arrived, and he didn't. He didn't have a child with him when he arrived, and there would be no reason to "send for" a fake baby when he could have just taken Jon with him when he left, which is apparently what happened. No one else knew what was going on down there so, at that time, a switch would have been completely unnecessary.

What do you mean there's no complexity or ambiguity in Ned's character? The guy lied to his best friend and king by taking Jon in, committing, basically, treason, and working to protect a scion of the family that he fought a war to overthrow. Is that not complex?

[Ygritte Lady Snow]

That would be complex in LOTR, but not in ASOIF. As much as I love the character, I can't get this classic hero type who only committs treason for the good of somebody else (a child and dying sister in the case). Robert was a pig and it's mentioned many times how different he was at the time of his death from the guy he was at his young age. Eddard didn't follow the bureaucracy of his time which is enough for a hero, but little for a series that's been comitted with something more...with human beings and their inumerous nuances. There's no character complexity on saving a child from a cruel and irrational king. i expect more than that from GRRM and I think he's capable of surprising us.

After all, no one has any answer yet and the purpose here is to discuss possibilities. Some theories are highly probable and others very unlikely, but none of them is impossible. I never thought that Bowen Marsh 'd stab Jon Snow when I was reading AFFC. Perhaps we learn something new about Ned when the whole mother cliffhanger comes to light.

It's not my theory. I'd never think about that myself, but I strongly hope that whenever the answer about Jon's mother is given, all the people involved will have their part very well explained in the story. Both Ashara and Wylla too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's no character complexity on saving a child from a cruel and irrational king.

It's not just a "cruel and irrational king." It's Ned's best friend and the guy for whom he helped fight a war for almost a year. He risked his life and lost almost his entire family for Robert's cause and to overthrow the Targaryens, and here he turns around and, out of love for his sister, commits treason against said best friend and takes in a child of the family that, up to this point, he'd actively been working to destroy. The act plagues him with guilt for a decade and a half after he does it. That's not complex or nuanced? What would Ned have had to do in order to be "complex" to you?

Too often people equate "complex" with "potential evil asshole" or "morally bankrupt." It's possible to be a fundamentally decent person and still have some level of complexity.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

We know that at the end of Robert's Rebellion, there were three babies of dubious identity.

1. The baby that Ned brings home and calls Jon Snow.

2. The baby that Gregory Clegane murders.

3. The baby that Viserys (?) delivers to Jon Connington and who grows up to be "Young Griff"/Aegon

We only have one mother for those three babies. Princess Elia is probably the mother of baby #2 or baby #3.

We have various nominees for the other two mothers.

Ashara Dayne has been rumored to be the mother of baby #1. There were rumors that she and Ned Stark were in love. Barristan Selmy tells us that she had been "dishonored" and had a daughter (conveniently) die stillborn. She then supposedly commits suicide.

Lyanna Stark dies in a "bed of blood" after supposedly being repeatedly "raped" at Rhaegar's Tower of Joy, although there is plenty of evidence that the two were actually in love, and that Rhaegar was looking to produce a third head for the dragon.

"Septa Lemore," whoever the heck she is, with the distinct possibility that she is either the former or latter possible mother. Probably the former. She could be the mother of any of the three.

Various commoner women in the cases of #1 and #2, none of whom seem to be asking around regarding the whereabouts of their babies.

Am I missing anyone?

O.K., crackpot theory time...

What if Ned is a lot smarter than any of us or any of the characters in the books suspect? What if he and Ashara pulled off the baby switch to end all baby switches? What if his and Ashara's son is "Aegon?" And they somehow pulled it off without Varys knowing about it?

How does Game of Thrones read if Ned knows that Varys is eventually going to try to install Ned's bastard son on the throne? With "Septa Lemore" being there the whole time to eventually tell "Aegon" who he is and what really happened.

Maybe that makes Jon the "real" Aegon or maybe he's just the commoner's son who was destined to be butchered. Maybe Lyanna's son was the one butchered by Clegane. That would certainly explain some of Ned's guilt.

Anyone want to try to out crackpot my crackpot?

I do like this theory (i.e. Aegon is actually Ned & Ashara's son), so don't get me wrong, but for the life of me, I can't reconcile Ned Stark outsmarting Varys (see "Stupid Ned Stark Meme").

[Silmarien]

If Ned and Varys were working together, why the whole "show" of Varys waiting till after Ned convinces Robert not to fight in the melee to come talk to him. And why is he discussing him with Illyrio in the dungeons (ie, "The last Hand died, why not this one?" paraphrase)???

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Ned and Varys were working together, why the whole "show" of Varys waiting till after Ned convinces Robert not to fight in the melee to come talk to him. And why is he discussing him with Illyrio in the dungeons (ie, "The last Hand died, why not this one?" paraphrase)???

Well that, and the dialogue in the dungeon between the two of them also shows that there's really no collusion going on here.

[uncle fester]

I do not see any other remotely logical explanation for Jon other than he is the son of Rheagar and Lyanna. Ned's reaction to Robert when eating lunch on the Kingsroad, Robert states that he will kill every Targaryen he can get his hands on due to what he believes to be Lyanna's death by repeated rape by Rheagar. Ned seems frightened and believed him. He has clearly been protecting his nephew, Jon while also protecting his friendship with Robert. If Jon is the prince who was promised and not a bastard, then Rheagar must have taken lawfully Lyanna as a second wife.

I know the show cannot be considered 100% cannon but the writers do have a heads up on where GRRM is going with the books and it is highly significant that immediately after that conversation, the camera cuts to a shot of Jon's face.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know the show cannot be considered 100% cannon but the writers do have a heads up on where GRRM is going with the books and it is highly significant that immediately after that conversation, the camera cuts to a shot of Jon's face.

Good catch. I've been meaning to watch the Kingsroad episode again, you just gave me a reason.

[Alia of the knife]

I do like this theory (i.e. Aegon is actually Ned & Ashara's son), so don't get me wrong, but for the life of me, I can't reconcile Ned Stark outsmarting Varys (see "Stupid Ned Stark Meme").

But, if Ned did outsmart Varys, that would be soooooooooo priceless.